Zeraph

I wasn't sure where to post this... I have nothing against gays, personally I think I may be bisexual anyway.

But, what's with the "gay voice"? You know what I mean? Are they making it up? So other gays can identify them (if so I recommend signet rings that when pressed together can transform them by saying "The form of....a dildo!)

Or where they born that way and being gay has a stronger correlation to making someone sound feminine?

Or shit, here's a head spinner. What if our voice has been unconsciously crafted by our own self image? So in a parallel world I might sound feminine or like darth vader. I've always thought of voice as unique. But maybe not...

Willravel

I think of it as being not too dissimilar from a culturally-linked accent. I'm not really an expert, though. If there are any TFPers that speak in this way, I'd be curious to get their take on the way of speaking.

bagatelle

I would also say it's an accent. I'm curious to know too, does anyone here know they change their voice.

When I think about the newsreaders and their voice, they have trained it and even when they speak off-duty, I don't think they can quite get back to what their sound was like before the training.

My friend started suffering from losing her voice before she hit 40. The doctors discovered she has some kind of vocal cords atrophy, similar thing happens when we get old and our voice changes to that old woman voice. She gets regularly botox shots on her vocal cords to avoid this.

Would probably not be safe to assume, gay voice is caused by a physical factor.

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dlish

...and here i thought they all had perpetual blocked noses.[/sarcasm]

im just trying to get my head around the 'accent' theory. i speak with an aussie accent with a slight 'ethnic twinge' (for those that can pick it up).

If i also happen to be gay, would my voice be any different unless i put on an act? i think not. interesting theories though. i'd like to see where this thread leads to and other opinions.

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Plan9

The only way this thread could possibly be more politically incorrect is if it featured college girls in thongs drinking Miller Lite and a couple of pictures of Blackwater "mercenaries" putting babies on spikes while a monster truck driven by Uncle Sam crushes a mosque full of pregnant Jew lesbians.

That said... homosexual males using a more effeminate way of talking isn't any different than shaka-throwing surfers calling each other "Brah!" or I-identity-as-a-gangsta-thug African-Americans in the ghetto going "Dawg!" It's simply an identifiable dialect used by a specific social subculture.

That subculture would be "flaming gay" homosexuals. A good number of homosexual males can't be identified by any external traits or behaviors.

Unless you look at their fingernails.

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bagatelle

Of course there are, and plenty. However there are certain people, you can say you recognize as gay, who imo like Zeraph suggests tend to speak in a certain more feminine manner.

Aussie is dialect, I meant accent.

There's also accent, when some adults talk to small children.

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kramus

There are real indications that homosexuality is something folks are born with. Our sexuality sits on a spectrum, as does many other behaviours we have that range from no-so-much to very-much-indeed (sexually we measure with the famous Kinsey Scale that rates our sexual history or episodes of sexual behaviour and inclination). The sub-set (for want of a better word) of gays who exhibit the effeminate "gay" voice often share other traits as well.

There is a way of walking and moving, an over-all physicality that has feminine traits. I think this is where the term "gaydar" comes in. People read the non-verbal cues and make judgements all the time. A genetic male sometimes demonstrates femininity in his way of running, moving, speaking or gesturing. There is perceived disparity between the x-chromosone weighting his overt appearance and the more subtle expressions guided by a genetic influence given by what ever it is we inherit that says "I am gay and that's that". BTW I am not too sure this "gay voice" is a litmus test for homosexual inclination. My folks have had a neighbour for many years. He has a large family and is a lovely man, and he has a "faggy voice" along with all the rest of it that sets off my gaydar. But there has never been any actual indication other than his manner of speaking and movement of any homosexual tendencies, so it may just be a coincidence that so many gay people have that collection of tendencies. The flip side is the butch lesbian. I'm not too sure the gruff, robust manner of many gay women is put on. I'm betting it also is part of some as yet not identified genetic component in their makeup.

There are other things less overt physically in many gays that exist as a way of being. Things such as greater empathy, creativity, expressiveness, and some other elements that generally are accepted as being on the feminine end of the human behaviour spectrum.

The "gay voice" is no more an accent or a conscious attribute than a lisp is, or that wonderful thing that James Earl Jones, Morgan Freeman and Kathleen Turner have going on. It's just another manifestation of your inner, born self expressing naturally as you communicate with others.

btw Zeraph - that was one funny visual you gave me with the ring thing you riffed on

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jewels

I'd always suspected the inflections were somehow related to something hormonal.

Apparently there's been some actual research:

The Gay Voice | Why Do Some Gay Men Talk Different | University of Toronto Magazine

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Cimarron29414

I'm just going to take this thread to its logical politically incorrect conclusion:

What everyone really wants to know is whether there is a correlation in gay voice/non-gay voice couples and who's the catcher/pitcher?

Of all of the gay male couples I hang out with, only two of the guys have distinctly effeminate voices 100% of the time. With some of the others, it does turn off and on depending on the situation. I think it is cultural and is more pronounced when actively interacting with others in the lifestyle. When we go to parties at my buddy's house, his behavior is different than in professional situations. That's fine with me.

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Ourcrazymodern?

I've talked 'funny' my whole life, but never on purpose. Trying to change my voice was ineffective.

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Toaster126

I always just assumed it was a combination of culture and imitation, much like any other speech dialect/intonation. It is interesting to see actual studies looking for the answers.

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Zeraph

I disagree Plan9 about it being the same as using slang words. Accents are hard. I've tried all my life to be able to speak in different accents and never came close to doing so. So completely changing your accent is quite a bit different than using some jargon.

Plan9

RE: The "Queen Lisp"

I'd imagine accents aren't hard to pick up if you've immersed yourself in them (like force feeding yourself any "foreign language" [actual foreign language or simply subculture speech style and patterns] because you have no choice [survival] or because it's personally desired as to better assimilate into some stereotypical teenage social clique [see: goths, skaters, preps, hicks, jocks, etc.) or if you've used them your whole goddamn life (i.e. everybody not in the white middle class in Arizona). Note to self: I'll have to ask Dlish how long it took him to pick up his Aussie twang. I'm pretty sure when you're homosexual, you pick up the femme gobble pretty quickly because it's a whole lifestyle and not a hobby. Flaming gays (whatever the PC nomenclature is for these dudes) associate with other flaming gays, right? How do we learn behaviors? Endless repetition and blunt force trauma. In this case we have a group of individuals that essentially teach themselves a new language as a subculture identifier and reinforce constantly by simply opening their mouth (to talk). I reckon it's not a whole lot different than them choosing to wear pastel scarves or do all those crazy wrist acrobatics. That and your personal experience with doing something as left field as "picking up an accent" carries about as much weight here as one of my room-clearing protein farts.

So, in conclusion... yes, being a flaming homo is very much like being an Ebonics-slinging gangsta. The subculture often defines what it is based on raw materials (poor and black vs. openly gay) and uses particular speech patterns ("Fuck that shit, dawg!" vs. "Ooo, be still my panting heart!") and other stylistic identifiers (sagged pants, platinum teeth vs. pastel scarves, girl pants). It's all learned. And while that's just my take on it, I went to college.

/guy that doesn't know shit either

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Redlemon

A good friend of mine has a son, who is now 8 years old. We met him when he was 4. Even then, he could have played the role of "young Carson Kressley" if they did a biopic of Queer Eye for the Straight Guy. He is swishy. His vocal mannerisms are "queeny". It will be interesting to see if he identifies as gay in the future.

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kramus

I totally forgot about something that is so basic and that I've known for so long it just disappears, probably like water disappears in the perception of a fish I guess. My cousin who's about 12 years younger than I is gay. When he was a toddler learning to talk he lisped and fluted and such, and I thought it was his learning to speak phase. When he was a little boy he fluted and swished and had dramatic gestures and intonation and I thought he was a bit different. When he was a young teenager with pink hair and etc. I was damned sure he was gay and also a very cool, neat young guy. Now he's an adult in his 40's who's been out for decades and he has the "gay voice" and it is just him talking.

Huh. I forgot this until I read that post. Whaddya know.

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genuinegirly

Anyone who associates a specific voice with gay people doesn't know enough of them.

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Lindy

I think that an accent is something that you pick up from listening to and speaking with other people in your group or area. Aussie may well be a dialect. I've also heard it called 'Strain. The difference between Austin and Boston in the USA would be an accent. I had a college language professor who said that if you had lived in the same place from birth through high school he could talk with you for a few minutes and guess your home to within fifty miles. He meant within the USA, of course, and would proceed to demonstrate his skill.

The way that adults talk to small children, pets, and perhaps "gay voice" as well would be what I would refer to as an affectation rather than an accent or a dialect.

Lindy

uncle phil

had an anthro professor who said the same thing...

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Redlemon

True. I don't know that many gay men, and much fewer than half of them have the "gay voice" as discussed in this thread. I had also assumed that it was a learned trait. I was a bit thrown by my friend's son, although a single data point does not make a trend.

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Charlatan

Having no official research in this matter, I would suggest that there are (at least) two things happening here.

1) a genetic predisposition to speak a certain way.

2) learned behaviour (i.e. affectations and turns of phrase - e.g. Girlfriend!)

In the scenario I am imagining, a certain gentleman with a genetic disposition for speaking with a feminine lilt, becomes popular in the gay community. His way of speaking (also shared by other with the same genetic disposition -- gay or not) becomes popular within his community. A condition makes a trend.

No idea if this is valid but it makes an interesting scenario.

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bagatelle

Thank you for clearing this up. Dialect is rather regional differences in speech?

I'm not really sure in fact how to describe accent in Finnish. I'm trying to find a way to simplify these concepts for me, since I have no education on these matters. I hope you don't mind my ramblings...

Sounds interesting what is said about affectation. I have noticed in some other forum, while gradually learning English expressions, that I may try to copy the style of a certain poster, if I like their way of using English. I would probably do that with speech too, if I had the chance to talk in English!

I like what Charlatan proposes.

I dislike myself adults exaggerated change in tone (note?) when talking to children. My dislike has nothing to do with the topic, but children sound "childish" and it is for physiological reasons. You can usually tell girls and boys apart.

In most cases we can also tell the gender of an adult, even though it would be toned by a "gay voice", right? So, we pay attention to "gay voice", because it sounds pretencious?

I know via net a gay (bi) man, who says that his voice is high pitched and he's easily mistaken as a woman on the phone. His growth was stumped in childhood after cancer treatments and this messed up his testosterones.

He does not want to see there might be a connection, whereas my mind ponders whether the medical condition "turned" him gay. And his voice might be indicating this.

I know very little about anything, this includes hormones, they seem a complicated issue to me.

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Plan9

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She5

No one is born gay or strait. Whoever believes that believes a whole bunch of lies. That's just a way to justify sexual attraction. I mean, what infant is born thinking, "Ooooh I can't wait to have sex. Ooooh he/she is attractive, I want it!" People have the freedom to choose who they want to be with, who they want to have sex with, and who they want to be. Free will is our natural right (even though our actions are not always right). Why is it any different with sexual orientation? There's a difference between finding someone beautiful and finding someone attractive, just like there's a difference between Love and lust. Lust is like a drug craving that wants to be satisfied all the time, and it'll take anything that stimulates it and it'll make you forget about what Love really is. It's a selfish high. And the whole thing about sexual orientation being justified by hormones is also a load of garbage. Sure, they can make you horny and stuff, but that doesn't mean you have to act on it. That goes for both gay AND strait people. That's why we have so many STD's and kids without parents because people surrender their minds to their stupid hormones. There's a time and place for everything, and it's not different when it comes to sex. And what is "talking gay" and "gay mannerisms"? Nothing but a bunch of stereotypes. Accents and mannerisms are learned for the most part, weather we chose them or not (like the manner in which we chose to carry ourselves).

Charlatan

She5, I know a lot of people are going to probably jump all over your post but before they do, I'd just like to point out that the majority of research into this area suggests that you are wrong. Sexual orientation is mostly pre-determined. Further to this most suggest that orientation is a spectrum rather than a yes/no proposition and as such, those who live in the middle of that spectrum are more likely to be able to choose than someone at either end.

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Strange Famous

I think I spoke about this in a few other places, but this is just my own view and experiences

I was quite homophobic in a childish way up until 16 (like I used to call people "faggot" or "queer" just as a generic insult, had a natural prejudice against homosexuals. I had never known someone who was openly gay or who I knew to be gay at that time. At 16 I punched a guy in a Business Studies class just cos he called me queer. Then I changed school and there was a teacher there I really liked and admired. I found out he was gay, and it made me think of the stupid way I would act and feel quite ashamed of it to think how I must make him feel ashamed and he probably considered me a cunt. I didnt really ever openly talk to him about it, but I started wearing a red "AIDs awareness" ribbon around school and stopped using those terms as simple insults... because it was the only way I could think to express myself as I wasnt big enough to apologise. I dont know if he ever knew he changed my opinions (or made me face up to the stupidity of them), but I think there was some degree of mutual respect between us anyway.

After that Ive had a few mates through football and work that were gay. Also my mother decided to become gay after she divorced my dad. I dont really like to think about my mothers sex life in any case (before or after the change) and as for the mates I had, I just always looked at them as guys I knew, to talk about football with, go for a beer with, etc. I never really had any conversation with them about what it was like to be gay or what they liked to do... it really isnt something I like to think about personally or have any interest in, and I think its their own business and none of mine.

Of the 4 or 5 people I have been friends with who are openly gay, none of them really were radically camp or walked around in hot pants and talked in a funny voice etc. One guy was quite emotional and actually had a real "mothering" instinct... but he wasnt massively camp

My view is that most ordinary gay people arent especially camp, dont necessarily love Madonna and Kylie etc... anymore than most straight guys dont wolf whistle at women in the street and shave their heads and fist fight every Saturday night... it just a stereotype.

Insofar as people do act up to the stereotype, I guess its a kind of defiance.

I dont really know if its a good way to describe, but say if liking brunette women was considered abnormal, and Id know since I was 10 I liked brunettes better than blondes and covered it up till I was 21, and I had to put up with insults and disrespect... I can understand the logic of being over the top, of being defiant, of being right up in people's faces and saying "I like brunettes, fuck you if you dont like it, do you want a fight about it you wanker?" etc

If youre straight and you never have to hide your romantic and sexual feelings cos they arent considered normal, i think its hard to understand the kind emotion it could build up inside of you.

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Ourcrazymodern?

Yeah, I wanted to jump all over Plan9's, too. Thank you for doing it so much more elegantly!

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citadel

<------------- The guy agrees with you, for whatever that's worth.

That's true in my experience with the homosexuals I know as well.

She5

Disclaimer (lol): I would just like everyone to know that I'm not trying to hurt anyone or be spiteful (honestly), and I'm not here to judge, condemn, or hate. I'm here to ask questions, state my opinion, read people's opinions, and get some answers. Bear with me please.

I've heard/read about what you mentioned, and I've looked into it myself. I've also read about how hormones affect people's sexual orientation...but do hormones change a person's DNA? (I know hormones can affect the behavior of the organisms in our bodies and our overall behavior as well, but I'm asking if hormones can change/mutate your DNA or chromosomes?). Aren't genes the only pre-determined and permanent thing about people? You can take estrogen and testosterone pills, but does that change your inherited DNA? Does it change the fact you either have XX or XY chromosomes? A person with strait hair can perm their hair to make it curly, but does that change the fact that the person actually has strait hair? Is there really scientific proof of a sexual orientation gene (let me know people)? Aren't XX and XY chromosomes pretty much pre-determined sexual orientation genes? Is sexual orientation based on who you're attracted to, or who you have sex with? Can someone tell me???

These questions are why I'm extremely skeptical about pre-determined sexual orientation. In my opinion, when it come to sex or physical attraction, anything can become acceptable if it satisfies your senses and desires. If you're craving a sugary snack and you see that fine cupcake that looks good, tastes good, and feels good in your mouth, then I guess it's good for you. Forget about that brocoli and that apple, you can't help but to eat that cupcake (LOL, okay, maybe that was kind of a weird example, and you probablly think I'm crazy, but you probablly get what I'm saying though right?)

And if we were all born with a pre-determined sexual orientation (gay, strait, bi....dog, horse, pedo) then why are we not all "straight"? I only ask this because (according to science) reproduction and survival is what keeps life moving. Aside from pleasure and fun, what is the purpse of dude parts and chick parts? Can a person really not controll weather or not they use their genitals for an act of sexuality? It's not like you can't stop yourself from stimulating your genitals on/in someone, right? People have the freedom to do whatever they want with their genitals, do they not? Thoughts? Oppinions? Facts?

Sheepy

This video has a go a explaining it


( Though warning: It sneaks some stereotypical anti Christian propaganda in there)

She5

I appreciate the the cartoon explanation...
I would like to say that I believe those conversion ministries are a huge load of bologne.....you can't make someone change if they dont have the will to do it themselves (which is why they're pointless). And that whole thing about sons turning out more gay if you have a lot of sons? My grandpa came from a family of 12 siblings (no joke) and none of them are gay or feminine at all, or overly macho for that matter. According to science, humans are animals....so why is it so far fetched that an animal can have free will? Just because they're not exactly like us, it doesn't mean they have stupid robot minds. Dogs go around wanting to hump and have sex with people and couches don't they? Lions can have multiple mates and multiple children (and male lions can kill off the offspring that doesn't belong to them) right? I mean, animals kill eachother and eat other animals. What the hay, let's all behave like our fellow Earth creatures!

Is there a difference between nature and behavior? Is there a separation between what something is and how something acts?
Why is no one answering my questions directly? Give me scientific articles or something that I can read. Everyone knows that hormones affect a person's behavior or their bodies to some extent (like steroids, stuff found in bith control pills, PMS hormones, testosterone, estrogen, etc.) but no amount of hormones is going to mutate or alter you DNA or chromosomes, right? I can PMS all I want, so it's okay for me to act like a jerk because I was born that way? What I want to know is do hormones change/mutate/alter a person's DNA or chromosomes?

Supposedly, the point of life is to be free, so what is freedom to you all? Does being free apply to your thoughts or your actions? Why is it so wrong that we can choose who we want to have sex with? Why is it so dangerous to say that we have the choice to act on our emotions? How are our emotions justified? I'm angry and I feel like hitting someone. I'm sad and I feel like cutting myself. I'm lusting, and I feel like caressing and sexualy fantasizing. I'm jealous, so I want my spiteful revenge. I'm craving, so I'm going to eat a whole cake. Can we even control our emotions? Is love an emotion? Is love free? Are we forced to love? Do we even know the difference between love and lust anymore? Answer me!

kramus

This is a good point to introduce the field of epigenetics for anyone who hasn't heard about it yet; "epigenetics is the study of changes in gene activity that do not involve alterations to the genetic code but still get passed down to at least one successive generation".

Here's an interesting introductory article.

"Epigenetics: DNA Isn’t Everything

I'm not saying environmental changes in an embryo somehow switch on the gayness in a person. But I want to point out that DNA is more complex than we think, and our current understanding is just that, what we currently understand. So genes are permanent, but their expression can change. This change can also be inherited. Mysteriouser and mysteriouser, eh?


My understanding of XX/XY is that these chromosomes determine how the physical sexuality of an organism is expressed. There may be a preponderance of behaviours associated with physical sexuality (ie females tend to mate w males & vice versa) but they are not absolutes.

Sexuality is a very complex set of behaviours. Much more so in animals than in plants, I believe, because in animals there is a brain which changes according to learned responses as well as following the template laid out by the genes of the animals inherited DNA. You will find evidence of "homosexual" activity in pretty well every branch of the animal kingdom. I'm not sure these animals are choosing to behave this way. It may be something more than choice.

Another thing to be clear on. A persons' actions do not necessarily express their sexuality. A man who has sex with a woman is not automatically and for evermore straight, and a man who has sex with a man is not necessarily gay from that point onward. Of course there are the cases of people who permanently refrain from any sexual contact - they are not necessarily neuters. There is circumstance and context to take into account for all kinds of sexual orientation questions and actions. Prison sex is not the same as sex when there is freedom of choice. Nor is sex within an arranged marriage, or indeed within any constrained social contract setting.

That all said, I feel pretty sure there is an underlying mechanism that is often expressed in homosexuals as the "gay voice", the "gay walk" and "gay sensibility". Not always, and not cut and dried either, but often enough to make me say hmmmmmm.

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She5

--------------------------------------------------------------

Finally, someone with an article! Thank you very much, I appreciate it, the information was very interesting and informative! This article mostly adressed how chemicals can change an organism's physical appearance/expression of physical traits (and the way a person acts sexually cannot really be characterized as a physical trait). Chemicals can make your cells act cancerously and they will form tumors......which is neccessarily not what cells are supposed to do. Chemicals can do a whole lot of things to organisms and cause them to misbehave, I don't deny that fact. However, chemicals won't alter DNA even if it changes how a cell acts or how a person appears, no?

I agree about there being what we would call "homosexual activity" in the animal kingdom, definately a proven fact. It's no suprise though, I mean, if an animal is horny, it's usually going to do something to satisfy itself. Like I said before, a dog will hump a couch or a person if it's horny. Both beasts and humans are intelligent and have free will, but I think the "something more" that you mentioned may be the difference between our concious and the concious of an animal? An animal that's been labeled "homosexual" will still mate with the opposite sex though....or will they ? Anyway, sexual behavior is really not that complex. The concept of Love, on the other hand, has been complicated (especially since people identify love with feelings of desire, lust, fantasy, sexual excitement/attraction/satisfaction).

You also mentioned "A persons' actions do not necessarily express their sexuality. A man who has sex with a woman is not automatically and for evermore straight, and a man who has sex with a man is not necessarily gay from that point onward." So you're saying that a person's sexuality is not determined by their actions. Based on your reasoning, a person's actions are separate from what they are (which still leaves room for free will/choice). If sexuality is not determined by a person's actions, then how is it determined (is it determined by sexual attraction alone)? In my oppinion, sexual orientation is just another way to label, or a means to justify/condemn why people have sex with/are sexually attracted to certain people. Sexuality is simple; if it makes your senses feel good (and if it's irresistable), then why not

You also stated, "My understanding of XX/XY is that these chromosomes determine how the physical sexuality of an organism is expressed. There may be a preponderance of behaviours associated with physical sexuality (ie females tend to mate w males & vice versa) but they are not absolutes." Based on your reasoning, if there was a supposed "sexual orientation gene" (which to our current understanding, there isn't), then it also won't absolutely determine a person's sexual orientation (or how they will act sexually). Therefore, this still shows that sexuality is a choice. A person can be a male or a female, but they can act however they want (or in some cases, act how they have been directly/indirectly influenced). The manner in which a person carries themselves, dresses, or talks is not neccessarily pre-determined. There is no "acting" male (or female), you either are or you're not. A girl can act "butch" but that doesn't mean she's a lesbian/a man. A man can act feminine, but that doesn't make him gay/a woman. A transvestite (or is it transgender? correct me if I'm wrong) can surgically change their genitals and take hormones, but the fact is, they are either XX or XY. You can't really deny that...oppinions?

You also said that "Prison sex is not the same as sex when there is freedom of choice." I agree. In the case of rape, one person makes the choice to rape another person (and rape is wrong because this action infringes upon a person's freedom). "Gay" or "Straight" people can also choose to have mutual sex with their prison mate as well. People also cannot use the reasoning, "I'm so horny and there's no one of the opposite sex around, I had no choice other than to do something sexual with someone of the same sex."

Sex without love is immoral.....marriage without sex is not marriage....sex without marriage is impossible....a marriage without love is pointless....love without freedom is not love. Oppinions?

Charlatan

This is not, strictly speaking, true. Dogs are pack animals and humping has more to do with displays of dominance and submission. A way of establishing the pecking order, so to speak.

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She5

Thanks for the clarification my friend, I probablly should have said "in some cases"; In some cases, a dog will hump a couch or a person if it's horny (and maybe even another dog, even if it is another dog of the same sex). But let's go with this reasoning. Charlatan says that dogs use sexuality as a means to express their domiance. If this is the case, then a person cannot conclude that animals are homosexual just because they do sexual things with other animals of the same sex. Therefore, people cannot justify/condemn the actions of a human based on what an animal does. Apprently, there are a whole different set of sexuality rules for animals (although, I suppose it is safe to say that some people use sexuality as a means to assert their dominance).

Charlatan

Here's the real question: What does it matter if some identifies as homosexual or not? What does it matter if two people of the same sex wish to join together in a legal union?

Frankly, I don't care whether it is a choice or biology. As long as they are not harming others, what does it matter? So many people are hung up on telling people how to live their live and/or castigating them for living life as they see fit.

It's an odd take on things, in my opinion.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Plan9

Pfft, I assert my dominance by humping all these cocky bastards at TFP. Take... that... yeah... you like... that... ergh!

...because we're bigoted retards that believe in Jesus and lipstick lesbian porn. Certainly you have some of those in your current fancy country.

And I won't even get into the marriage industry and the divorce racket.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

KirStang

Problem with that argument is--what about incest and polygamy and statutory rape and drugs and all sorts of other shit that 'don't harm others.'

God dammit. I want to spend all my money on whores and drink myself to death. It should be legal. Everywhere. I'm leaving las vegas, baby.



HEY! Step away from my livelihood. I will divorce many happy couples and run off with millions. MILLIONS I SAY!

__________________

Charlatan

You have no idea.

Wikipedia: Section 377A of the Penal Code (Singapore) criminalizes "gross indecency" between men which includes consensual, private, adult homosexual acts. The penalty is up to two years' imprisonment.


There was a debate in parliament a few years ago where Section 377A was openly discussed and it was decided that the section would remain in place but would not be enforced.

Regardless, living here, in particular reference to this issue can be likened to living in Canada during the 1970s. Ignorance with a mix of juvenile humour. It's not pretty.


And KirStang, you are right. It's not a great counter-argument. Rather it was me throwing my hands in the air (like I just don't care).

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Plan9

Word. I'm all for the throwing of hands in the air.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

She5

I don't have a problem with people who do same-sex things, and I'm not trying to tell people how to live their lives.....I just don't see a good reason why a person would want to do same-sex things, so I'm just trying to understand it (but hey, we have the freedom to do what we want with our bodies, so who am i to stop someone from having their freedom?). It's not like I think gays are aliens from outer space or something. First and foremost we are human beings, and we should do good for ourselves and for other people.

And what kind of attitude is "if what they do doesn't hurt anyone else, then why is it a problem?" I guess you just shouldn't care about what people do to themselves as long as it's behind closed doors and doesn't affect you personally? smh.

---------- Post added at 02:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:17 PM ----------

Yes, I saw the problem with this argument as well. You can't justify same sex activity on the basis that it doesn't hurt anyone else.....come on people.
So, then, what are other ways that same-sex activity be justified? If people can find a valid reason, then same-sex union can be legalized without a second thought.

---------- Post added at 02:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:24 PM ----------

I don't see how it is logical to throw people in jail or physically abuse someone just because they partake in same-sex activity.....especially since imprisonment seems like it would lead to more homosexual acts, and abuse (rather than discipline) from authorities against gays is just fighting misconduct with misconduct. Trying to get justice/morality by means of injustice/immorality is not right.