filtherton

I thought i did give reasons and evidence. You chose one thing and refuted in a way that proved to me that you missed the point of why i said it.

My point was that "a bunch of people i know" agreeing with an idea doesn't make said idea any more real than if nobody agrees with it.

My argument is that ladder theory, while applicable to many people, is mostly generalization and as such has little value on an interpersonal level. Its the kind of bullshit psuedopsychology that can perpetuate bullshit stereotypes and convince people not to take responsibility for their behavior.

While he mentions "field testing" he fails to be specific, only mentioning girls in clubs. This makes me assume that this little theory applies to club girls. That might make more sense, but it hardly results in a solid scientific theory. Hello? Spend all your time in the stable and you're likely to get some shit on your shoes. That doesn't mean that everything is shit.

Do you think 99.9999999% of women are bitches? Which is it, your mom or your girlfriend or your sister or your grandmother? Are you "man" enough tell her to her face?

I have plenty of female friends who i don't want to fuck. And if i did fuck a female friend and got burned i would attribute it to some bullshit ladder. I'd attribute to the fact that fucking your friends is sometimes a really stupid thing to do. Befriending people just because you want to fuck them is an incredibly inconsiderate way to treat people. I'm not trying to sound self-righteous. I'm just not trying to attribute a lack of self control to some sort of bullshit inevitability.

This theory assumes that all people are shallow, selfish, and led either by greed or libido. Granted, there are many people who fit those criteria. It just seems like your friend whatshisnuts is content to surround himself with superficial women and immature men and create a fun little theory that frees him completely from needing to take any responsibility for his problems with women.

It's not my fault i let my dick make bad decisions for me. It is my nature.
It's not my fault that i only hook up with shallow, insincere women. It's because 99.99999999999% of women are bitches.

Yeah, that's it. Dumb bitches.

BooRadley

To that end of my post I should have specified who I was talking to. I was talking to motdakasha , my mistake, who posts :

How does that disprove it?

Back to filthertons argument.

It is not "real".. it is a theory. It is not a law, nor is it a proof. It is a generalization. It only claims to encompass a majority of people. That would mean, 50.0000000000000000000000001% of the population, since we are messing around with meaningless numbers. And , it would have to be the adult (still dating) population of the world, so that takes it down that only 20% would have to meet the criteria to make the ladder theory plausible. I know at least 1 out of 5 people I meet are going to react as the ladder theory describes, so I believe it is a "real" theory.

I'll agree there. It is bullshit pseudopsychology whose purpose is take away responsibility, but that doesn't mean elements aren't true.

Where do you meet girls? Where do the majority of people outside of college/high school meet girls?

Perhaps I should say "females that an average person (notice the generalization again.... ) would want to date". This can include any women that any male would want to date, not just women that a 19-28 year old male would want to

My mom, girlfriend, grandmother, and every woman I met in my life could be not a bitch and that would still be less than .00001% of females and not disprove the theory.

I have told plenty of my female acquaintances that they were being bitches... but it takes alot to get me riled up.

I can't disprove that 99.99% of females are bitches... so I guess I'll agree with it for the sake of the generalization that is the ladder theory.

You probably are right, but you wouldn't fuck a 'friend' in the first place. And neither would most guys. The main point of the ladder theory outlines the differences between a typical males definition of 'friend' and a females.

I agree with you again. I think it is completely stupid, and violates common courtesy. However, I and many of my friends ( male and female) have subconciously did so because they think it is the 'right' thing to do.

A majority. I'm not trying to get semantic here, but "all" completely changes things. It would become the "LADDER LAW" otherwise.

filtherton

Seeing as how i have yet to see any evidence that isn't completely anecdotal i don't think this even qualifies as a theory. It is nothing more than formalized stereotype. That being the case, of course there are going to be elements of truth to it. All stereotypes are rooted in truth. Given a million monkeys typing at a million keyboards, how long would it take for them to write something that contains elements of truth?

Even if it does accurately represent a large group of people. So what? What is it useful for? I can sum it up with one sentence: A lot of men and nearly all women are stupid, selfish, shorsighted individuals who want nothing more than to get their rocks off. There's ladder theory. How is that helpful? Is it the author's intention to help people avoid this poisonous way of dealing with other people? Nope. Sorry. This prophet ain't here to save anybody. His main point is to try and help the average man find his way to "friend with benefits" territory, because that is the ideal spot. Fucking Quagmire.

If he were really a genius he'd be selling this in book form. People will pay a lot of money for someone, regardless of dubious authority, to tell them how their problems aren't actually their own fault.

Believe in it all you want, just don't try to tell me that it accurately depicts reality in any meaningful way.

Skettios

Filtherton,

I think you're missing the point of Lynn's theory.

The point is to try to help all of this frustrated chumps out there, who think that if they are nice and friendly with girls, that they will magically be turned into good boyfriends. He presents this in a sarcastic and caustic way, not because he hates women, but because he empathizes with these frustrated men, and wants to help them keep some dignity.

We're all calling for evidence, one way or the other. The only evidence I can provide is that I've asked 4 of my female acquaintances to read this very website, and they all agree with it. If you think for even a minute that I hang out with shallow club girls, or bitches, you're very wrong.

I'm not sure what you think ladder theory is, but your very argument seems to agree with it.


I think Ladder Theory agrees with you. It teaches men to be honest and open about their intentions, if they're rejected to move on, and to refrain from veiling their true emotions in the form of friendship.

So what is it good for?

It's a basic set of ground rules, men and women can use to understand relationships.

Women want strong, confident men, who aren't afraid to express their emotions. They want to be able to have friends without worrying that the friend just wants to fuck them. They need to find a man attractive in order to have a sexual relationship with them.

Men want women they find interesting and attractive. We want to have a best friend to sleep with. The lesson we learn from ladder theory, is that we can't try to convert friends into lovers. We need to be honest with our emotions, and make our intentions clear. Finally, when a woman is stringing us on, we need to make a clean break. It's true, you cannot jump ladders.

Boiled down and simplified, what's so hard to understand about this? What is there to disagree with?

p.s. BooRadley, I thought your posts were spot on... just thought I would put things in a different way.

__________________
Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies.

Frederich Nietzsche

brianna

so acording to this "theory" the main criteria that men judge women by (looks) is completely subjective where as the main criteria that women judge men by (money/power) isn't -- that sounds fishy to me. if this were true all women would want to date the exact same men -- only men think this is true.

Skettios

I think money/power can be 'subjective' as well.

I like the article says, in highschool you don't have to be loaded to get girls, but it does help to have some free cash. In college, having a car, and money for dinner and drinks is a huge bonus.

Power is subjective too, in the same way I prefer brunettes to blondes, a woman might prefer a talented artist or musician to a political power broker.

__________________
Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies.

Frederich Nietzsche

filtherton

I think you're putting rose tinted spin on this theory. I fail to see the value in defining my relationships and all their potential by means of cynical stereotype. The fact is that what any one woman wants can't be defined by some vague theory. Maybe this is valuable when dealing with women as a group, but one person is impossible to pin down in the framework of one idea as broad as this one. What i see when i look at ladder theory is a bunch of whiny men who need to take responsibility for their actions and their desires. I disagree with you that ladder theory is any kind of answer to the problems of chumpitude and getting laid by way of pretending to be sensitive. I doubt we'll ever see eye to eye on this, so the last word is yours if you want it.

brianna

and suddenly fitherton becomes insanely attractive to me despite the fact that i associate him with dick cheney's ugly mug.

filtherton

Awww, shucks.

Better you associate me with cheney's ugly mug than my primate like hairyness.

Skettios

I don't know what to say. All I can really say that, as sad as this sounds, many women I know would happily place themselves inside this theory.

In the end, I'm not sure that Ladder Theory provides any good answers for anyone, I mean it still doesn't tell you how to meet nice girls, or find true love.

What is does tell you is that all of those guys out there, who are nice to girls, and talk to them about their guy problems, are never going to get anywhere, because girls don't mess around with their friends.

By looking around this board, I think that there are a few people who need to understand this.

Finally, there's no need for a last word. By arguing this back and forth we can come to some kind of common ground, or at least come to a better understanding of the subject matter.

Anyway, I'd still like to hear from anyone else out there on whether you find this to be true or not. And if not, maybe you should work up your model of how these types of relationships work.

Filtherton, maybe you can let us know how you approach women, and what has worked for you...

__________________
Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies.

Frederich Nietzsche

filtherton

The philosophy(if you could call it that) that has worked best for me when it comes to meeting ladies is to not try to meet ladies. It's not that important to me. I try to be up front about who i am and what i stand for and i leave it at that. You can't look for a good woman, you have to let one find you. Then you have to see her for what she is and do what you have to do to make a connection with her. Above all, you can't compromise on who you are and what you stand for. If you don't know who you are and what you stand for than you have no business being in a serious, committed relationship. If you can't be happy and comfortable while you're single than your never going to be really happy and comfortable in a relationship.

Toecutter

Im goin' out on a limb here:

Why this man hasn't won the Nobel prize yet is a mystery to me!! Weather this is a joke or not, you cannot refute the validity or deny the theory! It is prevalent and omipresent as the air we breathe, and the sooner one accepts the theory, the sooner one is on their way to being a well adjusted human being! Look out Zen, here comes The Ladder Theory (c).

BooRadley

Lets boil this down in LT terms :

Strange. You wait, and girls approach you? You must be far above average looking, as this doesn't tend to happen to average or lower looking guys.

If you are still meeting interested women without trying, then you are luckier than a majority of men. That is probably why you cannot relate to the ladder theory. This advice does not help someone who has trouble with women.

filtherton

Are you trying to sound so incredulous?

I'm not any more attractive than anybody else. In fact, i think that i am probably less attractive than a lot of people. I don't really work out, i've got a little belly going on.
Perhaps i've been lucky in that lately i've been surrounded by women whom i both respect and find attractive. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that i don't try to meet girls at clubs. I have other social networks that don't involve alcohol, or shallow people dressed to impress(your average clubgoer). I have interests outside drinking and mating, which is another way of saying i go places where i expect to meet like minded people. Which brings up another idea, perhaps you go places where you expect to meet like minded people too. Taking into account the fact that you seem to completely embrace ladder theory it should be no surprise to you if you only meet women who think exactly like you expect them to. I also try to meet women when they are sober because you're average drunk person acts like a child. I also don't hang around with women i don't respect.


It's not a matter of luck, luck is for people who lack proper insight into the way certain mechanisms work. It's a matter of faith. Not christian faith, but the faith that you have in yourself that you don't need have a woman by your side all of the time. As soon as you realize that getting your dick wet shouldn't be a high priority it ceases to become a high priority. You then free yourself from any leverage any woman may have over you. The reason "nice guys" are chumps is that they don't respect themselves enough to chase women who respect them. They're only looking for someone with a vagina, everything else is just a detail. With standards like that, no wonder they get fucked over by women. LT does nothing to help this.

Skettios

I dunno, Filtherton. I keep reading the stuff you write, and I find that I really don't disagree with any of it. However I fail to see how what you wrote in the message above contradicts ladder theory. Maybe the problem is that my interpretation of LT has spread to include everything that I want it to say.

For me though, the point is, and I think other posts have pointed this out, is that you don't need to put women on a pedestal. You don't need to be a chump and question your own self worth. If a woman doesn't want to have a relationship, you need to realize that and let it go. Have some dignity, and have some self respect, wait for girls that want you on the good ladder.

I don't think there's anything wrong with going out and looking. However I agree that many of us look in the wrong places.

This is good stuff, worth some further meditation.

__________________
Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies.

Frederich Nietzsche