The Ladder Theory.
 

Props to bermuDa for providing this link.

After reading the theory, i've realised all my female friends are cuddle bitches. Most of them have boyfriends similar to the theory's, but i fool around with every one of them. They always say stuff like 'you're so sweet' or 'you're so easy to talk to'. I haven't had a girlfriend for about a year, but i'm getting significant action... but now i don't know if i wanna carry on with this. This is a pretty big shock to me.

So, should i just keep fucking around with them, or should i go out and get into a relationship?

The theory has been in Nonsense, there's a big thread, I think KWSN started it.

Kush,

It sounds like you didn't quite grasp the ladder theory. It is you, not the woman, who is the cuddle bitch. A cuddle bitch is merely an intellectual whore with blue balls...

Anyhow - the ladder theory is good entertainment, and from many perspectives frighteningly true. That being said, don't overanalise it - sometimes it ain't so bad being a cuddle bitch.

The ladder theory makes a lot of sense...when you are trying to figure out why you don't have a girlfriend.

my girlfriend is amazingly hot. i'm screwed :-(

thx for the props, although I'd figured someone had posted about it before. the ladder theory does prove itself in a number of situations, unfortunately...

This is a good theory. I do want to fuck all my friends.

Ok I really don't like that theory, or I guess it's really not the theory, but the way that this person describes women as money obssesed, outlaw wanting, whores. Ok so I want a man that is motivated and has some goals in life, does that mean I want him to be rich? NO! I just don't want to worry about where our food money is coming from next. And this guy doesn't seem to mention at all that that guy's rating system is mostly looks. He makes it seem that that is completely fine!


WHAT? no sorry I wouldn't like a man that has stabbed another man and gone to jail for it thank you very much. I would take the normal guy that is trying to have a happy life in two seconds though...


I really want to know where this guy got this info, What kind of women was he doing "field studies" with? I really hope the intelligent men on tfp aren't actually taking this serious, that gives me chills if anyone actually believes women are that gross.


And yeah I do agree with the two ladders that women have, but isn't that a good thing? wow we can actually see outside of sexual terms, what a concept...

Did this bother anyone else? Girls?

Nah, not me. I really don't buy into this whole thing.

i was recently courting a girl, being the nice guy; and she ended up going back to her scumbag drunkard ex-boyfriend who flew her up to washington and bought her lots of stuff... even though I'm continuing to be the nice guy and even got her a birthday gift, she won't call or even return an e-mail.

I'm sure the guy who made that site has had similar experiences, prompting him to publish it. While it may not be universal, the ladder theory does seem to ring true in many cases. Girls just don't seem to go for the nice guy, I guess it's cause we make better friends than the assholes they prefer to date.

This really sucks! I'd love to have a nice guy that can take care of himself, doesn't have to be rich, but can just hold a job. It kind of makes me mad that men like you bermuDa are being screwed over by women like this. :(

I posted about Ladder Theory a couple of times. While it isn't all gold, a lot of it is good.

To bondagegirl, I'd say this. You sound like a nice girl. Like nice guys, you are very rare. The buik of women I meet at college really can be described by ladder theory. As for the guy's ladder, I don't know what to tell you. When you first meet a person, looks are about all you have to go on. And besides, the guy that runs the site is a royal pedantic asshole- just look at his blog- so obniously the theory is tinted by that.

And is it really true that a guy can't have a platonic (sp?) friendship with a girl? I mean I've heard this a lot and my boyfriend says it all the time because I used to have a lot of guy friends. But I want more guys opinions on this...

sorry to be such a thread hog...:D

IMO the ladder theory is like picking off a pin with a bazooka.

Sociobology and psychology are (to my exp. so far) better than the ladder theory but you have to spend way more time studying it and put in more of a conscious effort to apply it.

But they also explain things with more depth, aren't limited to sexuality.

Edit:
Assuming you are using the ladder theory as a means to improve, whatever that means to you.

I have had plenty of female friends, in fact the vast majority of thme have been. Did I want to sleep with them? Quite possibly now that I think back, but it was never such that it ever effected anything I did or said. Of course, that isn't to say now when I make friends with a girl the thing running in the back of my head is I want to sleep with her. I usualy just avoid girls I don't. Does this make the ladder theory true? No, not at all, I'm perfectly happy having female friends I will never sleep with, nor willl I ever let it affect the advice I give. But nothing changes the gentic urge to do so.
As for dealing with women, it has quite changed my view. Will I accept there are rare people who don't fit this, there is the fact that women are genetically attracted to power (and it's sub, money). Yes, I realize this puts a blatent generalization on the issue, but there are very few cases where I find it to be the opposite.
The one female I sent this too, who I find to be quite open minded and honest said it's 'awsome' and based of something or nother I can't remember. Then she asked if I wanted to sleep with her, but that's an entire other topic.


Leviathan

bondagegirl, i'm not very much fond of how the theorist portrays women either. I agree with how they categorise friends though.. to a point.

LOL

I learned this shit a long time ago. My solution: Play the game –as learned from (fastseduction.com or from the ladder theory)- moment by moment, and wait for a 'committed' girl to come along. Therein resides your chance to pounce on that one girl who IS actually a <i>good</i> girl. All the other girls are just to entertain you along the way. If you never find that one girl who is actually not a bitch you shouldn’t feel too bad since you got to fuck all those other women. If you do find that girl, then that’s great too. Either way you win.

To sum it up: Learn how to play the game while keeping your eye out for good catches. This way you can’t lose.

IMO: Horrible game. Horrible strategy. Defenestrate the game.

Fun theory, but still just a theory...

Although the theory was written in a pretty cynical way, in my opinion (and from my experiences) it is basicly the thruth stripped from all lies, illusions and misconceptions. Call me a cynical as*ole if you want but that's the way i percive it..

I'm just glad i'm not the only one seeing this.

I didn't think you could get action from them and still be on the friend ladder? I thought that put you somewhere else.

As with all human relationhips, it depends on the people involved. Anybody who can't control impulses probably shouldn't have friends of the opposite sex. Physical attraction just happens between men and women - controlling the urges is up to the individual and some people have self-control, some don't.

Some of my best friends are female and I wouldn't trade them for anything. Some are even ex's and there's just no issue... there's a reason we broke up ya know? Anyone I would have a hard time just being friends with... I don't keep in contact.

As for the whole ladder thing - I see it in action all the time, but I've refused to play when I've been aware of it happening. Games like that seem like a waste of time to me, so I find people who don't care to play them. It made dating in my 20's much, much harder because most of the women in my peer group played a lot of games, so I always ended up dating older women. It's been interesting as I've caught up to the median age of my dates... (grin)

some one was tellin me about this and i will start to read it, any other thoughts on this?

Thats not a bad theory

I'm bumping this thread instead of starting a new one.

I have a question for you guys that understand ladder theory.

If you've fucked a girl, and then were kind of friends with her, are you on the ladder? Can you fall off the fucking ladder onto the friends ladder, or once you have your spot, are you on there permanently?

I guess that depends on how good you were ;)

I believe the theory states that it's difficult to jump ladders, and the higher up you are the longer you have to fall. If she still wants you, I don't think that places you on the friend's ladder.

Then again, it's just a theory (more like a hypothesis, but it's fun to say "theory"), and just one on the internet at that. I find it interesting and can relate to it in some cases, but the guy does seem pretty bitter.

I'm not a guy but here's my two cents.
I don't believe guys can have a platonic friendship with a girl. The relationship will start out with whether or not the guy will want to fuck you. If he doesn't have the desire to fuck you, he wont even be your friend. I have long time guy friends that I asked this question once, "When we first met, were we only friends because you would sleep with me if you had the chance?" And they all answered affirmatively. I asked a particular friend when I went down to St. George to visit my family (we've been best friends since seventh grade) if he would still sleep with me if he had the opportunity, he said yes. I hope this helps you out :) I honestly have little faith in the male population right about now, but that's just my opinion.

Oh, and the Ladder Theory is true. My friend Jon uses it to analize why he doesn't have a girlfriend that this particular time, and it always ends up being accurate.

bondagegirl and others...

Everyone seems to think it's so disappointing that all of their friends secretly want to sleep with them.

The thing that girls miss is the obvious difference between wanting to sleep with someone, and trying to fuck them. Most guys don't get creepy and obsessive about the objects of our affection like some women do. Women are prone to overthink many aspects of a relationship, when they are interested in someone, they become very focused, concerned and almost jealous. Guys are so much more opportunistic than that.

If you're not going to give it up, most of us are more than willing to move onto the next girl. We can still be friends, whatever, especially if you have some nice girlfriends you'd set us up with, but most of all, if we're not getting laid, it's just not a big deal. We're not going to go cry about it.

You ask me this... how opportunistic are most men? Well outside of relatives like moms and sisters, and women that are too disgusting to mention, pretty much everything else is fair game. Add drugs, alcohol, or inbreeding, and even then those lines get crossed sometimes.

It's just the way we're built.

BermuDa, thanks for responding to my post, I"m inclined to agree with you, I think getting laid (and I was told it was good) put me fairly high on the friends ladder.

Yes, that's pretty much true if the guy is single. I think its perfectly logical. If a guy is friends with a girl, then he obviously gets along with her and enjoys her company. Aren't these the main qualities that one looks for in a relationship? I don't understand how a single woman would not be attracted to a male friend.

Wow... I don't think this is true at all. I have been friends with girls I initially had no attraction to. The process of getting to know them better made them attractive. By "attractive" I don't mean that I just wanted to fuck said girl. It means sexual attraction, but also a genuine caring and desire for giving affection (and having it returned). It doesn't include sex as a requirement or ultimate goal, although it wouldn't be refused either. Maybe I'm a little more conservative than most guys.

That is a grossly inaccurate overgeneralization. You might like to think that most guys aren't creepy and obsessive. That doesn't mean it's reality. Guys are just as messed up as you like to think "some women" are.

Neither gender is perfect nor innocent.

Hold on there motdakasha.

As stingc said... when guys are looking for a relationship, we look for someone attractive that we get along with.

When I get along with a girl, I get put on the 'friends list'. When I'm mean to a girl, confident, and tease her, I get her phone number.

So in the context of THIS conversation, which gender is more messed up?

If a guy seems creepy and obsessive, it's because he's being strung along by some woman who likes him, but is not interested in a relationship with, but still won't let him go.

Women on the other hand, especially young women, seem more interested in fucking outlaw bikers, and getting oddly obsessed about men they don't even know.

Believe me or not, there's about a billion threads on tfp that prove my point.

I was extremely upset about women, especially the young ones, until I realized that hardly any of them, have a clue as to what they want. All they know, is that they don't want the nice guy that honestly likes them.

I still completely disagree.

It might be slightly more constructive to explain why you disagree.

Anyway, no disrespect Motdakasha, I've read threads before where I completely agree with you. Just not this time.

Like I said, I've been known to get 'creepy' about girls, many guys have, but only because we don't understand why the rules work in the exact opposite way they should.

This "theory" overgeneralizes things a bit and is shaky... however I think it does have bits of truth in it.

Despite all that women say, power is a major aphrodisiac, and the guys who exhibit the qualities they claim to want (sensitive, chivalrous, polite, faithful, etc.) are the ones who get shit on.

I think I might be a man. Given the opportunity, I would probably fuck any of my male friends.

This reminds me of "men are from mars and women are from venus". It seems like it may apply, but it only applies because people think it does. In some ways it may even perpetuate the ladder system by convincing people that it has to be reality. Who the fuck is this guy to know what chicks dig. The fact that he is using the words "chick" and "dig" in the same sentence proves to me that he probably knows a great deal about women who hang out in singles bars or flash their chests for a free t-shirt. Just because he is shallow, and surrounds himself with other shallow people doesn't mean everybody else is just as shallow. Hellooooo? His optimal position is friends with benefits status. He might as well be Quagmire from the family guy.

With gems like:It sounds like somebody isn't aware of the irony he creates by calling somebody a bitch.


I have many female friends i don't want to fuck. I didn't used to, but then i noticed that i was befriending people that i didn't even like. I realized that it takes a certain lack of respect for women in general to only get close to them because you want to fuck. It seems akin to befriending a rich person because they might buy you some shit some day. I made a choice to look at women like i look at men, that is, as human beings, not walking vaginas. It's about respect. Self respect and respect for other people. Besides, how can you complain about women treating you badly when you base whole friendships on trying to get your dick wet?

Any guy who looks for love from a lady when she is obviously stringing him along deserves what he gets. Its certainly not her fault if he gets creepy. By becoming creepy he's just playing her game.

The only way to void the ladder system is to realize that it's bullshit. It only applies to people who choose to put themselves in a position to be subject to its rules.

Above all i think it is useless to summarize the bahavior of entire genders in such ways. Don't play these games and you won't have to worry about this ladder business.

See Filtherton... you can say whatever you want. The point is that this 'theory' seems to hold most of the time.

In fact, most of the girls I know, I've asked them to read this theory and they say it's right on as to how they feel.

So when you say 'The only way to void the ladder system is to realize it's bullshit'. I say... nope... you're wrong, because it doesn't work like that, and that's the whole point of this thread.

I don't have the energy or desire to defend this anymore. From now on, maybe we can leave discussion in this thread, to people who agree with it, and then we're free to discuss different aspects of it. That's what I was trying to do with my recent post.

Nope, you're wrong. That's exactly how it works.
This "theory" is based on assumptions of how people choose to act. The key part being choice. If all women who have the ladder mentality decided that they were going to start looking at relationships in completely different way than ladder theory would be exposed.
Paradigms change.
For a while, in different parts of the america, it was generally true that white people thought minorities were inferior. That's not so much the case anymore. People realized that that way of thinking was bullshit and moved on. Please keep in mind that i am not trying to associate you or ladder theory with racism. I'm just trying to point out that social constructs are manufactured by humans and can be altered by humans.

For you this theory may hold true most of the time, but you must realize that "most of the girls you know" as a group probably does not accurately represent all the women of the world. As it stands, most of the people i know would probably think that ladder theory is bullshit.

I agree that ladder theory portrays mentalities that do exist. I disagree that they are anywhere near as pervasive or inherent as its author would imply.


If you don't want to defend it, feel free to ignore me.

Although no social theory can be applied to everyone, this works in many cases. I'm married and although I wouldn't actually fuck any of my wifes friends, they all have their respective placements in the "who would I fuck first" list.

Dallas Lynn is a genius. I've had several great conversations with him, and he rivals the intelligence of anyone on the TFP and perhaps surpasses. He makes sweeping generalizations, but the ladder theory is a perfection of generalizations. I have yet, in 12 months of hanging out on the intellectualwhores.com forum, seen ANYONE post an effective counter argument to the ladder theory. If you can do it, then Dallas will acknowledge it, but so far, noone has been able to effectively disprove it using non-anecdotal evidence.

Period. How can you? All guys will agree with the theory, women will deny it, as predicted by the theory.... I have very intelligent female friends who agree with it, and the rest flat out deny it, as predicted by Dallas.

His logic is rock solid. The ladder theory is written in a way that the burden of proof is on an impossible segment to be represented on the internet... .001% of women are not bitches...

I'll address your arguments, after drinking way too much

What says "most of the girls you know" accurately represent the population? Sure, you may know 20 girls that disagree with the ladder theory. Hell, you make know 50 guys and girls, or a hundred. Fine, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say ok. If there are a hundred people that come forward and say "I agree with you wholeheratedly ,filtherton."

Good. We have a start. Then I can show you 50 people who say otherwise and their friends agree, and you suddenly become a minority. And then I can show you more people who have never heard of the ladder theory that would agree with the principles, and the web grows larger... and you still haven't encompassed enough people to effectively disprove the theory. The internet will always be skewed in its respondants to any particular topic

We all deal with isolated groups that may or may not represent society as a whole. But the whole independant growth of the "nice guy is screwed" mentality all over the internet is more likely to point the proof towards the ladder theory than against. There is no 'perfect' social theory, and the ladder theory does not claim to be. The ladder theory just claims to be work in a 'majority' of cases.

And one persons (albiet vocal) opinion cannot claim to be the majority. All the ladder theory has to prove is a majority, and the supporters far outnumber the defenders, among male and females alike.

Am I the minority? Yeah, fucking right. You wouldn't have 5 topics a week about the nice guy dilemma here at TFP if I was. You would have all topics saying "Man, men and women think so much alike!" and we have forums to prove that otherwise.

Give me some solid proof that your group is the majority, other than saying your limited group of friends disagrees. Give me some evidence to prove it doesn't work for everyone. Something.


People say they disagree with the theory. Give reasons, and evidence. This is the typical way of logical argument, are you going to back it up in any way whatsoever? Or just say you disagree and expect everyone to agree with you? Most people never have anything at all to justify it other than their "personal" ideas, which are skewed to begin with....