Salem

I thought of making a poll but there are WAY too many options, so I'm just gonna spew them here and you can post to vote if you will.

I was watching GLEE last night when an interesting topic came up. One of the main characters, Kurt, is very, very gay. And he set his father up with the mother of a boy he used to like, Finn. So Finn and his mother end up moving into Kurt and his dad's house, which is small, so Finn and Kurt have to share a bedroom. Kurt decorates it trying to make it half manly, half girly, good for the both of them basically. And Finn does NOT take kindly to this, he starts saying it's "Faggy" yelling that he can't stand the Fag pillows and fag sheets and fag everything. Kurts dad walks down and hears this, and tells Finn that he can't use that word in this house. Finn tries to tell him he "Didn't mean it that way" and Kurt's dad says he knows, that he used to say it to, but that it's derogitory and it hurts his son whether he means it or not, and he wont allow it. So it got me thinking about terms.

I once called myself a dyke in front of my mother and sister and my mom was horrified. She thought it was a terrible word and that I shouldn't call myself that. I prefer dyke in all honesty. So.. what do you think of such terms? And why?

Do you think gay, fag, dyke, queer, are derogitory, acceptible, and in what situations? For example is someone says, "That is SO gay!" about a.. really glittery man purse, is that okay with you? If someone says the same thing about not getting their way, or about a situation that is less than favorable to them, is that okay? If someone calls a guy a fag in the locker room after he's just expressed a love for Lady Gaga, but is heterosexual, is that okay? If someone calls someone a fag, who is homosexual, is that okay? What about dyke? A girl wears her hair short, her overalls baggy and gets called a dyke, but is straight, has she been insulted, or just mis-judged?

Let's hear your opinions!! And they are all opinions, I don't want any bashing, you're all free to think and say what you want, that's why i asked for opnions.

In my opinion.. when someone says " That's so gay," or "How gay" when they havn't gotten their way, or however else that phrase is popular these days, I don't like it. I usually try to correct people by saying "Actually, I'm sure that the party you're at doesn't have a sexual orientation, even if it does suck" Which really, really, really anooys people, and I KNOW it does, but it makes them stop and think at least. If someone says "That's SOOO Gay" about something that I would classify as gay.... Drag, Glittery male attire, ect, Yeah I'm fine with it unless they mean it in a hateful way. As for Fag, I think fag being tossed around between members of the queer community is okay. If someone says, "Oh you're such a fag" in a playful funny way with a friend that IS gay, and they KNOW it's meant to directly as that, "You are so gay" then that's okay. I think when someone calls someone a fag as a put down, to emasculate them, that's not okay. The same with dyke. My friend T calls me a dyke on occasion when I get some particularily "dykey" attire, and we just laugh and chat about it. My brother in law often calls me his favorite dyke. And I laugh about it, and he laughs about it, and it's all a good time because I know how he means it and there's mutual understanding, it's not a put down it's kind of a positive thing, it's a comliment as far as I'm concerned. I've been accepted for who I am in a positive way. But in elementray school and highschool when people used to ridicule me calling me a dyke and a lesbian because i was a virgin who didn't have a boyfriend, yeah, that pissed me off. I had no idea i was gay, or I might have taken it differently, but I was FURIOUS everytime someone yelled, "LESBIAN" when I walked by, because I wouldn't put out.

Basically if it's meant as a put down, it's a put down, and I don't think it's nessecary, nor to I endorse it. If it's a mutual thing between any and all partys, fine, whatever. If it's a positive thing, a compliment, then great. That's my very thic two cents, let's hear yours.

Jetée

I was actually about to leave a comment in your "Glee!" thread in which I debated just using this phrasing of "however gay it might be perceived that I actually enjoyed the first 13 episodes of this series". (though, in all honesty, I was going to tell Charlatan, as that unclaimed post was in response to his, that this series may have already jumped the shark, in my eyes. I can barely tolerate hearing it anymore, let alone watching it.)


I don't make very much grand gesturizations or explanations about what I say, unless, it for some reason or another, it becomes misunderstood at a later point in time (which, as I've seen, comes to happen to me quite often). I speak, write and type as I think it, but in a more refined and paced ponderance of what I actually wish to convey. I famously state that I can hold no more than eight words and their meanings in my head at one time, and for the most part, I believe that to be true. Furthermore, though, I've also instilled in myself from a very early age that there are just some words, phrasings and hackneyed expressions I could never go about using, just because those don't embody who I am, in the least.

I do not say 'what? , huh? , do you know what I mean?, etc.' ever in formal, or even informal conversations. Those types of sophomoric and cliche realizations of a thought which was never mine to begin with actually do not hold even a single tiny spot in the real estate that is my compendium of vocabularium.

I also try innately and with a conscious mind to limit the amounts of times I say 'Hello. , That's awesome. , You're great. , etc.', for fear that, those, too become writte off cliches, but thanks to the marvels that is the internet, and too many instance here on the TFP, those common phrases are all but gone.


This whole diatribe, though, has a point: with the admission of select words in which I find and deem acceptable for use among those that I find capable of understanding, I also try to omit the ones that 'decent company' would find unacceptable. This is the reason I rarely, if ever, curse, for it serves no purpose whatsoever to me to utter a dumb phrase that only means something to someone else, but inherently, it means nothing to me. Additionally, and finally, this is also the reason why I have never uttered a bigoted and blightful phrasing towards any individual, and/or their social affiliations therein.

This comes from an innate awareness from the time and youth I had as a 4-or-5-year-old boy, and actually comprehending what true 'racism' was, better than my own parents understood it.

__________________
As human beings, our greatness lies not so much in being able to remake the world (that is the myth of the Atomic Age) as in being able to remake ourselves.

—Mohandas K. Gandhi

curiousbear

Actually it doesnt matter what I think about these terms. It is rather the environment where I use them. When I am with my close friends who know me, I use such terms very casually. And it never hurts.

Again when I am in the office, I avoid them completely. Because the environment is totally different. So it all depends where and with whom I am talking...

Halx

The gay people I know call themselves fags. However it is considered derogatory if you are not gay and call them one. Same way black people call themselves "niggas" but you're a racist if you're not black and you call them one.

__________________
You have found this post informative.
-The Administrator
[Don't Feed The Animals]

Baraka_Guru

There's definitely an appropriation of terminology going on in the gay community. Well, I think for the most part it's already happened. From what I've observed here, gays and lesbians commonly refer to themselves and each other as "fags," "dykes," and "queers," which were all at one point purely derogatory. I seldom hear "homosexual" or "lesbian," but I will often hear "gay." But "queer" is used way more than "gay," and they seem to have interchangeable meaning.

Also new words are created and used ironically and with humour—"hasbian" for an "ex-lesbian" (i.e. a lesbian who starts up a heterosexual relationship), for example.

So basically we used to have hate spewed at gays with such shouts as "Fag! Dyke! Queer!" Whereas now we have a gay community that proudly uses the very same terminology, as if to say, "Uh, yes, we are homosexual. So I guess we are fags, dykes, and queers. Thank you very much."

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Jinn

It's all about in-group vs out-group. If you're in-group you're allowed to use certain terminology with little repercussion, but if you're out-group its a sign that you're ignorant of the separation or deliberately antagonizing.

It's just like nicknames. If you know someone well enough to call them by a nick name, it's fine. But if some random person hears it and tries to use it, it's awkward at best. If you're "in-group" with someone, it's probably fine to call them a nigga or a dyke or a fag or their nickname. You know whether they'd be offended. But in all cases, none should be used in conversation not directly involving that person.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Salem

I agree with basically everything said so far. There's absolulty an in-group and and out-group balance going on. In my lesbian and bisexual lives class last sumer we talked alot about terminology and how the gay community has "taken back" these terms. Turning queer and fag into positive things, if only within the community itself, but to try and take some of the power away from the put-downs.

I do agree it's hypocritical that you can call someone a fag but when someone else does it it is rude. Same thing as the nigga argument. In some ways I think that if one person is allowed to say it in a NON-hateful way, then others should be able to say it non-hatefully as well. BUT on the flip side, I think maybe it's something you earn. It's a sign of respect in a way, to use terms that are normally used as a hatred and change their meaning. It is sort of like giving someone a nickname. You don't just do it the first time you meet someone, it's gotta be earned, take time.

Cimarron29414

I agree with this. I also think that anyone wishing to maintain respect should never use derogatory words to describe themselves. I'm fine with gay and lesbian....homosexual. Anything else or using "gay" to describe a something other than a joyful event - is harmful to the cause of mutual respect and understanding.

You can't use harmful words in non-harmful ways - it requires looking into someone's soul and judging their intent. That's is impossible to do in the time that your instincts will react to the word from our conditioning. It didn't work for black people, and it won't work for the gay community. I certainly hope you don't think calling each other fags is going to make bigoted straight people stop using the word in a derogatory way. All it's going to do is encourage them.

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

Baraka_Guru

Cimarron, it doesn't work that way. Even in academics, they've moved beyond the label "gay studies" and onto "queer theory." And you have to understand the context under which the labels are used.

I've worked closely with a lesbian for years, and she was quite politically active in the international gay community through in the post-Stonewall period of the '70s and '80s. Also realize that we're both editors. The way that she uses language is telling. She calls gays fags and lesbians dykes as a standard and she does so endearingly.

Appropriation of language works despite the bigots' clinging to their own ignorance and hate. It's one of the many aspects that have given the community its power and freedom.

Now you won't hear me bandying about with those terms, but I assure you it's quite normal for lesbians to refer to themselves as dykes. To them, it's "dyke culture" and "dyke politics." It seems to me that "lesbian" is becoming more of an antiquated and antiseptic descriptor.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Cimarron29414

I'm certain those terms are antiquated, but they are the ones I feel comfortable using. I'm certainly not going to suddenly start calling my gay friends, coworkers, and family "fags". It's just not going to ever happen. In my opinion, it's a misstep to repurpose those words in a positive way. Like I said, it didn't work for the black community...

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

Baraka_Guru

Well, as I mentioned above, it works within the community, rather than outside of it. I'm not about to start calling people fags and dykes either.

"Nigga" vs. "fag/dyke" isn't an equal comparison. Each community has its own set of characteristics, challenges, histories, and events. The problem with the N-word is that it's still highly inflammatory and political, and then you have the problem of gansta rap and other music with values that conflict with the wider community or otherwise problematize the issue. The gay community doesn't have the same problem.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Eilonwy

I agree that it's pretty much okay in-community and not okay outside-community.

What about when someone in-community uses the words both ways, though? Years ago, an African-American commedian (I think it was Chris Rock, but don't quote me on that) did a bit about the differences between "niggas" and "Negros". Basically, the jist of his bit was that the "niggas" give "Negros" a bad name, and are pretty much the dregs and bad part of the black community.

I've also had gay friends that use the word "fag" as endearing between friends but also as a put down for people they felt gave their community a bad name.

Another example would be me telling my good friend she's 'such a bitch' and us laughing together, and then us turning around and calling some female we actually don't like a bitch and meaning it in an entirely different, negative way.

Obviously, there can be different meanings of many words, but does that make it okay? Does it just confuse those around these communities? I do not know... but I can't say I don't participate.

Xerxys

Yeah this is simply why I try not to label anyone and just refer to them whatever is politically acceptable. I find that intentions are hard to convey.

guy44

It's funny too because it depends so much on who you are with. My group of friends includes many gay, queer, bi, etc. people as well as straight folks and amongst us we can get pretty loose with language. We will joke that something is "gay" or how a gay friend is being especially effeminate but its all understood to be inoffensive. But this is only OK because we all know each other and that everyone in the group is completely ok with everyone's sexual orientation.

I would never, ever make a "that's so gay" joke, or joke around about being "gay for X" if I was with people whose views about these topics were unknown to me. Amongst friends, it's all ironic and teasing, but who knows how someone else will perceive it? If a stranger started making those jokes around me I'd probably assume they were homophobic and not that they were so queer friendly that they were joking ironically.

Incidentally, it's the same things with my Jewishness - my friends and I joke all the time about me being a penny pincher or whatever but I'd be on guard if a stranger made the same joke.

__________________
"You have reached Ritual Sacrifice. For goats press one, or say 'goats.'"

Baraka_Guru

Here's an example:
Dyke March :: Pride Week 2010 - June 25th to July 4th
Dyke March :: Guiding Principles :: Pride Week 2010 - June 25th to July 4th

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Strange Famous

I dont think that the word gay is derogitory as a description, but I suppose it isnt nice when people use it as a negative descriptive word

A fag is a cigarette as far as I know, but I think the word faggot is quite offensive, and I wouldnt use it, the same as arse bandit or shirtlifter, etc

I have never really heard the word dyke used in conversation really - although I know it means a manly lesbian. I suppose some lesbians might find it offensive because it implies they are manly when they might think they are feminine but just happen to sexually be attracted to other women, but some lesbians like to act like men - so I suppose it depends.

I find male homosexuality quite hard to get my head round in general. It doesnt offend me or upset me, and I have a few gay mates - but I just cant imagine how it would be to find another man attractive - it just seems inexplicable. I think even if I was kidnapped and drugged and given a sex change against my will I would still be attracted to women. Being a lesbian is probably easier to understand, because obviously women are sexy and attractive (on the whole) in ways that men just cannot be.

And in terms of "terminology"... I think its odd how practising homosexuals often characterize themselves by their sexuality - like they would define themselves as a "gay man" where as I wouldnt define myself as a "straight man".

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Baraka_Guru

Just a clarification, "dyke" (at least here) is interchangeable with "lesbian." The idea that a dyke is "manly" could easily get one into trouble. If you want to specify like that (though I wouldn't necessarily recommend it), it would be "bull dyke" or "butch." Though for a long while "dyke" simply did mean that specifically. It's the changing nature of language.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Salem

And once again, Baraka is spor on. Dyke doesn't mean butch. Bull Dyke does. Butch does. Dyke.. that means dyke. Lesbian, not any type of lesbian just.. lesbian.

Strange Famous

Words carry different meanings in different societies.

On the one hand, some people who are lesbian might want to control what a word means when it relates to them, but popular culture will also play a determining part.

All I can say is you may take "dyke" as meaning simply a lesbian, I would take it to mean certain type of woman who has short hair, does not have a feminine appearance, etc etc.

Which I suppose is what the original question was about - whether terminology is offensive or not.

I remember at uni they had a whole club for people who were "LBGT" (which stands for lesbians, bisexuals, gay and transvestites), and they even used to buy in a special newspaper which was aimed at the "LBGT" people. It wasnt like a dating thing or a singles club, it was just... well I dont really know. A club that was supposed to represent the special interests of practicising or latent homosexuals.

I think all of this sort of thing (like gay pride parades and so on) is just divisive and actually plays up to the stereotypes that prejudiced people have. I would guess I have known personally maybe 10 people who were gay (including my mother) and all of them were just ordinary people really. The whole issue at the basis of this terminology discussion is people either being defined or defining themselves by what gender of person they like to have sex with - and I think that is totally wrong.

Apparently there is actually also offensive termonology that people immersed in practising homosexual culture use for heterosexuals - they use the term "breeder"

I have to say if someone said so to me I would be more baffled than offended.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Baraka_Guru

It would be entirely different if it wasn't at one time illegal/damning/unnatural, etc., to be something other than heterosexual in virtually every facet of society. Now that it's accepted and even celebrated in certain social circles, they have these identifiers as a means of distinguishing from what was once viewed (and for a large part still widely viewed) as "normal," "healthy," and "God's image" (i.e. heterosexuality). And the battles clearly aren't over, which is a huge part of the pride behind the distinguishing identities.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot