terrahurtz

What do you guys think of what this guy says? Is he a total prude? it is VERY VERY conservative.

I think that this guy doesn't seem to believe in the win-win situation. Everything has to be lose-lose. My friend says that the girl has to be a total nut to have to fit into the mold this guy casts.

I believe that although he sounds prudish, it does make sense. You don't want to hurt people in relationships, and girls do tend to get attached. Someone must hurt after a while, unless it was purely physical to begin with.

I also think it depends on the girl in question; how much they get attached, how much they wanted to just use you (for your body, etc), and other factors.


What do you think?

MrFriendly

So this guy is essentially saying, if you get in a relationship, you might get hurt?

I would have thought that was fairly straight forward.

This guy seems to see the world only in terms of black and white, and I think it's sad that he paints relationships with that same brush.

Oh, and to the OP, why do only mention girls getting hurt in relationships? Guys aren't bullet proof either.

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You are not a slave

ratbastid

A great old friend of mine one time told me about the first and only time he's ever been skiing. Big old southern guy, in his mid-fifties, up on the ski slope. He's looking over the edge of a cliff (it's the bunny hill, but to him, it looks like a cliff). People are zipping by. He's standing there terrified. At some point he realizes that he can stand there and have the terror, or he can push off and have the terror and the skiing.

The_Jazz

Meh, seems like it was written by an 18-year old who broke someone's heart and felt guilty about it. There are lots of absolutes in that article and no solutions, at least workable ones. What it offers up is completely unworkable for anyone who's been to college or has a working knowledge of young adult men.

And the whole "stay friends" thing is moronic. Next he'll be calling for arranged marriages so that no one gets hurt. Stupid.

And as Mr Friendly said, there are two parties in the relationship.

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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

little_tippler

^ratbastid speaks wisely, as usual

it's like saying, I won't do anything in my life that is risky because there will be pain of some sort involved. We might as well just die already.

Love may hurt, but I'd take that hurt every day over being alone my entire life with no-one to share any physical or emotional intimacy of that kind with.

Pain is a way of knowing you're alive...fear can be overcome. And you can learn from the hurt...or you can dwell in it forever like this guy.

__________________
Whether we write or speak or do but look
We are ever unapparent. What we are
Cannot be transfused into word or book.
Our soul from us is infinitely far.
However much we give our thoughts the will
To be our soul and gesture it abroad,
Our hearts are incommunicable still.
In what we show ourselves we are ignored.
The abyss from soul to soul cannot be bridged
By any skill of thought or trick of seeming.
Unto our very selves we are abridged
When we would utter to our thought our being.
We are our dreams of ourselves, souls by gleams,
And each to each other dreams of others' dreams.

Fernando Pessoa, 1918

MrFriendly

Without having truly known pain, how can one truly know joy?

This will sound cliche, well, because it is cliche, but the dude was on the money. It's better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all.

Guy who wrote the piece just needs to grow some stones.

__________________
You are not a slave

Nisses

Like MrFriendly said: written by somebody relatively young, alot of extremes and no workable solutions.

Woe is him.



Ratbastid: he's actually advocating not going up on that mountain at all. Just talk with people about the mountain and imagine the terror, that's bad enough it seems. :S

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Moderation should be moderately moderated.

Cynthetiq

are you talking about a mountain?!??!?!??! EEEEK!!!

:hides under table:

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terrahurtz

Hmm seems like you guys all mostly agree. I agree that trying should be worth something, and if you never try then whats the point of living ehhh?

You guys mention that there are working solutions in the medium between the extremes. What kind of solutions would these be..? Seems to me that they would be ephemeral rather than long-term..

mixedmedia

I've really never been in the 'dating scene' but from what I've observed rarely is it painful for people at all. Only when love and commitment come into play, but that does not happen with every single person you date. I really don't understand what the guy is so afraid of.

Also, for all the threads I've read here concerning guys and the women that break their hearts, I'd say that the pain ratio is about 50/50.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Starshine

Pffft, if everyone took this guys view on "either stay friends or get married so you don't get hurt" we wouldn't have half the music and art in the world. Relationships with others inspire and it's worth it whether it's joyful inspiration or painful inspiration. IMO.

If everyone ever followed this guy's idea of "stay friends or get married or you'll get hurt" we wouldn't have half of the music and art in this world. Relationships with others inspire and whether it be joyful inspiration or painful, it's completely worth it, IMO.

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I fly like paper, get high like planes

The_Jazz

Other solutions? Why, growing a set of balls would be a great start.

Seriously, getting dumped, dumping others and trying to figure out if you getting ready to get dumped are parts of modern life. They help us grow and reveal character.

As I see it, there are two basic ways to find yourself a mate - do it yourself or let someone else do it for you. If you chose the latter, then that means that your parents or relatives are going to marry you off to whomever they chose for whatever reasons they chose. Some of those marriages work, others not so much. And sorry, but my kids are responsible for their own happiness. I don't want that burden.

If you're going to do it yourself, which seems to be what your friend is advocating, you actually have to do it. If we followed his advice, friends would propose to each other, sometimes out of the blue. This board is riddled with threads about unrequited love. There's a very scary one out there involving a gun and a ring. Yes, people should be friends before getting married, but part of getting to know each other and becoming friends is called "dating" by those of us grounded in the real world. Honestly, I didn't want my friends around when my wife and I were dating. I just wanted her around and have her all to myself.

What your friend has proposed is a big ol' mess of unworkable mess. I don't see any way to ever translate it to reality.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Nisses

And it had fangs and blood-shot eyes! and it liked to eat little Cynth's, table and all!!

__________________
Moderation should be moderately moderated.

grumpyolddude

Wow, the guy who wrote the article sounds like he's afraid of life, generally. Taking a step may start a journey, and who knows where that may lead?! Better to stay inside where it's safe.

I dated several girls, both before and after I met QW. They didn't all end well... a couple were rather gut wrenching, for both parties. Through those relationships, however, I was able to refine my perspective. I gained valuable insight into what I was really seeking in a life partner, and I learned how to "work" at relationships. This was a key part of my personal maturation process, and without those experiences, my 28+ year rollercoaster ride with QW would never have been possible.

Now, I've been witnessing my children's joy and heartache. They are making both good and bad (from my perspective) choices, and, I believe, learning the same lessons that I did. These lessons, if they heed them, will serve them well.

But, our friend, the article author, will have none of that! Dating is for "suckers" and it's best to sit tight until Ms. Right knocks on your door and introduces herself. I hope he finds mental laxative. As it stands, he's a pitiful, lonely loser

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Jinn

The author..

I disagree categorically with his position, and tend instead to live by a great quote from one of the best movies of all time, Princess Bride:

Buttercup: You mock my pain.
Westley: Life is pain, Highness. Anyone who says differently is selling something.

So what is relationships are painful? Good ones outproduce the pain with pleasure, and bad ones are fleeting.

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repeater

I agree with most people that have posted so far - pain sucks but it's not something that we need to avoid at all costs. Having your heart broken, or breaking someone's heart, are things that I think everyone should go through. It can drastically change your life but sometimes for the better. It makes you grow, it gives you perspective and it shows you that you can get over just about anything.

Also - I don't think anyone's mentioned the physical aspect of the original post - but I think not being physical before marriage is a horrible idea. I don't mean to say that you have to have sex before marriage - but I think it's a good idea. Learning how to be physical with someone is almost as important as learning how to be there with them emotionally.

Things can hurt - but learning from pain is good.

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When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
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MSD

He's telling you're going to be miserable or you're going to find happiness. There are midpoints, and you can learn from mistakes.

What he's advocating is either doing it right the first time or not doing it at all, which is as bad as failure in my mind.

terrahurtz

I see. Yup, I agree with the points you guys make -- that you just gotta step over that hill, dont look back, go for it, and basically you gotta just try it out.


What's funny is yesterday i went to speak to a counselor and he told me that he felt that I was taking an all-or-nothing approach to life -- academics, relationships, friendships, life in general. He also said I was a perfectionist.

This relates to the thread because I posted the original quote because even though I know its a prudish, "dumb" stance, I had at points felt in agreement. For me, its mostly because none of the girls I meet who I actually can date (the ones that actually show an interest in me instead of simply blowing me off with excuses) are actually ever up to my standards taht I would want to try something more with them..

You guys say that you should just step forward and move ahead and give it a try -- but obviously this is assuming you feel ALOT of initial attraction towards the girl. For me, its always the girls who I don't have much attraction who are attracted to me. And moving ahead and giving it a try with these girls, I feel that its just a disaster to begin with. Why step out and try if you see the end in sight already? But here I have already warped you guys' points.. you refer to the ones you are highly attracted to, to begin with, right?

Or, is it part of my "all-or-nothing" approach to life that even makes me believe there's an "end" in sight, with the girls i dont find up to my standards? or am i just being pragmatic in a good way.. hmmm

savmesom11

Very wise! In addition I have ended plenty of relationships that didn't result in heartbreak and actually still hold special places in my heart today. Its not just about the lessons we learn from them but the memories we take away. There are many hobbies I enjoy everyday because they were introduced to me by someone I was dating. Even the relationships that ended bad have worth and meaning. I actually feel sorry for the author; one day he will wake up and realize he slept through this whole "living" thing.

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* I do not believe that struggles are a sign of life falling apart, but rather a step of life falling into place. *

mixedmedia

I love love! And any amount of pain is worth every second I am allowed to bask in it's good graces!

On another note...

Go here and read this:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=136616

And vote!



ooh, yeah, baby...I feel love....makes me wanna...VOTE!

/end threadjack

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

grumpyolddude

The day I met QW, she was sitting in the student union with a friend who had long, beautiful dark hair, a slender, bombshell body and a dazzling smile. I had met the friend once before, and was immensely attracted to her. She felt none of that towards me, as it turned out, although we did become good friends.

While I initially sat with them to pursue my ill-fated flirtations with the friend, what really happened was that I made the acquaintence of the sweetest person I'd ever met, and who had almost none of the physical "requirements" that I had convinced myself that I couldn't do without. She was less tall, had shorter hair, was more shy and self deprecating than anyone I had ever been with. She wore glasses, had a minor case of acne, and was struggling to lose a few last pounds. She must have been around the campus, but I never did, nor imagined that I would have, given her the first notice. She didn't fit my "standards."

"Marge" did me the biggest favor of my life: She blew me off! And because of that, I found the greatest treasure of my life! My wonderful, precious QW. (Dammit, terrahurtz, ya got me blowing my cover! I'm the "grumpyolddude," fer kristsakes!)

Do yourself a solid. Stop chasing the "trophy" girlfriend quite so exclusively. Certainly, one or two of those girls who show an interest in you aren't total, hideous ogres. You don't have to make a commitment. Just play nice and get to know them a bit. Show your socialble side. You might find a diamond in the rough.... or she may have a really hot friend

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"Regret can be a harder pill to swallow than failure .With failure you at least know you gave it a chance..." David Howard

terrahurtz

Thanks for that advice. This past 2 weeks I met 2 girls, 1 i was 60-70% interested in and one that I was 20% interested in. The first one blew me off (She lost interest) and the 2nd one I had to break it to her I just want to be friends (after she asked me if she could kiss me).

You never get what you want.. ehh ? lol

grumpyolddude

Don't get me wrong, T. I'm not suggesting that you toss out all of your expectations. I'm merely advocating a slightly less rigid mindset.

There's another thread started concerning attraction and personality. The right personality can trump a whole host of physical flaws, but you've got to be open to getting to know the person.

On the other hand, some physical characteristics can be a total deal-breaker. You've got to get out and find those boundaries. They will be different for each of us... and, quite possibly, for each potential partner we come across.

Here's hoping you find someone to have some fun with, even for the short term. The long term tends to take care of itself for someone open to it.

__________________
"Regret can be a harder pill to swallow than failure .With failure you at least know you gave it a chance..." David Howard