The America Fan Club - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

xepherys · 12-05-2005, 10:30 AM

Alright, this has been something on my mind for a long time, and I'm looking for advice, banter and cheers of truthful joy.

I'd be interested in starting a very moderate, pro-America political activist group. My views have become increasingly centrist over the years, and looking back through history, the varying opinions to the left and the right have always balanced out rather well. Nowadays, however, the left is claiming territories on my freedom of speech and expression that I don't much care for. The right is claiming victory in campaigns against my civil rights that I'm also not a fan of. Since both sides are winning, I can truly see America starting to tear at the seems. The downfall of the Roman Empire (literally) started with just such political agendas. I believe that all good Americans need to band together to stop the bipartisan insanity and reform a better, stronger America that truly is in line with our roots.

I've been reading a lot of pro-right literature lately. "Why the Left Hates America" and "The 100 People Who Are Screwing Up America". They all make EXCELLENT points about the left, political correctness gone astray and the terrible crap that tromps around in our nation's academia these days. While I've yet to pick up any pro-left reading material, let me say that I plan to, and I will probably agree with much of it as well. Hence a moderate (I believe moderate would be the correct term here... maybe I'm wrong as it could be fundamental) centrist view and hopes.

This country has gone to the shitter rather rapidly form a social perspective lately. Political correctness for one has really entered into this scenario. Read "Why the Left Hates America" and you'll get several good exmaples in the first chapter about PC running amuck in college campuses across the country. Several have ended with public outcry that has remedied the situations, but the occurance itself is the concern. Sure, we're a melting pot. We have people from all of the world, with different backgrounds, skills, colors of skin. Why do we want so badly for everyone to be EXACTLY the same. We are not a clone army. We are a nation of variety. We should bask in that fact, rather than try to escape it like a pig from a slaughter house. If I am pro-America, and I say so on a college campus, and the Syrian exchange student feels threatened... well, that's on them. If I'm not threatening them, but speaking about the terrible aspects of terrorism and such, that should be my right. I also agree it is someone else's right to say "we deserved it", though I really think those people need to get the hell out of my country, even if they're natives.

Do I think America is perfect? Far from it, but the bullshit going on in the name of making our country better, is only making it worse, and slowly sapping the life from it.

What can we do? Seriously? Discussing it here is great, but it has no real effect on anything. I'd rather not have to leave to another country in 40 years because it's unsafe to live here anymore, either due to outside threats, or inside, government threats. It's becoming a scary place, and that horror is very well hidden from the public eye in many cases.

Willravel · 12-05-2005, 11:52 AM

Well, as someone living in the thick of "the left", I can say that I love the United States. I just have a different way of showing that love and supporting my country than other people, people on "the right" for example. Can you give specific examples of how political correctness is going to lead to a Roman-esque fall?

Allow me to break down something I found from the book "Why the Left Hates America"...

Quote:

Myth #1: American women live under patriarchy

This book insinuates that the left is putting fourth an adgenda that states that women are still not considered to be socially equal. The author of "Why the Left Hates America" disagrees. Now, as someone who knows that equality is a never ending firhgt, let me share some things with eveyone.
-Women still only make 67 cents to one dollar that men make for doing the same job with the same qualifications in the US. http://www.nwlc.org/details.cfm?id=2...ion=infocenter
Does every woman in the US do a worse job than a man, thus deserving less money? Of course not. Statistics show that a woman can do just as well as a man if given comparable experience and education. Of course, women are not asked to only pay 76% of their rent or 76% of their grocery bills.
-Only 14 Senators are currently female, we've never had a female president

Quote:

Myth # 2: America's the World's leading threat to the environment

We are.

Quote:

The US contains 4% of the world's population but produces about 25% of all carbon dioxide emissions. By comparison, Britain emits 3% - about the same as India which has 15 times as many people.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1820523.stm

Quote:

The US pollutes more, absolutely and per head, than any other country (it also produces more wealth). Its greenhouse emissions have risen by more than 11% since 1990: its Kyoto commitment was to reduce them by 6%. It is the only country to have signed the protocol and then to have repudiated it. President Bush said in March the US would not ratify Kyoto, because he thought it could damage the US economy and because it does not yet require developing countries to cut their emissions. His domestic and foreign critics think the US will lose economically by staying aloof.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sta...change/usa.stm

Quote:

Myth # 3: America is a racist nation

Quote:

Recent surveys indicate that 66% of whites and 71% of African-Americans support the ethnic profiling of people who look to be of middle-eastern descent.

http://www.scu.edu/ethics/publications/ethicalperspectives/profiling.html

Quote:

-Approximately thirty-two million Americans, a number equivalent to the population of Canada, report they have already been victims of racial profiling.
-Approximately eighty-seven million Americans are at a high risk of being subjected to future racial profiling during their lifetime.
-Racial profiling directly affects Native Americans, Asian Americans, Hispanic Americans, African Americans, Arab Americans, Persian Americans, American Muslims, many immigrants and visitors, and, under certain circumstances, white Americans.
-Racial profiling happens to both women and men, affects all age groups, is used against people from all socio-economic backgrounds, and occurs in rural, suburban, and urban areas.
-Racial profiling of citizens and visitors of Middle Eastern and South Asian descent, and others who appear to be from these areas or members of the Muslim and Sikh faiths, has substantially increased since September 11, 2001.

and later in the article...

Quote:

Forty-six states do not ban racial profiling based on religion or religious appearance.
Thirty-five states do not ban racial profiling of pedestrians (and the majority of the fifteen states that do, use a definition of racial profiling that makes the ban virtually unenforceable in most circumstances).
The scope of Tennessee’s current racial profiling law is so limited that it only pertains to the conditions under which fingerprint records are obtained.
In June 2003, the Department of Justice issued its Guidance Regarding the Use of Race by Federal Law Enforcement Agencies forbidding racial profiling by federal law enforcement officials. Yet, the guidance does not cover profiling based on religion, religious appearance, or national origin; does not apply to state or local law enforcement agencies; does not include any enforcement mechanisms; does not specify punishment for violating officers/agencies; and contains a blanket exception for “national security” and “border integrity” cases. The Guidance is an advisory, and hence is not legally binding.
On February 27, 2001, President Bush said, “racial profiling is wrong” and promised to “end it in America.” Yet, almost four years later he has failed to support any federal legislative effort to eliminate racial profiling in the United States.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/racial_profiling/report/

Locobot · 12-05-2005, 12:03 PM

I sense that you feel persecuted but I'm not sure why. Have you actually tried going on a college campus and telling people you're pro-American? Or are you too scared to even attempt something so mundane? Are you not equally afraid that the response might be positive instead of negative? That would certainly take the wind out of your sails! The pervading attitude on university campuses is apathy-towards everything. I'd be surprised and pleased if you got any response at all.

I think even people on the right will find your reading list thus far to be facile and superficial. I hope you put a little more effort and thought into constructing your "left" reading list.

Political correctness is not one of the chief threats to the U.S. In fact I fail to see how it is a threat at all. Sure there have been some wacky and just plain stupid incarnations, but there is a basic concept that is valid and backed by scientific findings. Check out the comprehension rates of gender-neutral texts sometime. If people wish to be referred to as "african-american" instead of "negro" then it makes sense on any number of levels to respect that nomenclature.

How do you propose to create a group that supports Americans' right to speak their mind, but if they say the wrong thing they need to "get the hell out of your country?"

Charlatan · 12-05-2005, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xepherys

I also agree it is someone else's right to say "we deserved it", though I really think those people need to get the hell out of my country, even if they're natives.

You would both defend their right to say something and then sensure them by way of deportation? Not very centrist.

Ustwo · 12-05-2005, 12:46 PM

While it would be easy to point counter point willravel, thats not the point of the thread and I don't feel the need to defend 'the right'. Many things are indeed wrong with the right (though I would argue that civil liberties is not one of them unless you are homosexual or drug user) and obviously there are many things wrong with the left.

I think the problem you will find is that in order to have a support base you need people who feel strongly for the cause. Its easy to find young skulls full of mush to get to work for the left, look at any WTO meeting for that. Its a bit harder to find such mush on the right unless you go to the religious groups (which in turn I think is the main problem for the right) but such energy can be found. With this you have your core believers, your volunteers, your pamphlet handerouters, your vote drivers, your foot soldiers.

Try to get a lot of people excited about being moderate. What would they shout 'YOU ARE BOTH RIGHT AND I'M FIGHTING MAD ABOUT IT!' Or 'HELL NO WE WILL GO BUT ONLY WITH PREDEFINED OBJECTIVES!'?

Bottom line, its hard for people to get energized being moderate.

xepherys · 12-05-2005, 12:49 PM

I do not feel persecuted at all. In fact, I am very firm in my beliefs. It simply saddens me that so many on both ends of the spectrum fight for things that have nothing to do with making our country better, but rather things that just flesh out their "partisan" agendas. As for college campuses, the exmaples I've seen have come from reputable sources, books and news articles. I have not experienced it first hand, as my college experience ended in the late 90's, and most peopl, under a flourishing economy, were very happy to be pro-America. I've heard and/or seen enough examples, though, of political correctness causing freedom of speech and expression issues on college campuses acorss the country. Administrators are too afraid to let a middle-class, white Christian express his feelings on the terrorist acts of 9/11 to let it be really pushed (say in a rally or school news article) for fear that they will offend middle eastern students. Sure, this is not always the case, but it should NEVER be the case in academia. Expression and thought are what higher education is all about. In several other instances, students of ethnic decent (non-white) that SHOULD'VE been punished for acts commited in violation of actual laws have been let off for fear of causing a "racist" outcry. It's bullshit!

I'm not afriad of either positive or negative response to my beliefs. They are what they are. If someone disagrees, so be it. I suppose you are right in that I'd rather someone act out against my beliefs than be apathetic.

As I said, I'm looking for suggestions on pro-left, anti-right books as well. I do not consider myself part of the right at all. I think the right has a tremendous religious agenda that has no business in politics. I think that their general belief that ALL public assistance from the government is undeserved or generally a bad thing is also ridiculous. I am in no way bashing the left to hold up the right. I'm bashing both for trying to push the house down.

I do believe that political correctness is a serious threat to our society, probably in much the same way that the French feel foreign words are a threat to their culture. Our society is built on some certian basic principles. Pandering to the squeakiest wheel has NOT been one of them until recently. Lobbying hard as a group is one thing, whining that every little thing that doesn't go your way is racist or sexist is shite. Can anyone argue against that fact? Some black people DON'T want to be called African-American. Am I supposed to have people fill out a survey before I talk to them so I know how they prefer to be addressed? Also, note that this is American black culture. Blacks in England are not so ridiculously uptight about this shit. If that sounds racist... well it's not. It's just how things are. I grew up near Detroit. I've had black friends, I've known black families. A lot of them are just like any white family, or chinese family or indian family. They want to work and have things. They want to go to school, spend time with family, eat dinner and watch a movie. They want to go out with friends. They want to play some Xbox. The color of skin has nothing to do with it... it's the bullshit attitudes that people think they are entitled to have BECAUSE of the color of their skin that makes racism prevelant in today's America. *shrug*

Again, it's not a matter of the right or wrong thing... but people who openly bash everything that is American, our policies our attitude the fact that we have too much money or too much food or too much freedom or too much of anything else... well then why are they still here. I certianly wouldn't support legalized deportation of idiots who think this way... I just don't understand the concept of them staying when they are free to leave. It's not like Communist Russia in the 60s when you'd get shot before you'd be allowed to emigrate. People just like to bitch, I think... which is why I'd like to have some sort of ability to change things. I don't want to just bitch... I want to make progress.

It's not just attitudes or political correctness. It's also education, apathy, and people's generaly inability to be useful these days. I know historically there was a time not too long ago where the US educated some of the finest minds in science, business, et cetera. Do we still? If so, I've not encountered it much. Businesses are getting too greedy. Sure, in a capitalist society, that is certianly their right. But to outsource work, sell out to cheaper labor outside of the country... it's not good for the country they are getting rich in. It's sad is all. If we had more nationalistic pride (not to sound too socialist or anything) and a bit of patriotism, maybe things would be better. Why doesn't the government fund NASA more? Oh, because it has a huge inflated bloated payroll because of all the hand-shaking and back-scratch and ass-wiping that politicians do these days.

At any rate, I never said anything about deporting people I disagree with. That would be counter to my point. I just don't understand saying that the whole place sucks ass then staying put and doing nothing more than complaining. I, for one, don't think the whole place sucks. I love my country... I just don't like a LOT of my fellow countrymen (and countrywomen for those of you in the PC crowd). And i don't just want to bitch about it... which is why I asked for ideas at the beginning of the thread.

Charlatan · 12-05-2005, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Bottom line, its hard for people to get energized being moderate.

This is true, except at the polls.

If the US had something like a centrist party it would get elected.

Ustwo · 12-05-2005, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

This is true, except at the polls.

If the US had something like a centrist party it would get elected.

I don't think so, a centrist TICKET could get elected, but only because of the fringe support.

The way things are set up the only thing a centrist party would do is screw whichever party they were closer too, mostly like the Republicans (see Ross Perot).

Willravel · 12-05-2005, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xepherys

I do not feel persecuted at all. In fact, I am very firm in my beliefs. It simply saddens me that so many on both ends of the spectrum fight for things that have nothing to do with making our country better, but rather things that just flesh out their "partisan" agendas. As for college campuses, the exmaples I've seen have come from reputable sources, books and news articles. I have not experienced it first hand, as my college experience ended in the late 90's, and most peopl, under a flourishing economy, were very happy to be pro-America. I've heard and/or seen enough examples, though, of political correctness causing freedom of speech and expression issues on college campuses acorss the country. Administrators are too afraid to let a middle-class, white Christian express his feelings on the terrorist acts of 9/11 to let it be really pushed (say in a rally or school news article) for fear that they will offend middle eastern students. Sure, this is not always the case, but it should NEVER be the case in academia. Expression and thought are what higher education is all about. In several other instances, students of ethnic decent (non-white) that SHOULD'VE been punished for acts commited in violation of actual laws have been let off for fear of causing a "racist" outcry. It's bullshit!

I'm afraid I have to disagree. For all of America's history, the white preotestant has had a very loud voice. What we are seeing is a paradigm shift that hit stride with the civil rights movement and still continues today. Because the white protestand American sees his (my) words not havign the same value as they once had, you assume that they have no meaning or are withheald out of some fear. In my experience, if someone has something to say they say it. If someone wants to say something racist, they say it. They usualyl get called a racist for it, but that doesn't take away from their voice. There is a difference bewteen stating in an article, "Arab terrorists could be a danger to American citizens abroad, and even possibly domestically", and, "Arabs are terrorits." I've seen both, and I think that they each were recieved correctly. It is true that a small fringe group within the arab people can be dangerous because their beliefs include violence towards those that they feel threatened from. Statement one is refering to that. Statement two, however, is wrong and racist. Racits statements oplay to peoples misunderstandings and stereotypes, and do not further understanding, but in fact hinder it. All arabs are not terrorists, in fact only a very, very small precentage is. It has less to do with political correctness and more to do with exaggerating a point in order to spread hate and misunderstanding. I ask you to point out a case in which "students of ethnic decent (non-white) that SHOULD'VE been punished for acts commited in violation of actual laws have been let off for fear of causing a "racist" outcry." I can't think of any.

This isn't about right or left, it is about right and wrong.

Charlatan · 12-05-2005, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

I don't think so, a centrist TICKET could get elected, but only because of the fringe support.

The way things are set up the only thing a centrist party would do is screw whichever party they were closer too, mostly like the Republicans (see Ross Perot).

Possibly, but then I'm looking at the multi-party system in Canada where the centrists are elected time and again... The US popular vote may be too right of centre to elect a centrist government.

Willravel · 12-05-2005, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

Possibly, but then I'm looking at the multi-party system in Canada where the centrists are elected time and again... The US popular vote may be too right of centre to elect a centrist government.

Don't forget that Bush won by only a very small margin. We're practically 50/50 down here. It just seems like we're really right because the right controls all three branches of our governmnet.

samcol · 12-05-2005, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

This is true, except at the polls.

If the US had something like a centrist party it would get elected.

The centrists already get elected, I call them the democrats and republicans. Almost everything that is bad for America both parties vote for Iraq war, Patriot Act, massive budgets. There's nothing good about being in the center except for wishy washy voting that goes with whatevers popular at time.

Charlatan · 12-05-2005, 01:31 PM

Quote:

The color of skin has nothing to do with it... it's the bullshit attitudes that people think they are entitled to have BECAUSE of the color of their skin that makes racism prevelant in today's America. *shrug*

Sorry, I just want to be clear... did you just blame all racism (or the general prevelance of racism) on blacks? I just want to be clear.

highthief · 12-05-2005, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samcol

The centrists already get elected, I call them the democrats and republicans. Almost everything that is bad for America both parties vote for Iraq war, Patriot Act, massive budgets. There's nothing good about being in the center except for wishy washy voting that goes with whatevers popular at time.

I agree with that - there isn't that much difference between the 2 parties.

I would imagine that the Libertarians, if they could get a little more attention and star power behind them, might eventually have a shot at being a true politcal power in the US.

Charlatan · 12-05-2005, 01:59 PM

Highthief... while I agree that they could become a political power, the Libertarians are hardly centrist. While they have the gloss of Social Liberals with their anything goes attitude towards sex, drugs and rock 'n' roll, their economic policies more than just fiscally conservative... they are extremely right wing.

Will: While I recognize the situation is 50/50 I think my problem was that I was comparing apples to oranges... The entire US spectrum is over on the Right wing compared to most other nations spectrums (i.e. our conservatives are more like your right leaning dems).

On further reflection, I really don't think the US will ever bring another party into the mix. The system just doesn't seem to allow for anyone but the Dems and Republicans (oddities like Reform are blips).

xepherys · 12-05-2005, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samcol

The centrists already get elected, I call them the democrats and republicans. Almost everything that is bad for America both parties vote for Iraq war, Patriot Act, massive budgets. There's nothing good about being in the center except for wishy washy voting that goes with whatevers popular at time.

That is not correct. Centrists are not wishy washy. They simply have views that do not align with the extreme aspects of either wing of political views. I am not wishy washy in my beliefs at all. I do, however, believe in some comproimses. I believe that the government is too involved in some societal programs (welfare) while not involved enough in others (education). I don't believe in large or small government... I believe in a government that is representative and supportive of its citizenry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by charlatan

Sorry, I just want to be clear... did you just blame all racism (or the general prevelance of racism) on blacks? I just want to be clear.

No, I did not. That was an example of a place where the minority group does, however, have a tendancy to shed light upon themselves which is counter-productive to their intentions. It's not just blacks, and it's not just that example. Some racism is racism out of white ignorance or japanese hatred...

Quote:

Originally Posted by highthief

I agree with that - there isn't that much difference between the 2 parties.

I would imagine that the Libertarians, if they could get a little more attention and star power behind them, might eventually have a shot at being a true politcal power in the US.

I disagree... I see a considerable difference between the two. I've also tended to vote Libertarian a lot in recent years (including voting for Badnarik). Libertarians are fairly centrist in many of their views... I'll give them that. This also brings up another point regarding American politicds that I've made elsewhere... people don't vote their conscience. If they did, we'd not likely have a two-party system. A two-party system is only slightly better than a one-party system. I voted for Badnarik because I thought he was the best candidate. I don't like Bush. I don't like Kerry. I wouldn't vote for one or the other JUST to try to keep the one out of office... that, IMHO, is the only truly wasted vote. I'd almost rather people NOT vote than vote out of "partisan obligation".

host · 12-06-2005, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xepherys

I disagree... I see a considerable difference between the two. I've also tended to vote Libertarian a lot in recent years (including voting for Badnarik). Libertarians are fairly centrist in many of their views... I'll give them that. This also brings up another point regarding American politicds that I've made elsewhere... people don't vote their conscience. If they did, we'd not likely have a two-party system. A two-party system is only slightly better than a one-party system. I voted for Badnarik because I thought he was the best candidate. I don't like Bush. I don't like Kerry. I wouldn't vote for one or the other JUST to try to keep the one out of office... that, IMHO, is the only truly wasted vote. I'd almost rather people NOT vote than vote out of "partisan obligation".

You seem to have missed the point that the top priority of all Americans is to preserve the system of checks and balances that were designed into our contitution. After five years of one party rule of the federal government, the only remnants of checks and balances that still attempt to preserve accountability are career justice department officials who are investigating and indicting lawbreakers in a methodical and non-partisan way.

Partisanship and the sharing of power that informed voters who vote in their actual best interests, promote, preserve the structure that does make America great. A congress that fails to investigate it's own ethics violations and the wrongdoing of the executive branch, and political appointments to high courts who are willing to rubber stamp gross violations to citizen rights, as in the Bush administation's deprivation of equal justice, under the law, of Jose Padilla, could only exist in a system distorted by one party rule.

The political system works best when the minority party is voted enough representation to hold the majority power accounable. This requires that at least one house of congress be controlled by the minority party. Protest votes for third party candidates do not preserve checks and balances.

ubertuber · 12-06-2005, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by host

You seem to have missed the point that the top priority of all Americans is to preserve the system of checks and balances that were designed into our contitution.

Looks like a typo - as I remember the last election, the top priority was definitely NOT to preserve checks and balances, it was to beat the other side even in a scorched earth scenario. Perhaps you meant to include the words "should be". Of course, this would still be only your opinion and not an established fact.

Quote:

Originally Posted by host

Protest votes for third party candidates do not preserve checks and balances.

Host, your dismissal of third party alternatives as "protest votes" reminds me of the first four words of something I once read...

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." - Ghandi

Do you really believe that the Republican control over both houses of Congress and the White House is because of third party voters? I ask this honestly, not out of a disingenuous debating tactic. If you really think this, I'm sure you have reasons, and I'd appreciate a few links by PM so I can read up on it myself. Until then, I'll continue to think that the current political climate is due to the 2 parties that dominate the discourse, not the little guys who aren't even allowed to participate in the debates.

Ustwo · 12-06-2005, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

Possibly, but then I'm looking at the multi-party system in Canada where the centrists are elected time and again... The US popular vote may be too right of centre to elect a centrist government.

Maybe but our system is a winner take all type of system which is good because it leads to more stability, but bad because it leads to less chance for change.

pan6467 · 12-06-2005, 01:25 PM

I love how the Right keeps saying "if you don't agree with us you hate America". Kind of like saying, "your opinion doesn't matter because you're wrong and the country would be better off without you."

Neither side hates America, if they did they wouldn't truly be here. The problem is each side has a differing view as to how to help society. The Dems. lean more towards social structure and trying to build a better future. The GOP tend to lean toward big business and a status quo at the least (more often they work for a regression).

It basically comes down to how you believe society and the nation can be better. Both sides make good points, both sides have issues where they excel. Hence being moderate. The nation is primarily centrist, a study once showed 30% diehard Dems 30% diehard GOP and 40% middle of the road socially liberal, fiscally conservative.

The media and members on each side would like you to believe they are in the majority of every issue, but it is impossible. The only reason they do this is to try to get a majority of that 40% so that they can win elections. Noone wants to feel in "minority" so the psychological factors play into the politician's hands and they use it every way they can to their advantage.

If all you do is read one side and form your opinions on just that one side, then yes, the other side to you will always be wrong. And if you really get all your info from extreme radical biased media (Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Coulter, Moore, Springer, etc.) then your views truly becomes very one dimensional and myopic. And the inherent hate shows.

The people who speak and yell the loudest only do so to intimidate and persuade, facts be damned.

It's like listening to the Right claim the Dem's rely solely on the black for support and how the party sold the blacks a bill of goods and blah blah blah....... yet they don't tell you they did the same with the religious right in their party. "We'll gladly be pro-life and Bible, if you give us your support.... just support all our other issues." Both sides do it equally and just as well as the other.

The penduluum swings though and polls and attitudes show that it has swung about as far right as it will so now it will start swinging left again. That's just the way this country is and how it has always operated.

IMHO history shows Left = change Right = regression ........ Change comes and starts moving too fast then regression is needed to counterbalance it. Look at our history and you'll see as things change we regress then swing back and gain more change.... and so on. For the progression Teddy Roosevelt (and in today's world he would be a liberal) made came the regressions with Taft and Wilson. Change came with FDR and then Ike came along and regression, JFK came and change occured, Nixon came regression..... and so on.

But never has the hatred and partisan politics been this bad..... so the fear now becomes one party gaining the momentum naturally and holding onto it unnaturally, through fear, trying hard to sell the idea that the other side is unpatriotic and "hates America", and so on. But even that won't last long as it is eventually the biggest sign the penduluum and control is being shifted to the other side.

(And yes, the Left did this also when they knew they were losing momentum and the penduluum was swinging the other way.)

aswo · 12-06-2005, 02:37 PM

Civil Liberty, Free Market, Peace

VOTE LIBERTARIAN

Willravel · 12-06-2005, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aswo

Civil Liberty, Free Market, Peace

VOTE LIBERTARIAN

Comon, you can do better than that.

12-05-2005, 10:30 AM	#1 (permalink)
xepherys <3 TFP Location: 17TLH2445607250	The America Fan Club Alright, this has been something on my mind for a long time, and I'm looking for advice, banter and cheers of truthful joy. I'd be interested in starting a very moderate, pro-America political activist group. My views have become increasingly centrist over the years, and looking back through history, the varying opinions to the left and the right have always balanced out rather well. Nowadays, however, the left is claiming territories on my freedom of speech and expression that I don't much care for. The right is claiming victory in campaigns against my civil rights that I'm also not a fan of. Since both sides are winning, I can truly see America starting to tear at the seems. The downfall of the Roman Empire (literally) started with just such political agendas. I believe that all good Americans need to band together to stop the bipartisan insanity and reform a better, stronger America that truly is in line with our roots. I've been reading a lot of pro-right literature lately. "Why the Left Hates America" and "The 100 People Who Are Screwing Up America". They all make EXCELLENT points about the left, political correctness gone astray and the terrible crap that tromps around in our nation's academia these days. While I've yet to pick up any pro-left reading material, let me say that I plan to, and I will probably agree with much of it as well. Hence a moderate (I believe moderate would be the correct term here... maybe I'm wrong as it could be fundamental) centrist view and hopes. This country has gone to the shitter rather rapidly form a social perspective lately. Political correctness for one has really entered into this scenario. Read "Why the Left Hates America" and you'll get several good exmaples in the first chapter about PC running amuck in college campuses across the country. Several have ended with public outcry that has remedied the situations, but the occurance itself is the concern. Sure, we're a melting pot. We have people from all of the world, with different backgrounds, skills, colors of skin. Why do we want so badly for everyone to be EXACTLY the same. We are not a clone army. We are a nation of variety. We should bask in that fact, rather than try to escape it like a pig from a slaughter house. If I am pro-America, and I say so on a college campus, and the Syrian exchange student feels threatened... well, that's on them. If I'm not threatening them, but speaking about the terrible aspects of terrorism and such, that should be my right. I also agree it is someone else's right to say "we deserved it", though I really think those people need to get the hell out of my country, even if they're natives. Do I think America is perfect? Far from it, but the bullshit going on in the name of making our country better, is only making it worse, and slowly sapping the life from it. What can we do? Seriously? Discussing it here is great, but it has no real effect on anything. I'd rather not have to leave to another country in 40 years because it's unsafe to live here anymore, either due to outside threats, or inside, government threats. It's becoming a scary place, and that horror is very well hidden from the public eye in many cases.

12-05-2005, 12:46 PM	#5 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	While it would be easy to point counter point willravel, thats not the point of the thread and I don't feel the need to defend 'the right'. Many things are indeed wrong with the right (though I would argue that civil liberties is not one of them unless you are homosexual or drug user) and obviously there are many things wrong with the left. I think the problem you will find is that in order to have a support base you need people who feel strongly for the cause. Its easy to find young skulls full of mush to get to work for the left, look at any WTO meeting for that. Its a bit harder to find such mush on the right unless you go to the religious groups (which in turn I think is the main problem for the right) but such energy can be found. With this you have your core believers, your volunteers, your pamphlet handerouters, your vote drivers, your foot soldiers. Try to get a lot of people excited about being moderate. What would they shout 'YOU ARE BOTH RIGHT AND I'M FIGHTING MAD ABOUT IT!' Or 'HELL NO WE WILL GO BUT ONLY WITH PREDEFINED OBJECTIVES!'? Bottom line, its hard for people to get energized being moderate. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

12-05-2005, 01:59 PM	#15 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Highthief... while I agree that they could become a political power, the Libertarians are hardly centrist. While they have the gloss of Social Liberals with their anything goes attitude towards sex, drugs and rock 'n' roll, their economic policies more than just fiscally conservative... they are extremely right wing. Will: While I recognize the situation is 50/50 I think my problem was that I was comparing apples to oranges... The entire US spectrum is over on the Right wing compared to most other nations spectrums (i.e. our conservatives are more like your right leaning dems). On further reflection, I really don't think the US will ever bring another party into the mix. The system just doesn't seem to allow for anyone but the Dems and Republicans (oddities like Reform are blips). __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

12-06-2005, 01:25 PM	#20 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	I love how the Right keeps saying "if you don't agree with us you hate America". Kind of like saying, "your opinion doesn't matter because you're wrong and the country would be better off without you." Neither side hates America, if they did they wouldn't truly be here. The problem is each side has a differing view as to how to help society. The Dems. lean more towards social structure and trying to build a better future. The GOP tend to lean toward big business and a status quo at the least (more often they work for a regression). It basically comes down to how you believe society and the nation can be better. Both sides make good points, both sides have issues where they excel. Hence being moderate. The nation is primarily centrist, a study once showed 30% diehard Dems 30% diehard GOP and 40% middle of the road socially liberal, fiscally conservative. The media and members on each side would like you to believe they are in the majority of every issue, but it is impossible. The only reason they do this is to try to get a majority of that 40% so that they can win elections. Noone wants to feel in "minority" so the psychological factors play into the politician's hands and they use it every way they can to their advantage. If all you do is read one side and form your opinions on just that one side, then yes, the other side to you will always be wrong. And if you really get all your info from extreme radical biased media (Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Coulter, Moore, Springer, etc.) then your views truly becomes very one dimensional and myopic. And the inherent hate shows. The people who speak and yell the loudest only do so to intimidate and persuade, facts be damned. It's like listening to the Right claim the Dem's rely solely on the black for support and how the party sold the blacks a bill of goods and blah blah blah....... yet they don't tell you they did the same with the religious right in their party. "We'll gladly be pro-life and Bible, if you give us your support.... just support all our other issues." Both sides do it equally and just as well as the other. The penduluum swings though and polls and attitudes show that it has swung about as far right as it will so now it will start swinging left again. That's just the way this country is and how it has always operated. IMHO history shows Left = change Right = regression ........ Change comes and starts moving too fast then regression is needed to counterbalance it. Look at our history and you'll see as things change we regress then swing back and gain more change.... and so on. For the progression Teddy Roosevelt (and in today's world he would be a liberal) made came the regressions with Taft and Wilson. Change came with FDR and then Ike came along and regression, JFK came and change occured, Nixon came regression..... and so on. But never has the hatred and partisan politics been this bad..... so the fear now becomes one party gaining the momentum naturally and holding onto it unnaturally, through fear, trying hard to sell the idea that the other side is unpatriotic and "hates America", and so on. But even that won't last long as it is eventually the biggest sign the penduluum and control is being shifted to the other side. (And yes, the Left did this also when they knew they were losing momentum and the penduluum was swinging the other way.) __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" Last edited by pan6467; 12-06-2005 at 01:30 PM..

12-06-2005, 02:37 PM	#21 (permalink)
aswo Crazy	Civil Liberty, Free Market, Peace VOTE LIBERTARIAN __________________ People who love people

12-05-2005, 12:03 PM	#3 (permalink)
Locobot is awesome!	I sense that you feel persecuted but I'm not sure why. Have you actually tried going on a college campus and telling people you're pro-American? Or are you too scared to even attempt something so mundane? Are you not equally afraid that the response might be positive instead of negative? That would certainly take the wind out of your sails! The pervading attitude on university campuses is apathy-towards everything. I'd be surprised and pleased if you got any response at all. I think even people on the right will find your reading list thus far to be facile and superficial. I hope you put a little more effort and thought into constructing your "left" reading list. Political correctness is not one of the chief threats to the U.S. In fact I fail to see how it is a threat at all. Sure there have been some wacky and just plain stupid incarnations, but there is a basic concept that is valid and backed by scientific findings. Check out the comprehension rates of gender-neutral texts sometime. If people wish to be referred to as "african-american" instead of "negro" then it makes sense on any number of levels to respect that nomenclature. How do you propose to create a group that supports Americans' right to speak their mind, but if they say the wrong thing they need to "get the hell out of your country?"

12-05-2005, 12:49 PM	#6 (permalink)
xepherys <3 TFP Location: 17TLH2445607250	I do not feel persecuted at all. In fact, I am very firm in my beliefs. It simply saddens me that so many on both ends of the spectrum fight for things that have nothing to do with making our country better, but rather things that just flesh out their "partisan" agendas. As for college campuses, the exmaples I've seen have come from reputable sources, books and news articles. I have not experienced it first hand, as my college experience ended in the late 90's, and most peopl, under a flourishing economy, were very happy to be pro-America. I've heard and/or seen enough examples, though, of political correctness causing freedom of speech and expression issues on college campuses acorss the country. Administrators are too afraid to let a middle-class, white Christian express his feelings on the terrorist acts of 9/11 to let it be really pushed (say in a rally or school news article) for fear that they will offend middle eastern students. Sure, this is not always the case, but it should NEVER be the case in academia. Expression and thought are what higher education is all about. In several other instances, students of ethnic decent (non-white) that SHOULD'VE been punished for acts commited in violation of actual laws have been let off for fear of causing a "racist" outcry. It's bullshit! I'm not afriad of either positive or negative response to my beliefs. They are what they are. If someone disagrees, so be it. I suppose you are right in that I'd rather someone act out against my beliefs than be apathetic. As I said, I'm looking for suggestions on pro-left, anti-right books as well. I do not consider myself part of the right at all. I think the right has a tremendous religious agenda that has no business in politics. I think that their general belief that ALL public assistance from the government is undeserved or generally a bad thing is also ridiculous. I am in no way bashing the left to hold up the right. I'm bashing both for trying to push the house down. I do believe that political correctness is a serious threat to our society, probably in much the same way that the French feel foreign words are a threat to their culture. Our society is built on some certian basic principles. Pandering to the squeakiest wheel has NOT been one of them until recently. Lobbying hard as a group is one thing, whining that every little thing that doesn't go your way is racist or sexist is shite. Can anyone argue against that fact? Some black people DON'T want to be called African-American. Am I supposed to have people fill out a survey before I talk to them so I know how they prefer to be addressed? Also, note that this is American black culture. Blacks in England are not so ridiculously uptight about this shit. If that sounds racist... well it's not. It's just how things are. I grew up near Detroit. I've had black friends, I've known black families. A lot of them are just like any white family, or chinese family or indian family. They want to work and have things. They want to go to school, spend time with family, eat dinner and watch a movie. They want to go out with friends. They want to play some Xbox. The color of skin has nothing to do with it... it's the bullshit attitudes that people think they are entitled to have BECAUSE of the color of their skin that makes racism prevelant in today's America. shrug Again, it's not a matter of the right or wrong thing... but people who openly bash everything that is American, our policies our attitude the fact that we have too much money or too much food or too much freedom or too much of anything else... well then why are they still here. I certianly wouldn't support legalized deportation of idiots who think this way... I just don't understand the concept of them staying when they are free to leave. It's not like Communist Russia in the 60s when you'd get shot before you'd be allowed to emigrate. People just like to bitch, I think... which is why I'd like to have some sort of ability to change things. I don't want to just bitch... I want to make progress. It's not just attitudes or political correctness. It's also education, apathy, and people's generaly inability to be useful these days. I know historically there was a time not too long ago where the US educated some of the finest minds in science, business, et cetera. Do we still? If so, I've not encountered it much. Businesses are getting too greedy. Sure, in a capitalist society, that is certianly their right. But to outsource work, sell out to cheaper labor outside of the country... it's not good for the country they are getting rich in. It's sad is all. If we had more nationalistic pride (not to sound too socialist or anything) and a bit of patriotism, maybe things would be better. Why doesn't the government fund NASA more? Oh, because it has a huge inflated bloated payroll because of all the hand-shaking and back-scratch and ass-wiping that politicians do these days. At any rate, I never said anything about deporting people I disagree with. That would be counter to my point. I just don't understand saying that the whole place sucks ass then staying put and doing nothing more than complaining. I, for one, don't think the whole place sucks. I love my country... I just don't like a LOT of my fellow countrymen (and countrywomen for those of you in the PC crowd). And i don't just want to bitch about it... which is why I asked for ideas at the beginning of the thread.