hannukah harry

not to be contrary, and i'm not specifically calling you this, but this statement of yours is dripping with racism. whether that was your intent or not.

AA is not causing vastly inferior students to be graduate as doctors. last time i checked, AA doesn't graduate anyone. a white student who graduates with a C average is still a doctor, a black kid (whether he got in through AA or not) who graduates with a C average is still a doctor. if they can't cut muster, then they'll fail out. but any minority that makes it through med school does it because of the work they put into it (and the intelligence they have)... not because of AA.

__________________
shabbat shalom, mother fucker! - the hebrew hammer

roachboy

equalizing funding across localities is a first step to equalizing educational programs. of course it is not an end in itself.

but i find it curious, ustwo, that you would at once complain about the effects of aa--which are the effects of trying to address class stratification and its effects in education (among other things) AND that you would dismiss/trivialize any proposal to address the underlying problem...which is, from your earlier post about medicine, educational.

if you oppose both then:
a. you have a secret idea that might resolve the problems--do tell.
or
b. there are no problems of inequality in education/opportunities in either class or racial terms except those created by attempts to solve the problems or
c. you think such disparities normal and oppose anything that tampers with what you see as a natural order.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

politicophile

Roachboy, this is a false, er, trichotomy. There are other possibilities than the ones you mention here. I'll let Ustwo respond to your jab as he pleases, but I thought I'd note that your "a,b,c approach" is fallacious.

__________________
The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

boatin

I ran a Kinko's Copies long ago. When I took over, the branch was 100% white male. I was talking about that with a buddy, and he suggested that anyone that wasn't a white male wouldn't apply there. He went on to say that he wouldn't encourage his younger brother (right age/experience) to apply at a store like that, because it would just be too hard to be the sole minority.

I had a hellava time getting a diverse mix of coworkers going. But I found his comments to be right on the money. 10/10 applicants when I started were white males (I interviewed everyone that gave me an application). 2 years later, after building a diverse staff, the applicant pool was all over the road. And, go figure, the number of applicants was waaaay up. This allowed me to hire better people, and turn a better product.

Unconfirmed, but I believe it without reservation: the client base changed/grew as well. We certainly became much more profitable over that period. Both gross sales and profit %.



What's that have to do with AA? In my mind, everything. The other branches were staffed the same as mine at the start, and were staffed largely the same 2 years later. Without some time of system to encourage diversity, it isn't gonna happen on it's own. Inertia is a good word.

And I wouldn't have even noticed, probably, if my college buddy hadn't given me shit about a store full of white guys until I realized *I* could change something.

j8ear

This is the key right here. This is the only thing that will work...and the only thing which has worked. The perfect efficiency of a free and unfettered marketplace.

Thanks Boatin'....great points.

-bear

__________________
It's alot easier to ask for forgiveness then it is to ask for permission.

roachboy

politico:

the underlying problem is class stratification and how it plays out in the states.
this history of class warfare (reproduction of a class system is in itself a form of class warfare) is intertwined with the history of racism in america--the two are not identical obviously--i already outlined where i think aa falls within this general scenario.
addressing the effects of these intertwined histories runs into an immediate and seemingly insurmountable problem: those who benefit from that class structure are reluctant to even consider parting with the privileges that accrue to them because of their position.

the proposal to revamp how education is funded seems a reasonable first step to address systematic inequalities of educational opportunities.
aa is a necessarily partial attempt to address these same problems, but it obviously does not go far enough because it simply compensates for uneven distribution of educational capital rather than working to dissolve that unevenness.
i think it a not unreasonable proposal--though i have no illusions about its chances for being implemented.
in response to it, there was yet another facile dismissal from ustwo,
who reduced the proposal to the usual reactionary cliche substitute "throwing money at it"....

if you actually read ustwo's post, politico, and then try to figure out what positions it leaves open for conversation, then i think you will understand why my post is as it is. if you do not choose to work out that kind of thing, there is nothing to be done--but in this case the "false trichotomy" you impute to me seems to follow from nothing other than your truncated view of context.

it seems to me that you are politically not that far from ustwo, and so would perhaps be inclined to see his post otherwise. that too is your choice--but do not pretend that you are making a logical critique when you are in fact making a political one.

in case somehow, things are still not clear to you, i'll spell it out another way:
given the premises of conversative discourse about aa--which complains about effects and says nothing--ever--coherent about causes (vouchers/private schools in no address)...the right seems to see in the existing capitalist order an unqualified good and works from a moralizing understanding of stratification. so that discourse opens no coherent ways to address cause.

if you are complaining about aa and offering no alternatives, then your position logically drifts toward a naturalization of class divisions.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

politicophile

Not so, sir. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that, If I am unable to offer alternatives to affirmative action, then I support the institutionalized racism that currently exists. Nothing could be further from the truth. However, in my continuing quest to find a substitute to affirmative action, I have been unable to answer the following critical question. Are you able to shed some light on it for me?

Question: What is the purpose of affirmative action?

If we are not able to answer this question with a straight-forward response (The purpose of affirmative action is [X, Y, Z, blah blah]), then not only will I not be able to come up with a viable alternative to "aa", but any justifications you have for the program's continued existence will inevitibly fail.

This is a question for everyone out there, so please feel free to respond!

__________________
The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

boatin

I would agree. But I would also suggest that the system needs a push. In my case it came in the form of a friend busting my balls for a while. That doesn't translate real well. Not everyone has the caliber of friends I'm lucky enough to have.

I had the most profitable store in the area, with the fastest growth. My fellow managers wanted to know what I was doing, so I told them: diversity + working for my staff (doing what they suggested, and working to make their jobs easier and more pleasant).

In both areas, no one really followed. They wanted magic solutions, or something. Unless the regional manager enforced a practice, it didn't happen. This makes me insane, but I know it to be true.

So what is the enforcement/push that will change comfortable behaviors? It's clear to me that the pure profit motive doesn't do it by itself. Even though it sure should...



Consider both of my posts to be attempt to answer this question. Change isn't going to magically happen by itself. Even with profit as a driver, it isn't enough. People do what they are comfortable doing. Many need some kind of push to change behavior - even well intentioned people.

Like others in this thread, I'm open to other suggestions.

alansmithee

The purposes of AA as I see them:

1. To help counteract the ingrained racism/sexism that exists/has existed in many workplaces and colleges by enabling minorities/women access to those institutions. This in turn leads to

2. Helping correct the economic imbalance that is suffered by many minorities/women due to being denied free access to economic opportunities for approx. 300 years (for blacks) and 250 years (for women).


They are largely intertwined. Because white males had around a 200 year head start, even in areas where there isn't current racism the effects are gravely felt. In many ways, poverty is now seen as part of black culture. Also, because for so many years blacks weren't allowed to make their own way, it has become difficult for them to do so now.

AA isn't an answer for racism, but it is something that helps mitigate the effects of racism. It's not an antibiotic, but a painkiller. It's also why I don't take seriously people who argue against racism on the terms of it being discriminatory. These people aren't arguing against discrimination, they are arguing against being discriminated against and no longer being sole beneficiaries of discrimination.

Marvelous Marv

A 30-year friend of mine teaches in a medical school, and (I'm keeping it polite here) he disagrees with you. Emphatically.

According to him, extra credit can be assigned (which if you think about it, doesn't do anything to teach what was originally required to be learned) and the inferior students are just passed along. If they're not, and the percentage of minority graduates drops, the federal money dries up.

some of the affirmative action babies screw up so badly in the real world that they either lose their licenses or wind up in an area with less litigation (like public health) but they're still lousy doctors. And they do a lot of harm before they get caught.

Yes, other students can wind up in the same situation, but speaking from thirty years' experience, my friend says the percentage of AA students having problems is MUCH higher.

That's not racism. Unless you consider it racist that the NBA is around 70% black.

hannukah harry

i'm sorry if i don't find your friends anecdotal evidence compelling.

are only minorities being given extra credit? do all schools do this? where is this epidemic of minority doctors being having thier licenses revoked? i'd like to see some statistics from a reputable source. until then, one med school teacher doesn't hold much sway on my opinion.

__________________
shabbat shalom, mother fucker! - the hebrew hammer

Ustwo

I'm sorry but you are wrong here.

Minority students get into medical school MUCH easier, get extra help and need to maintain a lower GPA at least at the school I attended. In one 'program' they GOT TO SEE THE TESTS AHEAD OF TIME TO 'STUDY'. Its quite insane.

If you think people who barely scrape by taking classes over many times (they get to) and managing to squeak by with the lowest possible board scores makes them a good doctor, I have to beg to differ.

If you think my statement is dripping with racism you have NO damn clue what is going on. In fact the racism isn't on the part of people like me, I'm just following common sense, but schools who force this stigma of AA on truly qualified minority students. In college I had two hispanic friends. One was in the top of the class and didn't want any help at all, the other did horrible on the MCATS, piss poor in school, failed his board exam the first go, and barely passed it his second try. A white student would have never been accepted with his scores, his grades, or his piss poor performance in medschool. Knowing this guy personally from being in a frat together, I wouldn't trust him to give me a shave, let alone be my physician. Sadly They both get lumped together with the racism that is AA.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

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Ustwo

Do you HONESTLY think anyone would publish this sort of thing?

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

pan6467

To me the racism that exists exists because the minorities keep throwing the fact they are minorities into our faces.

In America today there is no reason for a black man/hispanic/asian or woman to yell about how they are not treated fairly.

There are more blacks and women working where I do then white men. And when issues of unjustness come up the white male has had the same exact treatment and yet somehow when it happens to a female or black male or black female it's racist and sexist.

When clients are wanting meds or asking for food and if I don't jump right up, most whites are cursing under their breath.... the blacks are saying I'm racist and going to a black co-worker. When the co-worker gives the exact same treatment that I do, it's, "brother/sister, you uncle Toms don't know what it's like out there for us".

I just find it an easy excuse to cry racism/sexism than to actually work as hard as someone else to get ahead. I could cry about the fact that in the past 3 months 2 full time positions have opened and both times I held the seniority to get offered those positions and instead the company went outside and hired 2 balck males (less qualified and less credentialed) to take those positions. Is that not racism?

I don't have a racist bone in my body, I don't look at people as black and white or Hispanic or Asian but as people..... until I see that the people who are of certain ethinicities use it to their advantages and will be the first to stab you with that racism knife they seem to carry around ready to use when not given what they want.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Marvelous Marv

No problem. You're of course free to go to whatever doctor/dentist/vasectomist you prefer.


No, a lot of female students used to get it as well. However, most of the ones that are there now EARNED their way in. As it should be.

And no, the historically minority schools don't do it.

By the way, as ustwo pointed out, it's not ALL minority students--some of them are highly competent. To refer to an "epidemic" of revocations is an exaggeration of what I said.

Good luck trying to get an official breakdown of license revocations by race, though. The screams from Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton would be earsplitting. Although they wouldn't be too concerned about Asian students.

I'll also repeat that there are steps that can be taken to forestall a revocation.

hannukah harry

hell yeah i would. i would expect that any person who wants to get rid of AA would gladly publish this sort of thing. if it's happening at a handful of places (which lets be honest, the kind of treatment described shouldn't be happening at all), then i could see people not publishing it. but if this is a rampant issue, then i'm actually shocked that no one has published it. i can't think of a better way to get AA recinded or reworked than by publishing stuff like this. i'm sure that the first person to do so might be risking his career. but if he or she takes the time to carefully document it and provide irrefutable proof, then there's no worry.

__________________
shabbat shalom, mother fucker! - the hebrew hammer

roachboy

politico: i am tired of posting the same thing over and over only to get in response a reposing of the question i tried to answer. read what i worte earlier if you want my position on the question of aa.

radio roachboy now concludes its broadcast day.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Charlatan

I agree this sort of abuse occurs. I have seen it first hand many times.

I think it should also be said that racism and sexism does exist even if it is often mislabelled or the accusation is used to hide personal short comings...

I would argue that this has little to do with AA as I have been witness to this sort of behaviour in Canada where we do not have institutionalized AA.

With regards to AA and medical school. I can agree with the idea of giving some breaks on the admissions BUT I have to say that once there if they cannot cut the muster, they should fail. Period.

If the AMA (or whatever regulatory body decides these things) has a certain level below which a student cannot become a doctor, I do not want that student to become a doctor.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

martinguerre

I just don't know how you can say this. There are five neighborhoods in NYC that end up being the most represented in NY state corrections. No prizes for guessing the ethnic makeup of those places.

I guess here's my challenge. If you don't think that racism really exists:

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implici...attitudes.html

That's the IAT Test, and it records implicit associations. There are tests for associating minority groups with violence, or if you have a preference for lighter faces or not. I consider myself a pretty enlightened person...i was stunned to see my results when i first took one of these tests.

now, implicit attitudes alone don't make a person a racist. but what it measures is one of the unconscious underpinnings of racism...and it's given me a lot to think about. if most people out there are walking around with unconscious assumptions that are disfavorable against a group, and then most people in that group learn to expect hostility, and then most people learn to expect hostitily out of the group that expects hostility...

pan, i just don't see how you can claim that racism does not exist, or is the fault of opportunitist minorities. To me, that is a incredibly prejudicial claim, and one that i did not expect from you.

__________________
For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

pan6467

I did not say racism does not exist..... I said I have not seen it. If anything I have seen reverse racism.

If you would have read the whole post you would see my argument.

There are those who flaunt their minorities and live lives of crime because that is the environment they know...... It is NOT A RACIST problem. It is a problem of finding ways to educate, get drugs out of that environment, build self esteems, and finding ways to give hope to these people, who ARE OF ALL RACES AND LIVE IN THESE ENVIRONS.

Is Welfare the answer?

NO, been tried it was abused and while it does help some, it has been proven to promote stagnation of that life in poverty. Welfare was the slave system repeated in different ways. It was keeping the blacks and poor out of the way..... free money (barely enough to live on but enough), low rent projects = high crime, low self esteems, no desire to move upward.

Are quotas or Affirmative Action the answer?

NO, it by it's very nature promotes racism on both sides, and prevents the most qualified applicant to get the job. You show me 1 minority owned company that has to hire a white male to meet quota. I have a feeling you can't. It does not help the minorities to better themselves if they know they can get away with doing less.

So what IS the answer?

Education, Education and I repeat EDUCATION. If we spent the money on education that we spent on welfare or trying to enforce and investigate Affirmative Action cases, we would have the highest educated, most dedicated workforce in the world. (I say dedicated because with strong funded education ALL people would have the oppurtunities to advance and move upward.)

I will say this, the GOP talking heads are right, the Dems don't like to hear this. They prefer to back the Al Sharptons, Louis Farakhans, Jesse Jacksons, NOW, whatever, that continually tell us how bad minorities have it and truly do nothing to educate people out of the ghettoes.

To some this maybe racist, but I have seen it and I despise it. We do not do anyone justice by throwing money in programs like welfare or enforcing prejudicial by it's existence laws, as is the case with AA.

Now, the GOP is not innocent either, they choose to focus on the negative aspects of the failed programs and refuse to try to come up with an answer except trickle down economics.... which by it's own name should tell you something.

The GOP would want to ignore the problems and not do anything to change wxcept cut funding to ALL social programs including EDUCATION.... which is idiotic because then you have slums noone can afford to live in and no education to advance. Thus crime rates will skyrocket as will drug use and poverty.

The ONLY solution is to finance education and jobs that use those degrees to the max and help those who use the system properly to advance themselves.

Yes, there will be those using it for the wrong reasons, but far fewer than welfare allowed..... it gives a true equal playing field to all races, sexes and ethnicities because the education is there.... and it builds self esteem....

But you have to fund education equally not even ask race/sex/ethnicity questions ON any school application. Give funding equally to all and see what happens..... and I can almost guarantee all this talk of prejudice, AA, etc. will be forgotten.

BTW I don't need bullshit tests or slogans or people lecturing me on prejudices..... I judge a person on 2 things only: the respect they shows me (if they respect me as I respect them) and attitude. If I see a person tell me I owe them because of the color of their skin, their sex or whatever...... I tell them to go f-off. I owe noone anything and they owe me nothing.

However, the government owes the people to give the best education possible to all so that all may advance so that the tax burden is spread out more equally. What we spend in education the most positive resource government can give a person...... will come back in time exponentially.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

martinguerre

pan, that's an entirely differnt post that the one i responded to.

the quote i originally cited,
That was the real kicker. I don't think my characterization of that posting is unfair. It think that statement is racially prejudiced, and that it is factually untrue. I'm more inclined to accept a few of the points you offer in your followup posting. I do think educational opportunity is the answer. But there are still cultural issues to be worked out.

The stereotypes of african americans, especially men, do not tend to identify with high performance in school. parents may have had decreased access to education, etc..

so when you put a kid who's parents were rich enough to go to grad school in with a kid who's parents are undereducated, underemployed, and whose culture is being bombarded with messages that tell that child they aren't smart...

you tell me who benifits from increased education spending. Alone, money isn't enough. It's a damn good start, but it won't even the field entirely. Head Start programs, more intervention for kids who are having problems reading, after school activities, etc...these related areas of social support are huge factors in if kids stay in school, and want to do well.

People (white, black, whatever) who are told that society does not expect them to do well on a test/school/whatever spend so much mental energy trying to get around that opposition, to outhink the test, to try to prove that wrong...that they end up harming their performance. It's called stereotype threat, and it's a very real issue in the academic performance of minority students, especially gifted and talented kids.

I didn't include that link as a lecture. As i posted with it, I've been pretty floored at the results i've gotten. It wasn't because they were good. What it tells me isn't that i'm a bad person, or a racist. what it tells me is that i live in a culture saturated with implicit racism and stereotypes. It tells me that it takes conscious effort to disrupt those cultural messages, and work to be a fair person. i don't see how we can expect to level the playing field without such conscious effort, as represented though not perfected by AA.

__________________
For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

pan6467

Whoa whoa whoa....... the use of African American, Asian American, whatever-American peturbs me to no end.

WE ARE ALL FUCKING AMERICANS FIRST, and if you have to put a label that draws attention to BS then you are part of the problem.

I will never say I am Irish-American or German-American or whatever..... Yes, my ancestors came from those places but I WAS BORN AND RAISED IN THE USA AND I AM SOLELY AMERICAN (of the US variety).

This country is not the Indians, because maybe my forefathers stole it from them.... (which is BS the earliest any member of my family on any side came to the US was in 1880's and they settled first in NYC then Ohio and as far as I know there were no Indian wars for land at those times.) Noone in my family owned slaves (and there were many blacks in Africa that did and sold them to the white man), noone in my family wore a swastika, or burned a cross or whatever..... I owe noone anything for the sins of my father.... all I can do is try not to repeat those sins and to try to make a better world for the future...... BS and negativity and the like does not make for a better world.

I am about as color blind as it comes to people until they show me I can't be.... i.e. their attitude that they have more rights and deserve more respect than I do because of their ethinicity..... I can only be called a racist 1 time by someone before I believe them to be racist..... and even then I show them the same respect I would anyone else.

I treat all people equally and with the respect I wish to be shown.

Again, by stating "To me...." is my OPINION ONLY. It is how I feel, period.

You want to end racism, get the Jesse Jacksons, the Louis Farrakahns, the Al Sharptons to shut up how badly they are treated and get out the Clarence Thomas', the Colin Powell's, the Sandra Day O'Connor's, the successful men and women who don't use freaking excuses to cry about how unfair the world is.

I forgot those are all Uncle Tom's who betray "their people" to become successful. It's bullshit..... face facts man, some people are going to use whatever excuse they can to not advance and not change how they live. And as long as we as a society allow this and feel sorry for them and give them what they want (AA, Welfare, ETC.) and
not what they need, (EDUCATION) WE CONTINUE TO FEED THE PROBLEM AND LET THE HATREDS BUILD.

Negativity only breeds negativity.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

martinguerre

The use of color-blind logic that ignores the real effects of race in american culture perturbs me. But you don't see me using all caps and cuss words.

Nor did i mention the doctrine of sins of the father. i wasn't even going to talk about Native peoples' claim to the land, til you mentioned it. Nothing i'm talking about is in the past. The problem, now, is disproportional access to opportunity. The cause has a lot to do with the past, but hte issue is in the here and now.

And i told you i disagreed, and that i thought your rhetoric was short of facts and long on unjustified optimism. I also said that my opinion of your opinion was that it was racially prejudiced. I don't expect a reply to this, but i'm not sure what reaction you wanted by telling me that this was your opinion. I know that, you posted it, and you explained some of your logic. But so far, i haven't seen anything that changes my assessment of your original posting.

I don't really have anything else to say to the rest of it. I think it's a total strawman if you directed it me. Nothing i stated could possibly be construed to indicate that i thought that sucess identified racial minorites were race traitors or part oft he problem. I simply identified the mechanism by which some of those people do dis-identify, and the fact that popular culture (including white cultural expressions) have a major role in that process. So back off with the uncle tom stuff. It's just plain uncalled for.

__________________
For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

boatin

And I applaud the sentiment. But tests like the one mentioned above show very real results. I'm sorry you find them to be bullshit. I can want to believe a particular way, and successfully act a particular way. But until I know the creepy crawlies deep inside, I don't believe I can successfully beat them.

I'm glad there are people like you operating at a higher level, I guess. I just figured that level could do without the swearing and all caps.

djtestudo

Let me say I agree with Pan (a first I think), and got what I would assume to be a neutral result in taking that test.

__________________
"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen."
--Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

jonjon42

Ustwo...If you want to meet an asian doctor that will break your stereotype, give my uncle a ring. :P

Anyways, I think AA is a mixed blessing at best.
I am a halfie, half-korean half generic white mix (mostly irish)
I sometimes benefit from AA but it has also hurt me. At school I had to deal with alot of shit about me being the AA student the first year and thus somehow not as smart (proud to say I have a 4.0 still). AA itself I don't believe is the problem. The perception of AA is becoming the problem. I really don't know if I have benefited from it or not in truth. I really don't think about it much. I will say this, this is a rather white school (about 95 percent I think), and I wouldn't mind seeing more diversity on campus.

__________________
A damn dirty hippie without the dirty part....

Ustwo

I never said all Asians were good doctors, I know some really crappy ones by my standards personally, but Asians tend to not benifit from AA and from what I gather they are under HIGHER standards than white students in some CA schools.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Charlatan

Ustwo... how many "white" doctors to you see that are lousy... honest question.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Ustwo

You don't wanna know

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

hannukah harry

so does that make the moral of the story... 'beware of doctors... lots of them suck.' ?

__________________
shabbat shalom, mother fucker! - the hebrew hammer

Charlatan

So what does it matter if there are few more who just happen to not be white?

On a serious note, I'd like to see some stats about Doctor competency. Though it would likelybe counter productive I would like to see a racial breakdown in those stats... I think we might be surprised how equal the share of incompetence is...

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

joshbaumgartner

If we assume as a starting point that it is wrong to deny opportunity on the basis of race/gender/etc., not only in government but in business as well, then we have to first know why that discrimination happens, and I can see four primary reasons:

1. Overt racism/sexism: This is the monster we all know and think of when we talk racism. The old white guy that just simply won't have one of those no good whatevers working for him, to paint a stereotype. This is a lot rarer than it used to be, in a large part because the society, including government, has made this an unacceptable position.

2. Indirect racism/sexism: This is when an employer who may not even think of themselves as racist will discriminate, sometimes unintentionally, against a certain group based on alternative rationale (not directly against the groups race or sex) but some other factor. For example, one may feel it fair to account for a 'PMS factor' as an inherent consideration when hiring women.

3. Social considerations: While an employer may harbor no ill will to or apply negatives to a group, it is human nature to form bonds with those of similar social behavior as ourselves. While the employer may not discriminate against a person, that person may suffer in consideration because they don't share various social norms such as accent, etc. with the employer.

4. Inherent inequality: Outside of an employer's control, the pool of available qualified employees may be tilted towards one group or another. For example, because of social matters not under the employer's control, the pool of good nurses is heavily female. To form a group of nurses that is evenly male and female, one would possibly have to unfairly decline a position to a female which may be better qualified than a male.

Each of these is a different problem with its own solutions. Affirmative action does a good job against the first, is partially effective against 2 and 3 and is counter-effective in cases of #4.

Elphaba

Josh's third point was of particular interest to me:

3. Social considerations: While an employer may harbor no ill will to or apply negatives to a group, it is human nature to form bonds with those of similar social behavior as ourselves. While the employer may not discriminate against a person, that person may suffer in consideration because they don't share various social norms such as accent, etc. with the employer.

When I took the IAT test that Martinguerre recommended, I was appalled at my results. Although I prejudge people on a number of factors, I never thought of myself as racist. I grew up in white bread suburbia in the '50's and I suspect I seek my own "kind" due to a lack of experience in a multi-ethnic community.

I think this example argues the I would have benefited from diversity.

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"You can't ignore politics, no matter how much you'd like to." Molly Ivins - 1944-2007

pan6467

Prejudging people and being prejudice can be 2 totally different things.

I can say that when we have a 20 something white heroin addict come in to detox, the first thing crossing everyone's mind is this is a rich white kid who got messed up and is going to be very demanding. And 9 out of 10 are, however that 10th one is very humble and is truly there to help themself.

Now is that first thinking prejudging an individual, absolutely, based on experience. However, if you focus on that prejudice and act on it and treat that client as being the rich white kid messed up and demanding, then that is what you will get.

However, if you treat that client with respect and understanding and like the 50 year old alcoholic that is living in the streets, you have a better chance of turning the stereotype, prejudged client into one who may be the humble, truly wanting to get clean kid.

It works that way in everything. If I am driving in a bad neighborhood (which just happened as I was lost in Philly last night) and I see a group of black men and I immediately turn to stereotypes and prejudices, then bad things are more apt to happen.

Contempt and fear bring out contempt and fear.

However, if I stop and put down my window and talk to them like men and ask for help, I may find them to be very nice and helpful....

Guess which I did? Had I not asked for help, I would never have found the Holiday Inn on Arch as I had turned the wrong way off the Ben Franklin and gone quite a few blocks down 5th the wrong way.

Now, say I am lost in Cape May, New Jersey and I see what appears to be a white suburban tourist and I choose to ask him for directions because he appears "safe". All of a sudden he pulls a gun takes my wallet pulls me out of my car and drives off.

The point, based on stereotypes and prejudices..... you can be very, very wrong.

The only way to judge ANY PERSON is by their actions and not what the stereotype is. You have to treat every person with respect and as an individual and in doing so chances are any fears you have hidden will be greatly eased by the respect you recieve in return.

It's far easier to train yourself to respect others for their diversity than it is to train yourself to hate. At least it is for me.
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PS as for my rants above, I am a very passionate person and when someone is telling me that because I say I have never seen racism and that I believe reverse racism and people using their ethnicity or sex to make claims they have no right to, and that person is telling me I am wrong, it irks me. Do you know what my experiences are? Do you know what I have seen? No? Then why are you "prejudging" my statements and attacking them?

I work just as hard as anyone else (sometimes harder because I truly love my job and to me it isn't work...99% of the time) and I have no time for the games.

I am liberal in many ways. I am a proud Democrat but I have also seen too many of my Dem. brethren fall into the "labels" and the want to eradicate racism/sexism by pointing out others races and sex, when there is no need to.

If you are hiring someone, or giving someone a better chance in school, or treating an individual differently based on race/sex/ethnicity then by pointing out the difference you are being prejudiced yourself. You are prejudging that that person deserves and is owed a better chance based on criteria that should not and would not matter if you weren't pointing it out.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

daswig

I think part of the problem with the number of African-American college students is not the result of overt discrimination, but rather the result of a subculture that does not promote assimilation and education, but instead espouses "thug life".

I recall seeing two african-american men interacting a few years back. The sixtysomething was well dressed in a conservative manner (sportscoat, buttondown shirt, tie, slacks, shined loafers) and the twentysomething was dressed "ghetto", a sports jersey, sweatpants, "do-rag", boots with no shoestrings, et cetera. The twentysomething came up to him and said something like "Hey, Brother." The sixtysomething said "I'm not your Brother, and you've never been part of my tribe." I spent 45 minutes afterwards listening to the sixtysomething rant to me about the twentysomething, and how the pain and suffering the sixtysomething went through to have the right to assimilate and get a good education and succeed was being "pissed on" by kids like that. The sixtysomething had literally been through hell (YOU consider what being an african-american army officer in the deep South during the late 50's-early '60s was like) and had "made it". He'd had a successful career as a military officer, been educated, owned his own business, and was by any rational measure a success. More importantly, he viewed what he and his generation did as blazing a trail for later generations, only to have those later generations turn their backs on the path that had been opened for them with literal sweat, blood, and tears.

A few days ago, I was talking to another african-american friend about how our "group" of friends seems to be spawning at an alarming rate. He's in his thirties, childless and unmarried. He told me that he didn't want to "go ghetto" and father a child out of wedlock. What does it say about a subculture when it promotes things like the men being "playahs" and the women as being "Hos" or "Bee-yotches"?

Some african-americans are quietly still on what I consider the "path to success". They're going to college, they're getting degrees, and are moving on to conventional success as responsible buisnesspeople, authors, lawyers, doctors, et cetera. But instead of them being glorified as what they are (in my book, "good people"), they're denigrated as being "uncle toms" and "sellouts" by people who consider "pimpin" to be the highest form of success.

In my book, there's something very, very wrong with that.

Marvelous Marv

That's not the right question.

Although you will never, ever, be able to view such a study, what you should be asking for is a breakdown in regard to former AA students.

There ARE minority members who make it on merit.

pan6467

And by having AA, quotas and whatever else "to prove we are not racist/sexist" or "to give those of lesser oppurtunities a better chance".... we cheapen those accomplishments made by the ones who made it on merit.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

AVoiceOfReason

Rather than trying to respond to all the threads above, many of which I found very interesting, let me try to address the question of what to do to get more qualified minorities in a particular field, such as nuclear physics.

The incoming class looks to be 95% white or Asian male. The school admins decide that the class would be better served by having more blacks and more females. It can do some of the following:

1. Actively recruit in the schools where blacks are a majority, and target efforts at women.

2. Change the entrance exam so more of those groups that have applied but haven't made it will not be weeded out at that stage.

3. Leave the exam alone and lower the score needed to "pass." Then, make remedial education classes available for all that need it, knowing that the ones that scored at the level that would have failed before the adjustment will need it.

4. Offer financial incentives to blacks and women not available to white and Asian males.


I have no problem with AA in the first area--recruitment. The standards of admission are not lowered. I have a little sympathy with the fourth option, but would prefer a racially and gender neutral approach to public financing--the poor white kid in West Virginia can use that kind of help, too.


2 and 3 are both unthinkable to me. Standards for the discipline being studied must be maintained.

There are possibly other options I'm not seeing--any thoughts?

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AVOR

A Voice Of Reason, not necessarily the ONLY one.

Charlatan

This is the part of the equation that many do not think about when discussing racism. When I was much younger, I was educated about this by one of my black friends... we were discussing race relations in general and when he brought up this brand of racism, my mind was blown. My natural instinct is the lend a helping hand... but when that hand is thrust out based on critera that has nothing to do with actual need, rather based on something like race or gender it taints the help you are offering.

Ultimately it underscores, for me anyway, that trying to fix inequity is a messy path.

As people have pointed out in this thread, there are problems on BOTH sides (really there are more than two sides to this but for sake of simplicity....) of this issue. On one hand you have the situations that joshbaumgartner desribes. Some are institutional, some are intentional but the fact remains that they exist.

On the other hand you have the issues that pan6467 and daswig describe... Argue as some will that their descriptions are racist and don't exist, the fact remains that these attitudes DO exist.

In the middle of all of this remain the group of people who just live their lives and do the right thing. They hire the most qualified (or better put the right person for the job - not always the most qualified). They recognize that there is a mainstream culture and to some extent attempt to assimilate (a black man all done up in gangsta wear applying for an office job is no different than a white guy with piercings and tattoos on his face... You want to work in an straight up office you HAVE to play the part - if you don't want to do that you have to get creative about finding work).


Ultimately, there are people in power who would like to see a lessening of inequity between the races and sexes, etc. Is AA the path to this pancea of equality and diversity? Probably not. Is it a tool that can be used to give the most stubborn a kick in the pants (especially in the way I described in about post #28 of this thread).

The fact remains that there are a lot of attitudinal changes that need to be made and these sorts of changes cannot be legislated. They take time, some solid foundation laws (i.e. laws against discrimination), integration and a lot of effort from people. The most important of which is time.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Charlatan

I agree with your read on this.

A question about #4. What if the scholarships were private ones? Would that make a difference?

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke