samcol

Remember those evil gun owners who were doing straw purchases for the Mexican drug cartels? It turns out the feds are largely responsible for the whole thing.

These whole things just seems like it was fabricated as a way to demonize gun owners and further curb the 2nd amendment. I mean we have the FBI paying drug lords to buy guns and the ATF is knowingly allowing them to happen as a means to better track gun smuggling.

THEY LET THE WHOLE THING HAPPEN. Who knows how Mexican's died from these weapons and there's also a couple confirmed American's killed.

__________________
It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize.

Hotmnkyluv

It was set up exactly that way and for exactly that purpose. This administration will do anything they can to hamper and take away the rights of gun owners. Knowing they don't have the votes to do things the "right" way, they are going to try and go through whatever back channels and back alley deals will accomplish their goals.
Check out last last week's agenda via reclassifying certain ammunition and then seizure of said ammunition along with a list of customer information.

Plan9

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

samcol

I knew there had to be a thread on it somewhere, I guess I was looking in the wrong place. guess you can delete this one

__________________
It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize.

dc_dux

I would agree that Operation Fast and Furious was a reckless ill-advised plan to deal with the illegal trafficking of guns into Mexico. The acting director of ATF should resign.

But to suggest it is the cause of the trafficking problem or some secret plan to take away the Second Amendment rights of lawful citizens is just NRA fear-mongering.

Many ATF agents will tell you that the root of the problem is the fact that we do not have laws to deal specifically with illegal trafficking. At best, a person can be charged with lying on the form that claims the purchases were for personal use.

The Republicans in Congress, acting on behalf of the NRA, have blocked the appointment of a permanent director of the ATF for six years now and have blocked every attempt to deal with illegal trafficking through legislation that will not impact law abiding citizens.

---------- Post added at 07:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:31 PM ----------

In the words of ATF agents:
BTW, Issa, the chairman of the Committee received a classified briefing on F&F more than a year ago and raised no objections.

The fact that he objected to even raising the issue of the root cause of the problem is just political grandstanding.

The problem of illegal trafficking into Mexico wont go away unless comprehensive action is taking by both the US and Mexico through legislation and increased enforcement funding, not reckless programs that at best, would be a band-aid.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Derwood

This administration has not attempted amsingle piece of anti-gun legislation, but whenever the NRA blows it's dog whistle, the faithful get their panties in a bunch

__________________
"You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

samcol

I'd rather have overreaction's every time a gun issue comes up than have our 2nd amendment chipped away at. Make no mistake, they want our guns. They just don't have the political leverage to do it yet. They need a few more Gabriel Giffords, or Columbine type incidents, or US guns going to Mexican drug cartel news stories to pull it off.

When Obama says he's working on gun control 'under the radar', and in light of this fast and furious program, I'd say the ball is in the administrations court to prove this wasn't the intended goal all along.

It looks so suspicious for them to be demonizing straw purchases while the ATF is running a program knowingly allowing them to happen, and having the FBI purchasing the guns through crime lord surrogates. Am I really that crazy to imply that this is a conspiracy to get more anti-gun legislation. The whole thing stinks to high heaven.

__________________
It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize.

dc_dux

Straw purchasing and gun tracking didnt start in 2008 when Obama took office or 2009 when the ATF implemented F&F and it wont end unless it is dealt with directly....an d the NRA wont allow it. Thats the problem.

The nonsense about this operation being a secret plot for Obama and the Democrats wanting to take your guns is baseless NRA fear-mongering (and fund raising).

IMO, it only looks suspicious if you buy into the fear-mongering.

Or perhaps you think those ATF agents who are pleading for tougher anti-trafficking laws are just part of the Obama/Democrat plot.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

ASU2003

I can't think of one thing Obama has done to change gun laws in this country. Even after the Tucson shooting, he didn't do anything.

At least it's not like the 'fiscal conservatives' changing the abortion laws and union busting...

---------- Post added at 12:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:10 AM ----------

I can't think of one thing Obama has done to change gun laws in this country. Even after the Tucson shooting, he didn't do anything.

At least it's not like the 'fiscal conservatives' changing the abortion laws and union busting...

Derwood

It must be tiring to be a single issue voter

__________________
"You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

The_Dunedan

Ok then, riddle me this.

If Operation Gunwalker really -was- an attempt to break up gunrunning rings:

1: Why was no effort made to track the guns after they transited into Mexico? We know from ATF whistleblowers that this was the case; they were told not to track or interdict the weapons, rather to wait for them to surface at crime scenes. In essence, to let the guns "walk" and then forget about them until someone was killed, which is exactly what happened.

2: Why were Mexican authorities, at every level, kept in the dark?

3: Why were ATF agents prevented from making arrests once the weapons were transferred to known cartel members?

So far, I have not seen any answer from any quarter which satisfactorily answers these questions.

As for Rep. Issa allegedly having briefed on this...give me a break. The only paper which has dared to run this, out of the entire statist, anti-gun media, has been the Wa. Post. There are no names associated with it, only the usual, useful "anonymous sources," who are directly contradicted by members of Rep. Issa's staff and various other Congressional personnel. Furthermore, are we -really- expected to believe that a Congressman who was at most tangentially connected to this operation was given a special briefing before the poject began, but the Diector of ATF -and- the Attorney General were totally ignorant of this project and only first heard of it a few weeks ago? The director of the Bureau and the country's chief LEO knew nothing but a mostly-unconnected Congressthingy got a full, special read-in? REALLY? How ruttin' stupid does the Post think we are?

As for the lack of laws to deal with gunrunning: horseshit. The technical term for it is "dealing firearms without a license." Selling or transferring guns for a living, or for a profit, even -one- gun, is legally defined as "dealing," for which ATF requires a license. Penalties run to multiple years in prison and tens of thousands of dollars in fines. Now, people don't typically -get- prosecuted for a few small deals, but a very effective mechanism exists for prosecuting and incarcerating gunrunners.

As for the Obama Regime not doing anything against guns...rank, stinking, blowfly-covered horseshit. Besides this colossal horror (and a sister operation out of Miami which was running guns to Honduras for MS-13), the Obama DoJ has repeatedly tried to illegally impose multiple-sale reporting requirements for rifles and shotguns, is pushing to ratify the United Nations Arms Trade Treaty (the provisions of which would bankrupt and eliminate the vast majorit of firearms/ammunition mnufacturers and dealers), stop the sale of surplus military brass (spent shell casings) to the civilian/LEO market, and is deeply involved with that asshole Bloomberg and his Mayors Against Illegal Guns fraud. MAIG, by the way, is not only full of criminals (some convicted before joining, most after, and at a much higher rate than, say, CCW holders), but quite transparently wishes to apply NYC/CA standards when determining what guns should be "illegal"...which pretty much means all of them. They're also one of the biggest, loudest peddlers of the totally discredited lie that 70-90% of Mexican crime guns came from the US- even with ATF'S help the number has never been higher than 18%. Even the State Department acknowledges this, as we now know thanks to Wikileaks! This notion that Obama and his DoJ have not moved against gun-owners and gun rights is absolute nonsense.

__________________
"I personally think that America's interests would be well served if after or at the time these clowns begin their revolting little hate crime the local police come in and cart them off on some trumped up charges or other. It is necessary in my opinion that America makes an example of them to the world."

--Strange Famous, advocating the use of falsified charges in order to shut people up.

StanT

You realize that exactly one piece of gun legislation has been signed by Obama and it allowed the carry of weapons in National Parks in accordance with state laws?

Obama's opinion on guns is irrelevant, between Iran, Iraq, and the economy his plate is over full.

samcol

The issue is really bigger than just gun legislation. You have to ask the question why the government is sabotaging law enforcement, and for every program like this that comes to light are there other such programs in other sectors of government that we don't know about?

The feds are basically shipping guns to drug lords, what else do they think they can get away with?

__________________
It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize.

StanT

I dunno, Iran/Contra ... Those nasty WMD. Stupidity and deception in government is apolitical.

Derwood

I don't think you'll get anyone here to argue that the "Guns to Mexico" program wasn't a colossal failure of epic proportions

---------- Post added at 01:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:41 PM ----------

care to cite any/all of this for us?

__________________
"You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

dc_dux

I get it.

Samcol and Dunedan are not interested in looking at the bigger picture or the concerns of numerous ATF officials or what may have lead the AFT to even consider such a reckless and ill-advised plan.

It is easier to declare it as part of an Obama/Democrat plan to take away your guns.

Ask yourself this. Who is really "sabotaging" law enforcement.

The Obama government that provided an addtional $10 million for Bush's Operation Gunrunner program or the Republicans (on behalf of the NRA) who wont even allow a discussion of legislation to deal specifically with the growing problem of illegal trafficking...and that has blocked the appointment of a permanent ATF director for six years now (both Bush and Obama appointees).

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

dksuddeth

before everyone gets too far off the beaten path, lets try to get a couple of things straight.

fast and furious was started under bush. It was an operation designed to stop gun trafficking across the border by intercepting people trying to cross teh border with straw bought weapons.

the operation took a decidedly different and illegal turn when either Holder or Melson changed the hopeful outcome of the operation to one in which alot more weapons would turn up at crime scenes in order to push for the multiple long arm sales requirement along 4 border states. It's conceivable then, that guns would stop being 'walked' across the border and a show of success in less guns for the cartels would be used to implement it in all 50 states.

This new MO was heavily fought against by ATF agents on the ground with claims that these weapons would end up killing alot of innocent people when it could have been stopped. It finally came to a boiling point when jaime zapata and brian terry were killed with some of these weapons.

Now, we have ATF agents across the southwest feeding information to Issa and his investigation, Melson has come out on his own to testify to Issa, and Holder could be left holding the bag.

Let's also remember that during some of this investigation, it's been revealed that some ATF agents actually set up the straw buys and assisted in the border crossing, which violates the Arms Export Control Act.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

dc_dux

I agree that Fast and Furious was a reckless operation under the broader Operation Gunrunner program started in 06 and someone should be held accountable. IMO, the acting ATF director who is now trying to save his own ass.

I say acting director because the Republicans in the Senate have blocked the appointment of a permanent director since 06 at the urging of the NRA.

And I agree that there are some ATF agents who are now speaking out against F&F.

But there are also numerous agents, as I pointed out (but you guys ignore), that have been asking for years for tough specific laws to deal with the trafficking of weapons across the border, given that under current laws, straw purchasers only need sign a form indicating that multiple purchases of semi-automatic weapons are solely for personal use.

Example:
Please tell me who needs 85 AK-47s for personal use? Why should legislation to address this at least be considered? I'll tell you why....the NRA.

I am trying to understand how this kind of straw purchasing will stop w/o stricter laws against trafficking; laws that WILL NOT impact law abiding citizens.

New regs that were implemented last week requiring dealers to report multiple purchases will help. But IMO and in the opinion of some former and current ATF agents, stricter laws are also needed.

Its time for the NRA to step up to the plate on this one and stop blaming everyone else.

---------- Post added at 05:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:07 PM ----------

The latest twists from the right is that Holder knew about Fast and Furious based on a speech he made in March 09 and that increased funding by the Obama administration was for Fast and Furious.

But the speech was six months before Fast and Furious and was about the increased funding for Operation Gunrunner (Bush's program) under the stimulus bill, for more personal in CA, NM, and TX and had nothing to do with the Fast and Furious operation in Arizona.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

dksuddeth

not just the NRA, but millions of us non NRA members have also implored the senate to deny an anti gunner from a director spot.

since when did 'need' determine how you exercise a RIGHT? Should we go all out to stop all gun trafficking by limiting the number of handguns, rifles, and shotguns one household may own? should we then limit the number of cars and houses people may own? how about the number of kids a family can have?

those new regs would have been an overreach of the ATFs power. the congress was right to deny funding for such an egregious move.

stricter laws are not needed. There are already too many laws. guns crossing the border violate the arms export control act.

that speech was not 6 months before F&F, since F&F was started under bush before Obama took office. Now, if Holder approved ATF agents to walk guns across the border and stimulus money was used for that purpose, now we have a problem.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

dc_dux

I'm not going to get into another gun control debate. Its pointless.

Not all ATF agents agree with you, but evidently only the ones that toe the NRA line are credible?

You evidently want to assign blame, call it part of a conspiracy to disarm law abiding citizens, but not address the problem in a comprehensive manner....and more agents and civilians will die as a result.

---------- Post added at 05:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:32 PM ----------


My understanding of the Arms Export Control Act is that it addresses arms sales to foreign governments and restrictions on arms dealers on the sale of specific technologies. Straw purchases of commonly held weapons by individuals (for other individuals) are not addressed and would not violate the act.

Operation Gunrunner began in 06 under Bush. Operation Fast and Furious, a sub-component, began in Sept 09, six months after Holder's speech.

And the ARRA funds were clearly allocated to establish four new field offices in CA and TX, along with more personnel for the US embassy in Mexico -- not for the Fast and Furious operation in Ariz.

http://www.justice.gov/archive/recov...009.pdf#page=3

You guys are really stretching it now.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

dksuddeth

you obviously are assuming facts not in evidence. I have to ask though, what problem needs to be addressed when straw buying is being encouraged by the very agency meant to stop it?

stretching it is using the agency website that's being investigated to prove your point.


the act requires licenses for any export NOT related to government use.

It authorizes the President to define defense articles and regulate their export. In so doing, he must consider the possibility that export could "support international terrorism, increase the possibility of outbreak or escalation of conflict..."

Those defense articles may not be exported without a permit, issued by the Secretary of State ( Department of State guidelines here), "except that no license shall be required for exports or imports made by or for an agency of the United States Government

(A) for official use by a department or agency of the United States Government, or

(B) for carrying out any foreign assistance or sales program authorized by law and subject to the control of the President by other means."

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

dc_dux

Straw purchasing did not begin in 09 when F&F was implemented, nor will it cease now that the operation has been halted.

One has to be a blind ideologue to infer that the problem of illegal trafficking is solely a F&F issue.

As opposed to innuendo and NRA talking points. F&F was an operation of the AZ field office. Where is the evidence that ARRA funding was provided to support it in any manner rather than to establish new field offices in CA and TX.

The act addresses the sale of weapons and transfer of technologies to governments (and other quasi-governmental organizations).

Please point to the specific section of the law under which straw purchasing (or one-to-one transfers by individuals) is a prosecutable offense.

Or at the very least, just point to an ATF official or DoJ official who states that such acts are covered by the law.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

samcol

This. This is the answer the left always likes to use whenever there's a problem. More power, money and more laws to enforce for the very agencies that have already been proven to be conspiring against us.

__________________
It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize.

dc_dux

Conspiracy against you?

As dk noted..."you are assuming facts not in evidence."

And neither one of you will still address the concerns of ATF agents that I pointed out. Their concerns wont go away by you simply ignoring them.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

samcol

The atf agents concerns don't concern me when their bosses ship the guns to the cartels.

Why wouldn't they tow the line when they work in an agency where whistle blowers get fired.

__________________
It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize.

KirStang

Dux,

I don't think suspicious purchases of firearms should automatically render one a criminal--by making large purchases, the individual who purchased dozens of AKs might have given the ATF a red flag of criminal activity. The ATF now has reasonable articulable suspicion to investigate that individual and build a case.

For example, another member on this site bought 50 Mosin Nagants (bolt action mil-surplus rifles). He likes to collect them. He is most certainly not a criminal. Would you give the ATF teeth to presume criminal activity whenever one purchases a lot of firearms?

I don't know about law enforcement. But being trained in the justice system, I am always uncomfortable when someone wants to assume criminality because 'something doesn't look right.'

__________________

dksuddeth

oh wow. I should have looked at that link from the get go. do you really consider an article based on a hearing from some of the most anti gun congress critters and senators is going to hold any weight? of course you're going to get agents concerns about toothless gun laws on an anti gun hearing.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

dc_dux

I dont want to limit any legal citizens rights. I want to give the ATF the tools they need so they dont turn to reckless operations to attempt to stop (but botch) the flow of straw purchases.

Under what law can ATF build a case if they have reasonable suspicion and if the person in question signs a form indicating that the 60+ AK-47s are for personal use...and they dont track the weapons beyond that person? How do they prove intent if the person claims they were stolen?

Or what is wrong with having dealers report multiple sales of long arms in the same manner as hand guns?

dk and sam appear to suggest that the problem is strictly the F&F program (I agree it was a terrible idea and, as I said, someone should be held accountable), but ignoring the larger issue that wont go away.

---------- Post added at 07:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:58 PM ----------

So the testimony of, or concerns expressed by, the ATF agents is not relevant?

Or the concerns expressed by the ATF agents in this article...
Weak laws, paltry resources hinder gun trafficking probes, say ATF backers | iWatch News

...because you dont like the publisher?

But I should accept everything the NRA says?

It gets tiresome to hear that any law enforcement officials suggesting the need for stricter laws to address illegal trafficking lack credibility.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

KirStang

To answer your DC_Dux, the ATF has the power to track those weapons after purchase. They are charged with enforcing the sale and transfer of arms, and they may legally use their law enforcement powers to track and arrest such an individual.

In short, I think inaction by an enforcing agency is not sufficient grounds for new laws. Does that make sense? Not only can the ATF prosecute the individual for straw purchases, they can also prosecute him or her for dealing in firearms without a license. All the ATF has to do is build a case, as law enforcement usually needs to do.

__________________

dksuddeth

as was said months ago, this wasn't reckless, this was felony stupid. The gun dealers KNEW these sales were shady and didn't want to proceed, but were encouraged to do so BY THE ATF!! how the hell does that law then not have enough teeth to stop it?

From the article you posted below:

I'd like to see the actual decisions for this, but i'm going to assume that it's difficult to prove because you're not committing a real crime. Only the transfer itself would be a crime, and even THAT is questionable.


it's also getting tiring to see people refuse to acknowledge that these sales COULD have been stopped, but were encouraged to proceed anyway just so more laws could be made to further limit the peoples right to own guns.

and one more time, i'm not a NRA member, nor am I a fan. I've never said anyone should accept what the NRA says, in fact, they are about 4 months LATE for this whole scandal.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

dc_dux

But as one ATF agent pointed out, it is very difficult to prosecute if they have to prove intent. They were able to track one case (Uriel Patino ) only as a result of Fast and Furious.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Derwood

Legal or not, the gun owner who knowingly sold one guy 80 assault rifles should be ashamed of himself

__________________
"You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

dc_dux

I agree, but it is legal.

How do we stop this?
Its not just a need for more resources to track all these purchases and build a case that is difficult to prove. At the very least, we should look to how we can strengthen existing laws.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

roachboy

i am really not seeing the logic that connects f&f to anything remotely like the pet general conspiracy theories of the ultra-right. it seems to me that dc is referring quite specifically to what actually is the case and that most of the responses are kind of dissociative. the only one that offers substantive information is dunedan's post above, and even there while i understand the points, i don't see either what holds them together in a sequence or what connects them to the ultra-right talking points.

edit---kir stang i understand....showing that it's possible to be concerned about gun rights and still make sense (thanks, sir...these things can be tiring)

can someone walk me through the steps?

or should i watch faux news to see what the dots are and how they're being filled in? because it smells of ailes. and if that's the case, the realities involved are secondary to the political usage of this obviously ill-advised operation as yet another stick to beat on the effigy of the obama administration with and from there to keep ultra-right wing identity politics appearing like it's coherent. but that's always the agenda these days.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

dc_dux

To make matters worse, IMO (and as dk noted, but not sharing my opinion) Republicans in Congress just blocked (stripped funding) for new ATF rules that would require dealers to report multiple sales of some long arms in the same manner as hand guns.

GOP amendment strips funding for new gun-sale requirements - TheHill.com

These seem like sensible regulations to me and wont hurt anyone but traffickers.

Yes, thanks to KirStang for at least focusing on real issues and real concerns from the other perspective.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Derwood

B-b-but 2nd Amendment!!!

Being a hard-line idealogue doesn't leave room for common sense regulations

__________________
"You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

dksuddeth

knowing your total disdain for guns, pick a right.....any right. what do you draw a hard line on? 4th? 5th? 1st? or are you of the mindset that ANY 'common sense' regulation should be made?

---------- Post added at 07:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:17 PM ----------

how is that going to hurt traffickers if the weapons have already been sold? it's not. therein lies the rub. the ONLY ones these regulations hurt is the average citizen.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Derwood

There are reasonable regulations on, say, free speech, but I don't hear ideologues going apeshit over it.

__________________
"You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

Rekna

We all know that DK and the rest of the right want to make sure that people can buy guns without showing any identification or waiting period. However, if they want to vote they better have a government issued photo id, a birth certificate, and proof of current residency and then wait 90 days to be eligible!

dksuddeth

government is the only entity that profits from failure.

whether this was an illegal operation or one that was poorly handled with mistakes, it would be a horrendous decision to supply another government agency with even more power. something that libs and cons haven't quite grasped the concept of yet.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."