Baraka_Guru

Are you saying that there are a bunch of nations out there who are freeloading?

You mean hundreds of billions. The second ranked military, China, spends billions (or tens of billions, if you will).

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Willravel

Sure, we're under-taxed. Even if we didn't have an out of control defense budget, we'd still probably have to raise taxes on someone in order to balance our sheets.
Asking them to question any of the evidence I've posted or question the logic of my case is not. They're refused to remove their argument from appeal to emotion.
I'm calling the Tea Party a group centered on shared hatred. I wish it were as simple as racism, I really do.

pan6467

FIrst and foremost Will, I love how you pick and choose what to reply to. You even snip out the defenses in my debate. lol.... whatever.

Look that is your view, as someone who has been there and knows some people in the tea party movement and NOT 1 is a bigot, and as a matter of fact there are 2 African Americans that I know personally in it.

I take this personally, because I am defending a GROUP of people ... not a minority that you and the press want to focus on.

You know, I'm done commenting on this.... you want to call them racist and tell me I'm defending bigots.... while you defend people who support Reverend Wright, the New Black Panther Party and Louis Farrakhan... I guess that makes you a reverse racist. BTW which group is worse?

That's quoted from my post that you quoted but somehow cut out....

Oh, you're right how many people have lost everything? What's the unemployment rate? And Marie Antoinette.... errrrr Michelle Obama can pay for 50 rooms in an expensive playground for the rich? Sounds like she truly cares about the people suffering here...

They are? Then why did I not see any when I went? And I love the way you need to attack me. I HAVE BEEN TO A FEW...... I HAVE SEEN FIRST HAND....

Almost all were white???? Wait a minute, if this is a racist, bigoted group wouldn't ALL of them have been white or were the blacks beaten down???

Oh wait, they're Uncle Toms because they don't fucking agree with you, Farrakhan, Wright, The New Black Panther Party and the far left.

(And yes, if you are going to say I support bigots and hint that I maybe racist because I defend the Tea Party.... then I'll do the same to you with the fact you defend outright or people who do defend the Farrakhans, Wrights, and NBPP... who are every bit as racist and full of hate as you say the Tea Partiers are.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

FoolThemAll

Google Images is offering a get-out-of-fallacy-free card to its biggest users.

There's what, something like 50 million tea partiers? And one picture equals 1,000 words? All Will has to do is assume each of those words is 'bigot' and he'll only have to call up a measly 50 thousand such damning and irrefutable evidences of hateful tea.

Get thee to a facebookery!

---------- Post added at 04:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:59 AM ----------

So much for that.

__________________
I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

dogzilla

No. Most of the countries on that list are in Europe. Considering the history of Europe over the last 2000 years I wouldn't use Europe as a model of success for anything. I certainly would not view the socialist state model in Europe as a success at all.

The only country on that list that I've seen as a credible economic competitor to the US in the last 40 years is Japan, and Japan's tax rates are lower than US tax rates.

---------- Post added at 08:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:41 AM ----------

[quote=Tully Mars;2812629]And when was it at 400 billion and when did it jump to 1.3 trillion? Who was in charge when that happened?{/QUOTE]

That happened in the last year of Bush's term, as a result of the bailouts, which should not have been done. If anything, the government/Federal Reserve should have been the credit source of last resort when other credit dried up, and then only to companies which were in financial position to repay the loan.


I'd cut military to what is reasonable for national defense. We don't need bases in places like Korea, Japan, Germany, etc to defend those countries. Let them defend themselves if a threat even exists. If we have bases in other countries that those countries are not substantially funding and which are not critical to US defense, then those bases should be closed.

I'd eliminate all government subsidies. Business succeed or fail on their own.

I'd look at shrinking the size of the government. We don't need a bunch of agencies duplicating each other's work, the latest example being the security agencies.

I'd bring government salaries back in line with salaries in business. There was a news story recently about federal employee's salaries being some 60% higher than equivalent non-federal jobs.

I'd cut the welfare programs significantly. I've read several times now that cost of food stamps is higher than it's ever been and rising. Unless you have a disability and cannot work, there is no reason that I should be supporting you.

Unemployment is limited to 6 months.

I'd send all of the illegal immigrants home.

I'd give the president the line item veto that's been asked for several times. That will help keep Congressional spending in check.


If they are not paying taxes that sure sounds like the definition of freeloading.
.
For money which has already been taxed, the estate tax should be zero.

Tully Mars

Yep Bush and the neo-cons spent 8 years writing checks they couldn't cover and it snow balled on them.

On the bail-outs- it always bothered me that when the guys from Wall St. showed up it was "Oh, really! That bad? Crap let me the check book, would like a hand job on your way out the door?" I don't remember any long hearings to even figure out why or how much they should be helped. It seemed like the Feds were willing to just take their word for it.

When the auto makers showed up it was "How the hell did you get here?" Well we're going have to stick a microscope up your ass first, ok?"

I was much more on board with trying to help keep the car makers up and running then bailing out Wall St. At least the automakers create something and I feel like the rust belt really can't take any more hits. The whole area has been hurting for years.

The more we become a nation that doesn't produce anything the larger the problem will get in my opinion. Really what do we make that the rest of the world wants? Seems like we're down to military gear and porn.




Some of that is likely a good move. I don't know enough about it but I think a blanket "Let's close all these overseas bases and save money might come back and bite us in the ass. I mean what happens when NK goes and drops a nuke on SK? But I think we have bases in places we just don't need anymore.

I'd like to see us put an end to this silly war on drugs. It didn't work for booze and it's never going to work for drugs. The amount of money spent on this is crazy.

Of course both of these ideas are going to have "cause and effect." You close huge military bases and end the war on drugs... the people building and supplying these efforts as well as those actively engaged will be out of work. The unemployment rate is around 10%. Doing this with the slash of the pen and without a plan will most certainly add to that rate.

I'd like to see this happen. But again I don't think at this point you can just do it and be done with it. The effect of doing it without fore thought and planning could do more harm then good.

No kidding, just look at how much the the government has expanded on nation security. We have agencies that have no idea what other agencies are doing. It's really insane in my opinion.

You've been doing this for a while now... "I read... There was a story and I heard" It would really be nice if you backed these comment up with a link to a credible source.

I'm not saying you're wrong. I'd just like to see the data that supports your claim.

I worked in law enforcement for a long time (over 20 years) and I can tell you in that field the city guy makes less then the county guy and the state guy makes more then them and the Fed make the most (this is all "usually" I'm sure someone somewhere could find a anomaly to this statement.) But you really can't compare law enforcement to private work. But you can compare city to county, county to state and state to Fed.

Again with the "I read." Read where?

Might be true, the unemployment rate is really up there. I've always been a fan of "workfare." Really? You can't find work?" "Ok, fine here's and job doing "x" You want support, you have to work for it."

I don't know just throwing people off unemployment and telling them to fend for themselves might have some pretty negative effects on the economy. Not to mention it might put many families out in the streets. I like not to see more tent cities and soup lines.

I would not be opposed to something like the The Civilian Conservation Corps tried again. "You don't have work? Can't find work? Here, here's a paint brush. There now you have a job and we get some maintenance work done on your public spaces and buildings."


And your plan for doing this? Any idea what this would cost? I think anyone who's looked at this issue seriously and honestly has come to the conclusion that "sending all the illegals home" is just not an honest option at this point. Recently people like Lindsey Graham have proposed realistic solutions to this problem. Every time someone develops a workable, real plan to deal with this problem they get shouted down. Chants of "send them home!' will not solve this problem


Concur, but there would need to be some way of oversight for even that. Giving one person too much power is usually bad.



We just disagree. I again assert I believe most, by far, Americans are not freeloaders.

I disagree. If you did nothing more then being born into a wealthy family you can pony up a portion of your inheritance. Sure maybe you'll end up with a smaller jet or shorter yacht but you'll live.

I'd also put an end to all these off shore shill company that pay no US taxes. "Really? you're running a multi-billion dollar corporation that earns billions of dollars from the US and you run it all out of a PO box in Grand Cayman?" I call bull shit.

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Derwood

what did those people (those who inherited the money) do to earn it?

__________________
"You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

Tully Mars

Nada, zip... nothing. They were born on third base and many act as if they got there by hitting a triple. Fact is they never swung a bat. Just born into the right family at the right time.

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Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Baraka_Guru

Seriously? Japan's problems with national debt are far worse than that of the U.S.

Japan's debt is 192% of GDP (2009), whereas the U.S. national debt is sitting at approximately 91% (2010). The IMF is expecting Japan's debt to hit 250% of GDP by 2015. The IMF's proposed solution for Japan? Increase their consumption tax by 5%.

Just to put that into perspective for you, that would be the equivalent of a U.S. public debt of $25.6 trillion instead of $13.3 trillion. So using GDP as a metric, for the U.S. to be in as bad shape as Japan, the national debt would have to nearly double.

Japan's hardly a model to follow.

GDP vs National Debt by Country

And why would you use 2,000 years of European history to consider a contemporary economic environment? And which socialist model are you talking about?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Seaver

No... just fucking no. After 8.5 months of searching every God damned day for jobs I finally got one.... making 30% of what I was making before. If I had a house it would have been foreclosed, If I had a car I was making payments on it would have been repo'd.

So you're in support of Government Healthcare?

People aren't unemployed because they are lazy in the current market, and I will help kick out any Republican who says so.

__________________
"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

Willravel

I responded to all of your points. If you'd like me to reiterate, ask away.
I'm glad no one you know in the Tea Party is a bigot, but that's not really what I'm talking about. It's not as simple as bigotry. Sure, some Tea Partiers are obviously bigoted, but the main point I was making is that the movement's commonality is hatred of something. It's not just racial hatred, though. As I said above, for some of them it's hatred of the poor, for some of them it's hatred of abortion, for some of them it's hatred of the president (and not everyone that hates President Obama feels that way because of his race).

How do your friends feel about President Obama? Do they make Marie Antoinette remarks about him and his family, too?
For the hundredth time in this thread, please show me all these people that are telling the racists or haters to leave. Please show me evidence. I'm begging you, prove me wrong.
Tu quoque fallacy, eh?

Why is it that you always center on racial bigotry? I'm not just talking about that, as it's only one part of the Tea Party's problem. Can you speak to the hatred of the poor? Or hatred of a woman's right to choose? Or the xenophobia?

This reads like bullshit. I'm sorry to say it, but it really does. Every Tea Partier, when confronted, pretends their concerns are legitimate (btw, all of the concerns you listed are incorrect. Illegal immigration isn't bankrupting states, crime is low, and the Tea Party works on behalf of special interest groups whether they know it or not, as they're organized and funded by corporate power). I know what the Tea Party likes to think of itself as, but that isn't an accurate reflection of what it really is. As has been pointed out countless times before, there were no Tea Party movements during the Bush administration when Federal spending was out of control, corporate power in Washington was on the steep rise, and the Constitution was being pissed on. The silence on the right was deafening. Not one Tea Party or even vaguely conservative or Republican protest took place. That fact alone removes any and all legitimacy from the movement's supposed goals. In other words, if the Tea Partiers really cared about these things, they'd care about them regardless of who was president. Because that's not the case, the whole movement is revealed as dishonest.
What the fuck are you talking about? The Obama's aren't rich people. Barack Obama just finished paying off his college loans. Community organizers don't make a lot of money, you know. State senators do alright, and Senators do quite well, but that only accounts for the last few years. The idea that the Obamas are aristocrats is absurd and based in fantasy.
I welcome you to rebuke the photographic evidence.
What is it with you and race? It's not JUST racial hatred. It's hatred in general that unites the Tea Party. Some Tea Partiers are racist, some aren't. Jesus, how much more clear do I have to make this?
There's literally no situation in which it's okay for a white person to use the term "Uncle Tom".
This shit again? "Hi, I'm Pan and I'm not a racist. No seriously, I'm not a racist... are you calling me a racist?! HOW DARE YOU INSINUATE I'M A RACIST! I SHOULD RUIN YOUR THREAD!!" No one has called you racist ever on TFP. Cut that shit out.

roachboy

the tea party is a straight-forward populist neo-fascist movement.

what structures--or appears to---alot of the various (incoherent) things that the tea partiers are freaked out about is some imaginary natural order of things which they for some reason in the main seem to imagine achieves its best expression alongside a captialism that has never existed outside the tiresome fantasies of the free-marketeers.

they like the repressive state because it keeps people in their place.

they hate the redistributive state because, in the tiny shared world of the tea party, the redistrrbutive state takes your shit and gives it to people who deserve it less than you with the result that those people get all uppity.

uppity people further victimize the white petit bourgeois, the ultimate victim of all things modern. judging from the teapartying, this demographic is told that they imagine things would be hunky dory if only if only the bad redistributive state would stop taking their shit. that way the state could go away, unless you need it or like what it does--but hey, coherence isn't at a real premium here, it's all touchy-feely kinda inverted hopey-changey shit: we don't want hope, we don't want change---we want the modern world to go away. and stop taking our shit. and stop encouraging all this uppitness on the part of people who naturally are less than us. you know, less virtuous, less authentic, less American.

is this racist? well, it's an underlying structure behind almost all racisms so it's implicitly racist at every turn--but its not necessarily explicitly so.
whence the Outrage of the folk above who skate along the edges of this nasty unpleasant neo-fascist discourse and get all Outraged when they are called out on it.
they doth protest too much.

__________________
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spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Tully Mars

You lazy freaking freeloader.. 8 and 1/2 months! How dare you! (I'm joking of course) Really I know so many people who have hit the pavement hard looking for work and it's just no there. Near where I used to live in Oregon there is a paper mill that makes a lot of the paper towels that Costco carries. Not long after I moved south they shut down 1 of the 3 paper machines they were operating. So basically 1/3 of the work force was laid off. I have several friends who walked into work one day and in their time card slot was a notice that as of the next week they would no longer need to report for work. I'm sure it was worded nice but basically "nice knowing ya, next Thursdays make sure you take home all the stuff in your locker as you will not be returning on Friday." One friend in particular sticks out in my mind. 19-20yrs on the job, hired right out of high school. All he's every done is run a paper making machine. Had a kid in college and another ready to head off in a few months. Family health insurance ran out after, I think, three months. His kids are all working low paying jobs, one is trying to stay in school to finish his degree, think he's going half time and working full time (fast food.) Mom's job always was half time with the county head start program. He's now, almost three years later, pumping gas at night and picking shrimp or whatever seafood is currently in season during the day. So far they've manged to keep the house but lost a car and a boat. Surely their credit sucks.

The thought of my tax dollars going to freeloaders like him and you really pisses me off... NOT. No, no I'd much rather pay for cut taxes on the upper 10% because you know they're going to spend what they get to keep and that'll keep everyone working and happy. BULL FUCKING SHIT... it has never worked that way.


Yep the US is really alone in not having some type of national health care. The US is the only country doing it right, right? I don't buy that load of crap either. Hell I live in Mexico and the health care I get here is way better the health care I got in the US. For about $500 I could get in on the IMSS (Mexican national health care) but I buy private insurance that covers just about everything for around 1200 USD a year. For what I get in care and coverage it would likely cost me much closer to 1200 USD a month for the same in the US.

It's time to stop thumping our chests and claiming the US has the best health care in the world and make moves to at least catch up with Cuba. I mean sure the US has great care available... if you have the cash to pay for it. If not- Well fuck you! You freeloading bastard!

Cause that's the America I know a country full of free loading pieces of shit unwilling to work and only interested in sucking off the teat of big government.

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pan6467

I'm going to make this real simple... because I'm beyond pissed.


Did you or did you not direct the highlighted part at me? Yes or no, don't give any fucking but... you are misreading.... fuck the excuses Will... did you or did you not direct the highlighted part at me for defending the Tea Party and as a response to my first post?

But then you say it's not just racial.... but you point out how blacks are very rare... you don't say, blacks, gays, etc... YOU say blacks.
Who's playing the race card? Not, homophobic, not xenophobic, not anti non Christian, not sexists..... the ONLY word YOU use is RACIST.

But did YOU or did YOU not make a point of saying this earlier, I even highlighted it for you?

So, who brought race into it? Who's saying that, "yeah there was a Tea Party and there were very few blacks there"..... That is EXACTLY what you are saying. Don't BS you're way out...

So when I make a rebuttal to THAT SPECIFIC statement, YOU made, I get this

But Will, who brought the race card into it? YOU did. I make a rebuttal to a specific statement YOU MADE... but I'm the one bringing race into it... BULLSHIT. Did you say, "mostly there were white, non gay, no hispanic, males, who come from a lower middle class and down?"

NO, you made a point out of saying only "almost all were white." So, I ask again WHO IS PLAYING THE RACE CARD?

And no one here called W worse? He was fucking compared to Hitler, remember Will? You, Host, a group of us here, myself even all compared and made Hitler references to W.

But that is ok. Comparing Michelle Obama to Marie Antoinette is wrong.

Let's see unemployment rates are how high? And Barack is saying that the economy is in a deeper hole than expected and we have to work harder?

Follow me there? Is that true or not? Do I need to pull a Host and research and put the proof up?

Our government is losing it's tax base and going further and further into debt? True or not?

People are losing their homes, their cars, the banks who have been bailed out are raising credit card rates and fees causing more people financial pain? True or not?

We have reports that say we are losing the middle class and small businesses are barely surviving? true or not?

Now a very basic look at 1790's France, the government was bankrupt, the middle class took the brunt and were taxed to to the brink of bankruptcy, reforms to "help" the people were corrupt and failed miserably. BUT, the King and the court, while the peasants and middle class were losing everything, basically made sure they had the best of everything at the cost of the worker. True or not?

SO as our citizenry is losing everything we have built for 200+ years, and Michelle Obama takes a trip to one of the most exclusive and expensive resorts in Europe, it's not like Marie Antoinette telling us "let them eat cake... I'll do as I wish on their money." ....

And which is it, are the taxpayers paying for this or the Obama's? You say the Obama's, yet, in your own words So are taxpayers? Are lobbyists? who is paying? Ultimately the fact is, it is us the people paying for it with our tax dollars.

To make excuses for that is fucking ignorant. There is no excuse. If and when Obama gets this country back to where people can breathe financially, then maybe a trip like that could be understandable... but when they are talking double dip recession and Obama is telling us to tighten our belts while he and his family do the opposite on OUR tax dollars??? Come on, now Will not even you can be so fucking loyal to the King that you can't make the comparisons.

Standard game when you and your friends here want to change focus. WHERE DID I EVEN COME CLOSE TO SAYING THAT?????????? But when I start making points you can't defend you (etal) bring it up and try to change focus.

So I will reply ONE time to this and we shall not see YOU or me use it again...OK? OK.

And yes, when you rant about how full of hate the Tea Partiers (which like I have said I strongly believe in what they stand for, I just dislike the talking heads trying to control it) are and insinuate or even tell me, (I'll assume it was insinuation) that I defend bigots, I need to defend myself. You are by telling me that because I believe in the movement and that I have gone to a few am full of hatred, that because I defend them, I am a defender of bigots... sooooo what should I do? Allow you to keep making insinuations and when I make a rebuttal, keep getting that pounded down my throat and not be able to say, "Fuck, you I"m not and I get tired of the bullshit where you say I do?"

One thing about the TFP politics and why so many have left is it is ok to insinuate or flat out call people bigots, defender of bigots, believer in a hateful movement, and so on... but when they defend themselves... it's turned and "YOU are not being attacked." BULLSHIT.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

powerclown

You are confusing hate with dissent. Therefore, it is my belief you are speaking from a position of fear, not enlightenment.

Tully Mars

You know this comes up a lot, the first family travels and it costs the US tax payers money. Nancy Reagan lived like a queen, redid the entire White House and traveled a lot. At first, if memory serves me correctly, she was really applauded for bringing culture and class back to the White House after the Carter years. The as unemployment rose and the economy started to tank she was criticized for it. She was mainly criticized by the left. The Bush Sr. took office and the left again cried fowl at her expenses... again mostly by the left. Enter Hillary and everything she did was a fucking joke according to the right and she was criticized. Then move on to Laura and her trips with her kids. I recently saw news clips that showed her on safari in Africa. Evidently she went there a couple time, mostly on the tax payers dime. And the left complained. Bush spent nearly as much time in Crawford as he did in the Oval Office. And the left complained. Now the Obamas take vacations and trip and the right is throwing fits.

In my opinion it's all a lot of hot air. In this day in age there's nothing Bush couldn't do from Texas that he couldn't do from the Oval Office. Hell back when the world still ran on telegrams Truman spent weeks, maybe months, in Key West (my kinda guy.) The amount of money spent on the travel of the first family is so little compared to the US budget and the good will they spread by showing up in Africa and Spain is probably worth the cost of their travel. I'd be willing to bet Laura and Michelle both had official business on all of these trips.

We get caught up arguing about such little things and calling names that the big issues never ever get solved.

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Willravel

You're spending your Sunday morning being angry on the internet? Why? I'm not here to be angry, I'm here to discuss.
Dunedan was specifically defending the bigots in the Tea Party. I was specifically addressing that. Are you intentionally trying to change my argument or are you just reading what you want to read? Honestly, what's your problem?
Who keeps bringing up "Farrakhans, Wrights, and NBPP"? You.
I did because part of the Tea Party is racist. Why are you not getting my simple point? The people of the Tea Party have one thing in common: hate. Some of them are racially bigoted, some of them are gender bigoted, some of them hate the poor, some of them hate the president, some of them hate immigrants, etc. etc. Do you understand? The Tea Party itself isn't racist, but part of it is and the rest of it is there because of a shared hatred of something. That's the point.
I've posted tu quoque a few times already, but you don't seem to understand. A tu quoque argument attempts to discredit the opponent's position by asserting his failure to act consistently in accordance with that position; it attempts to show that a criticism or objection applies equally to the person making it. It is considered an ad hominem argument, since it focuses on the party itself, rather than its positions. If you can't actually address my points, don't bother responding.
President Obama is not responsible for the problems in the economy. He's not made every effort I would have to fix things, but even a conservative can see that we're in a hole because of Wall Street and deregulation, not President Obama. How can he be responsible for a recession that started months before he took office? Answer: he can't. You know that as well as anyone, but as Jon Stewart would say, it doesn't fit in your narrative.
True.
True.
True.
And that's when you went off the rails. Aside from the respectable $400k annual salary, President Obama and his family are nothing like the aristocracy in France before the revolution. Ask roachboy. The Obamas don't have the "best of everything", the richest 1% of Americans do. The corporate elite are the aristocracy in the United States, not the guy that's president for 4-8 years. The Obamas don't get the best of everything at the cost of anyone. Never once did I complain that the Bush family was living in the White House or that Bush made $400,000 a year, ever, because that comes with the job. Being president is one of the most difficult jobs in the world, so of course it pays respectably. If the president only made $30,000 a year, it would be unfair.
You're acting like everything suddenly went to shit in January of 2009. Which is dishonest. Hyperbolic "losing everything we have built for 200+ years" crap aside, we started heading downhill in 1980, not 2008.

As for Michelle Obama, she actually has money of her own. Vice President for Community and External Affairs for University of Chicago Hospitals pays about $275k a year, iirc. She's also worked for TreeHouse Foods on the board, which is a salaried position. I don't know where you get this idea that somehow she's spending the state's money on vacations. And if she is spending some of the $400k from the president's salary, what business is it of yours? He's earned that money. He's not spending money from Social Security or pensions, he's spending his salary.

You have a job, right? When you spend money you've earned, do people hassle you for spending company money on things for your personal use? Of course not. That would be absurd.
Okay, you're obviously just trolling now. Calling the democratically elected president a king is stupid. Stop wasting forum space with this shit.
If you're defending the Tea Party as a whole, you are defending bigots because there are bigots doing racist things in the Tea Party. That's not complicated. You're also defending xenophobes, people that hate the poor, people that hate 'abortionists', people that hate the president, people that hate taxes, people that hate Pelosi and Reid, people that hate the federal government, people that hate women, people that hate regulations on the market, and people that hate people like me. It's a collection of different people that hate different things, brought together by Fox News through fear to pool their hatred into an astroturf movement.

roachboy

aside. on the "marie antoinette" business.

first off it's obviously idiotic but in a funny way.

one of the things that drove alot of 18th century parisian (mostly) people who weren't about louis 16 kinda mad about marie antoinette was that she was austrian. foreign. "not really french"...


it's interesting now to see this same invective surfacing from the tea partiers, a movement that flirts so much with racism.

first there's all that birther stuff. alot of more vile things attached to it.
the unifying feature? the claim that barack obama is not a "real american."

and now michelle obama is not a real american either.

so now they're both ëquivalent insofar as they are both "foreign"
foreign with respect to what?
why "real americans" of course.

it's hard not to see that "real american" in teabagger discourse is code for white.

and the whole of that "real american"/Other business as a displacement.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

ASU2003

A few of those people are the unemployed, but I wonder if they counted kids, retired people on a fixed Social Security income, prisoners and the disabled just to make their number bigger as a shock value.

I think they lead happier, less-stressful, and more enjoyable lives. They aren't nearly as paranoid about losing their job, getting more than the next guy, and scamming the system to get away without paying taxes.

And this gets to a bigger economic question, why do we need a 0% unemployment rate with everyone working 50+ hours a week? We have made great advances in technology to eliminate millions of jobs. One farmer can now do the work of dozens a hundred years ago. A solar and wind farm can run with much lower manpower requirements than a coal power plant. Electric vehicles made out of non-rusting parts could eliminate millions of jobs from people repairing and maintaining existing cars to oil drillers and refiners. There will be some jobs temporarily as these things ramp up, but when you look at it as people should work from 25-35 and have enough to retire after 10 years. And in 50 years, when AI and machines do 95% of the jobs (24/7/365), we will need an economic system that allows people to survive without working or 'owning' anything.

Willravel

I volunteer to work part time for the good of the economy!

dogzilla

Absolutely not. Between the unions who thought they should get all the money the company made and company management that couldn't say no to the unions and could not market a quality car until the last few years, Chrysler, Ford and GM should have been allowed to go out of business. Instead, Obama nationalized GM and Chrysler.

I for one will not buy another car made by those three companies.

We need to find high end things to build. The US work force is just too expensive to build commodity stuff.

Boeing manages to sell aircraft around the world. This page lists some 800 orders for one aircraft.

List of Boeing 787 orders - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm in the computer business, software for large, complex systems. At this time we don't have a credible competitor outside the US. Maybe in five or ten years, but not now.

The PC manufacturing business on the other hand is a commodity business. Anybody can build one. Asia does this very well and we can't compete.

No. There's enough damage done to society, and not just the users themselves that drugs should not be legalized. Drug dealers at the middleman and above level are one instance where I support the death penalty.

Here's the article I read claiming federal employees were paid 60% more than private sector employees.

How Americans Are Overtaxed to Overpay the Civil Service | The Heritage Foundation

Some of this might be hype but there's another article that makes a similar claim.

Federal pay ahead of private industry - USATODAY.com

Regardless of the exact percentage, salary and benefits need to be no more than equivalent to private sector.

Here's an article describing how the number of food stamp recipients has increased.
Senate cuts $12 billion from food stamp budget as record numbers apply for benefits

Unfortunately this article also shows how the Democrats turned a $12 billion cut into a $26 billion giveaway

Conduct workplace searches, make sure the companies have the required paperwork. Bus tickets for those who don't have the required visas. I'd also step up border enforcement big time for a year or two to show we mean business.

Send the illegals home and give the unemployed better odds at finding jobs, as noted here Hiring Illegal Immigrants for Katrina Reconstruction : NPR

If Congress thinks the vetoed item is important enough, they can write a new bill and override the president's veto. If it's just a giveaway to get a Congressman's vote, then the president saved us some money.

Derwood

This "50% of the people don't pay taxes" meme is absurd and has to stop. they may not pay federal income taxes, but they still play state, local, FICA, Social Security, Medicare, and, most importantly, pay sales tax, which is regressive

__________________
"You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

FuglyStick

The sign of a Real American--refusing to buy american made products. "I'll just line the pockets of a foreign corporation instead of a domestic one. That'll show 'em!" You betcha.

__________________
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Baraka_Guru

A part of me thinks this would only lead to a worker shortage and/or inflationary pressure, because what kind of American wants to earn an "illegal's wage"? Not such a good thing to do during a recovery.

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Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
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dogzilla

The people who pay income tax also pay these same taxes. Those who have an income and aren't paying any income taxes need to pay income taxes.

---------- Post added at 05:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:26 PM ----------

Explain to me why I should buy junk just because the junk is made by an American company. Note that Toyota, which is the manufacturer of my current car, does have plants in the USA.

FuglyStick

Note that American manufacturers have a better quality rating than your beloved Toyota, and your reasoning is bullshit.

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roachboy

so dogzilla, you seem an unreconstructed supply sider, someone who manages to be able to recycle all the hoary olde sentences despite the pounding they've been subjected to at the hands of a reality that, repeat though supply-siders will, does not and will not act in the way their metaphysics holds it will.

but are you sympathetic to the tea party?
you may have posted something to this effect earlier but i missed it.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

dogzilla

Yes I am sympathetic to the tea party, primarily for the economic and individual accountability considerations.

As far as the social issues, to the extent I'm a tea party member. I've never attended any of their rallies but did consider it.

Abortion, against it, but not an election issue for me except for federal funding for abortion outside the cases of rape, incest and health of the mother.

Gay rights, don't care, not an election issue.

Illegal immigration. Against amnesty. For deporting all illegal immigrants so they can start over at the end of the line in their home country. An election issue.

Death penalty. In favor of it in cases where the accused admits it, where the accused is caught in the act or on video, or where the evidence has been carefully examined and validated. Minor election issue.

For equal rights. Against special rights for special classes like affirmative action. Not an election issue.

Criminal law - for sending the criminal to jail. Sheriff Joe in Arizona has the right idea. Minor election issue.

---------- Post added at 06:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:30 PM ----------

As this article points out, quality is evaluated over the short term
Was Toyota's Quality That Great To Begin With?

I keep cars until they are dead. My history of why I won't buy another GM, Ford or Chrysler car

1969 Pontiac Firebird - Electrical problems, radiator problems. If I drove it in the rain it would fill up with water thanks to body rust. Dead around 75K miles

1974 Pontiac Firebird - Timing belt/chain, busted ball joint, radiator problems, electrical problems, bolts holding transmission in place came loose and transmission partially fell out. Dead around 75K miles.

1980 Chevrolet Chevette - Fan belt pulley on crankshaft busted at 9K miles. Timing belt twice. Rusted so badly it would no longer pass inspection. Dead about 100K miles.

1983 Plymouth Horizon - Oil leaks, misc mechanical problems. Dead at 100K miles.

1990 Toyota Camry - no repairs outside normal maintenance. Gave it to my stepdaughter at 120K miles, dead around 160K miles.

1996 Toyota Corolla - replaced the starter. My wife insisted I replace the timing belt at 200K miles. Still running with 220K miles.

2001 Honda Accord - One significant repair, don't remember what. Still running at 150K miles.

Willravel

Just out of curiosity, Dogzilla, what's your take on the lack of Tea Party protests between 2000 and 2008? I'm sure you're aware it was under the Bush administration that we saw tax cuts without corresponding spending decreases, expensive wars without increased taxes or decreased spending to pay for them, Federal bailouts for the banking collapse without any tax increases or spending decreases to compensate, and a general set of fiscally irresponsible behaviors from the Republican executive and Republican (until 2006, of course) legislature. These things would seem to me to be huge deals to anyone that has strong feelings about fiscal responsibility and accountability. Do you think it has to do with, perhaps, a lack of perspective with "your guy" is in office? Or do you think it's deeper, that these people don't actually care about fiscal responsibility but are using it as a pretext for undermining the president? Or a third option?

FuglyStick

Individual results have nothing to do with empirical data.

And everyone knows that American cars built in the 80s were shit--that's no secret. That has absolutely NOTHING to do with manufacturing standards today.

Again, you got nothing.

__________________
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dogzilla

Yes I am sympathetic to the tea party, primarily for the economic and individual accountability considerations.

As far as the social issues, to the extent I'm a tea party member. I've never attended any of their rallies but did consider it.

Abortion, against it, but not an election issue for me except for federal funding for abortion outside the cases of rape, incest and health of the mother.

Gay rights, don't care, not an election issue.

Illegal immigration. Against amnesty. For deporting all illegal immigrants so they can start over at the end of the line in their home country. An election issue.

Death penalty. In favor of it in cases where the accused admits it, where the accused is caught in the act or on video, or where the evidence has been carefully examined and validated. Minor election issue.

For equal rights. Against special rights for special classes like affirmative action. Not an election issue.

Criminal law - for sending the criminal to jail. Sheriff Joe in Arizona has the right idea. Minor election issue.

As far as the tea party being a hate group, no. I have a couple cousins who have participated in these rallies. They are just as rational and non-violent as anyone else.

The proposition 8 supporters are another story. A Google search for threats by proposition 8 supporters turned up a number of hits.

Proposition 8 Email Threats | abc30.com

Clip Syndicate Video: Worship.Name

FuglyStick

Might I add, those shitty products that America was manufacturing in the 80s is one of the primary reasons conservatives get all misty eyed and nostalgic when they fondly recall the "boom" era of Reaganomics.

You can't have it both ways, chief.

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AZIZ! LIGHT!

dogzilla

I think that people in general thought they were doing well thru those years and weren't as likely to complain. I think the combination of the economic crash combined with the huge jump in the deficit projected to continue for years was the main reason for the protests now. I don't see it as a pretext for undermining the president.

Tully Mars

So let me see if I understand. Drug dealers? Execute them. Illegals, buy'em a bus ticket and tighten our borders. Poor people who have problems buying food and medicine, fuck'em they're not paying their fair share. And American made products are crap so I'm not buying them, the people that make them are lazy jack wads... don't care about them.

Did I miss anything?

So since drugs have a negative effect on society why not get rid of all negative effects on society? I mean as long as you're going to go all big brother on druggies why not go after alcohol and trans fats? I mean it seems kind of counter productive to your smaller government theme but what the heck. Bar tenders and bar owners... up against this wall please. Own a McDonalds? Join the bar owners and bartenders.

Oh, you worked at Ford for 27yrs? Really, I don't care fuck you.

Got nothing to eat? Stop being lazy, get a job or starve.

Here illegally? Here the big government, that I rail against, is going to get bigger so we can by you a bus ticket home. Get out of the country and don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.


Seriously I read your responses and they sounds like two things. One- I got/or am getting mine, fuck the rest of you lazy bastards. And two- I'll keep suggesting shit that's either been tried and failed or studied and shown not to work because the only other option is going to make me crack open my wallet and pay for all the crap I supported for the past eight years.

You come up with silly, simple unworkable solutions (most of which have been tried repeatedly and shown to fail) to serious complicated problems. And seem to have serious dislike for the US population in general. Maybe you should move some place else?

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Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

uncle phil

tea party?

what the fuck is this, boston in the 1700s?

let's get back on track with what's ailing us now, not some bimbo's idea of what we think we're thinking...

(damn, i hate getting involved in politics; and ya wanna know why? 'cause nobody knows what the fuck he/she is talking about - just what he/she hears on cnn/faux/abc/nbc/abc/nytimes/onion/whatever...

rant over...)

should i color this yellow?

__________________
"We were wrong, terribly wrong. (We) should not have tried to fight a guerrilla war with conventional military tactics against a foe willing to absorb enormous casualties...in a country lacking the fundamental political stability necessary to conduct effective military and pacification operations. It could not be done and it was not done."
- Robert S. McNamara
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"We will take our napalm and flame throwers out of the land that scarcely knows the use of matches...
We will leave you your small joys and smaller troubles."
- Eugene McCarthy in "Vietnam Message"
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never wrestle with a pig.
you both get dirty;
the pig likes it.

powerclown

I get where youre coming from on this, but in the past 5-6 years (and with the help of foreign car makers like Toyota and Mazda) the quality of american cars has gone up exponentially. I think one of the best things about this country is freedom to choose -- Choices -- and I admit the japanese foreign cars (among others) are highly engineered and reliable. The same is now true of most of the american car companies' products. Some of them may be hideously dog-ugly (coughchryslerdodgecough) but they are reliable and well-assembled. I don't know if they have abetter reliability rating than their competitors, but I understand brand loyalty and don't think there is anything wrong with it. Its the nature of a free trade competitive market. And the american car companies have responded.

dogzilla

Not exactly. What I've observed from various news reports is that drug addiction tends to result in higher crime rates including violent crime since the addicts steal property to support their habit. I'm not particularly fond of the idea of crack, heroin, meth, etc addicts roaming my neighborhood because we abandoned the fight against drugs.

You specifically pointed out the auto bailout. My response to that was that they, not American workers in general, brought this upon themselves because they were unable to build a marketable product. Employees get part of the blame for this too, thanks to the UAW and it's insistence on unreasonable pay, benefits and working conditions.

After several cars made by those companies that turned out to be junk, I'm unwilling to spend my own money to make a $20K or so bet that they have their act together now when I know I can buy other brands and expect good results.

I'm quite willing to buy American made product when it's a quality product. I'm not going to buy junk just because it has an American flag on it.

Other problems don't have the same effect on society. I haven't heard of too many cases where people mugged someone because they couldn't get a Big Mac.

How is this going to significantly increase the size of the government? We have a border patrol now. Let them do their jobs. We also have military now that can assist with protecting the border. I've noted before that Mexico seems to have no problem with enforcing its borders. If Mexico can do it, why can't we?

Tully Mars

Well according the news I see/read living in Mexico is damn dangerous and I should get the hell out of here right now. I rather take a nice long walk on my beach instead. Which I do every night and will as soon I get done writing this reply.

Maybe trans fats don't lead people to crime but after years of working law enforcement I can certainly tell you booze sure as hell does. The streets are filled with addicts and drunks now, tax it and use the funds to treat the addict.

Leave people who want to smoke pot the fuck alone (since you're probably wondering no I do not use marijuana and usually only drink on a weekends)

Why zero in on one group and not the other? As long as you're going to tell people how to live and have big government enforce it, enforce it evenly.




A few short posts ago you stated-

So which is it? Are you going to step (aka increase the size of) or will you be able to do it with out stepping up. I fail to see how already over worked border agents are going to find and deport 11 million people.

And you think Mexico's borders are secure? That's a statement that's shows you're either an ill informed or misinformed person.

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Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

pan6467

When one is implying, in a public forum, I am filled with hate and bigotry and knows nothing about me as a person, yes, I get a little angry especially when I am just bringing forth MY beliefs. And not one of them has anything to do with hatred or bigotry... but someone has to imply it does.

It was you quoting ME and saying that so don't you dare play fucking innocent and say... Ooo I was answering someone else. It was my post you quoted and therefore it gives every indication you were replying to me.
Who keeps saying the Tea Party is full of hate and as I showed above you only really use racism... you mention the other prejudices but you use only racism as an example... I'm just saying, if you are going to say I am a defender of bigots because I support the Tea Party... then you are a reverse racist because you support people who listen to them.

You want to label me but I can't dare label you.... BULLSHIT.

But as I have shown above... RACE is what you focus on.


I see. So when it was Bush all the comparisons to Hitler and Naziism and calling him King George from the left were ok.... but now that Obama is president, any comparisons, rightfully or just in one man's opinion, it's wrong and you want to get all pissy and defensive over it.

Bullshit. If I compared Bush to Hitler because I believed there were comparisons to be made. Then I will do the same to Obamas and the Bourbon family of revolutionary France... don't like it? Aw well, ignore it. I won't stop the comparisons.

And if you are defending people who defend and stand with Farrakhan, Wright, the New Black Panther Party, people that hate the rich (yet are some of the richest people in this country, people that hated Bush, people that hated Gingrich, Limbaugh, Fox News, want to regulate and take rights away, want to turn the Constitution into something that allows only their views, and so on... then you must be a hate mongering person also.

Same bullshit analogy.

See, the problem.... everyone is so concerned about hating each other no one wants to work TOGETHER to find common ground and become united... instead we work to stay divided... and you are part of the problem, I am most everyone discussing politics today is.... and that dear, dear Will... is the BIGGEST problem because the old saying is extremely true "United we stand, divided we fall."

And you can defend yourself and Pelosi and Reid and Obama but the truth of the matter is, we are all being driven by HATRED right now and it is destroying this country. This side wants only what they want ... the other side wants only what they want and instead of middle ground and trying to UNDERSTAND the other side... we are told and preached to and have the media and our own politicians and parties telling us to hate the other side.

So don't sit there and act like you are all righteous and the Left is all righteous and only the other side hates. It's fucking bullshit and laughable.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Willravel

We all know quite a bit about you, Pan. You've posted quite a bit about your personal feelings on myriad issues. One of the things we know about you is you have a temper and you tend to fly off the handle. Another thing is you have trouble seeing straight on the topic of race. You routinely accuse people of calling you a racist when no one has said any such thing.

This thread is about the Tea Party movement as a whole, not about you.
It was me replying to your response to my original statement. My original statement has nothing to do with you, and it was that statement I was referencing. It was never anything else, so stop trying to play the victim again. For the record, you are defending bigots by defending the Tea Party movement as a whole, which includes racists doing racist things. You don't get to support the Tea Party as a whole without doing so. If you don't want to support bigots, you can't support the Tea Party movement.
There's no such thing as reverse racism. There's either racism or not racism. I am not a racist, I don't hate any race, therefore you can't accuse me of racism.
Someone call whine-11 so we can get Pan a wambulance. Your labels don't stick and mine do. You can cry about it all you want, but it will remain true until you do some reflection and realize the truth.
Calling him King George has nothing to do with aristocracy, it has to do with his attitude that he could ignore the will of the majority. And it was hyperbole, I readily admit. What you're doing is simply wrong. The Obamas are not aristocratic in any way, and your characterization of them as such demonstrates you have lost your perspective.
I welcome you to go through my entire post history and find any instance of me even mentioning Farrakhan, Wright, or the NBPP, let alone supporting them. You'll quickly discover no such reference. I don't support them nor do I buy into your false equivalence between them and the Tea Party. The fact is there's no liberal counterpart to the Tea Party you can accuse me of supporting. We don't do that. We don't have astroturf protests because what we're protesting almost never aligns with corporate interests. You, on the other hand, have several times in this thread said you support the Tea Party.
I wasn't told the Tea Party was one of hatred by the mainstream media, I actually went out to them and discovered it myself.

The left isn't perfect. We have a lot of trouble rallying together for causes and ever since Reagan, we've been struggling to form an identity, but we're certainly in better order than anything on the right. Obstructionism in the legislature, racism from the birthers, hatred and ignorance from the Tea Party, partisanship on the bench, anti-intellectualism from the creationists, torture and never ending war from the chickenhawks, and at the center of it all is pure, unadulterated corporate greed. It's quite a mess.