pan6467

Having re-read #17, and hopefully reading it right, I owe you an appology. I though you were being sarcastic and telling me that somehow the event Saturday was my fault, in your later post. If I combine that post with 17, I can see I was proving your point and we have been close to saying the same thing...maybe. Your style is very difficult to understand sometimes.... as is mine.

Anyway, if I am correct, I WHOLE HEARTEDLY APPOLOGIZE FOR MY RANT. As you can imagine, I am very tense and worked up over this whole situation. I may lose my career and everything I have attained in my sobriety (respect from others, dream job of helping others, a career I love). Because someone decided to play the race card to hide his bad behaviors.... But in some way, given I work with addicts and that is what we when practicing our addiction do.... maybe I should have seen this coming and just dialed the phone and enabled his bad behaviors more or ignored the fact he threatened and touched me. Yet, in doing so, how is that helping the addict to recover if you are so scared of what may happen that you cannot point out bad behavior for fear of that manipulation being turned against you?

Catch 22 I guess.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

timalkin

My post was way more on target than the one containing this select quote from pan:

"GO TO FUCKING HELL I MAY LOSE MY FUCKING JOB OVER THIS BULLSHIT AND YOU WANT TO INFER THAT IT IS MY FAULT....... FUCK YOU!!!!!!"

But I'll take the congratulations anyway.

More on target, why the fuck is this even a discussion in the 21st Century? The more we take this idea seriously, the more we highlight differences and further separate American society. You can bet your ass that Jesse Jackson and his henchmen will be first in line with their hands out. They've haven't made enough money playing the race card at every opportunity yet.

__________________
Trinity: "What do you need?"

Neo: "Guns. Lots of guns."

-The Matrix

Baraka_Guru

I briefly spoke to roachboy in chat about this thread. One thing that I told him was that I was reminded of the differences between the U.S. and places like Toronto when it comes to race politics.

You see, generally, in North America, there is an undercurrent of while privilege. It's not universal, far-reaching, and omnipotent, but, generally speaking, visible minorities have a lot of crap loaded upon them, in varying degrees, based on their racial identity.

Blacks, of course, are no exception. My own perspective of the black community is Canadian and rather Toronto-centric. If you don't already know, Toronto is one of the most multicultural cities in the world. There is a large black population that consists of immigrants from around the world, including Africa, the U.S., and the Caribbean.

Canada doesn't have the specter of slavery in its past. However, this is not to say blacks have it easy here. There is a notorious neighbourhood here, Jane & Finch, which is well known for its crime, poverty, and blackness. The problem is that local lore and the media have blown it out of proportion. There are a few other neighbourhoods that are the same way. The fact remains that blacks in Toronto are disproportionately disadvantaged socially, economically, vocationally, and educationally. They are discriminated against by their community, the police, and the media. But many of them are not descendants of American-owned slaves. Many of them do have a slave ancestry, but I don't think their plight is as directly linked as it is in the States.

This is the big difference. There is no sense of ownership of the problem, because its only root is through their immigration stories. It's a big difference. It puts them in the same realm as East Indians, Chinese, etc., who have done the same thing here.

The problem I see in many of the responses in this thread is the idea that a long history (the abolition of slavery) and a single historical event (the election of a black man as president) can wash away the bitter realities of blacks across the country.

The slave ancestors of African Americans did not immigrate to America. They were hunted like animals, transported like cargo, and put to work as slaves for years. And when slavery was ended, what began were decades of hatred, discrimination, and segregation aimed at keeping blacks as second-class citizens. This was passed down from generation to generation, from American hands to American hands.

Americans, you own this burden. I am appalled to read how easily some of you pass off this responsibility as though it were made null and void by deep time and a single victory. Racism is alive and well, and if America indeed owes nothing to the descendants of slaves, this is at the very least tragedy of society and at the very worst a travesty of justice.

You cannot undo what was done by your ancestors. But you can set it right. For generations now, the families of former slaves have been passing on their burden. Isn't it up to American society at large to help share it? To help alleviate it? It's in the best interests of all Americans.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Willravel

Am... am I a Canadian?

pan6467

See post 30.

What happens when reparations have been made and they still live in poverty because the "liberal, white suburban bred kid with haughty ideals" keeps buying into and saying that, "They still haven't been given the chance.... the reparations were not enough, the white man/Asian/Hispanic that are achieving and grew up in the same areas had it easier."

What then, every black gets free college, a million dollars to open their own business.... what more do we give them then? How much further do we have to go until YOU A WHITE MAN, are satisfied the black man has been repaid enough?

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Willravel

I'm talking about scholarships and job training. I'm talking about something a lot more functional and valuable than a check. If scholarships and job training don't work, I'll quit my job and join the peace corps because America won't be worth my time anymore.
Let's start by having an increased police presence in black neighborhoods. Let's create some quality after-school programs. Let's improve the quality of schools in black neighborhoods. Let's build some nice recreational centers and parks in black neighborhoods. Let's finally discontinue racist mandatory minimums. Let's have better and bigger scholarships for black students. Let's provide job training programs for those unable to get into college.

When the playing field is level, I'll shut up. Until then, I won't.

Baraka_Guru

Pan, I think it's a matter of improving black communities through sensible action. Unless we know blacks are genetically predisposed to crime and violence, there is a reason why a greater proportion of them are committing these crimes and filling up the prison system. These are social issues.

You see the same thing here in Canada with the First Nations. You see issues of poverty, drug abuse, sexual abuse, domestic violence on reserves in Canada that are way out of whack with the rest of the country. The First Nations prison population? Way out of whack.

The government doesn't need to bless the palms of every black descended from slaves by cutting them a check. They should, however, focus on what's wrong with black communities and how to improve them. Extra education programs, vocational training, women's services, etc., etc. are all a part of the puzzle. Do black communities have access to what they need to succeed? Are they protected from the bad elements of society? Are those who slip given adequate means to rehabilitate?

EDIT: sorry for kind of parroting Willravel...I wrote this at the same time.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Manic_Skafe

The words don't pour quickly nor elegantly enough out of my skull to keep up with these posts but I'd just like to point our your conspicuous use of the emphasized term and the fact that it serves to contradict your entire argument. We who, exactly? We the people? We the government?

Maybe it's my liberal land upbringing but I can't help but to find all of this hilarious.

Sorry about your work issues.

__________________
"Porn is a zoo of exotic animals that becomes boring upon ownership." -Nersesian

Slims

Ok will,

I am all for giving people a chance.

Provided that "chance" isn't money taken out of my pocket and given to someone else for a crime they didn't suffer and I didn't commit.

If you think slavery has a continuing impact on society and is adversely affecting the ability of the black population to fully integrate and compete, then fine, help them succeed.

The problem, as I see it, is that the government should be helping ANY disadvantaged person/group succeed in life.

We will argue to the ends of the earth about what exactly should be done as I have a far more conservative viewpoint, but I don't think that we should single out anybody based on past history, race, etc. When we reward people based on perceived wrongs it produces a society of squeaky wheels all of which are trying to complain the loudest so they can get the oil. If it is justified for blacks, it will be justified for Indians, Japanese, Germans (many were put in internment camps during WW2), Irish, Chinese, Mexicans, Mormons, and just about anybody who has ever been discriminated against in any way. A Nation, as policy, has to work to ensure past wrongs are not continued, but doesn't need to commit ritual suicide in a vein attempt at fixing history...no amount of money will change what happened.


I feel 'reparations' should come in the form of a truly race-blind nation where the descendants of former slaves are able to compete as equals, without prejudice or worse....the pity implied by a handout. I could not in good conscience accept a reward, trophy, or position I did not earn. My pocket book may hurt as a result, but my dignity is priceless. By promoting affirmative action, you are telling the a community that they will be hired because of who they are, not because they competed and won. If I were a member of that community that possibility would haunt me because I would never know whether I earned my job, or if it was the product of pity.

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

Willravel

If I had a nickel every time a conservative acted like a social program to be financed directly out of their pocket, I'd be a millionaire. But I'd have to pay like 30% of it back. You know, taxes.

Anyway, nothing I listed could be considered a handout. Scholarships are an opportunity for an education, they don't just hand you a diploma. I'm all about providing the same opportunities I got. I had a safe neighborhood growing up because there was a reasonable police presence. I went to some decent schools, because at least one of the high schools I went to happened to be in an affluent area. I had access to good after-school programs to keep me out of trouble. This is simply about leveling the opportunities.

And it's not about fixing history, it's about repairing the present.

rahl

[/COLOR]
You're not responsible. We're all collectively responsible as the population of the republic. We bear the responsibility for our government. Our government promised compensation. Stop thinking like a conservative and start thinking like a citizen.[/QUOTE]

no we're not. I am responsible for me, and you are responsible for you, that's it.
This is not a socialist or communist country. It's a free country.

I don't mind helping people who need it, if I'm able. But times are tough for all of us and there is no reason any one particular race should get any sort of relief over another.

Slims

I am against reparations and I don't feel responsible for wrongs that were committed way before my time. I am trying not to get mired down in the details of responsibility, but rather focus on this issue:

I was trying to clarify the difference....because most calls I have heard for reparations have been of the "pay me some cash" variety.

I think what you suggest should be the product of a functional social system rather than reparations...we shouldn't be focusing on blacks but rather blighted areas, disadvantaged people, high crime demographics, etc. If the shoe fits for the black community at the moment, great they will get most of the resources. The focus should be on the current situation, not past wrongs, and shouldn't be about race, etc.

If the quality of the school system sucks somewhere, improve it. But don't pass over some shitty schools and focus on others simply because most of the students are black. Don't give a black kid a college grant when white kid from the same background has to work his way through school (that, in my mind is a handout). I don't think the government should offer grants or scholarships, only guaranteed loans. After all if college is a good investment, who better to make that investment than the person being educated? I paid my own way through school, and incurred a tremendous amount of debt in doing so. It rubs me wrong when other people are given advantages I was denied because they are a different race...especially when I hear them tell me they couldn't afford college. Everybody can afford college if they are willing to work hard enough and are willing to accept the responsibility of loans. If you are a credit criminal and cannot get a loan, then work upfront for it. My brother in-law is graduating this weekend after working as a sous-chef for five years full time while also attending college full time. He didn't have money, a fantastic GPA, a rich family, etc. He had a willingness to work and it will make him successful.

I think an increased police presence in high crime areas is a no-brainer, but the black community will probably disagree...they have certainly raised a stink about how many black people are arrested and extra cops won't fix that, at least not short term (though they could if they can begin to offer a significant deterrent effect).

There is very little money going to the average drug dealer, most would be better off working for a living, keeping most of their money, not going to jail, etc. That so many people choose that path against all indications that failure is virtually guaranteed is a testament to a failing culture, not a problem with racism. I feel social efforts should also focus on changing the culture where that sort of nonsense is considered acceptable.

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

Willravel

Rahl, it's time for some basic sociology. Human beings are what's called a "social species". We don't function well on our own, and we developed in groups. We learned to hunt in groups, we learned to cultivate crops in groups, we learned to train beasts of burden in groups, and civilization was born from groups. Going back to before we were even bipedal, our distant ancestors were social. Even today, we are highly social. We are interdependent, and without that interdependence our species would probably die out pretty quickly. I'm sure this all sounds pretty theoretical to you, but it's not in the least. I'll give you an example. I work with a nonprofit organization that helps poor and homeless people in San Jose. Without the service I help to provide, poverty would be a bigger problem in San Jose. Our police would have to spend more time dealing with theft and homelessness, which would take their attention from what they're doing now. San Jose might become a less safe place if it weren't for the work I do.

Now, let's expand this to the topic at hand. Think about this: could your life be improved if the market was suddenly getting more educated people that happen to be black? Could your life be improved if gang violence and drug use were to suddenly drop off? Could your life be improved if we paid less taxes because we weren't incarcerating so many black people? Could it? Be honest.
You don't know what communism or socialism are, but I'll leave that for another thread.

roachboy

pan--thanks for the post above. i appreciate it. maybe one of these days i'll start using caps here. i'm not sure that the results will be what folk might expect but at least it'll be more obvious where sentences start and stop.

we weren't really saying the same thing, but one thing i was not doing was commenting on what happened to you directly. it really was about the way you presented it.

i'm sorry you have been put through this ordeal at work.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Slims

Will, please try not to patronize people for disagreeing with you.

and the answer to your last series of questions is an unequivocal YES. However, we should be fixing that stuff because those problems are a drain on society, not because the people causing them are black.

And your posts about Reparations imply a sense of collective responsibility which I don't share with you. I simply don't feel obligated to brood on issues in the distant past. I am not pretending they never happened, but I don't feel collective guilt, hand-wringing and a token offering is anything but insulting and misguided.

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

Willravel

Were they serious? Or on the Dave Chapelle show? I've heard the cash thing plenty of times, too, but it's almost always made in jest.
That's perfectly fine with me. Could we just call it reparations for the hell of it, though?
I don't want to freak you out or anything, but the lower income black, latino, and Asian families I know are virtually united on wanting more police presence in their areas. And this is in a city that has a reputation for racial profiling.
It's not culture, though. The few drug dealers I know that aren't white guys with dreadlocks selling weed were born into a situation that is self-sustaining. Sure, it's possible to get good grades at that horrible school. It's possible to endure the beatings by not joining a gang. It's even possible to get accepted to a decent college. But it's not by any means easy.

Imagine you're 14 and living at home. Your dad is long gone and your mom works two crappy jobs just to keep you housed and clothed. She can't provide structure necessary for developing an objective understanding of your situation because she's working her ass off at work, so when you see an opportunity to make $300 in an afternoon being a spotter, you take it. Before you know it, you're dealing. And let's just be honest: there actually is a lot of money to be made in illegal narcotics, especially for people that have grown up impoverished.
He was oversimplifying and I felt like calling him on it. He's not the only person that thinks in those terms, and it has to stop.
Why can't we do it for everyone and simply call it reparations? It's an honest effort at equality for everyone, including black people. Why can't this be how reparations take shape?

Slims

It's late so I am not going to try to parse your post into separate quotes.

I do not believe in an equal society, I believe in a fair society. I use the term 'equal' loosely and that is what I mean. Every person should have a fair chance to distinguish themselves and succeed. If the government provides some basic opportunities and they fail to take advantage of what opportunities are available to them (despite any personal difficulties) then I feel no obligation to continue assisting them.

No, I don't want to call a good, sustainable social program reparations...it is what a country with no history of slavery or discrimination should be doing and it has nothing to do with past wrongs, but on the current situation. We are not repaying anybody, we are investing in a stable society.

If a community wants an increased police presence (my statement was opinion not necessarily fact) they should get it, provided they have a higher than average crime rate to justify it (I suspect they probably do).


That is the definition of culture, and dudes are not making nearly that much money. I already agreed that we should try to fix the schools and have increased police presence, but you can't make a kid not join a gang, or sell drugs...his parents and neighborhood have to condemn that behavior and until they do that lifestyle will continue to persist. You are right that it is a vicious self-perpetuating cycle, but it requires at least the passive participation of the people in the neighborhood. If people called the police on drug dealers, reported murders, told the police who the gangs were, and controlled their children it would be far easier to prevent that behavior. If the drug-dealing lifestyle were as lucrative as you suggest, the dealers would not be living in poverty as the vast majority are.


I recently started seeing GD and SUR gang signs pop up on opposite sides of my neighborhood. I have called the police and spoken with them a couple times about the new gang activity, they have increased patrols in the area and spoken with local homeowners who had graffitti on their property to have it removed. I have removed some of those tags off of public property and I will not tolerate gang activity in my neighborhood. Ultimately I feel you only deserve what you are willing to defend, and I want my neighborhood to remain gang free (or as close as I can manage). If the people living in crime ridden neighborhoods took responsibility for the state of their own neighborhood there wouldn't be any problem with violence or gang or drug activity


2'nd Edit: And I have seen plenty of families in Afghanistan making far less than the poorest person in America still managing to raise respectful, hard working children who are respectful of both the home and the community. That isn't a money issue, it is a cultural issue.

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

timalkin

Why don't all the bleeding heart types create a fund to do all of these great things? No taxes, no Senate bills, no NAACP. Start a fund, make a website, call the movement the "Great White Guilt Buyback." Collect donations from every person who suffers white guilt.

How much is your white guilt worth? It would depend on the level of guilt. People like me have none, so we don't give money. Other people have a shit load, so they give a shit load of money. People can give enough to where they can finally say that they have no more white guilt.

Distribute the money as you see fit. Don't care, not my money. White guilt gone, black people compensated for the shitty existence that white people force them to live, problem solved.

__________________
Trinity: "What do you need?"

Neo: "Guns. Lots of guns."

-The Matrix

rahl

Sorry will but I do know what communism and socialism is. Please do not assume that you are smarter than I am. I commend you for doing the work that you do. I have no problem with trying to help out people who truly need it. But anyone who wants can better their own lives by working hard for it, not by seeking handouts because they are too lazy to work for it themselves.

We don't live in a perfect world. If we did there would be no class differences. No poor people no rich people. We do however live in the real world, and in the real world there will always be these differences, there always have been. It's just nature. Even in the animal kingdom there are the strong and the week. The strong always survive.


Everyone wants to make excuses for their own failings in life and it's bullshit. If you had a tough childhood or grew up in a tough area, thats no excuse to turn to a life of crime. You have the option to leave that bad area, and make a better life for yourself.

It's time people started taking responsibility for their own lives and stop blaming their circumstances for their station in life, or their unhappyness

spectre

No offense pan, but this isn't the first time you've shown this much hostility towards African Americans in a thread, don't you think that attitude may have something to do with that perception?

__________________
"Fuck these chains
No goddamn slave
I will be different" ~ Machine Head

pan6467

What hostility towards a whole race?

Towards a group that uses the race card to punish innocent people for their own means, YES. To the Al Sharptons, Jesse Jacksons, Rev. Wrights, because they propagate hatred and this thinking so that they may have power YES.

But not towards all African Americans or blacks. The vast majority are hard working people, with dreams and ideas much the same as me.

I've said that before, but because I spoke out against this warped racist thinking, I'm the racist or the one who is all angry? That's the true insanity, people who point out the truth are the ones the Rev. Wrights/Sharptons and Jacksons go after to silence. They don't go after true racists because they need to keep the hate alive.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Willravel

Equal opportunities are all I'm talking about here.
Yes, but you have to admit that there has been an inequality for some time, an inequality that the government is at least partially responsible for. Correcting that inequality of opportunity would be a boon, and it might make up for the many years of there being inequality.
I'm not saying we can totally prevent kids from joining gangs or selling drugs, but I am saying by creating a society where everyone has the same opportunities is a step in making those options obsolete. Why would you want to sell crack if you could be an architect? Why would you want to be a pimp if you could manage your own software company? These were the options available to me in school, everyone should have them. I'm not talking about handouts, just allowing everyone to start the race on the same line.
Some do, some can't. We can't judge the people that call the police only to find it takes the cops 45 minutes to get there.
Some Afghanis are respectful, peaceful people. Some are militant extremists. Poverty doesn't affect everyone in the same way. Still, I don't know if I'm comfortable comparing Afghanistan to impoverished areas in the US. It strikes me as apples and oranges.
I didn't have to assume anything, you used the terms incorrectly. I didn't intend to come off as condescending as I did. For that I apologize. It's just that I've had the conversation about socialism and communism so many times in the past few years, I guess it was a knee-jerk response.
Poverty isn't generally a result of laziness. That's a bit of a myth. It's about several things; what situation you're born into, what school you go to... shoot a lot of it is simply chance. I work really hard for my salary, but I don't necessarily work any harder than someone working two jobs to make ends meet. I've done the minimum wage thing, and I have a healthy respect for someone working a crappy job.

When I was putting myself through college, I often had to hold down several minimum wage jobs at once. It was one of the most difficult times in my life, way more difficult than things are now making 4-5 times what I did then.
I don't think a perfect world would include no rich or poor, just maybe not so many people in poverty regardless of how hard they work. The strongest person I ever knew was my grandfather. He was career military, but for the first 30 years of his life he was dirt poor in a big way. His strength and effort had nothing to do with his income.

I'm pretty sure you're familiar with arise/train-wreck Paris Hilton. She's the worst kind of what you might call "weak". She makes more money in a year than most people make in a lifetime. Why? Chance. It's chance we should seek to compensate for. Chance likely shares a large part of the responsibility for the large amount of black and latino prisoners. Had they been born white, they'd not likely be in prison, statistically. I'm not suggesting an end to personal responsibility, but can you really hold someone responsible for something that's a matter of pure chance?
Not always. Some have the option, some don't. It's important to recognize that some people are either poor or criminals because of factors outside of their control. We can't be absolutist about it.

---------- Post added at 09:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:46 PM ----------

We do, but it's not enough. Last year I donated quite a bit to scholarship funds. I donated to the NAACP a few years back, actually. It's not enough because a lot of hard working people are unwilling or unable to take responsibility for their society. You reap the rewards of my donations to scholarships via a more stable society, but you refuse to admit it.

pan6467

The "we" is the liberal white suburban idealist who propagates these ideas for some guilt fetish they have for being born or raised in the position they were while others suffer so. And the really warped thing is if you talk to these people and delve into their pasts you'll find the only blacks (I reall hate saying African American so I'm going to stop... it's separatist in my mind) they ever really met were either ones that grew up in their area or the ones they met in college. Very, very few who believe this have had to live in the "hood" for any length of time. Hell, I doubt some ever ventured into the "hood" after dark.

I used to think that way also, then I joined the military and met guys from the true inner cities of New Orleans, Newark, New York, LA, Chicago. Very few of them ever said anything about feeling "the white men holding them down". They looked at the military as a way to get out of the gangs and go to college or find a career. My best friend in the Navy was MS2 Mike Chisholm from Newark, he happened to be a black man, one who was extremely intelligent. He taught me a lot. He told me how he could have stayed in the "hood" but knew he was better than that.

I have met a lot of successful black men and women, far more successful than I have ever been and they all took pride in where they were. None of them once said "the white man held me down" or "the white man owes me". They accepted personal responsibility for their actions and moved forward and I have seen some of them called Uncle Toms and "sellouts" and traitors to the race. But, why? Because they accepted responsibility and didn't buy into the "white man is holding you down"?

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Xerxys

Before I utterly and completely disagree with this statement, please clarify your definition, er.. perception of poverty.

Is poverty to you making minimum wage, living hand to mouth or the inability to feed ones family? Is poverty to you the state of being homeless or abject disillusioning poverty that is brought about by impoverished lands and nations like many third world countries?

Offtopic:
For the love of god ... Leave Paris Hilton alone!!!

roachboy

folk have problems with the american class system. for some, the way to deal with this is to pretend the class system isn't there; the alternative, which american conservatives trafficked in for many years, is to simultaneously pretend there are no structural features that shape the class order in order to enable a fantasy world in which one's socio-economic position is a function of one's gumption or of some other inward characteristic--it ends up as some fucked up calvinist thing where one's chosen-ness is reflected in one's socio-economic position. more money=more virtue; less=less. there are several functions to this--the self-evident one is that this viewpoint erases social factors in producing and reproducing class and along with that erases any political meaning to it. if there's no political meaning, then there are no political solutions.

i've found it ironic for a long time that this view of class had currency amongst more conservative folk at the same time as the economic ideology that was of a piece with it was exacerbating class divisions and undermining the socio-economic status of working people. it's like there was some solace to be had in impotence.

american capitalism is a brutal form of a brutal system. most of the arguments concerning the way in which race and class have intertwined in the states outlined above seem to me hopelessly naive.

1. the claim that the impact of poverty within significant segments of the african-american community can be coherently addressed with bromides about "standard of living" as if all that mattered was income level takes an absurd, narrow, pseudo-empirical aspect and confuses it with the whole. you want a better measure, look at mortality rates. look at incarceration rates. conservatives have "dealt with" the intertwining of race and class in particular as it has impacted on segments of the african-american community by radically expanding the percentage of that community that's in prison. that's a social program conservative style. conservatives have "dealt with" this relation by presiding over a shocking mortality rate amongst african-american men in particular in poorer urban areas that makes of poverty as it interacts with racism in the states as bad or worse than anyplace on earth. depends what you look at as a measure i suppose. what's clear is that more conservative folk who tend to have difficulty thinking in terms of structure use this same truncated ëmpiricism" to see only what they want to see in terms of social measures.

2. traditionally the people who have opposed addressing the consequences of class are those who benefit from the existing arrangement--and in the states the most obvious manifestation of it is spatial segregation--and the most obvious correlate of that is disparities--and often quite appalling disparities--in the quality of education--which makes of spatial segregation a direct and extremely efficient motor for the reproduction of class. have a look sometimes at the way in which school desegregation played out in the 1970s. there's a good book about the process in boston called common ground--what you had basically is a petit bourgeois contingent which opposed it vocally and on grounds that ran very close to racism--then you had the silent opposition of the middle class, which simply sent their kids of private schools. attention came down on the people from, say, charlestown and southie---but the actions of the more affluent were every bit as political. and the main battle that was lost over this question of desegregation had to do with defining the areas that were to be effected by it---in the end, what happened is that class boundaries were left entirely as they were, and kids were shuffled from one shitty school to another--while out there on white island, everything remained as it had been.

so don't talk to me about "suburban idealists"---the idea isn't even worth spitting on.

3. racism has long been a tool that has been used to shortcircuit attempts to address problems of class. different people have at different times carried shit for the dominant order in this way. now the most vocal are the conservatives who are attracted to that position on populist grounds---but the bigger politics of class condenses around questions like "property values" and "good schools" and "safe neighborhoods"---and that is the more odious kind of politics because the folk who play these games dont have to see what they're doing as political at all.

what's being talked about here really is a project to change the way class works in the united states. the way class works is often barbaric, but folk who like to feel good about america blah blah blah tend not to look real hard at this sort of problem because looking leads to thinking about history and thinking about history leads to thinking about choices and thinking about choices leads to thinking about alternatives...and then you may start thinking that something is deeply, structurally fucked up about this glorious land, and seeing that makes it a little harder to participate in the endless circle-jerk of feeling good about america blah blah blah.

and this thread so far is an interesting little mircocosm--it's hard for questions of class to get traction because theres a segment of the population that would prefer to think these aren't really questions, or that they're an entirely different type of question than they are.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

JumpinJesus

We thank you for translating his posts for us. No, not just we...America thanks you.

Please stay with us. The Peace Corps has all the young college graduates, but where will America get another willravel?

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"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

Rekna

What do you think is cheaper? Educating them when they are young and providing other social programs to make them productive members of society or paying for their life in prison.

An educated well-to-do society is better for everyone. I'll repeat myself: "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure". I feel I'm a broken record hear.

Willravel

40 hours a week on minimum wage is below the poverty level in the US for a family of two. Still, even with only one person it's difficult in most areas to live on $15,000 a year. I'd say yes, but qualify that statement based on where you are. $15,000 a year in Detroit right now isn't quite as bad as it is in Manhattan.
If you can't afford food, that's an emergency. I'd absolutely say that's poverty.
Yes.

Manic_Skafe

However in the know you may be, your relationships do nothing to legitimize your argument nor do they counteract the fact that it takes a strangely selective perception of the past to proliferate that "white guilt" nonsense.

I've alluded to it in my previous posts and it's been said by those who have more patience than myself but I'll put it out there again - if you think that all the poor need is to get off their asses and stop feeling sorry for themselves then you simply don't have the slightest clue as to what you're talking about.

You and I can both agree that reparations in the form of cash are a bad idea but that nonsense about success only being one good idea away isn't even true for the middle class, let alone the poor.

...

__________________
"Porn is a zoo of exotic animals that becomes boring upon ownership." -Nersesian

powerclown

Is there anyone prepared to make the argument that blacks in America today would be better off if they were in Africa?

If blacks wouldn't be better off, then why the reparations?

Willravel

Bingo.

The odd thing is that a lot of people that perpetuate this myth are, themselves, poor. Poor conservatives and libertarians seem to grab onto this idea that people are poor on purpose and refuse to let go even forsaking the evident truth in their own lives.

Sometimes you can work hard, make all the "right" choices, and still fail. Had it not been for two scholarships, I wouldn't have been able to afford the tuition for the college I went to. I would have had to settle with San Jose State instead, and I never would have met the professor that set me up with a job out of school. I'd have graduated, but would probably be working some medial job for a relatively (for San Jose) low income. I'd not have been able to buy my home. I'd probably not be poor, but I'd not be as comfortable as I am now. And all because of two scholarships that I could have just as easily not gotten.

BTW, I don't feel white guilt. I'd feel the same way about inequality if I were Asian or Indian or Latino or Eskimo. Or black.

---------- Post added at 11:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:52 AM ----------

How about this: what would Africa look like today if it weren't torn apart by the imperial West? Do you think it'd be overrun with AIDS, civil war, and famine if it weren't exploited for generations by the US, UK, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Germany, etc? Of course not.

dksuddeth

um, no. don't even go there with that generalization.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Seaver

Ok, pay reparations to the Acadians. Wait... that was before your time so it's ok then?

__________________
"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

Zenturian

You can pay reparations if you like, Willtravel, but I won't. I didn't enslave anyone. And blacks today have benifited as much as I did from slavery. They live in a great nation with a high standard of living. They have freedoms that no African nation enjoys. If they can not make it here, then its no one's fault but their own.

Willravel

That's a common strawman. No one is suggesting that you owned slaves. You don't. I believe you. You're a citizen of our republic and our republic promised to pay. You're responsible. I'm responsible. If you don't want to be responsible for the promises our government makes, you have to stop being a citizen. While you're free to do that, I don't recommend it.
This is incorrect. If they can't "make it" here, it might be their fault or it might not be. Like Manic said,

Zenturian

You are hopless. Blacks live in the nation with the highest standard of living, and best quality of life. THEY are benifiting from black slavery. Should they pay reparations to themselves? And they can make it here. Its racists like you that have low expectations. How pathetic do you think blacks are that they can not succeed unless nice white folk like you give them a leg up?

Rekna

God there is so much ignorance in this thread. This is not about you owning slaves or anyone being a slave. It doesn't matter what Africa is like now or what it might have been without the exploitation. This is about the social welfare of this country. Minorities aren't having problems because they are all lazy they are having problems because the deck is stacked against them. As a society we really have 2 options, we let the deck continue to be stacked against them forever and let a viscous cycle continue from which they will likely never escape, or we do what we can to end the cycle and eliminate the disparities that exist.

I have no problem with my tax dollars going twoard social welfare that is designed to end this cycle. I understand that we have both a moral and a financial interest in these social programs. The cost of educating a minority is much less than the cost of putting them on trail and in prison. Productive members of society are much more useful to this country than unproductive.

Or you guys so short sited that you can't see the true cost of having large disparities between these cultures? If you think these disparities are good I suggest you move to a third world country and see what life would be like.

Should we hand out money? No way, but we should give money to causes that attempt to end this cycle. Improve schools and improve social programs aimed at educating and rehabilitating inner city youth. We have a chance to change the world for generations to come but some of you are so selfish that you only care about yourselves.

Willravel

On the contrary, I'm quite hopeful. In my lifetime, the cold war effectively ended, computers went from being as big as a house to inside of my phone and now can connect everyone on the planet, we were able to lift millions of people out of poverty, and Chuck Norris kicked countless hooligans. It just goes to show you that humanity is capable of incredible good, but progress requires vigilance. I'm simply being vigilant.
The United States of America boasts neither of these, actually. The standard of living is higher in Norway, Australia, Canada, Ireland, Sweden, Switzerland, Japan, France, and several more countries. Quality of life isn't quantifiable, but have you ever been to Norway? It's seriously like traveling to the future.
This argument effectively died after the Great Depression. That reset the clock on US economic power. We are currently enjoying our high standard of living because of massive borrowing.
Technically, they would via taxes, but because the tax burden would be widespread, they'd be getting more than they paid for.
Ask a black person if I'm racist.
The poor are victimized by society, Zenturian. Many black people are poor, therefore many black people are victimized by society. It's not a matter of weakness, it's a matter of circumstance. Because the poor in our country are disproportionately black, many members of each generation are born into poverty. Were you born into poverty, Zenturian? I was born into a lower class family, but I don't think I was ever impoverished except perhaps briefly during college. Have you ever been impoverished? Do you understand the state of poverty? Or do you stand from the outside, judging them without anything to formulate said judgment on? From my direct experience, it's not a matter of pathetic or estimable, it's often a matter of numerous circumstances combined with personal ability and motivation. Should great capability and unmatched motivation meet with the wrong circumstances, one can still fail. This is often the case when dealing with people that are poor.

Let's put your view under the microscope you used incorrectly on mine. You're almost certainly aware that more black people are poor, lack college educations, and are imprisoned. By your black and white understanding of society, though, there's nothing standing in their way, right? They live in the land of equal opportunity! So how do you account for the statistics about income, imprisonment, and education? Why,
... uh huh. Take that to it's logical conclusion. It's black people's fault that they're poor. It's black people's fault that they're born into a system in which they're hundreds of times more likely to be imprisoned than a white person. It's black people's fault that they can't get into college.

And I'm the racist? Open your eyes, Zenturian. Open your eyes and see. Its marvelous what you can see when you open your eyes. Come, marvel with me.

pan6467

Ok so no one answered my question as to when enough is enough. Let's say we give reparations and we still have blacks in poverty, then what? Do we give more and more?

What about the whites living in poverty? Are they shit out of luck simply because they were "lucky" to be born white and thus have so much more going for them????

What about the personal responsibility issues I have listed above and yet they have been ignored?

I am not one who believes the Ultra rich has helped many. The top 5% are getting richer the rest of us are trying to fight for just a piece and some want to give more to others simply based on race and past problems. This makes no sense to me.

You are saying the black man deserves and should get what ever he needs to get out of poverty, yet the whites living in poverty deserve shit? Makes no sense it sounds like racism. But what do I know I'm a racist according to many here.

Why not just open scholarships and grants for ALL people under a certain income bracket? Why not help ALL people under a certain income bracket? OOOO because some were born black and some were born white and the white guys have it easier????? That is such fucking bullshit.

People are losing their jobs, houses, savings, everything and you want to give the blacks reparations?

What about the Native Americans? We were far, far harsher to them and promised them things while we exterminated as many as possible, Yet where is the cry to give them reparations?

We put not only Japanese but most Asian descendants into internment camps during WW2 simply because of their ethnicity, our government took their lands and all property..... where are the cries for reparations for them?

And why don't we go to Africa and demand that the winning tribes who SOLD their captives from losing tribes to the white man and demand reparations from them? After all, they sold their own people to us. OOOO but that would be racist and wrong.

There is so much fucking hypocrisy and "feel good" but fuck over others based on color of skin that I can't truly fathom why anyone buys into this racist division bullshit.

Ahhhhh division. Keep the people hating each other and it allows those who continue to propagate the hate to gain power, wealth and control over others.

Cool, let's just give Sharpton/Wright/Farrakhan and so on our paychecks and they can dish out what they believe we deserve and what they decide to keep they can.... and they can say it's to payback all these years of racism. Then we can watch blacks, whites, asians, and all who are losing their jobs and working for minimum wages and living paycheck to paycheck be told not to squander their money.... live frugally..... meanwhile we'll just keep taking out reparations until no black man lives in poverty.... fuck the whites/asians/hispanics and the native american they deserve to live in poverty, they don't understand the black man's plight. We're not being racist. we're not dividing the country more.... we're just giving money and scholarships and chances that will not be available to others based SOLELY ON SKIN COLOR.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Rekna

What I am saying applies to all poor people, white, black, hispanic, native american, etc. Improve the programs in these impoverished areas and we will easily get a return on our money in the future.