PUB DISCUSSION Reparations - Page 3 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Willravel · 05-08-2009, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

Ok so no one answered my question as to when enough is enough. Let's say we give reparations and we still have blacks in poverty, then what? Do we give more and more?

"Enough is enough" when we give them the same opportunities as their white counterparts. That's when it's enough and not a moment sooner. And there will be a transition period. Even if all the right changes were made today, we wouldn't see even prison populations, even education, etc. for many, many years. That's the price we pay for waiting so damned long.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

What about the whites living in poverty? Are they shit out of luck simply because they were "lucky" to be born white and thus have so much more going for them?

All of the changes I listed would help impoverished people regardless of skin color. After-school programs in lower income areas wouldn't just help black kids, they'd help any child that might otherwise be in danger of falling into a gang or drug use. The reason I call it reparations is that its implementation will help black people more because proportionally more black people are lower class. In truth, it would help Latinos, Asians, whites, blacks, and any other people that are impoverished. It'll just happen to help Latinos and blacks more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

What about the personal responsibility issues I have listed above and yet they have been ignored?

What about the multitude of responses? They're right above.

flstf · 05-08-2009, 09:26 AM

Punishing this generation for the actions of past generations makes about as much sense as punishing a son for the crimes of his father. If any reparations are owed they should have been paid by those who committed the unjust acts and not their descendants or others just because they are members of the same race.

Improving programs for the impoverished should be encouraged regardless of how they got there. To my way of thinking this is much different than trying to justify paying reparations directly to the descendants of an abused race by the descendants of other races who had nothing to do with it.

Zenturian · 05-08-2009, 11:56 AM

Willtravel is hopless. He has the racist problem of low expectations. Again, he thinks blacks can not help themselves unless enlightened whites like himself give them the boost they need. There is no debate in this topic, he won't hear any viewpoint other than that. And he clearly thinks he is helping. That is the ironic thing. Like Fredrick Douglas said, " Let the black man rise or fall on their own." Clearly wiltravel must think that Douglass is part of the problem...

Willravel · 05-08-2009, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturian

He has the racist problem of low expectations.

Stop calling me a racist. I know you're new here, so I was wiling to grant you latitude, but unless you can demonstrate racism to the objective reader, you're just name calling. TFP isn't a place for name calling.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturian

Again, he thinks blacks can not help themselves unless enlightened whites like himself give them the boost they need.

You're not reading my posts. I think that the poor live in circumstances that make success more difficult. I suggest allowing everyone to have the same circumstances, the same opportunity for success. You clearly have missed this and are assuming that I'm making a different argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturian

There is no debate in this topic, he won't hear any viewpoint other than that.

Read my posts, I'm reading, comprehending, considering and responding.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturian

Like Fredrick Douglas said, " Let the black man rise or fall on their own." Clearly wiltravel must think that Douglass is part of the problem...

That quote sounds nice on paper, but it is an oversimplification. All great quotes like this are oversimplifications. Black people aren't statistically more impoverished in a vacuum, there are real and numerous factors involved, and those factors must be addressed by all people, not just black people, because the ultimate consequences of those factors reach all people regardless of skin color.

Douglas, in that quote, was trying to inspire black people of that time to take responsibility for themselves, but that alone didn't cause the Emancipation Proclamation, did it? No, it was the combined efforts of many abolitionists, white and black, and a complex socio-political atmosphere as well as a civil war. These things take considerable effort, and those working for change need all the help they can get. I refuse to stop fighting because you think I'm somehow enabling weakness. I feel that I'm supporting the overall strength of the movement for social equality.

Edit: it's Willravel, as in Will (me) and Ravel.

Zenturian · 05-08-2009, 01:17 PM

What about poor whites then? Should they get reparations? There are vastly more poor whites. Did racisim and the system make them poor?

---------- Post added at 05:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:11 PM ----------

And I am calling your racist because you are. You are not a bad person, but you honestly think that Blacks can not make it in America without help. That implies they are inferior. Asians can make it. Hispanics, but not blacks. Ergo, you are racist. That is my whole point of reparations. They are a racist notion that a certain group of people can not succeed in a nation that has fucked over everyone. Look at the history of the Irish in America. More than half the population of Ireland came to the New World as slaves, yet you would be laughed at for suggesting that I should get reparations. And if I were to claim that I can not get a break due to my ancestor's enslavement, no one would take me seriously. The Irish suffered from slavery the same as, or more than any other ethnic minority, yet for some reason Irish can do fine without handouts. but do gooders like you think that for some reason, blacks are incapable of fending for themselves unless white people do it for them. Hence, you are racist. No offence as I am sure you are a nice guy, but you thinking so poorly of blacks is racist.

Willravel · 05-08-2009, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturian

What about poor whites then? Should they get reparations?

I'm begging you, read my posts. Do you know what form reparations would come in if I were in charge? Better schools in poor neighborhoods. More after-school programs. More recreational centers in poor neighborhoods. More scholarships. More job training. Get rid of mandatory minimums.

These things would help all the poor. Why call it reparations? Because black people are disproportionately poor and imprisoned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturian

There are vastly more poor whites.

By amount? Yes, absolutely, but it's fuzzy math simply comparing numbers. There are a lot more white people in the US than there are black people, so saying there are more white people doesn't actually speak to the problem. Proportionally, black people are more poor than white people.

Zenturian · 05-08-2009, 01:26 PM

And proportionatly blacks commit more murders, rapes and violent crimes. That may be the reason more blacks are in jails.... But don't let logic get in the way of a good debate.

No one is against good schools, except maybe the democrats. Look at how well they run the school systems. i am with you on this one. Toss out the unions and let schools compete for money and watch quality improve. Who suffers when Unions ( ei, democrats and liberals) the poor.

And if everyone gets better schools, then why do you insist on calling it reparations? Why not make a thread called "Improve Public Education?" Methinks you are just itching for a fight.

Willravel · 05-08-2009, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturian

And proportionatly blacks commit more murders, rapes and violent crimes. That may be the reason more blacks are in jails.... But don't let logic get in the way of a good debate.

Actually, proportionately, POOR people commit more murders, rapes and violent crimes. The fact that there are more black people in that group is why you see more black people committing more murders, rapes and violent crimes. You see how it all make sense?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturian

And if everyone gets better schools, then why do you insist on calling it reparations?

Because helping the poor would disproportionately help black people more. Like I said above. Twice.

Zenturian · 05-08-2009, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

Actually, proportionately, POOR people commit more murders, rapes and violent crimes. The fact that there are more black people in that group is why you see more black people committing more murders, rapes and violent crimes. You see how it all make sense?

Because helping the poor would disproportionately help black people more. Like I said above. Twice.

No, even poor whites commit less crimes than poor blacks. So you are wrong on that account.

And helping the poor would help more white people, since there are more poor whites than any other race in America so calling it reparations is just asking for charged debate to spice up a boring argument that no one would be against.

---------- Post added at 05:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:34 PM ----------

And again, if slavery is to blame, why don't the Irish suffer the same affects, since proportionatly, they suffered more than blacks from it?

Willravel · 05-08-2009, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturian

No, even poor whites commit less crimes than poor blacks. So you are wrong on that account.

Actually, white people commit more assuming we are talking about people making $13,000 or less a year. Where are you getting your statistics? The difference is that whites are statistically less likely to get prison time. Would you like to compare citations? I'm ready.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturian

And helping the poor would help more white people, since there are more poor whites than any other race in America so calling it reparations is just asking for charged debate to spice up a boring argument that no one would be against.

Not at all. It's about providing a level playing field. If suddenly more poor black people have the same opportunities that people like me got, you're going to see just how beneficial it can be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturian

And again, if slavery is to blame, why don't the Irish suffer the same affects, since proportionatly, they suffered more than blacks from it?

Slavery isn't to blame anymore, racism is.

pan6467 · 05-08-2009, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

What I am saying applies to all poor people, white, black, hispanic, native american, etc. Improve the programs in these impoverished areas and we will easily get a return on our money in the future.

Then say that, don't say "reparations"........

[/COLOR]Compare this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

"Enough is enough" when we give them the same opportunities as their white counterparts. That's when it's enough and not a moment sooner. And there will be a transition period. Even if all the right changes were made today, we wouldn't see even prison populations, even education, etc. for many, many years. That's the price we pay for waiting so damned long.

To this:

Quote:

All of the changes I listed would help impoverished people regardless of skin color. After-school programs in lower income areas wouldn't just help black kids, they'd help any child that might otherwise be in danger of falling into a gang or drug use. The reason I call it reparations is that its implementation will help black people more because proportionally more black people are lower class. In truth, it would help Latinos, Asians, whites, blacks, and any other people that are impoverished. It'll just happen to help Latinos and blacks more.

First it's ""Enough is enough" when we give them the same opportunities as their white counterparts." "That's the price we pay for waiting so damned long."

So it's reparations to help only the poor blacks because whites (no mention of any other ethnicity, race or culture)...... but you change your tune in the very next reply to my posts, to it helping "all poor people."

So if we say that then it's not truly "Reparations" it's ..... um....... welfare, the war on poverty, social programs to help the inner city..... Which we have tried and failed at because it doesn't reward hard work and personal responsibility and has led us where we are now. People say "ok, let's help" Then the abuse is shown and it's "we tried screw them trickle down yes." And finally social, moral, spiritual, financial decay and bankruptcy of the nation.

So, is it true "reparations" you are wanting..... which would mean programs and monies ONLY to Blacks OR are you wanting social reform and programs?

You are fighting for one or the other you cannot call one the other because they are not the same thing. Because by it's very nature and meaning to those demanding "reparations" it is solely for the blacks and no one else.

Willravel · 05-08-2009, 10:20 PM

I never changed any tune. Black people are disproportionately poor, therefore a move to help all poor people would disproportionately help black people more. Black people are poor because of inequality in society the roots of which can be traced all the way back to slavery.

So, to put it into one sentence: I want social reform specifically dealing with impoverished and high crime areas, which happen to include a disproportionate amount of black people due to race-based societal problems dating back generations, the consequence of which will eventually be a more equal opportunity for success regardless of race, gender, or creed.

dippin · 05-09-2009, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturian

And proportionatly blacks commit more murders, rapes and violent crimes. That may be the reason more blacks are in jails.... But don't let logic get in the way of a good debate.

No one is against good schools, except maybe the democrats. Look at how well they run the school systems. i am with you on this one. Toss out the unions and let schools compete for money and watch quality improve. Who suffers when Unions ( ei, democrats and liberals) the poor.

And if everyone gets better schools, then why do you insist on calling it reparations? Why not make a thread called "Improve Public Education?" Methinks you are just itching for a fight.

It is astounding how you pass off what you think or expect as "fact" without bothering to look it up.

Explain this to me:
According to the CDC, the proportion of blacks who use illicit drugs is very slightly higher than the proportion of whites. We are talking about 8.1% of whites to 9.7% of blacks. And yet blacks are 4 times more likely to be given jail time for possession and make up 44% of all people arrested for possession of illegal drugs. Drug possession is responsible for about 1/5 of all who are currently in jail.

As far as the whole "unions and education" argument, that is so far removed from any reality as to be ridiculous. Not surprisingly, people who push this perspective are generally basing their findings on hearsay or anecdotal evidence, and not looking at the data (and the few that are do no control for confounding factors).
http://epicpolicy.org/files/Chapter10-Carini-Final.pdf

pan6467 · 05-09-2009, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

I never changed any tune. Black people are disproportionately poor, therefore a move to help all poor people would disproportionately help black people more. Black people are poor because of inequality in society the roots of which can be traced all the way back to slavery.

So, to put it into one sentence: I want social reform specifically dealing with impoverished and high crime areas, which happen to include a disproportionate amount of black people due to race-based societal problems dating back generations, the consequence of which will eventually be a more equal opportunity for success regardless of race, gender, or creed.

But Will, in all honesty, that is far different than wanting the "reparations" Farrakhan/Sharpton/Wright et al say they deserve.

Social programs with fiscal responsibility are great. My job (if I have one), my profession needs social program funding. So I will not argue there.

Willravel · 05-09-2009, 07:34 AM

Reparations mean different things to different people. Anyone saying we should start issuing checks either isn't being serious or probably doesn't understand the consequences of such an action. As far as I'm concerned, it's simply a matter of doing what we can to ensure that the cycles of racial problems are finally purged from our society, and the government can play a role in that purge by ensuring that there are responsible and proven social programs available.

Rekna · 05-09-2009, 07:58 AM

Aye no one in this thread has claimed that we should just write some checks. The "reparations" that Will and I have discussed have been about forward thinking social programs aimed at improving the future.

Writing checks will do nothing to fix the problems we are seeing and in many ways may make them worse.

roachboy · 05-09-2009, 08:46 AM

it is strange---conservatives like to talk about meritocracy and in the process pretend to themselves that such a (one-dimensional) social arrangment is possible without anything being done to alter the class system. when people in the public sphere (you know) have the audacity to actually reference the inequities of that class system, conservatives set them up as objects of the usual Grouphate.

so it appears that conservatives oppose the class order at the level of fantasy, but in fact they kinda like it--if this were not the case, they'd abandon this fantasy of equality and turn their attention to the actually existing class order, how it operates how it reproduces itself, it's effects--and would advocate a politics that would go after that order, change it, and change it radically.

it's like there's some political circuit that one assimilates as one drifts into being conservative and that circuit determines associations and those associations determine outcomes. so even folk whose underlying sentiments might be quite close to one another's end up not being able to communicate really because the interior of arguments--and so of viewpoints---differ enough that even when we might try to talk about the same thing, we can't quite manage it.

the problem then is the way shifts happen from a sense of something being wrong or fucked up or whatever into the set of arguments and associations that let us articulate that sense and come away from the process with the sense that we'd said something. the only way to have a discussion across divergent arguments/associations is at a remove from them--ok what is the problem here; how to describe it so that we know we have at least some hope of referring to the same thing; what kinds of argument best fit with this image of the world that is produced through description; how do we evaluate this sense of fit?

i can see some common ground at the level of sentiment with quite a few of the folk above whose arguments run counter to mine---not all of them---but quite a few.
but we can't ever seem to get anywhere in terms of doing more than simply rehearsing the grids we start with.
maybe it's a messageboard thing---i dunno.

Zenturian · 05-09-2009, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

Actually, white people commit more assuming we are talking about people making $13,000 or less a year. Where are you getting your statistics? The difference is that whites are statistically less likely to get prison time. Would you like to compare citations? I'm ready.

Not at all. It's about providing a level playing field. If suddenly more poor black people have the same opportunities that people like me got, you're going to see just how beneficial it can be.

Slavery isn't to blame anymore, racism is.

About 70% of black children these days come from single family homes. Absentee fathers cause the poverty, not racisim. How is this to be blamed on slavery?

Willravel · 05-09-2009, 05:22 PM

Comon, you can do better than that. Do I even have to ask? Why do you think there's a higher rate of single parenthood among black people? It's the income! There's a higher rate of divorce among people of low income, and black people are disproportionately represented in the low income bracket. Social inequality becomes financial inequality becomes further social inequality. This isn't doctorate level sociology here.

timalkin · 05-09-2009, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

Comon, you can do better than that. Do I even have to ask? Why do you think there's a higher rate of single parenthood among black people? It's the income! There's a higher rate of divorce among people of low income, and black people are disproportionately represented in the low income bracket. Social inequality becomes financial inequality becomes further social inequality. This isn't doctorate level sociology here.

Wrong. Black culture doesn't place much value on marriage. That's why there is a higher rate of single parenthood. The biggest problem facing black people is their culture. Unfortunately, no amount of white help will fix a broken culture. They have to do it themselves.

JumpinJesus · 05-09-2009, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturian

About 70% of black children these days come from single family homes. Absentee fathers cause the poverty, not racisim. How is this to be blamed on slavery?

One of the most enduring effects of slavery is the fracturing of the black families. This was a deliberate action performed to prevent any bonds or relationships forming that could pose a threat to the sole authority of the slave master. The presence of an authority figure in the role of a father could undermine the authority of a slave master in the eyes of children. To combat this, families were consistently broken up and scattered, often with every member of a family sent in different directions. The hope was there would never be strong enough bonds developed that could challenge the master.

I'd go into all the citations, but this is a pub discussion where that sort of google-mastery is frowned upon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

Actually, white people commit more assuming we are talking about people making $13,000 or less a year. Where are you getting your statistics? The difference is that whites are statistically less likely to get prison time. Would you like to compare citations? I'm ready.

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

I know you're new here, so I was wiling to grant you latitude, but unless you can demonstrate racism to the objective reader, you're just name calling. TFP isn't a place for name calling.

It's this very type of snobbery that makes politics so ugly to so many members. Stop being so sanctimonious to so many people. This is a pub discussion. You started it, in fact. It's this very type of behavior that drives people away in droves. You know the letter of the rules of tfp. You also know the spirit of them. Stop flaunting them at new members as if attempting to establish some sort of dominance here. It's making tfp look like a bunch of elitist pricks.

Zenturian · 05-09-2009, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timalkin

Wrong. Black culture doesn't place much value on marriage. That's why there is a higher rate of single parenthood. The biggest problem facing black people is their culture. Unfortunately, no amount of white help will fix a broken culture. They have to do it themselves.

You said it better than I did. Thank you.

---------- Post added at 11:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:49 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by JumpinJesus

One of the most enduring effects of slavery is the fracturing of the black families. This was a deliberate action performed to prevent any bonds or relationships forming that could pose a threat to the sole authority of the slave master. The presence of an authority figure in the role of a father could undermine the authority of a slave master in the eyes of children. To combat this, families were consistently broken up and scattered, often with every member of a family sent in different directions. The hope was there would never be strong enough bonds developed that could challenge the master.

I'd go into all the citations, but this is a pub discussion where that sort of google-mastery is frowned upon.

It's this very type of snobbery that makes politics so ugly to so many members. Stop being so sanctimonious to so many people. This is a pub discussion. You started it, in fact. It's this very type of behavior that drives people away in droves. You know the letter of the rules of tfp. You also know the spirit of them. Stop flaunting them at new members as if attempting to establish some sort of dominance here. It's making tfp look like a bunch of elitist pricks.

Wrong. Why was the marriage rate much higher for blacks in the forties, fifties and sixties? How could slavery acount for that?

Willravel · 05-09-2009, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JumpinJesus

It's this very type of snobbery that makes politics so ugly to so many members.

Are you really going to keep jumping into threads to talk about what's supposedly driving people away from the forum? Don't you think that in and of itself might be something that would drive people away? This discussion is about reparations. He called me racist, I told him to back it up. That's discussion, that's debate. A reparations thread isn't going to be an emotionless, unexciting place, it's going to have radically different opinions clashing, as it should be. Please, everyone, stop with the public pity parties about the amount of posts and posters. It's not helping anything.

Anyway...

Quote:

Originally Posted by timalkin

Wrong. Black culture doesn't place much value on marriage. That's why there is a higher rate of single parenthood. The biggest problem facing black people is their culture. Unfortunately, no amount of white help will fix a broken culture. They have to do it themselves.

Can you elaborate about how you came to this conclusion about the entire black race not putting value on marriage? And before you type, ask yourself if this would be something you'd be willing to say to the face of one of your black friends or coworkers.

I'll be the first to admit that income isn't going to be the only factor in divorce, but it's a major contributing factor, probably the largest overall. Other contributing factors are religion, age, location, and children. And yes, culture. Still, saying that black culture doesn't place much value on marriage is waaaay out there.

Zenturian · 05-09-2009, 08:19 PM

Well when 70 % if back kids are born into single parent families, well I guess that the math shows how black culture feels about marriage.

Willravel · 05-09-2009, 08:33 PM

Yeah, but you're assuming that it's culture that is the cause. What makes you think it's culture that causes this?

Seaver · 05-09-2009, 08:42 PM

Quote:

One of the most enduring effects of slavery is the fracturing of the black families. This was a deliberate action performed to prevent any bonds or relationships forming that could pose a threat to the sole authority of the slave master. The presence of an authority figure in the role of a father could undermine the authority of a slave master in the eyes of children. To combat this, families were consistently broken up and scattered, often with every member of a family sent in different directions. The hope was there would never be strong enough bonds developed that could challenge the master.

I'd go into all the citations, but this is a pub discussion where that sort of google-mastery is frowned upon.

I've stayed out of the root-of-the-problem discussion thus far, but I have to point out the incorrect nature of this.

Look up the Harlem Renaissance. Look up the development of black culture throughout the first half of the 20th Century and you will see strong households with strong parental influences. Black schools which looked inward to help develop new talent leading to such greats as George Washington Carver and Dr. Williams. Black doctors who specialized in medication in the ghettos, black teachers inspiring their own to overcome and persevere.

Somewhere along the line the family structure broke down. It was not due to slavery, and the oppression during the equality movements only seemed to strengthen it. Somewhere it broke down, and to be honest I can't figure out what.

Willravel · 05-09-2009, 09:08 PM

Ah, Sever, it's fun when we occasionally agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver

Somewhere along the line the family structure broke down. It was not due to slavery, and the oppression during the equality movements only seemed to strengthen it. Somewhere it broke down, and to be honest I can't figure out what.

This question would make a hell of a thread.

Zenturian · 05-09-2009, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

Yeah, but you're assuming that it's culture that is the cause. What makes you think it's culture that causes this?

So what caused the marriage rate among blacks to drastically decline since the 60s?

---------- Post added at 02:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:50 AM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

Ah, Sever, it's fun when we occasionally agree.

This question would make a hell of a thread.

It sure would as Willravel would be hard pressed to blame slavery for this. I mean, nothing bad can be attributed to blacks. It has to be white people's fault somehow.

pan6467 · 05-09-2009, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

I never changed any tune. Black people are disproportionately poor, therefore a move to help all poor people would disproportionately help black people more. Black people are poor because of inequality in society the roots of which can be traced all the way back to slavery.

So, to put it into one sentence: I want social reform specifically dealing with impoverished and high crime areas, which happen to include a disproportionate amount of black people due to race-based societal problems dating back generations, the consequence of which will eventually be a more equal opportunity for success regardless of race, gender, or creed.

AHHHHH, but you did change your tune Will. Up until this point it has ONLY been about giving to the Blacks and noone else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

The African slave trade is one of the worst sins our country ever committed. It was a human rights violation of catastrophic scale. There's no statute of limitations on that kind of atrocity, regardless of how logistically difficult it might be to attempt reparations.

We could very easily provide way, way, way more scholarships for students that descended from slaves. We could very easily provide free job training for descendants of slaves. We could very easily not charge income taxes for descendants of slaves.

This was not geared for ALL people in poverty it was geared solely for "Descendents of SLAVES" which would mean ONLY blacks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

Without a doubt in my mind, absolutely. Germany committed what has to be one of the worst crimes in the history of our entire species. It's likely one of the worst things in the history of our planet. Germany is responsible for Germany's actions. I'm glad we had the Nuremberg trials, they were a step in the right direction, but ask a holocaust survivor if seeing a few officers convicted was restitution enough.

Probably. I'm not as familiar with this as I am with WWII or black slavery in America.

Jews aren't a race. I suppose if you could track down the descendants of the Semitics and Hurrians, there might be a case, but those people haven't existed in thousands of years

It wasn't just the Spanish.

You are a part of a republic, as a citizen you take responsibility for your government. Your government didn't make reparations when it promised. Do you really think there should be a statute of limitations on slavery? Can you really defend that position besides with "oh, but I don't own slaves"?

The bailout has nothing to do with reparations. Also, get off Obama. They have nothing to do with this, they're just red herrings. This is an ethical question.

Barack Obama isn't descended from slaves. So, again, he has nothing to do with this.

Because this country screwed over an entire race for centuries and it didn't stop with the abolition of slavery. It's still fucking going on now.

That assumes everything else is fair. Since it's not, you can't force it by pretending an unlevel playing field is level.

You don't understand what it's like to be black in America and neither do I. That episode of South Park is right. We'll never get what it's like at all. What I do know is that as white people we don't have the right to say it's over.

You don't see anyone but black people complain, therefore only black people complain?

Also, not to nitpick, but oriental is not the preferred nomenclature.

All this has nothing to do with "social programs for ALL poor, just BLACKS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

Sherman's Special Field Orders offered each freed family 40 acres and a mule, not the white southerners. I'm not aware of widespread white slavery in the pre-Civil war US, therefore, the orders really only talk about the slaves we all picture. It's these orders people cite when commonly discussing reparations. Still, this is less about committed obligation and more about justice. The social inequality reparations were supposed to help fix still exist, albeit in a different incarnation.

Again, only BLACKS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

Pan, it's not the fault of black people that blacks are disproportionately poor. And it's not the fault of non-blacks saying that it's not their fault. It's the continuing existence of inequality dating back to the beginning of our nation.

No. No "buts". Some people have worked very hard to level the playing field. And we've made some astounding progress. We're simply not done yet. It's going to take a continuing, tenacious effort to finally push things to equality from inequality. Don't stop now, we're getting closer.

Like Manic said before, this isn't about something that ended. It's about something that continued on long after black people were freed. It's something still going on today.

That's fucking bullshit and you know it. This thread isn't about the tiny, tiny amount of people that are victimized by people abusing white guilt, it's about reparations. Stop being a drama queen. This thread isn't about you being victimized. You're white.

Slavery happened. It was a crime against humanity. For that crime, the government promised to make restitution. The government bitched out. Racism, which you can link directly to slavery, is still going on. It's not too late to make amends, which were promised.

You're not responsible. We're all collectively responsible as the population of the republic. We bear the responsibility for our government. Our government promised compensation. Stop thinking like a conservative and start thinking like a citizen.

Again, only BLACKS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

Rahl, it's time for some basic sociology. Human beings are what's called a "social species". We don't function well on our own, and we developed in groups. We learned to hunt in groups, we learned to cultivate crops in groups, we learned to train beasts of burden in groups, and civilization was born from groups. Going back to before we were even bipedal, our distant ancestors were social. Even today, we are highly social. We are interdependent, and without that interdependence our species would probably die out pretty quickly. I'm sure this all sounds pretty theoretical to you, but it's not in the least. I'll give you an example. I work with a nonprofit organization that helps poor and homeless people in San Jose. Without the service I help to provide, poverty would be a bigger problem in San Jose. Our police would have to spend more time dealing with theft and homelessness, which would take their attention from what they're doing now. San Jose might become a less safe place if it weren't for the work I do.

Now, let's expand this to the topic at hand. Think about this: could your life be improved if the market was suddenly getting more educated people that happen to be black? Could your life be improved if gang violence and drug use were to suddenly drop off? Could your life be improved if we paid less taxes because we weren't incarcerating so many black people? Could it? Be honest.

You don't know what communism or socialism are, but I'll leave that for another thread.

Again, only BLACKS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

Equal opportunities are all I'm talking about here.

Yes, but you have to admit that there has been an inequality for some time, an inequality that the government is at least partially responsible for. Correcting that inequality of opportunity would be a boon, and it might make up for the many years of there being inequality.

I'm not saying we can totally prevent kids from joining gangs or selling drugs, but I am saying by creating a society where everyone has the same opportunities is a step in making those options obsolete. Why would you want to sell crack if you could be an architect? Why would you want to be a pimp if you could manage your own software company? These were the options available to me in school, everyone should have them. I'm not talking about handouts, just allowing everyone to start the race on the same line.

Some do, some can't. We can't judge the people that call the police only to find it takes the cops 45 minutes to get there.

Some Afghanis are respectful, peaceful people. Some are militant extremists. Poverty doesn't affect everyone in the same way. Still, I don't know if I'm comfortable comparing Afghanistan to impoverished areas in the US. It strikes me as apples and oranges.

I didn't have to assume anything, you used the terms incorrectly. I didn't intend to come off as condescending as I did. For that I apologize. It's just that I've had the conversation about socialism and communism so many times in the past few years, I guess it was a knee-jerk response.

Poverty isn't generally a result of laziness. That's a bit of a myth. It's about several things; what situation you're born into, what school you go to... shoot a lot of it is simply chance. I work really hard for my salary, but I don't necessarily work any harder than someone working two jobs to make ends meet. I've done the minimum wage thing, and I have a healthy respect for someone working a crappy job.

When I was putting myself through college, I often had to hold down several minimum wage jobs at once. It was one of the most difficult times in my life, way more difficult than things are now making 4-5 times what I did then.

I don't think a perfect world would include no rich or poor, just maybe not so many people in poverty regardless of how hard they work. The strongest person I ever knew was my grandfather. He was career military, but for the first 30 years of his life he was dirt poor in a big way. His strength and effort had nothing to do with his income.

I'm pretty sure you're familiar with arise/train-wreck Paris Hilton. She's the worst kind of what you might call "weak". She makes more money in a year than most people make in a lifetime. Why? Chance. It's chance we should seek to compensate for. Chance likely shares a large part of the responsibility for the large amount of black and latino prisoners. Had they been born white, they'd not likely be in prison, statistically. I'm not suggesting an end to personal responsibility, but can you really hold someone responsible for something that's a matter of pure chance?

Not always. Some have the option, some don't. It's important to recognize that some people are either poor or criminals because of factors outside of their control. We can't be absolutist about it.

We do, but it's not enough. Last year I donated quite a bit to scholarship funds. I donated to the NAACP a few years back, actually. It's not enough because a lot of hard working people are unwilling or unable to take responsibility for their society. You reap the rewards of my donations to scholarships via a more stable society, but you refuse to admit it.

Again, only BLACKS. And in this one you can't talk about Afghanis in poverty.... just BLACKS. Poverty is poverty. If ANYONE lives in poverty they should have equal access to social programs... not just blacks. And to say "well, that particular ethnicity/race/group living in poverty, I'm not going to comment on because poverty doesn't hit everyone the same." BULL FUCKING SHIT. POVERTY IS FUCKING POVERTY. Tell the whites/Asians/Afghanis/anyone living in poverty that their poverty is not worse than the blacks. That is so fucking racist and such bullshit it's disgusting.

So where is the equal opportunities for ALL PEOPLE in poverty?????? You say that's what you were talking about. You say you weren't just trying to get "reparations", you say people have different meanings for "reparations" and yours is supposedly for ALL in poverty..... but before you said that when people started questioning about ALL PEOPLE in poverty, it was all just about the blacks getting what YOU believe they deserve.

That is the very definition of racist and then waffling.

---------- Post added at 03:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:17 AM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

Reparations mean different things to different people. Anyone saying we should start issuing checks either isn't being serious or probably doesn't understand the consequences of such an action. As far as I'm concerned, it's simply a matter of doing what we can to ensure that the cycles of racial problems are finally purged from our society, and the government can play a role in that purge by ensuring that there are responsible and proven social programs available.

And finally.... later you go back to how we owe only 1 race.... fuck everyone else in poverty..... it's all about redemption for 1 race. Not trying to help lower poverty levels for ALL.

scout · 05-10-2009, 03:55 AM

For the record I don't feel any guilt nor do I feel I owe the black race anything. They are as responsible for their personal destiny as I am. Any of us can choose to live below the poverty line and blame something or somebody for our despair and the government will send us a check once a month. At the end of the day this is still the United States of America and anyone can do anything they want if they put their mind, heart and soul into it. There are plenty of examples of black people rising above and reaching for the sky and to blame other races for the despair of those that refuse is racist and it takes away from the millions who have already and those still putting forth the effort. There will always be a small percentage of people that have fallen on hard times and need assistance for a short time or those that don't have the mental fortitude to make it and will be in need government assistance their entire life but the vast majority of people living below the poverty line, regardless of race, live there by choice because it's the easy way out. It's much easier waking up amid squalor and crime everyday blaming someone else while you cash that government check than it is to take responsibility and work your ass off day and night to get out of the situation your in.

timalkin · 05-10-2009, 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

Can you elaborate about how you came to this conclusion about the entire black race not putting value on marriage? And before you type, ask yourself if this would be something you'd be willing to say to the face of one of your black friends or coworkers.

This is where your problem lies: You think something that isn't politically correct is necessarily wrong because you could not/would not say it to someone's face. If it doesn't hurt anybody's feelings, then it must be the right answer...right? That's a load of bullshit. The truth hurts sometimes, but we all must face the truth if we are going to eliminate the problems facing blacks in poverty situations. What do you think when black people say that black culture doesn't value marriage? Is that a racist thing to say?

If I see an obese person dying of high blood pressure and diabetes, my solution to them isn't going to be "oh, it's OK. It's the restaurant's fault for putting too many delicious fatty items on the menu." My answer to them would be "Get the fucking twinkie out of your mouth you disgusting slob. You've done this to yourself, now unfuck yourself or you will die. It's simple." Whether it would hurt that person's feelings is irrelevant to the truth.

roachboy · 05-10-2009, 07:11 AM

so now the conservative set is getting pissy. fact is that it's only in your fantasy world that socio-economic opportunities are distributed evenly. in the real world, class position is an overwhelming determinant of possibilities. o sure, part of being conservative entails avoiding nasty ugly structural realities and substituting for it mythologies of the Execeptional Individual who through Gumption and Grit strides manfully off the pages of a horatio alger story and into 3-d where he Triumphs Over Adversity because this is Amurica dammit and that's what we do here, that's what amurica is about, these Exceptional Individuals who stride manfully off the pages of cheap stupid 19th century novels. so Everyboy Everywhere is an Exceptional Individual conditioned only by the level of Gumption and Grit poured into his skull by whomever wrote this cheap stupid novel that is amurica conservative style--nothing but Exceptional Individuals who manfully Compete with each other in the manly man arena of the Market and if one Exceptional Individual makes out better than another then dag gummit it Proves that there is a Gumption and Grit Gap. folk who do not fare well in the manly man world of competition are therefore Less in the Virtue Department. so if there are inequities, it's the fault of those who are trapped in them--if they were more Filled with manly Gumption and Grit--if they were more like you, in short, who is obviously the Hero of your own private Novel of amurica---they wouldn't be in that position of disadvantagedness.

there is no structure in this cheap stupid novel that conservatives substitute for social reality: no history, no institutions, no class, no effects of class.

this novel is published by the chump press and distributed free of charge through conservative media outlets everywhere.
you may enjoy reading it, you may prefer it to the world, but in the end it's just a novel.

scout · 05-10-2009, 07:51 AM

what's with all this class warfare crap damn i'm about as poor as poor can be without living on the government teat and I don't feel held back other than from my own moral limitations and the 50% of the population out there that want to tax me to no end to provide for fat lazy fuckin slobs that just wanna hang out and sell drugs for extra cash all this class bullshit might work well in europe or somewhere else in the fucking world but it don't have to be that way here unless you want it to or it suits your socio/political bullshit give me a break.

What's class is holding you back?

roachboy · 05-10-2009, 08:10 AM

what are you talking about?

that the united states is a class system is self-evident. that wealth opens advantages that lack of weatlh forecloses is self-evident. that the children ot the wealthy are likely to have a higher-quality education than are the children of the less wealthy simply by virtue of the position they're born into is self-evident. that education is shapes not only one's sense of socio-economic and cultural options but also the sense of what you deserve in this life---also self-evident. these are indicators of large-scale, structural inequalities that operate at the core of the american cultural system. what this conversation shifted to for the most part, before the conservative inability to think in structural terms started being performed *again* and so send the conversation hurtling into the ridiculous void that's formed around shit like the bakke decision, was that race and class are intertwined in the united states and that to address questions of racism and its history at this point pitches you toward dealing with questions of class. THAT is a problem, given the reactionary self-serving nature of amurican politics.

class stratification shows itself most obviously in the aggregate...conservatives like to pretend that there are only exceptions. conservative thinking cant address history, can't address structure, and so has nothing to say about class stratification.

so you, scout, ask the wrong question

Rekna · 05-10-2009, 08:18 AM

I think there is a fundamental mistake happening in this thread. Everyone is discussing what caused the problem and not discussing how do we fix the problem. In the end the question of fault pales in comparison to the question of how do we fix it.

Seaver · 05-10-2009, 09:13 AM

Rat no one is saying the playing field is fair. No one is saying that everyone, if they try hard enough, can make it. What we do say that everyone CAN make it, as in the opportunities are there. Kind of like Ratatouille, not everyone can be a good Chef, but a good chef can come from anywhere

.

Quote:

This question would make a hell of a thread

Honestly I see that it would quickly divulge into "truths" which have little basis in reality but fit into social belief structures, such as the post which I was just typing against.

Willravel · 05-10-2009, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturian

So what caused the marriage rate among blacks to drastically decline since the 60s?

Oh, so now you don't know at all. You're just guessing it's cultural.

Pan, the thread is about reparations, so I outlined necessary and sweeping social reform in a racial context in order to explain why it was applicable to the thread topic. Okay? The truth is that giving scholarships and such to the poor would be giving scholarships and such to the descendants of slaves, and NOWHERE in the thread did I say ONLY black people. Nowhere. If this thread were about illegal immigration into the US from central and south America, I'd have said "we need sweeping social reform for Latino immigrants and children of immigrants", but I would have been making a call for the exact same social and governmental changes. Understand? I'd not be saying, "let's turn away whites, asians, and blacks... only let Latinos partake of the social change" at all, and you know it.

You assume by specifically naming black people I was excluding everyone else. That assumption was obviously wrong. Now that I've explained the position in the clearest way I can, we can move on.

scout · 05-10-2009, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

what are you talking about?

that the united states is a class system is self-evident. that wealth opens advantages that lack of weatlh forecloses is self-evident. that the children ot the wealthy are likely to have a higher-quality education than are the children of the less wealthy simply by virtue of the position they're born into is self-evident. that education is shapes not only one's sense of socio-economic and cultural options but also the sense of what you deserve in this life---also self-evident. these are indicators of large-scale, structural inequalities that operate at the core of the american cultural system. what this conversation shifted to for the most part, before the conservative inability to think in structural terms started being performed *again* and so send the conversation hurtling into the ridiculous void that's formed around shit like the bakke decision, was that race and class are intertwined in the united states and that to address questions of racism and its history at this point pitches you toward dealing with questions of class. THAT is a problem, given the reactionary self-serving nature of amurican politics.

class stratification shows itself most obviously in the aggregate...conservatives like to pretend that there are only exceptions. conservative thinking cant address history, can't address structure, and so has nothing to say about class stratification.

so you, scout, ask the wrong question

No I don't believe I did. Unlike India for example just because you are born a poor white/green/blue/yellow/black/orange child doesn't mean you aren't allowed to move up the socio/economic ladder if you apply yourself and catch a few breaks. Granted children of wealthy parents have an easier time of maintaining their socio/economic status throughout their lives but there isn't laws preventing someone moving up. It seems your implying is because someone is born a poor black/white child they will always be poor because whitey/the man/whoever you wish to insert here is keeping them down which is simply not true. They may have a harder time than a rich black/white kid but the opportunity is still there.

flstf · 05-10-2009, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver

I've stayed out of the root-of-the-problem discussion thus far, but I have to point out the incorrect nature of this.

Look up the Harlem Renaissance. Look up the development of black culture throughout the first half of the 20th Century and you will see strong households with strong parental influences. Black schools which looked inward to help develop new talent leading to such greats as George Washington Carver and Dr. Williams. Black doctors who specialized in medication in the ghettos, black teachers inspiring their own to overcome and persevere.

Somewhere along the line the family structure broke down. It was not due to slavery, and the oppression during the equality movements only seemed to strengthen it. Somewhere it broke down, and to be honest I can't figure out what.

As I understand it, single parent households and out of wedlock births have increased a lot since the sixties for both blacks and whites with blacks being about twice as many. Single parent (mainly women) households are now considered normal.

I recall several years ago watching a Bill Moyers special concerning the growing number of black teenage pregnancies. The girls actually were trying to get pregnant and said they wanted someone in this world who would love them unconditionally. The boys said they felt no obligation to support their kids and most of the girls were not trying to collect support from them.

It is an interesting social problem though, why so many women of both races choose to be single parents and so many men choose to be absent fathers.

roachboy · 05-10-2009, 03:31 PM

scout--basically, until class position is no longer determinate of the quality of education one has available, this "opportunity" business is just hot air for most people.

you might not land where you started. the opportunity exists. you might be hit by a meteor. the possibility exists.

either way this pub discussion format means that data isn't allowed. maybe sometime we can talk about social mobility. it helps to have data to refer to: things are rarely what one thinks they are. this goes for me too, of course: that's why i like data. anyway, not sure how much further to go with this here, but we'll see what happens.

05-09-2009, 08:46 AM	#97 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	it is strange---conservatives like to talk about meritocracy and in the process pretend to themselves that such a (one-dimensional) social arrangment is possible without anything being done to alter the class system. when people in the public sphere (you know) have the audacity to actually reference the inequities of that class system, conservatives set them up as objects of the usual Grouphate. so it appears that conservatives oppose the class order at the level of fantasy, but in fact they kinda like it--if this were not the case, they'd abandon this fantasy of equality and turn their attention to the actually existing class order, how it operates how it reproduces itself, it's effects--and would advocate a politics that would go after that order, change it, and change it radically. it's like there's some political circuit that one assimilates as one drifts into being conservative and that circuit determines associations and those associations determine outcomes. so even folk whose underlying sentiments might be quite close to one another's end up not being able to communicate really because the interior of arguments--and so of viewpoints---differ enough that even when we might try to talk about the same thing, we can't quite manage it. the problem then is the way shifts happen from a sense of something being wrong or fucked up or whatever into the set of arguments and associations that let us articulate that sense and come away from the process with the sense that we'd said something. the only way to have a discussion across divergent arguments/associations is at a remove from them--ok what is the problem here; how to describe it so that we know we have at least some hope of referring to the same thing; what kinds of argument best fit with this image of the world that is produced through description; how do we evaluate this sense of fit? i can see some common ground at the level of sentiment with quite a few of the folk above whose arguments run counter to mine---not all of them---but quite a few. but we can't ever seem to get anywhere in terms of doing more than simply rehearsing the grids we start with. maybe it's a messageboard thing---i dunno. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

05-10-2009, 03:55 AM	#110 (permalink)
scout Psycho	For the record I don't feel any guilt nor do I feel I owe the black race anything. They are as responsible for their personal destiny as I am. Any of us can choose to live below the poverty line and blame something or somebody for our despair and the government will send us a check once a month. At the end of the day this is still the United States of America and anyone can do anything they want if they put their mind, heart and soul into it. There are plenty of examples of black people rising above and reaching for the sky and to blame other races for the despair of those that refuse is racist and it takes away from the millions who have already and those still putting forth the effort. There will always be a small percentage of people that have fallen on hard times and need assistance for a short time or those that don't have the mental fortitude to make it and will be in need government assistance their entire life but the vast majority of people living below the poverty line, regardless of race, live there by choice because it's the easy way out. It's much easier waking up amid squalor and crime everyday blaming someone else while you cash that government check than it is to take responsibility and work your ass off day and night to get out of the situation your in. __________________ "The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." Thomas Jefferson

05-10-2009, 07:11 AM	#112 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	so now the conservative set is getting pissy. fact is that it's only in your fantasy world that socio-economic opportunities are distributed evenly. in the real world, class position is an overwhelming determinant of possibilities. o sure, part of being conservative entails avoiding nasty ugly structural realities and substituting for it mythologies of the Execeptional Individual who through Gumption and Grit strides manfully off the pages of a horatio alger story and into 3-d where he Triumphs Over Adversity because this is Amurica dammit and that's what we do here, that's what amurica is about, these Exceptional Individuals who stride manfully off the pages of cheap stupid 19th century novels. so Everyboy Everywhere is an Exceptional Individual conditioned only by the level of Gumption and Grit poured into his skull by whomever wrote this cheap stupid novel that is amurica conservative style--nothing but Exceptional Individuals who manfully Compete with each other in the manly man arena of the Market and if one Exceptional Individual makes out better than another then dag gummit it Proves that there is a Gumption and Grit Gap. folk who do not fare well in the manly man world of competition are therefore Less in the Virtue Department. so if there are inequities, it's the fault of those who are trapped in them--if they were more Filled with manly Gumption and Grit--if they were more like you, in short, who is obviously the Hero of your own private Novel of amurica---they wouldn't be in that position of disadvantagedness. there is no structure in this cheap stupid novel that conservatives substitute for social reality: no history, no institutions, no class, no effects of class. this novel is published by the chump press and distributed free of charge through conservative media outlets everywhere. you may enjoy reading it, you may prefer it to the world, but in the end it's just a novel. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

05-10-2009, 07:51 AM	#113 (permalink)
scout Psycho	what's with all this class warfare crap damn i'm about as poor as poor can be without living on the government teat and I don't feel held back other than from my own moral limitations and the 50% of the population out there that want to tax me to no end to provide for fat lazy fuckin slobs that just wanna hang out and sell drugs for extra cash all this class bullshit might work well in europe or somewhere else in the fucking world but it don't have to be that way here unless you want it to or it suits your socio/political bullshit give me a break. What's class is holding you back? __________________ "The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." Thomas Jefferson

05-10-2009, 08:10 AM	#114 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	what are you talking about? that the united states is a class system is self-evident. that wealth opens advantages that lack of weatlh forecloses is self-evident. that the children ot the wealthy are likely to have a higher-quality education than are the children of the less wealthy simply by virtue of the position they're born into is self-evident. that education is shapes not only one's sense of socio-economic and cultural options but also the sense of what you deserve in this life---also self-evident. these are indicators of large-scale, structural inequalities that operate at the core of the american cultural system. what this conversation shifted to for the most part, before the conservative inability to think in structural terms started being performed again and so send the conversation hurtling into the ridiculous void that's formed around shit like the bakke decision, was that race and class are intertwined in the united states and that to address questions of racism and its history at this point pitches you toward dealing with questions of class. THAT is a problem, given the reactionary self-serving nature of amurican politics. class stratification shows itself most obviously in the aggregate...conservatives like to pretend that there are only exceptions. conservative thinking cant address history, can't address structure, and so has nothing to say about class stratification. so you, scout, ask the wrong question __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

05-08-2009, 09:26 AM	#82 (permalink)
flstf Easy Rider Location: Moscow on the Ohio	Punishing this generation for the actions of past generations makes about as much sense as punishing a son for the crimes of his father. If any reparations are owed they should have been paid by those who committed the unjust acts and not their descendants or others just because they are members of the same race. Improving programs for the impoverished should be encouraged regardless of how they got there. To my way of thinking this is much different than trying to justify paying reparations directly to the descendants of an abused race by the descendants of other races who had nothing to do with it.

05-08-2009, 11:56 AM	#83 (permalink)
Zenturian Banned	Willtravel is hopless. He has the racist problem of low expectations. Again, he thinks blacks can not help themselves unless enlightened whites like himself give them the boost they need. There is no debate in this topic, he won't hear any viewpoint other than that. And he clearly thinks he is helping. That is the ironic thing. Like Fredrick Douglas said, " Let the black man rise or fall on their own." Clearly wiltravel must think that Douglass is part of the problem...

05-08-2009, 01:17 PM	#85 (permalink)
Zenturian Banned	What about poor whites then? Should they get reparations? There are vastly more poor whites. Did racisim and the system make them poor? ---------- Post added at 05:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:11 PM ---------- And I am calling your racist because you are. You are not a bad person, but you honestly think that Blacks can not make it in America without help. That implies they are inferior. Asians can make it. Hispanics, but not blacks. Ergo, you are racist. That is my whole point of reparations. They are a racist notion that a certain group of people can not succeed in a nation that has fucked over everyone. Look at the history of the Irish in America. More than half the population of Ireland came to the New World as slaves, yet you would be laughed at for suggesting that I should get reparations. And if I were to claim that I can not get a break due to my ancestor's enslavement, no one would take me seriously. The Irish suffered from slavery the same as, or more than any other ethnic minority, yet for some reason Irish can do fine without handouts. but do gooders like you think that for some reason, blacks are incapable of fending for themselves unless white people do it for them. Hence, you are racist. No offence as I am sure you are a nice guy, but you thinking so poorly of blacks is racist.

05-08-2009, 01:26 PM	#87 (permalink)
Zenturian Banned	And proportionatly blacks commit more murders, rapes and violent crimes. That may be the reason more blacks are in jails.... But don't let logic get in the way of a good debate. No one is against good schools, except maybe the democrats. Look at how well they run the school systems. i am with you on this one. Toss out the unions and let schools compete for money and watch quality improve. Who suffers when Unions ( ei, democrats and liberals) the poor. And if everyone gets better schools, then why do you insist on calling it reparations? Why not make a thread called "Improve Public Education?" Methinks you are just itching for a fight.

05-08-2009, 10:20 PM	#92 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	I never changed any tune. Black people are disproportionately poor, therefore a move to help all poor people would disproportionately help black people more. Black people are poor because of inequality in society the roots of which can be traced all the way back to slavery. So, to put it into one sentence: I want social reform specifically dealing with impoverished and high crime areas, which happen to include a disproportionate amount of black people due to race-based societal problems dating back generations, the consequence of which will eventually be a more equal opportunity for success regardless of race, gender, or creed.

05-09-2009, 07:34 AM	#95 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Reparations mean different things to different people. Anyone saying we should start issuing checks either isn't being serious or probably doesn't understand the consequences of such an action. As far as I'm concerned, it's simply a matter of doing what we can to ensure that the cycles of racial problems are finally purged from our society, and the government can play a role in that purge by ensuring that there are responsible and proven social programs available.

05-09-2009, 07:58 AM	#96 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	Aye no one in this thread has claimed that we should just write some checks. The "reparations" that Will and I have discussed have been about forward thinking social programs aimed at improving the future. Writing checks will do nothing to fix the problems we are seeing and in many ways may make them worse.

05-09-2009, 05:22 PM	#99 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Comon, you can do better than that. Do I even have to ask? Why do you think there's a higher rate of single parenthood among black people? It's the income! There's a higher rate of divorce among people of low income, and black people are disproportionately represented in the low income bracket. Social inequality becomes financial inequality becomes further social inequality. This isn't doctorate level sociology here.

05-09-2009, 08:19 PM	#104 (permalink)
Zenturian Banned	Well when 70 % if back kids are born into single parent families, well I guess that the math shows how black culture feels about marriage.

05-09-2009, 08:33 PM	#105 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Yeah, but you're assuming that it's culture that is the cause. What makes you think it's culture that causes this?

05-10-2009, 08:18 AM	#115 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	I think there is a fundamental mistake happening in this thread. Everyone is discussing what caused the problem and not discussing how do we fix the problem. In the end the question of fault pales in comparison to the question of how do we fix it.

05-10-2009, 03:31 PM	#120 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	scout--basically, until class position is no longer determinate of the quality of education one has available, this "opportunity" business is just hot air for most people. you might not land where you started. the opportunity exists. you might be hit by a meteor. the possibility exists. either way this pub discussion format means that data isn't allowed. maybe sometime we can talk about social mobility. it helps to have data to refer to: things are rarely what one thinks they are. this goes for me too, of course: that's why i like data. anyway, not sure how much further to go with this here, but we'll see what happens. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite