Willravel

Is this a serious response? White supremacists by their very nature are unreliable sources for even-handed information on race relations. They believe, by definition, that they are of the superior race and all other races (especially black people) are intrinsically deficient. They are a part of the REAL problem.

timalkin

And a black guy off the street IS a reliable source for even-handed information on race relations?

You get the same quality of information whether you ask a random black guy or a white supremacist...i.e. not credible, with too much bias.

Why don't you and your apologist friends give your own money away?

__________________
Trinity: "What do you need?"

Neo: "Guns. Lots of guns."

-The Matrix

Zenturian

Been there done that. Guess what, you would be suprised with how many agree. Now why don't you go and tell blacks that they can't make it without government intervention?

Willravel

He'll have a better understanding of the experience of being black than you or I.
You're equating the perceptions of an average black man with the perceptions of a white supremacist. That's racist, tim. You're certainly welcome to your opinion, but your opinion is racist. Instead of blaming people that are trying to help have you ever asked yourself if it's attitudes like yours that contribute to inequality?

---------- Post added at 08:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:55 PM ----------

It's a lot easier to believe that you're simply making this up.
I'll tell them that we're going to finally give them access to the same government benefits that rich white people have gotten for generations. I'll tell them their kids will get textbooks that were written in the last 10 years. I'll tell them they'll be able to earn, just like their white counterparts, their way to college. I'll tell them they're going to finally get the same police presence as rich neighborhoods in order to protect them and their children from cocaine and herion. I'm sure they'll be crushed. Whatever will they do, finally getting an equal opportunity to succeed? I'm sure you'll be there to comfort them in their time of need.

timalkin

Actually, your opinion is racist. You want to wipe their asses for them and tell them it's whitey's fault when they don't succeed. You are the one contributing to inequality by not holding them accountable for their own actions.

Give them your own money.

__________________
Trinity: "What do you need?"

Neo: "Guns. Lots of guns."

-The Matrix

Zenturian

It is isn't it. Anything that doesn't fit in with your world view is easy for you to disbelieve. Wow, some black people actually believe what I believe. How odd...

Excuse me? What government benifits do rich white people get from the government? Can you post a link to them? Cut and paste the name of the program that only Rich White People can apply for? And you say that I have lost touch with reality. In fact this is the basis of your whole problem. You actually believe crap like this. There are more government plans to help poor minorities go to school than anyone can shake a bunch of sticks at. Name one government plan that helps only rich white people. I double dog dare you.


and can you name the schools that only have ten year old textbooks when next door the public schools ( I assume filled with rich white kids) have up to date, rocket powered, solar panel textbooks? You are delusional. All public schools suck. If you have access to money you get good schooling. Color has no part of it. Poor white kids in bad neighborhoods got to poor neighborhood schools in far greater numbers than blacks. And again, the issue is poverty, not color.
And its been said in this thread over and over again why blacks are proportionatly poorer than whites. Its due to black America's values. Blacks are more likley to come from homes with many kids from multiple absentee dads. Black kids are more likely to be raised by a single grandmother than whites. And yes, I would say it to blacks, and I have. And yes, some actually see the problem and address it. Black America needs to get up and take care of their own nuclear families, cause white america will not, and should not have to, do it.
The problem is a breakdown of the black family. If you actually knew some black people instead of talking about them in coffee shops with your liberal college friends, you would know this.

---------- Post added at 11:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:12 PM ----------

The sad thing is that he is incapable of seeing this. I challenged him to go tell some random black guy that he can not make it in this country without government intervention. I would love to see that on Youtube.

aberkok

Timalkin you are confusing the removal of systematic roadblocks to achievement with handouts. If you think that Will is talking about wiping asses, then it's not any greater of an ass-wiping than the rest of us get.

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Zenturian

Ok, I will play. What roadblocks are you talking about?

aberkok

Segregation, health care inequality, and lack of capital thanks to the legacy of slavery. Enough?

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Warden Gentiles: "It? Perfectly innocent. But I can see how, if our roles were reversed, I might have you beaten with a pillowcase full of batteries."

Zenturian

Wrong again. Poverty due to chidren being raised by a single parent. If you recal, blacks had a lower poverty rate in the 40s, -70s and guess what? They also had a higher rate of kids being raised in two parent households. Get blacks to value the family unit again instead of being happy with "baby Dadddies" and things will get better. Sucks when you can't blame whitey, doesn't it?

aberkok

Recal?
The U.S. census historical poverty tables go back to 1959 and tell the opposite story you do. Poverty levels for blacks seem to be at 55% in 1959 and have since fallen to about 24%. I'm not sure where your data is coming from. I also don't know where you get the notion that blacks don't value the family unit and are happy with baby-daddies.

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Warden Gentiles: "It? Perfectly innocent. But I can see how, if our roles were reversed, I might have you beaten with a pillowcase full of batteries."

Willravel

You may not have noticed, but wealthier areas have better public schools. If we could elevate the schools in lower income areas to the level of schools in affluent areas, we would help to alleviate the inequality. Educational deprivation impacts a student's life catastrophically.

Being poor perpetuates being poor, you seem and being uneducated perpetuates being uneducated. It would be nice if the color of one's skin didn't matter, but the fact is that for hundreds of years in our country it did matter. Brown v. Board of Education was only 40 years ago. Think about that. 40 years ago, black students weren't even allowed into white schools. They had to attend extremely poorly funded, overcrowded schools. Just now the first generation of black millionaires is retiring. Reflect on what that says about the rate of rising economic status of black people. It's going to take a lot of time for the inequalities to work themselves out, if they ever can. Providing programs like increasing funding to poorer schools would help to bring equilibrium instead of us having to wait another generation.

It's not a matter of weakness, it's a matter of being victimized for generations. Just like the immediate effects of the Emancipation Proclamation weren't social equality, Brown v. Board of Ed didn't immediately grant an equal education to all.
Actually, there's no evidence that private schools actually increase student capability or performance. The data available, which I can't link in a PUB DISCUSSION (but which you can easily find if you google it), supports the case that private schools simply have higher percentages of students who would excel in any school based on their established ability and background. You see, affluent parents are told, by the private schools, that their kids will have a better opportunity than at public schools and because of the previous generation of duped parents, the test scores and college acceptance rates back them up. It's really quite clever. The one exception is catholic schools run by holy orders. For some reason, they have unusually high rates of student performance. Maybe it's the fear of god, I dunno.
This is a contradiction. Black people are disproportionately poor, therefore they have less access to money.
This ignores a very simply fact: there are a lot more white people in the US than black people. Looking at pure numbers, yes there are more white poor families, but when you look at percentage of each population, it changes radically.
Wait a second, you're aware of this? Why did you ignore that fact immediatally above?
My values are radically different than yours, but I'm fairly well off.
And black people are disproportionately poor. You don't see the connection there?
And black people are disproportionately poor. You don't see the connection there?
There's no such thing as "white america" and "black america". That's where the trouble is. We're all the same red blooded Americans, but some of us happen to be born into a system that deprives them of the same basic necessities. If everyone started from the same place, if we all had equal footing, then the exceptional among us (regardless of skin color) would succeed. Unfortunately, many exceptional people are born into abject poverty through no fault of their parents, have to go do crappy schools through no fault of their own, and are surrounded by drugs through no fault of their own. That shouldn't happen and you know it. We should all have the same opportunity to excel. That's actually how free market capitalism works, the idea is that each player starts with the same amount of chips, it's just the smart, ambitious, and capable that end up with a lot more in the end.

---------- Post added at 09:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:24 PM ----------

Conservapedia?

JumpinJesus

The root of the problem is right here in this thread. It boils down to a bunch of white people arguing over how much better they know the black experience and how they know what's best for black people.

It would be outright hilarious if you all weren't so goddamn serious that you all actually insist you know what's best. It's pretty condescending, don't you think?

__________________
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aberkok

So what do you suggest... not discuss it at all?

Personally, I'm basing my statements on the little bit of research I've done. I can't stress enough that it's based merely on a skeptical reading of Wikipedia, the census, and a few Michael Eric Dyson books and talks, so I'm no expert... but I thought that was the spirit of the PUB DISCUSSION. Besides... I never mentioned whether I'm for or against reparations, nor what form they might take.

I don't know what to tell you. If we had more black involvement, that might be a start. Would that set things right with you?

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Warden Gentiles: "It? Perfectly innocent. But I can see how, if our roles were reversed, I might have you beaten with a pillowcase full of batteries."

JumpinJesus

Did I mention not discussing it?

I'm not talking about the discussion of reparations, I'm talking about all the finger wagging by the self-professed "experts" on both sides of the equation here.

I never called into question the format of this thread nor did I single you out so your response here perplexes me.

I'm not asking you to tell me anything. I mentioned much earlier that we should honor our promises.

__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

Willravel

I'm arguing about poverty, simply bearing in mind that black people are disproportionately poor. I don't see what my skin color has to do with that.

Not everyone to post in this thread is white, btw.

JumpinJesus

Will, you and I share a lot of the same political ideals. The difference is that I believe it's better to let those with actual experience share their experiences rather than presume that I know their experiences.

Presuming to know the experiences of people whose experiences I will never experience is, in my opinion, patronizing at best and dishonest at worst.

After 8 years spending my days in some of Chicago's poorest, most crime-riddled neighborhoods, I still would never presume to know what their experiences are what their lives are like.

I'd be curious to know how you became such an expert on the black American in poverty experience. Would you share it with us?

__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

Willravel

Were you yourself poor or were you just living amongst them?
Expertise isn't needed to understand basic statistics. I know it's a common misconception behind the scenes that I pretend to be an expert on everything, but that's simply not the case.

I'm not shocking anyone with the revelation that black people are statistically more likely to be poor, and I'm not socking anyone with the revelation that schools in poor areas tend to be worse. These are simple concepts to grasp. I doubt you were dumbstruck to read them. Adding on to those facts that the poor are less likely to graduate from high school and get into college, and that marital problems are commonly attributed at least in part to financial difficulties, a picture starts to form. Again, no difficult concepts requiring expertise to comprehend or communicate. Poverty has been linked to criminality, and non-whites are disproportionately represented in our prison systems. Finally, a good and proven way to get out of poverty is with a good education.

So it's obviously a combination of black culture and liberal apologists.

pan6467

I agree. I am just at a loss how one can so blatantly keep talking about helping all poor people, yet continue about how we need to give only a certain people reparations.

Poor is poor. Poverty is poverty. Help ALL people period, exclamation point. Allow ALL people the chance to better their lives, not just focus on 1 group.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

JumpinJesus

I was quite poor. the place I lived in actually had holes in the floor that allowed us to see into the apartment below us. In the winter, it would actually snow inside the apartment because the place was so poorly sealed and insulated.

But that wasn't in Chicago's west side. My days there were spent merely as a teacher.

Since I'm not behind the scenes anymore, I can't say. I don't recall the word "expert" ever being used to describe you, though.

We do agree here. Of course, I'd probably be more petulant and less condescending in how I worded it, but we write what we know, from what I've heard.


What an odd thing to say.

-----

Just to be clear, this comment:
is based upon general statistical knowledge?

__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

Willravel

No one's said anything of the sort in this thread. If you want to bring it up again, I''ll fill up another page.
You were poor, so you likely have at least some understanding of the state of being poor.
Yeah, it's a bad habit that condescension thing. It's probably rooted in intellectual vanity, but more often than not here it's my way of walking the line in order to respond in kind.
Not even a little. I'd already formed my conclusions based on the evidence, but my arguments were being ignored. I really posted it on the off chance he might actually try it.

mixedmedia

So they are stupid? Gullible? Lazy? Weak?

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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

roachboy

jj:

there comes a point in a discussion in a real pub where people have been drinking for a long time and the thread of what was being talked about starts to dissolve.
it's curious to see the same pattern happening in an imaginary one. presumably without the drinking part.

there's an experience of these debates that one can appeal to. one can know something of that general experience without claiming to know what's happening in the heads of everyone who posts, what particularities of individual histories condition them. that's because even a debate in a pub is a social phenomenon that's knowable at a variety of registers. these registers are not mutually exclusive.

the idea that to know a social phenomenon means that you have to know all the complexity of the individual experiences that pass through it, that are impacted by it, operates from a viewpoint that claims to have a definition of "expertise" that is not outlined (positions like this are strongest when they're not outlined) that is more capacious and therefore better than other forms of expertise. without that, there'd be no basis for saying anything about the "experts"...so the claim that there's something odd about the "experts" in this debate follows from the same logic it criticizes.


the content of that claim is that to know a social phenomenon is to know all the individual experiences. well, if that's the case then no-one can know anything about the social world without knowing everything about the social world. in which case all discussions are shuffling about arbitrary factoids and debates are shaped not by how these factoids are shuffled but by claims about the nature of the shuffling.

this sort of nonsense works best when it comes wrapped up in the accompanying claim that all positions but your own are patronizing.

this typically works best when the people you pull it on are drunk.

==================
to keep with the idea of drunken argument, now i'll do the same kind of thing i was just criticizing. discussions in a bar--real or imaginary--that exclude information from outside operate on the basis of assumptions which tip into prejudice structures (which is a technical term that doesn't mean what you think but i can't come up with a better one--dispositions and the images of the world that accompany them--ideas or pictures that order your view of aspects of the world that are distant from your immediate experience, that simplify the world and fit it into your overall aesthetic)....what can be interesting about drunken conversations concerning phenomena--o i dunno--the intertwining of past and present as it plays out across the american class structure (which you can talk about without knowing all experiences of all individuals who are impacted upon by that structure); the way good ole amurican racism--which has a history (which you can talk about) that was always from the start histories---the way racism has intertwined with class across the history of the american class structure; and what might be done to alter how that class structure effects those who are disadvantaged by it. reparations in this context gets for some folk anyway turned into a metaphor for addressing class.

for others, that shift cannot happen because they don't organize their images of the world in terms of collective processes like class.

this is not without interest because without claiming to stand entirely outside of things, you can pick out these images and do things with them. stick pins in em, put them in a row on a corkboard, look at them, notice patterns. then you can say: i see a pattern...if you're more conservative you tend to avoid social processes and their effects and instead prefer to pin the effects of these processes on some individual characteristic like virtue or lack thereof. whether the way that gets coded does or does not slide into racism is an aesthetic matter. or maybe a decorum thing. or maybe it's just a function of not being quite drunk enough to say what you really think.

to get there, you don't need to make arguments about the content of what other folk say--you just need to arrange how what they say is organized so that you can look at it. when you talk about what you see, all you're doing is describing a pattern. it's not a claim to higher expertise because you could do the same thing. anyone can. it just has to occur to them that there's more than one way to talk about talking about things.


anyway, in that context, folk also tend to normalize the overall system. at the limit, there is no social system, just a bunch of people who bounce around brownian motion style, their trajectories a function of specific gravity (virtue)...

this is kinda interesting to see---again---because it is the split between conservatives and others; this kind of choice leads to very different ways of grouping information because they reflect quite different aesthetics.



once upon a time this thread offered a variety of positions, but now it is approaching last call and the statements are getting simpler and simpler. but it's good i suppose that folk show up on their way home from other things who are not also drunk and who can look at what's happening. happens all the time.


well it's getting late and i have to be up early in the morning. don't want to be hung over.

__________________
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spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

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Baraka_Guru

Fair enough, roachboy. I see that's what's going on here. But before I stumble home, I want to be sure I have at least a couple of takeaways:

1) Among blacks, the main cause of single parenthood (i.e. motherhood) — and, consequently, the cause of poverty, crime, and all other social problems — is...being black.

2) Issues that blacks face in America shouldn't be addressed by whites...because we're white and we will never understand...and black culture is to blame anyway.

Did I get that right?

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—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
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rahl

I'm really tired of this type of argument. We all start out on the same foot. We are born free in America. And the exceptional do succeed. If you take a set of black twins born into poverty, they are both given the exact same education, one decides to make something of his life and finish school, either go to college or start a business right out of highschool, move out of the "ghetto" and start a family. The other twin decides thats not for him, he decides to drop out of school, start selling drugs, robbing the local 7 11, and join a gang. Please will explain to me how two people with the same opportunities in life can have such different outcomes...I know it's hard for you to believe but people really are capable of making their own destinies wheter it's good or bad

Derwood

Completely untrue. Kids in Westchester County have infininitely more opportunities than kids in Jamaica Queens.

I don't even know what this means in this context.

Sure. But if you take a set of black twins, leave one in poverty and put one in an upper-class environment, the path to college/better life is exponentially easier.

Baraka_Guru

That's an interesting fantasy, rahl.

But I ask you this: what factors are at play that influence each set of decisions?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Derwood

That's exactly what Will has been saying all along. I don't know why you keep saying otherwise.

Will's stance (correct me if I'm wrong, Will): The best way to pay back the black community is to improve conditions for all poor people (of which blacks constitute a disproportional percentage).

Willravel

You got it exactly. I kinda wish I would have started posting in this thread in those straightforward terms, but oh well.

rahl

It's not a fantasy, these things happen all the time. I know that you liberals feel that nobody would be able to do anything without your help, but thats simply not the case.

Now i do concede that it is harder to make your way out of poverty, but not impossible. Otherwise nobody would ever do it.

And yes there are many different factors that lead to a life of crime, but FIRST AND FOREMOST is the concious choice to ignore the law.

---------- Post added at 12:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:30 PM ----------

I mean exactly what I said. Everyone is born free and equal under the law.

and taking a set of black twins then seperating them and giving one a different set of life circumstances then you are changeing the context of my example. Two people in the same exactsetting can have two completely different outcomes regardless of external factors, therefore it is choice that dictates their lives.

Baraka_Guru

Was there a study done on all these black twins? (Though I was referring more to the bit about starting on the same foot. Being born into poverty vs. being born into privilege is not being on the same foot.)

You fail to understand liberalism then. This isn't true.

I agree with this, as would most reasonable people.

Without delving too far into psychology, there are many choices made consciously, semi-consciously, and subconsciously. There are many irrational choices made based on one's state of mind. There are choices made out of desperation and out of fear and out of anger. If everyone started on the same foot, we'd all understand this equally.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

rahl

Please do not try and tell me that choosing crime is a phycological problem.
Why is it so hard for you people to believe that people should be held accountable for their actions. Not blame everyone else or their circumstances for being a burden to society

Baraka_Guru

What do you mean "you people"? I like to think I'm a man of integrity, which means I believe that everyone is responsible for themselves and should be held accountable for their actions. To think otherwise is to endorse, at worst, anarchy. I never intended to suggest that "everyone else" is at fault, or that "their circumstances" are the be-all and end-all of their fate. I don't believe in fate.

But I refuse to believe that these aren't among the contributing factors when it comes to the moral breakdown of a character that could have otherwise been successful and happy. If they don't account for anything, would you say it's okay to send all of our children to the worst neighbourhoods to attempt to prove otherwise? This, instead of perhaps doing something more constructive to make things better?

What would you suggest to make things better for black communities?

If crime has nothing to do with psychology, then why are so few criminals psychologically sound?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Willravel

That's it. That's the whole thing right there. It's harder to make your way out of poverty. It's easier when you're not impoverished. We (err, I) seek to simply provide a less extreme playing field. We're all starting within 20 yards plus or minus of the starting line. I'd like it to be closer to 5 yards, that way the race can be won by those who earn it.

Anyway, someone find rahl some black twins and let's do this shit.

pan6467

Ahhhh but there it is..... "The best way to pay back a certain community (blacks)."

It doesn't say HELP ALL..... it says pay back one race.

My argument is if you truly are wanting to help ALL, you wouldn't need that little phrase.

I have a feeling the Hispanic community would argue that they are disproportionately in poverty. So could some nationalities, some religions, and so on. ALL have legitimate claims. NOONE in the US should have to live in poverty.

When we add caveats like.... well if we put more into social programs it'll help this ONE group more.... is saying that the others in poverty are not as important. You can claim otherwise but why keep adding that caveat if not to keep focus on that ONE group.

I'm all for social programs with spending restraints and fiscal responsibility. But my question for those who like to focus on just ONE select group is this: What happens if the whites, Hispanics or whatever group in poverty starts succeeding and that ONE (the blacks) doesn't? Were those programs then "racist" and thus we need to do more for the blacks and make those programs race specific because obviously they were racist... others made it out but the blacks were held down yet again.

Do you not see the hole you are digging yourself into?

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

rahl

Yes that's it make snoody comments when someone doesn't agree with your point of view, that is a very mature way to handle it.

And my point is a valid one. I was simply stating that two people with the same set of circumstances aren't always going to have the same outcome in life, sometimes people just make bad decisions with their lives. It has nothing to do with external factors

Willravel

Yes, that's it, take this thread so seriously that even a hint at humor is taken as disrespect and derail the thread. That's a very mature way to handle it.
Only with poverty it has everything to do with external factors, which you already admitted. Where's the harm in improving poor schools? Who is hurt by that? Who are you fighting for?

---------- Post added at 10:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:37 AM ----------

There's no hole. You're just plain wrong. This isn't a thread about the Hispanic community, this is a thread about the black community. Deal with it.

rahl

[QUOTE=Willravel;2638680].

Only with poverty it has everything to do with external factors, which you already admitted. Where's the harm in improving poor schools? Who is hurt by that? Who are you fighting for?[COLOR="DarkSlateGray"]


I don't mind helping poor schools get better textbooks, improving their curiculum, but that's it. That's the extend of my tax dollars I want going out, there are already a number of failed social programs (welfare, medicaid, etc.) that people are taking advantage of and putting a strain on the economy. Until we get rid of these programs or atleast fix them so that people can't take advantage of them then we can spend all the money we have left and get nowhere

powerclown

Leave the black community alone, guilty white liberals. They don't want or need your pity. Don't patronize their dignity by implying they can't do for themselves. Instead I would recommened a career with the Humane Society helping down and out dogs and cats aspire to better lives. If youre ambitious, become a veterinarian.

Willravel

That's the centerpiece of my argument. I'd like all public schools to be good, not just the schools in more affluent areas. The other things—scholarships, after school programs, improved police presence and response, etc.—are all secondary to the school issue.

BTW, Powerclown, if I didn't know any better I'd think that you were saying "if you feel like helping the poor, help an animal instead". That's kinda sick.