cdwonderful

can we pay the descendents of slave owners under the eminent domain law??

__________________
Never try to teach a pig to whistle
it wastes your time,
and annoys the pig.....

pan6467

Not that hard to say, "I don't believe in Reparations for one race, but I do believe we need to help ALL in poverty." That would be an opinion on the Reparations question.

You seemed and still do, want to focus solely on how we screwed the blacks, still do and thus they deserve far more.
Read the highlighted parts of the posts I quoted Will. Show me where you talked about how your definition of "reparations" was meant for ALL people in poverty.

Then say what you mean. There's a difference between saying "social reform for ALL people and not just for blacks, than to go on and on about how the whites and our government owe the blacks.


Again, point out in the posts I quoted you where you mention helping anyone else but blacks. Or point it out in posts before the question was asked and you waffled.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Infinite_Loser

So how much money am I getting? That's all I want to know.

__________________
I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

pan6467

How much do you feel would it take for you to forgive our nation for slavery and the racism in our past?

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Willravel

I've been making the case for these social changes for years, across many threads in Politics and General Discussion, but in the case of this specific topic, reparations, the case needs to be made for the people in question. This isn't rocket science.

pan6467

I'm all for social changes, I believe there is a huge problem in the economic structure in this country and with the world.

However, I will fight for feasible, fiscally responsible social programs for ALL in poverty and lower classes but that doesn't mean I'm going to argue for reparations. They are 2 totally different arguments and say otherwise is just foolish.

That said: flat out Will, Do YOU believe that we should give reparations to blacks? A simple yes or no.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Willravel

Yes, there should be reparations for black people in the form of social changes that affect all impoverished people. That's as simple as I can make it. I don't support spending people checks, I don't support racist favoritism as you can't solve racism with more racism (see affirmative action), and I don't support simply leaving things as they are.

scout

So the current welfare system isn't enough? Would it be fair to say it's a good start?

With an answer like that Will perhaps you should try politics?

You answered yes but then proceeded to deny and contradict what you had previously stated.

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Willravel

It's not welfare, it's civilization. Government exists, and it exists to serve the people in ways that the market simply can't. To say that the market has failed the poor goes without saying. It's long since been time for the government to take education seriously. It's not enough to cram underpaid teachers into classrooms with 150 students to teach the answers to standardized tests because we're competing with school systems in Europe and Asia that make ours look like a joke. Without education, we lose the game and someone else gets to be the dominant economic force in the world. So yes, of course we should have better schools and better teachers. And since it's poverty that continues the cycles of things like hard drug sales and gangs, the solution lies in ending poverty. How do you do that? Why school, of course! Education means, on average, a ton more income. More income means one doesn't need to sell drugs and can settle on a safer career. More income means your kids don't need to be in gangs to survive. The other things, community centers, job training, etc. all are smaller programs to compliment the education system.

Imagine an America where regardless of where you live, you're near a good school, a school with a very high graduation rate, and a high college acceptance rate. Imagine what that would be like.
I like to get things done, so no that's not going to happen.
Not at all. I call for a shift in government to help prevent the poor from being left behind. In the case of this particular thread, it's the black poor people, but in truth it's all poor people. This thread just happens to be about reparations. As I said before, if this thread were about illegal immigration, I'd be talking about better schools for low-income Latino families, but the programs I would be presenting would still be for all poor people.

pan6467

Ah Will, Will, Will...... Can't answer a simple yes no question without trying to appease both sides.

Last time, to call it reparations is to single out only blacks and you know it. If you are wanting it to help all it is called social reform and programs aimed at helping all in poverty.

reparations - definition of reparations by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

scout

It all sounds really really good Will. The logistics of what you propose is simply impossible to achieve. What happens when everyone over the age of 22 has a bachelor degree or everyone over the age of 26 has a masters? What's going to happen to the wage scale? Eventually you will have a bunch of doctors of insert major here living on food stamps because the job market cant absorb it all. You would still have this dog eat dog world where only the cream of the crop got jobs. I guess the positive side of things would be you could have a philosophical debate with the grocery bagger or person pumping your gas.

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dksuddeth

just how has the market failed the poor?

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Willravel

To call something reparations is to imply a positive affect on the black population because of problems going all the way back to slavery. My proposal fits that bill, therefore I'm in the clear.

Providing better schools for all poor children, including black children, would go a long way in making amends for generations of institutionalized racism. It would be a first step in compensating for whole lifetimes of unfair treatment.

I don't know why you can't grasp this, it's really simple: programs to help all poor people will especially help poor black people because black people are disproportionately poor. Because it would be such a positive force in black America, helping to give poor black families (among others) the tools necessary to move into the middle and even upper class, I am totally comfortable calling it reparations.

I've got it both ways. You're just going to have to come to terms with it because it's starting to become a threadjack.

---------- Post added at 09:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:31 AM ----------

Hold on, that's a lot of hyperbole and I'll need a second to get back to reality.

Plenty of countries have education systems that put ours to absolute shame, and yet they manage to do so spending less per student. They have much, much higher graduation rates and higher college acceptance rates. Shoot, even here in the US we have schools that are able to provide excellent educations to students for a reasonable price, and they're public.

And under this theoretical system not everyone is going to have a BA, MA, or PhD. This is about opportunity, not giving everything away for free. My main scholarship in college was entirely dependent on my academic performance. Had I slipped below a certain point, the money would have disappeared and I would have found myself looking for a reasonably priced state school instead of a private university. This is about opportunity.

What I suspect would happen is that we'd see a much higher high school graduation rate, higher average grades, slightly higher college admission, but more importantly college admission that more accurately reflects the average income of an American. You won't just have the ultra-rich going to Yale, you'll have a higher percentage of middle-class and lower-class kids going, too. Does this mean everyone will have a PhD? Well let me ask you this: do you think everyone is capable of getting a PhD? Think of the kids you went to school with. Could everyone in your graduating class have gone on to get a PhD if they were given scholarships? If you're anything like me, the answer is "probably not". Besides, not everyone wants to be in school until they're 30. It's just about having that option available for very bright kids that without the money would be forced to do work that didn't utilize their best abilities.
In my experience it's exponentially more difficult to earn a better income the more poor you are, therefore the people in our society that get the least have to work the hardest to get more.

dksuddeth

so, to be more specific, the JOB market has been unfair to the poor. you think capitalism fails the poor?

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Willravel

I'm all for the freedom to earn your own way, honestly, but without any interference with the market, too much wealth can settle at the top. I think the model of capitalism that I've seen in my lifetime makes it too easy for the rich to exploit the poor.

Edit: this is getting a bit off topic, though.

flstf

I've often wondered why other countries can do so much better for much less money per student than we do. It seems that the answer must not be as easy as spending more per student and/or paying teachers more. There must be some systemic problems with our society and/or school systems that have nothing to do with money. Maybe for some reason parents in other countries do a better job of insisting that their children study and do well in school.

Willravel

I honestly don't know for sure. I've got guesses, but I'm not ignorant to the fact that they're colored by my particular ideologies.

Polar

It is really quite simple:


As long as people who have never been slaves, demand reparations from those who have never owned slaves, there will continue to be racial tensions.



Millions of people, black , white and other have come to the U.S. after slavery was abolished. Tell me why either side from that group should pay or receive compensation?

So how do you decide who pays and who receives? You can't. Not if you are going to be honest.


Drop this silly idea.

Willravel

Silly black people thinking there are substantial social and economic inequalities, the cause of which (RACISM) can be traced back to slavery. Shame on them! Why can't they get over being repeatedly victimized by racism? What was it that the Gadsden flag say again? Please, tread on me? With a coiled up possum?

Polar

"Silly black people thinking there are substantial social and economic inequalities"



PREVIOUSLY OR CURRENTLY FOUND IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA:

- Black President of the United States
- Black Supreme Court Justice
- Black UN ambassador
- Two Black Secretaries of State of the United States
- Black Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
- Black Senators
- Black Congressmen
- Black Mayors of major cities
- Black Police chiefs of major cities
- Black Fire Chiefs of major cities
- Black CEOs of major companies such as American Express, Citigroup, Aetna, and Merrill Lynch
- Black Astronauts in NASA including a Shuttle commander
- Major Black Multi-Millionaire Maintream Entertainers such as Oprah Winfrey, Will Smith, Denzel Washington, etc.
- Black Millionaire Directors such as Spike Lee and John Singleton
- Major Black Multi-MillionaireAthletes Such as Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.
- Black coaches in the NBA, NFL, and MLB
- Majority of of Athletes found in NFL and NBA are Black
- Black Heads of Hospitals
- Black Presidents of Colleges
- Black Generals in the U.S. Military

This doesn't even begin to encompass the millions of Black doctors, lawyers, architects, business owners, college professors, scientists, airline pilots, policemen, firemen, nurses, being judged by "content of their character" instead of the color of their skin.


Why there is still racism in the US (from all sides to all sides) at what point do you think that juuuuuuuuuuuuust maybe this 'victimhood mentality' shouldn't carry much weight?



If you can provide one person who was actually a slave, I'm all for reparations. A huge check with lots of zeros.


But as I said, as long as people who have never been slaves, demand money from those who've never owned slaves, racism will continue.

Willravel

Poor people aren't trodden upon because some seek to help them. Black people aren't treated as unequal by some because some seek to help them. This "blame the people trying to help" bit really only makes it more obvious that you're not trying to help.

Baraka_Guru

Your list doesn't make invisible the fact that there is a disproportionate number of blacks affected by problems of poverty, making up a large proportion of the prison population, lack of access to quality education, and the less quantifiable realities of systemic racism across the board.

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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
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roachboy

one thing that the list does make visible, however, is a tangential contact with the majority of this thread.
which perhaps explains it's groundhog day character.

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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Polar

That list shows that MILLIONS of Blacks in this country made it with even less opportunities than are available right now.


The accusation of "ongoing racism" for the failure of so many currently in the system falls apart when you note how many people have made it (and are making) it on the same or less.


Many of those listed above came from environments even worse than those today are encountering.


It is a shame that all you have to do is cry "Racist!" to no longer have to live up to personal responsibility.

powerclown

Believe it or not most minorities aren't helpless children or mental retards. Most don't want your help, your guilt or your pity for them. Like you, they want to make it on their own.

Willravel

And how many poor people and black people did you interview before coming to this conclusion, pc?

mixedmedia

So black people, uniquely, have a problem with personal responsibility?

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

powerclown

I don't 'interview' people, I live and work alongside them. Surest way I know to get an honest answer from someone.

Willravel

powerclown: "Does it bug you when liberals want to give you better schools and scholarships?"
Poor black person: "It sure does. the last thing i want is for my kids to go to good schools and I'm really looking forward to paying every last cent for my kids' tuitions. Those stupid liberals and their empathy. When will they learn?"
powerclown: "Hahahah, I dunno! Wanna go watch Sean Hannity?"
Poor black person: "Of course! Black people love Sean Hannity!"

Derwood

Thousands of white people have been NFL football players thus all white people can be NFL football players.

powerclown

And here I thought it was those evil capitalist conservative millionaires who also contributed to higher education and public/private institutions.


Since when do liberals have disposable income anyway for crying out loud!

Willravel

If you want to donate, you're welcome to. This isn't about voluntary donations, this is about the responsibility of government to end the inequality that can be traced back generations.

Derwood

I'm curious what % of those "successful" black citizens mentioned in an earlier post came from middle/upper class families vs. poor families

Zenturian

Again we already paid reparations in the form of lost limbs and deaths of the soldiers that fought in the Civil War, and a raised quality of life to EVERYONE in America, not just whites.

Baraka_Guru

Those who were maimed and died in the Civil War had little to do with the treatment of blacks for the past 100 years.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

roachboy

yet another convenient erasure of reconstruction and it's legacy, substituting for it a version of the white man's burden.
how delightful.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

mixedmedia

I tried really, really hard to stay out of this conversation because it is nauseating. So I thought I would skip all the preliminaries and just ask the question that always begs to be answered but all concerned are too chicken shit to touch.

I want an explanation as to why the existence of urban ghettos and rural 'black neighborhoods' (they were normally called nigger towns when I was growing up in the '70s but, you know, that is totally irrelevant) is the result of a lack of 'personal responsibility' on the part of the black Americans who live in them and not the lingering results of reconstruction and racism? That's what these arguments always need to come down to so why do we stop pussyfooting around and cut to the chase.

What is it about black people (that is unique from white people) that keeps them so disproportionately numbered in ghettos and 'black neighborhoods'? Being that things are equal and all, you know. Surely there must be something, uh, special about black people that makes them choose to live there...what is it? Because if you believe that the perpetuation of these places is the result of a failure of the people who live in them to take 'personal responsibility' for their lives then you must have some equally simplistic views on the motivating factors that keep them there. Therefore, they should be simple to explain here. Somehow, no one ever seems to want to go there though. It's so odd. They think the snide road ends at 'personal responsibility' with no need to take it to its logical conclusion. Wow, how very conservative meme-like.

I beg to differ.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Zenturian

They have been told by well meaning people that they can't get out without government help. And they bought it. THey have been told over and over again that the deck is stacked against them and no matter what they do they can't win, without white man's help. And they bought it. Democrats, liberals, proponents of affirmitive action have effectivly neutered a race of Americans. That and the fact that 70% of them are born into poverty by absentee fathers doensn't help. They bought into a culture of failure and are wasting their time waiting for whitey to bail them out.

Willravel

No offense, but you've lost your grip with reality completely. I'll tell you what, walk up to the next black person you meet and share your opinion. Let them explain to you, from their own personal experience, exactly how wrong you are.

timalkin

Why don't you walk up to a white supremacist and share your opinion? Let him explain to you, from his own personal experience, exactly how wrong you are.



To answer the question, black culture is the problem.

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