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Originally Posted by Slims
I do not believe in an equal society, I believe in a fair society.
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Equal opportunities are all I'm talking about here.
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Originally Posted by Slims
No, I don't want to call a good, sustainable social program reparations...it is what a country with no history of slavery or discrimination should be doing and it has nothing to do with past wrongs, but on the current situation. We are not repaying anybody, we are investing in a stable society.
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Yes, but you have to admit that there has been an inequality for some time, an inequality that the government is at least partially responsible for. Correcting that inequality of opportunity would be a boon, and it might make up for the many years of there being inequality.
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Originally Posted by Slims
That is the definition of culture, and dudes are not making nearly that much money. I already agreed that we should try to fix the schools and have increased police presence, but you can't make a kid not join a gang, or sell drugs...his parents and neighborhood have to condemn that behavior and until they do that lifestyle will continue to persist. You are right that it is a vicious self-perpetuating cycle, but it requires at least the passive participation of the people in the neighborhood. If people called the police on drug dealers, reported murders, told the police who the gangs were, and controlled their children it would be far easier to prevent that behavior. If the drug-dealing lifestyle were as lucrative as you suggest, the dealers would not be living in poverty as the vast majority are.
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I'm not saying we can totally prevent kids from joining gangs or selling drugs, but I am saying by creating a society where everyone has the same opportunities is a step in making those options obsolete. Why would you want to sell crack if you could be an architect? Why would you want to be a pimp if you could manage your own software company? These were the options available to me in school, everyone should have them. I'm not talking about handouts, just allowing everyone to start the race on the same line.
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Originally Posted by Slims
I recently started seeing GD and SUR gang signs pop up on opposite sides of my neighborhood. I have called the police and spoken with them a couple times about the new gang activity, they have increased patrols in the area and spoken with local homeowners who had graffitti on their property to have it removed. I have removed some of those tags off of public property and I will not tolerate gang activity in my neighborhood. Ultimately I feel you only deserve what you are willing to defend, and I want my neighborhood to remain gang free (or as close as I can manage). If the people living in crime ridden neighborhoods took responsibility for the state of their own neighborhood there wouldn't be any problem with violence or gang or drug activity
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Some do, some can't. We can't judge the people that call the police only to find it takes the cops 45 minutes to get there.
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Originally Posted by Slims
2'nd Edit: And I have seen plenty of families in Afghanistan making far less than the poorest person in America still managing to raise respectful, hard working children who are respectful of both the home and the community. That isn't a money issue, it is a cultural issue.
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Some Afghanis are respectful, peaceful people. Some are militant extremists. Poverty doesn't affect everyone in the same way. Still, I don't know if I'm comfortable comparing Afghanistan to impoverished areas in the US. It strikes me as apples and oranges.
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Originally Posted by rahl
Sorry will but I do know what communism and socialism is. Please do not assume that you are smarter than I am.
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I didn't have to assume anything, you used the terms incorrectly. I didn't intend to come off as condescending as I did. For that I apologize. It's just that I've had the conversation about socialism and communism so many times in the past few years, I guess it was a knee-jerk response.
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Originally Posted by rahl
I commend you for doing the work that you do. I have no problem with trying to help out people who truly need it. But anyone who wants can better their own lives by working hard for it, not by seeking handouts because they are too lazy to work for it themselves.
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Poverty isn't generally a result of laziness. That's a bit of a myth. It's about several things; what situation you're born into, what school you go to... shoot a lot of it is simply chance. I work really hard for my salary, but I don't necessarily work any harder than someone working two jobs to make ends meet. I've done the minimum wage thing, and I have a healthy respect for someone working a crappy job.
When I was putting myself through college, I often had to hold down several minimum wage jobs at once. It was one of the most difficult times in my life, way more difficult than things are now making 4-5 times what I did then.
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Originally Posted by rahl
We don't live in a perfect world. If we did there would be no class differences. No poor people no rich people. We do however live in the real world, and in the real world there will always be these differences, there always have been. It's just nature. Even in the animal kingdom there are the strong and the week. The strong always survive.
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I don't think a perfect world would include no rich or poor, just maybe not so many people in poverty regardless of how hard they work. The strongest person I ever knew was my grandfather. He was career military, but for the first 30 years of his life he was dirt poor in a big way. His strength and effort had nothing to do with his income.
I'm pretty sure you're familiar with arise/train-wreck Paris Hilton. She's the worst kind of what you might call "weak". She makes more money in a year than most people make in a lifetime. Why? Chance. It's chance we should seek to compensate for. Chance likely shares a large part of the responsibility for the large amount of black and latino prisoners. Had they been born white, they'd not likely be in prison, statistically. I'm not suggesting an end to personal responsibility, but can you really hold someone responsible for something that's a matter of pure chance?
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Originally Posted by rahl
Everyone wants to make excuses for their own failings in life and it's bullshit. If you had a tough childhood or grew up in a tough area, thats no excuse to turn to a life of crime. You have the option to leave that bad area, and make a better life for yourself.
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Not always. Some have the option, some don't. It's important to recognize that some people are either poor or criminals because of factors outside of their control. We can't be absolutist about it.
---------- Post added at 09:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:46 PM ----------
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Originally Posted by timalkin
Why don't all the bleeding heart types create a fund to do all of these great things?
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We do, but it's not enough. Last year I donated quite a bit to scholarship funds. I donated to the NAACP a few years back, actually. It's not enough because a lot of hard working people are unwilling or unable to take responsibility for their society. You reap the rewards of my donations to scholarships via a more stable society, but you refuse to admit it.