02-09-2009, 11:48 PM | #82 (permalink) | |
Lennonite Priest
Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA
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-----Added 10/2/2009 at 02 : 50 : 25----- ???????sdrawkcab tuo gnimoc ereh epyt I gnihtyreve si yhW -----Added 10/2/2009 at 03 : 02 : 54----- hmmm must have been a bug. I work in the hood, the only people driving cars more than probably $10K are known drug dealers in the neighborhood. Even the Yuppies (if still called that) who own because taxes are low and housing was cheap, drive cheap cars because they know they will be stolen or ransacked. So, I really would like to know how people in section 8 housing or wityh minimum wage jobs own houses worth $50K and drive $75K cars. Maybe we need to check welfare reform or enforce the laws. I know my grandma lives in subsidized housing and rent is 1/3 of her income, plus interest from the bank, plus any property of value like a car or so on. If she shows a huge withdrawal (for her account) in a one years time they question her as to why. (She helped me at times during my addiction and helped me buy my pizza place) When she told them it was for a relative, they gave her credit for a certain amount but still charged her that year as though the rest was accruing interest. That was between 1994 and when she had given it all away to my mom, sister and I. Yet, in the same elderly complex people would drive brand new Volvos and so on and pay very little, they would brag at card night on Mondays. Plus, some of the people on disability would be under 65 and have large screen tvs, very nice cars and so on. Fraud is fraud no matter what class or level it comes from. -----Added 10/2/2009 at 03 : 04 : 39----- weird now posts are all screwy and out of order......
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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" Last edited by pan6467; 02-10-2009 at 12:04 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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02-10-2009, 02:59 AM | #83 (permalink) | |||
Living in a Warmer Insanity
Super Moderator
Location: Yucatan, Mexico
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Ever think maybe there's a less evil explanation? I don't have any experience working with people in large urban areas but I do in rural Oregon. There it's not all that uncommon for people to live in a POS single wide trailer worth about 8-10K and drive a 35-40K truck. Complete with lift kit, sound system and custom rims. Maybe, just maybe, not all people have the same priorities when it comes to housing and the vehicles they own.
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I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club |
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02-10-2009, 03:34 AM | #84 (permalink) |
Psycho
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You people crack me up. If a republican uses fear tactics to borrow and spend it's the fuckin' end of society as we know it but if a socialist uses those fear tactics packaged differently to pass a 1 trillion dollar borrow and spend bill it's heavenly bliss. What the fuck? I guarantee if this was happening 6 months ago 90% of the people in favor of this bill now would be shitting their pants over this massive spending bill. On that note I think if everyone looked at things objectively instead of through glasses shaded either red or blue we might actually come up with something that will help all Americans instead of this bullshit pass it fast and spend, spend, spend and spend some more as fast as we can. If this is the best we can do then we are in deep shit. Unfortunately both sides are clinging to their pet projects rather than doing what's best for America. The Republicans are clinging to those tax cuts and the Democrats are clinging to expanded government meanwhile the middle class gets pinched.
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"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." Thomas Jefferson |
02-10-2009, 04:38 AM | #85 (permalink) | |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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And I think more people are after the Republicans (who aren't fascists, btw) about their history of war measures than they'd be after them about stimulus packages if they were still in power.
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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
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02-10-2009, 04:42 AM | #86 (permalink) | |
Darth Papa
Location: Yonder
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How can spending TRILLIONS to stabilize Iraq be right and spending BILLIONS to stabilize America be wrong? Am I taking crazy pills? |
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02-10-2009, 07:10 AM | #90 (permalink) | |
Psycho
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"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." Thomas Jefferson |
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02-10-2009, 07:18 AM | #91 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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A proposal that has a greater likelihood of success than the current Senate bill: with 60% spending/40% tax cuts...most of it targeted and allocated relatively quickly.How slowly should we proceed with job loss at 500,000/month? My choice would be even more spending but Obama is committed to reaching across the aisle with the inclusion of that 40% in tax relief. I dont know anyone who likes any of the options and most objective observers understand that they are no guarantees. -----Added 10/2/2009 at 10 : 29 : 07----- I'm waiting for a better proposal from the Republicans who voted NO. What I see instead is a strategy to dig in their heals, gamble that the program fails and then use that failure as the campaign issue in 2010.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 02-10-2009 at 07:34 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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02-10-2009, 07:32 AM | #92 (permalink) | |
Crazy, indeed
Location: the ether
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2- It is not a scare tactic when the economy really is that bad. In terms of jobs lost so far, this recession is already as bad as any recession weve had since the great depression. And if february is anything like january, this will officially become the worst recession since the great depression. |
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02-10-2009, 07:41 AM | #93 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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Fear mongering with bogus charges of socialism is hardly a constructive proposal or solution.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire |
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02-10-2009, 07:50 AM | #95 (permalink) |
Location: Washington DC
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Is it just me who thinks those opposed to this bill are playing partisan politics...
ace suggesting that we're just in your average cyclical recession that the free market can "fix" if left alone, with which very few economists across the ideological spectrum agree....rather than offering viable solutions. I dont think its "too heated" to raise such a question.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 02-10-2009 at 07:53 AM.. |
02-10-2009, 08:04 AM | #96 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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you've obviously mistaken me for someone who approved of bush and his spending
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
02-10-2009, 08:55 AM | #98 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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The US economy has been through 15 or 16 recessions or depressions give or take depending on a few factors. the US economy recovered from each without massive spending in each prior to 1929. The depression in 1929 was made worse by government incompetence and the New Deal by FDR (massive spending programs) did nothing to stimulate the economy. WWII was the stimulus that got the recovery going. Also, your assumption that I am wrong about my position on government "stimulus" spending is based on a failure to look at the costs of government spending. You ignore the impact of deficit spending, inflation and taxation. In my analysis, I don't.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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02-10-2009, 09:11 AM | #100 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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what analysis, ace? you don't offer anything even remotely like an analysis. you bite editorials from investor's business daily that resonate with your preconceptions. that's not research, and the results are not analysis.
and i can tell you that your claim to be attentive to history is ridiculous. i've seen nothing from you that remotely approaches a demonstration of your claim that this is just a routine blip in the normal cycles of capitalism---it flies in the face of the empirical world---so is operates in a space between the counter-intuitive and the zany. so put up or shut up, ace. show your research and maybe we can talk about that.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
02-10-2009, 09:21 AM | #101 (permalink) | |
Crazy, indeed
Location: the ether
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Well, besides not being supported by evidence (the evidence that is there suggests that New Deal programs weren't as big as claimed, and did help), there is the fact that from an economic perspective WWII was nothing more than government stimulus. Besides, government "stimulus" wasn't invented in 1929. The US did plenty of it beforehand. Just look at the history of American railroads. Heck, most of the early American corporations were public-private corporations created to build canals, railroads and so on. |
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02-10-2009, 09:39 AM | #102 (permalink) | ||||||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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The Panic of 1893 is similar to this recession in some ways: Quote:
I think there are lessons that are to be learned. One lesson is Quote:
-----Added 10/2/2009 at 12 : 43 : 24----- I often share my conclusions with you folks. I don't have much interest in getting too detailed here because of the lack of serious discourse. I mostly like to do short "hit and run" type posts. If we ever wanted to seriously discuss an issue, I am game. What's your excuse? -----Added 10/2/2009 at 12 : 50 : 11----- Quote:
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I suppose some would give all the credit to government since the government passed legislation that allowed the industry to grow. I guess that's fair.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." Last edited by aceventura3; 02-10-2009 at 09:50 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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02-10-2009, 10:10 AM | #103 (permalink) | |
Crazy, indeed
Location: the ether
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Do you know how the US got out of the 1893 recession? I could point you to academic articles, but wikipedia has it right there: a gold rush. Unless you think a gold rush is coming soon, then we're in for a long depression. Besides, the point is not that only governments can fix recessions, but that only government action can speed up their recovery. Oh, and I guess you didnt read the entries for the other recessions, huh? And I would love to see you back your claims. Even conservatives like Ben Bernanke and Milton Friedman blame a failure to properly stimulate the economy as the cause of the great depression. Of course, they dont think very highly of expansionary fiscal policy (though Bernanke has changed his tune) but they think what transformed a recession into a depression was a monetary policy that wasnt expansive enough. Well, right now we are at 0% interest rate. There is nothing more that monetary policy can do. And we are still going downhill, fast. There is no inherent value on constant government surpluses. In fact, they'd be a bad thing, taking money away from the economy. Governments should also save for a rainy day and spend when that rainy day gets here. Unfortunately, Bush didnt save anything. In fact, he went on the greatest debt expansion during an economic recovery in history, which in turn only fed the bubble. Now, however, is not the time to turn off the faucets. Instead, it is time to really spend (but spend smart) and hope that once the recovery gets going Obama and congress are smart enough to become fiscally conservative. Oh, and you are reading wikipedia wrong. Most railroads were privately built, but were funded with municipal bonds and supported via added legislation. Most of the early railroad company were chartered by legislation, were partially owned by the municipal or state government that chartered it, and were exempted of taxes. |
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02-10-2009, 10:20 AM | #104 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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you know, ace, this kind of dilletante nonsense doesn't help your case, either in particular or in general.
for a stodgy old, but comprehensive, account of 1893, have a look at this: # Unemployment, Unrest, and Relief in the United States during the Depression of 1893-97 # Samuel Rezneck # The Journal of Political Economy, Vol. 61, No. 4 (Aug., 1953), pp. 324-345 if you have access to jstor, it's there. if you dont, email me and i can send you a copy. i'll save it, just in case. basically, dippin's right. the reason the gold rush was such a big deal had to do with the monetary system of the time, which was fundamentally different than it is now. as is most everything else. the main parallel between then and now has to do with the difficulty the american state has in formulating coherent responses to depression. but that's it. there's no there there, ace.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
02-10-2009, 10:42 AM | #105 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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didnt the government use (dk would probably say abused) the power of eminent domain to the benefit of private railroads and their stockholders?
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire |
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02-10-2009, 04:16 PM | #107 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Detroit, MI
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I used to live next door to a guy who owned a (one) corner pizza joint. This was in a middle class neighborhood where most of the houses were one story built in the 50s, so most were around $150k. While everyone else in the neighboorhood drove mostly american and swedish midsize beaters, this guy drove a new Porsche 997 Carrera every year, his wife had a new Chevy Suburban Family Transportation Road Behemoth, they had a garage-full of Harley Davidson motorcycles, a 25' fishing boat that he parked on his front lawn (lowering property values imo), added an entire second story to his house (raising property values back up a little) and moved his wife's entire extended family from Mexico into his house. This is in Detroit, not Houston. Oh, the glorious smell of bbq'd chorizo. I was saddened when they moved away. Point being: while his pizzas were good, they weren't that good. |
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02-11-2009, 04:35 AM | #110 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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as touching as these quaint tales have been powerclown, how about we move on to things that might be actually relevant?
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
02-11-2009, 04:44 AM | #111 (permalink) | |
Darth Papa
Location: Yonder
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We get into serious trouble when we start painting the world the color our perceptions provide, though. You find yourself holding a hammer and surrounded by nails, and forget that the hammer AND the nails are a figment of your imagination. Not that, as human beings, we can avoid doing that to some extent, but sometimes we can wake up and notice we're doing it, you know? |
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02-11-2009, 07:12 AM | #112 (permalink) | ||
Location: Washington DC
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The wing nuts are bringing out all the big guns to spread the word about Obama's dangerous economic stimulus package.
Limbaugh....it is a bill to socialize medicine and allow the government taking over your life! Quote:
That "new bureaucracy" that will take over your life, the National Coordinator of Health Information Technology, already exists. It was created by Bush. Mike Huckabee (and Pat Robertson)...it is anti-religion! Quote:
The standard language in the bill simply blocks spending for on-campus buildings that are used primarily for religion (like a chapel, for example). This same language has been part of education spending bills for 46 years. It's just the law, and it's never been controversial. March on, wing nuts! Keep throwing crap and see what sticks! Continue to be part of the problem rather than contribute to a solution!
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 02-11-2009 at 07:25 AM.. |
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02-11-2009, 07:42 AM | #113 (permalink) | |
Tone.
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The thing that scares the hell out of the right wingers right now is that, unlike Clinton, Obama doesn't seem to be one to fold to the pressure of the "conservative" (I will forever enclose that word in quotes, because they're anything but) way of doing business. If he succeeds, they're terrified that people will wake up and understand that the neo-con economic model of "give everything to the rich and things will be perfect!" is exactly that - a con. They don't realize that this has already happened. |
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02-11-2009, 08:09 AM | #114 (permalink) | |||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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-----Added 11/2/2009 at 11 : 15 : 09----- Quote:
OBama's plan today is basically; blame Bush, spend a trillion dollars, and "hope" everything works out. They even admit they don't know when and if their plan will work, they just know they have to do something. -----Added 11/2/2009 at 11 : 20 : 21----- Quote:
Why do you continually set up straw-men arguments?
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." Last edited by aceventura3; 02-11-2009 at 08:22 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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02-11-2009, 08:36 AM | #115 (permalink) |
Crazy, indeed
Location: the ether
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The fact that you insist on focusing solely on 1893, the fact that you somehow fail to understand the point of how that recession was ended by a gold rush, and the fact that you think my point has anything to do with government intervention ending that recession all point to the fruitlessness of continuing this discussion with you.
Because if you think that a recession that was cut short by an exogenous event provides the example of how to act, then we have nothing to do except pray for a big giant comet made of diamonds to fall out of the sky. There is a reason why every responsible conservative economist supports fiscal stimulus, even if they disagree about the make up of the fiscal stimulus. They might support fiscal stimulus mostly through tax cuts, but even they support these tax coming from deficit spending. Last edited by dippin; 02-11-2009 at 09:08 AM.. |
02-11-2009, 08:42 AM | #116 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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deus ex machina is not an unreasonable expectation for folk who believe that markets are guided by an "invisible hand"---the distance between adam-smith metaphysics and a god is pretty small. so personally, i think ace referenced 1893 mostly because it is a reassuring parable concerning the past, which is reassuring in the way most such are, in that by the time the story was written, the outcomes were already in place.
contingency is scary. the present is scary. chances have to be taken without any assurance that elements x y or z will produce the desired outcomes. most of what i read from ace is conditioned by an aversion to the present, and this not at the level of not supporting obama, but more at the level of not being able to cope with the fact of contingency, or open-endedness. it's a central appeal of most metaphysics, this emptying out of the present, replacing it with a transcendent frame that contains it yadda yadda yadda.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
02-12-2009, 11:32 AM | #117 (permalink) | ||||||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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Business inventories dropped in December, meaning adjustments are filtering through the system. Quote:
Auto manufacturers are saying they are seeing sales stabalize. Quote:
But, who am I to point these little tidbits of information out. Our President sees things getting a lot worse, and if not for spending close to a trillion dollars, the world as we know it will come to an end and we will forever be in a shrinking economy. Quote:
Also, to be clear my position is not that the government should not spend money. In some cases there is a need for money to be spent by the government. The problem I have is with the pretense that the "stimulus bill" is mostly designed to spur economic growth, that is simply not true. The bill is mostly a spending bill. Obama's goal is to "save or create 4 million jobs", and to do it he wants to spend $800 billion. Doing the math that is $200,000 per job. If I had $800 billion could could promise a lot more than 4 million jobs. If you got a 10% annual return on $800 billion you could create 1.6 million jobs paying $50,000 per year on that 10% return alone. then if you actually have those people do something productive you could apply that Keynesian multiplier your favorite economist love so much.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." Last edited by aceventura3; 02-12-2009 at 11:36 AM.. |
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02-12-2009, 12:00 PM | #118 (permalink) |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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But on an annual basis, these sales are down nearly 10% compared to January 2008. And we should mention that much of this 1% increase is due to the New Year's deep discounting we've seen as a result of the recession and the weak holiday sales. And this is after a 3% drop in December. I'd like to see the retail sector's profit reports.
BBC NEWS | Business | US retail sales unexpectedly rise U.S. retail sales revive - International Herald Tribune Discounting Contributes To Unexpected Increase In January Retail Sales
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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot Last edited by Baraka_Guru; 02-12-2009 at 12:05 PM.. |
02-12-2009, 12:16 PM | #119 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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Thanks. I was feeling good all day, planning on avoiding any negative news. Are you working in the Obama administration?
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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02-12-2009, 12:22 PM | #120 (permalink) |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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No, they wouldn't have me because I'm a socialist.
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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot Last edited by Baraka_Guru; 02-12-2009 at 12:24 PM.. |
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obama, performance |
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