02-15-2009, 12:15 PM | #162 (permalink) |
Nothing
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Wow.
Those 'X' were not enough pure in their hearts and deeds to be excused their failings... The only pure X are the X who agree with me 100%, nothing else counts.
__________________
"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}-- |
02-15-2009, 12:20 PM | #163 (permalink) |
Location: Washington DC
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I think we need a lighter moment.
Live...its the Republican stimulus response http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Li...-open/1018742/
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 02-15-2009 at 12:22 PM.. |
02-15-2009, 03:52 PM | #164 (permalink) | |
Walking is Still Honest
Location: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
And that's not even including a discussion of how many failings were due to poor implementation rather than flawed objectives.
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I wonder if we're stuck in Rome. |
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02-15-2009, 04:00 PM | #165 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: In the land of ice and snow.
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Quote:
If Obama fails, and we spin further into an economic crevasse (as Rush Limbaugh and various folk of his persuasion seem to hope), then we can take comfort in knowing that Obama only failed out of a lack of commitment to liberal socialism... |
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02-15-2009, 05:38 PM | #167 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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i can understand why conservatives would want to disassociate themselves from the glorious legacy of the bush administration, but it seems more than a little--o i dunno---counterfactual.
whatever....conservative brand triage is not my problem. more generally, though, i wonder if this thread's reached the point of diminishing returns.
__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
02-15-2009, 06:01 PM | #168 (permalink) |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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Well, we're going to have to give Obama more time. It hasn't even been a month.
__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
02-15-2009, 10:25 PM | #169 (permalink) | |
Tone.
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Quote:
That said, they /have/ taken over the Republican party and thus far, the "true Republicans" aren't doing anything about it. So. . . -shrug- If the shoe fits. . . |
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02-16-2009, 12:24 AM | #170 (permalink) |
Lennonite Priest
Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA
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I do find it funny in a very sad way that those who speak out against Obama and/or the "stimulus" package are being branded and cajoled, meanwhile Bush was called "shrub" from day one and attacked mercilessly the whole f'n time. I was one who did this.
While I do wish Obama the best and seriously doubt the Dems will allow him to fail, they will do whatever they possibly can to make his term successful, I find it less than heartening and more partisan politics when the very people who attacked Bush from day one are not allowing the same to be done to Obama. Is Obama so weak and fragile that people cannot speak out against him? What happened to the Democrat cry when they were attacking Bush "it's patriotic to criticize the president and we have a right to."? We do, even Republicans have that right. So what if someone wants to criticize Obama? Last time I checked they had every right to. They do not need to be told "wait, give him time..." or called names, cajoled or not listened to. Just as those of us who criticized Bush had the same right. I so hoped when the Dems won they would show more grace and class than what they are in this case. But alas, this shows me that they are as guilty as the neo-cons in that they don't give a damn about the people, their rights or the country, all they care about is power and pushing through their agenda. So much for "change" and truly wanting a better America, eh guys?
__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" |
02-16-2009, 04:09 AM | #171 (permalink) |
Living in a Warmer Insanity
Super Moderator
Location: Yucatan, Mexico
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Seems to me Obama has done more to include the GOP in the last few weeks then Bush did in his entire eight years. The fact that they've locked arms and shouted "no way, no how" doesn't mean he hasn't tried to get them involved. The GOP is really putting itself in a great position. If the stimulus fails they can say "I told you so." Hell many are publicly stating they hope it does fail. Great! The country's in a economic crisis and they're hoping for failure. Wouldn't want their ideas to turn out to be wrong. I mean tax cuts have really stimulated the economy so far, let's keep adding more. If it succeeds they can claim it did so only slowly and only because they held out and got in some minor points they wanted. Hell, I don't think anyone thinks it's going to succeed quickly. The GOP's main idea seems to be cut taxes and spending. Well, now it's to cut spending, when they had utter and complete control spending was a freaking brilliant idea. Not spending in the USA per se, but spending in Iraq that was always a good idea. How much money has been spent there? How many schools have we (at least tried) to build? Bush's legacy became so tied to Iraq- success at any cost became the plan, with the US tax payers footing the bill. The employment rate is in a nose dive, housing prices have tanked and continue down, the major stock indexes have gone south so far many have lost nearly 50% of their saving and retirement plans. Personally I'd like to start building new schools in the US. But the stimulus bill was trimmed of 14B for new school construction because the Dems refused to even try to be bi-partisan. Oh, wait that was what the GOP wanted.
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I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club Last edited by Tully Mars; 02-16-2009 at 05:10 AM.. |
02-16-2009, 06:02 AM | #172 (permalink) | |
Darth Papa
Location: Yonder
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Quote:
It's also what Obama tried to have happen on the Stimulus bill, and was roundly rebuffed by the Republicans. I think he learned a lesson on that--he said about it, roughly, "I'm an optimist, but I'm not a sap." Guy's got the political will and the public mandate to take action, and I think those who would oppose it on flat political grounds will be utterly marginalized and irrelevant, no matter how histrionic Fox News gets about it. |
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02-16-2009, 06:19 AM | #173 (permalink) |
Addict
Location: Cottage Grove, Wisconsin
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What is needed is the return of confidence and a capital market through which credit will flow in the thousand rills with its result of employment and increased prices. That confidence will be only destroyed by action in these directions. These channels will continue clogged by fears if we continue attempts to issue large amounts of Government bonds for purposes of non-productive works.
Such a program as these huge Federal loans for “public works” is a fearful price to pay in putting a few thousand men temporarily at work and dismissing many more thousands of others from their present employment. There is vivid proof of this since these proposals of public works financed by Government bonds were seriously advanced a few days ago. Since then United States Government bonds have shown marked weakness on the mere threat. And it is followed at once by curtailment of the ability of states, municipalities and industry to issue bonds and thus a curtailment of activities which translate themselves into decreased employment. It will serve no good purpose and will fool no one to try to cover appearances by resorting to a so-called “extraordinary budget.” That device is well known. It brought the governments of certain foreign countries to the brink of financial disaster. It means a breach of faith to holders of all Government securities, an unsound financial program and a severe blow to returning confidence and further contraction of economic activities in the country. What you want and what I want is to restore normal employment. I am confident that if the program I have proposed to the Congress is expeditiously completed and we have the cooperation of the whole community, we will attain the objective for which we have been searching so long. Yours faithfully, Herbert Hoover |
02-16-2009, 08:13 AM | #174 (permalink) | |||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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Quote:
I did not say it was his fault, however, there has been a clear acceleration in job loss since his election. In my opinion Obama's rhetoric may play a role. Since I shared my opinion on this I have noticed more and more are picking up on the possible impact and errors in Obama's words. Here is an article in today's WSJ: Quote:
I think a President can have an impact on behavior through his words. -----Added 16/2/2009 at 11 : 18 : 57----- Quote:
Small business owners are not laughing today, and won't be anytime soon.
__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." Last edited by aceventura3; 02-16-2009 at 08:18 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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02-16-2009, 08:22 AM | #175 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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what the right is arguing is a return to systematic denial of reality.
if "confidence" in markets can be collapsed into "confidence" that you look like a movie star today so head out there into the world and be perky, then this brilliant piece of logic follows: if the latter is lying to yourself on a small scale, then the former is lying to yourself on a big scale. so the important "idea" that the right is floating amounts to: lie to us so we can feel better. as if that was not stupid enough, they have the audacity to tack on these fatuous claims of "fearmongering"---that obama is "fearmongering"----this from the same people who supported the bush people's "war on terror." how on earth do they expect anyone to take this seriously? what kind of degenerate condition is conservativeland in these days? i think they'd be better off tearing it down rather than trying to rebuild on top of ruins.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
02-16-2009, 08:38 AM | #176 (permalink) |
Addict
Location: Cottage Grove, Wisconsin
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Laissez faillir = Andrew Mellon's hugely successful response to the crash of 1929.
Mellon's tuff-luv leadership saved the country from depression. Don't let the Dems scare you, everything is OK = Herbert Hoover's take. People were so enthusiastic about Hoover's response to the crisis that they showered him with fruit and vegetables on the campaign trail in 1932. And they named everything from blankets to boxcars after him! If it had not been for fear-mongering by FDR, groovy Hoovy probably would have won by a landslide. |
02-16-2009, 08:46 AM | #177 (permalink) |
Who You Crappin?
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
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I'll take all the "pet projects" that spend money domestically over all the money being sent overseas right now. Cutting school construction spending in half in this bill while spending millions to build schools in Iraq makes zero sense to me.
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02-16-2009, 09:31 AM | #178 (permalink) | |
Crazy, indeed
Location: the ether
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Quote:
Especially since the way unemployment is calculated, and the time it takes for someone to be fired, mean that a lot of what went on on the november figure actually took place in october. |
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02-16-2009, 03:44 PM | #179 (permalink) | ||
Location: Washington DC
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Quote:
The US Chamber of Commerce (more than 96% of U.S. Chamber members are small businesses with 100 employees or fewer) while noting that the bill is not perfect, supports it. Quote:
The National Association of Manufactures supports the bill as well....as does the Business Roundtable. Reasonable people dont expect perfection....they expect an honest and sincere effort to address a national problem.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 02-16-2009 at 03:57 PM.. |
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02-16-2009, 04:18 PM | #180 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: In the land of ice and snow.
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I do appreciate the Governor of my state, going out of his way to criticize the stimulus bill on national television, and then deciding that despite all the "pork", and the fact that the bill isn't going to work because it doesn't cut enough taxes, he's going to go ahead and take the money on behalf of all Minnesotans to help out with our budget deficit.
What a douchebag. |
02-16-2009, 04:20 PM | #181 (permalink) |
Getting it.
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
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There isn't going to be an easy way out of this economic mess. Just think of the huge public works initiative called WWII whereby the government spent its way out of the last depression.
There is no magic solution. It is going to take time, money and everyone changing their attitudes on saving, spending and perceived ideas of wealth (and their entitlement to it) to get out of this.
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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke |
02-16-2009, 05:51 PM | #183 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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that's the main issue, really--that this is a very large-scale multi-variate crisis.
folk seem to want a single magic bullet, a simple solution because they're used to being told that capitalism is a single simple machine that operates on the basis of a single type of simple motivation. this has the effect of reducing a complex social system to a matter of lots of individuals wishing the same thing at the same time. that's infantile--what they call magical thinking. fact is that there are systemic changes that have to happen and that it is not at all clear that the administration has it's collective head (if you like) around what exactly those changes should be. and they're being covered by a media apparatus with the attention span of a gnat, with the memory of a gnat which is in no way able in its present form to assemble longer trajectories of activity into a coherent narrative--everything that's real in television land is happening now and reality as a whole is little more than a sequence of disconnected now now now points that unfold against a context that is entirely naturalized. this is a real fucking problem because it is not obvious how systemic change can possibly be presented as such unless you can talk about the rationale behind that change in the space of a series of disconnected now now now points. such is the problem with the ideological relay apparatus and one of the central reasons why, no matter what the right says, the medium is in itself conservative--the naturalizing of context is conservative--the disconnecting of trajectories into sequences of instants plays to an ideology that operates on the same assumptions (context=nature, action-instantanious decision such that the state is reduced to the figure of the leader and history to individual memory and action to individual attention spans).... so not only is there a problem of working out what policy directions make sense given an actual analysis of the empirical state of the economy (not something that has mattered terribly to the neoliberal set, which understood basic statistical indices as an extension of ideology) but also how to present those directions to a media apparatus that atomizes everything it touches. you can't blame the administration for being circumspect. and i am not entirely a fan of the administration so far, simply because i don't think they're going far enough fast enough in leaving consigning neoliberalism to the ash-heap of history. but i have a sense of the constraints at play. this is difficult--and it is so without even starting to consider the actual socio-economic environment that neoliberalism has left behind in the united states. i shudder to think of what's there once the dreamscapes neoliberals preferred to traffic in are stripped away. you should too.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 02-16-2009 at 06:06 PM.. |
02-16-2009, 11:21 PM | #184 (permalink) | |||
Tone.
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Quote:
Quote:
The economy tanked 2 months before his election. Of course job losses are going to accelerate after the economy tanks. What exactly did you think would normally happen when the economy crashes and burns? Unemployment would drop to 0? Quote:
This. |
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02-16-2009, 11:51 PM | #185 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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Quote:
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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02-17-2009, 03:24 AM | #186 (permalink) |
Junkie
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Question: is there any hotlist where I can see a list of actions Obama has taken? It's been rather difficult to find a simple listing of actions he's done to the news-uninformed like myself at college >.< (I'm much better about it at home, I swear). I'm just curious as to what he's done. Please and thanks!
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02-17-2009, 08:19 AM | #187 (permalink) | |||||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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One of the inputs in your decision is going to be subjective. A president can influence this subjective component. Stop the pretense, that a President can not have an impact on employment. Stop the pretense that anyone is arguing that is the only factor. Quote:
In this situation what is Obama doing? What is the value? Can you be honest about it? Quote:
Quote:
-----Added 17/2/2009 at 11 : 28 : 08----- Quote:
But on the other hand there has been the TARP legislation (Democratic Party legislation), designed to do something. There has been the Auto industry bailout (Democratic Part legislation. And there has been the Bailout (Democratic Party legislation). Not to mention the numerous hearings and investigation (Democratic Party control) We have people actively trying to fix things, spending billions and the net result has been an acceleration in job loss. The only quarter of negative GDP growth was the fourth quarter. If my theory is wrong what is yours?
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." Last edited by aceventura3; 02-17-2009 at 08:28 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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02-17-2009, 08:50 AM | #188 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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the only place where we agree, ace, is that there is not enough of a plan in the "stimulus package" and in the announcements concerning the banking sector.
we agree on that statement alone, but from entirely opposed positions. i think obama has to break harder and faster with the outmoded logic of neoliberalism and formulate a clearer vision of exactly what the state is now going to do, how it is going to go about it, how the process is going to be benchmarked, etc. and i think that the time is passing during which it makes any sense to waste time thinking and speaking in neoliberal terms--simply because those terms tend to preclude exactly the directions the administration needs to move in, and quickly. maybe that explains the growing impatience in my posts with respect to the american right--i have never been a fan--but i see it now as not only incoherent but also ineffectual--and this at a point where the shit that's hitting the fan is such that there's no more time to waste on incoherence and ineffectualness.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
02-17-2009, 10:53 AM | #189 (permalink) |
Tone.
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i'll agree that Obama is likely to be a 1 term president. Americans are by and large conditioned to expect a happy ending within 30 minutes. . . 2 hours tops, if they're watching a movie. They're gonna be mad that Obama can't fix things in 4 years, even though it took over 30 years to break it to this degree.
That said, I find it . . Cute. . that the republicans, who not only failed to grow the economy, but who caused it to implode, have the chutzpah to bitch about Obama's plan. Your plan failed. Spectacularly. You clearly don't know what you're doing, so why not sit down, shut up, and let someone else have a go? |
02-17-2009, 11:13 AM | #190 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: In the land of ice and snow.
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02-17-2009, 11:41 AM | #191 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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Second, government actions during a normal recession can make the recession worse or last longer. I think this is the case we have now and I think the rhetoric from the President is not helping and most likely is having a negative impact. Third, I know what has an impact on me and my business. Government regulation, taxation, along with the threats of more taxation and regulation has an impact on the decisions I make. Again, if I am the only one, there is no concern - if I am one of millions or ten's of millions of small business owners, it should be a concern for you and the President.
__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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02-17-2009, 12:06 PM | #192 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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Quote:
__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 02-17-2009 at 12:08 PM.. |
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02-17-2009, 09:21 PM | #193 (permalink) | |
Lennonite Priest
Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA
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Quote:
__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" |
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02-17-2009, 09:38 PM | #194 (permalink) |
Tone.
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Yeah, Pan, that's the typical democratic response, while the typical republican response is to rub the Dem's faces in everything they said (or that the Republicans made up that they said) back to the dawn of time. And in general, the republicans win elections because of it. Only after the Republicans have been in office for awhile and have screwed everything up royally do people get pissed enough to elect a democrat.
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02-18-2009, 04:20 AM | #195 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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Quote:
When you walk away from lies and misrepresentations that are not just honest differences of opinion, you enable them to be perpetuated. One only need look at the Obama's Seven Broken Campaign Promises thread. A right wing attack page, completely false or at the very least, a gross misrepresentation of the facts, makes its way here (and probably dozens of political discussion boards) with the hope of the person who created it initially of spreading it further. Do you believe the best response is to ignore it and walk away? I dont see how you separate the hypocrisy from the other bullshit. How does being "more gracious" contribute to honest discourse?
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 02-18-2009 at 04:26 AM.. |
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02-18-2009, 11:52 AM | #196 (permalink) | |||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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Quote:
Also, here are comments from an ad endorsed by some of those "economists" that Obama referenced: Quote:
http://www.cato.org/special/stimulus...o_stimulus.pdf -----Added 18/2/2009 at 02 : 57 : 38----- Quote:
Was the Stimulus legislation bill read by members of Congress before they voted for it? Did Obama read the legislation before he signed it? Who wrote most of the legislation? Were lobbyist involved in writing some of the legislation? If so, how much? Did Obama violate any of his campaign promises as this legislation was drafted and passed?
__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." Last edited by aceventura3; 02-18-2009 at 11:57 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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02-18-2009, 11:58 AM | #197 (permalink) | |
Tone.
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Quote:
As long as we're rewriting history, why not do it in more than just economic areas? |
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02-18-2009, 12:05 PM | #198 (permalink) |
Banned
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Lets talk about misrespresentations. When Shakran says that he was informed that he was:
"a bad and immoral person who wants our troops to die because I criticize the President" I would like to know who told him that, and what he said that elicited that reaction. Certainly it wasn't the quote that had no context posted by DC_dux, from some noname congresswoman in 2007 or 8 (notice whatever she was reacting to wasn't included). If you are a liberal who engages in anything close to the behaviors I had referenced earlier, I'll go one step further - not only are you a bad and immoral person who wants our troops (and former president) to die, you are a rabid ideological lunatic. So if you're gonna suggest that republicans have said that it is unpatriotic (or slightly more dramatic "a bad and immoral person") to simply criticize the president......prove it. Don't misrepresent reaction to your everyday juvenile liberal behavior as some sort of overall republican conspiracy to quiet the opposition. I'm gonna say you're just playing the victim...agian. |
02-18-2009, 12:16 PM | #199 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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matthew, i really don't see the utility of these posts of yours. your claim that conservatives did not claim that criticism of the bush administration was treasonous is simply false...think about 2003 for example, in the early phases of the iraq debacle.
the claim that conservatives have not argued that criticism of the office of the president is treasonous is so vague as to be meaningless in any event--we all know from long experience that when a republican is in office, there's one set of standards, but when a democrat is in office, there's an entirely different set of standards. on this, of late, the right has been true to form. there's been clips that refute your claims posted by dc above. there's been more than ample information posted elsewhere that refutes your claim. so i don't see you have a leg to stand on as a point of fact. but then there's the slightly broader question of what exactly you're hoping to accomplish by sticking with this line of argumentation, even if you put aside the fact that it's already been shown repeatedly to be false.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
02-18-2009, 12:21 PM | #200 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: In the land of ice and snow.
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Matthew, aren't you the same guy who previously claimed that people who act overtly racist are just liberals trying to make conservatives look bad? Because if you are that same guy, I'm impressed by how quickly you've transitioned into the kind of guy who calls people out for seeing conspiracies where they don't exist.
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obama, performance |
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