02-24-2009, 01:44 PM | #241 (permalink) |
Crazy, indeed
Location: the ether
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I think you are getting things backwards a bit. First, just to clarify, I never said interest rates were zero, but close enough to it, which is the case for all bills with short to medium term maturity.
In any case, it is not the rate the govt is charging others, but that it is paying on its bills, or the interest it is paying when it borrows money. It has little to do with the deals the financial institutions are making, other than to say that the scenario for private investment is so bad that people, not only around the world but within the US itself, prefer to make almost nothing lending to the government than receiving an uncertain percentage from private investments. |
02-24-2009, 03:06 PM | #242 (permalink) |
Psycho
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It's a fuckin' miracle. No worries it looks like this giant spendulus plan worked and the recession is ending this year. I'm just glad Obama was able to guide us through this deep recession and bring us out so soon!!! We are so lucky to have him at the helm.
__________________
"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." Thomas Jefferson |
02-25-2009, 08:51 AM | #243 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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Interesting, I was watching the cable news talk shows last night after Obama's speech. On one show they did a survey and about 80% had a positive outlook after his speech, I don't remember exactly how the question was phrased. And of course Obama has about a 65% approval rating. So, I am wondering why every time he speaks the stock market tanks? Why aren't all these optimistic people investing? Why aren't they buying homes? What should we believe, polls or how people actually invest their money?
__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
02-25-2009, 09:58 AM | #245 (permalink) | |
Who You Crappin?
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
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CNN also had a Nobel winning economist on who said that using the day-to-day stock market trends as a metric for the economy is the wrong thing to do. |
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02-25-2009, 10:23 AM | #246 (permalink) | |
Junkie
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The other day I had pizza for lunch and the next day the stock market tanked. Clearly I shouldn't eat pizza anymore... |
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02-25-2009, 11:17 AM | #247 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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Oh, I disagree. I think "cheerleading" is one of the most powerful tools available to a national leader. I think it again goes to the fundamental view held by Obama, who thinks government is the answer. The reality is that millions of hard working people and growing businesses are the answer, and sometimes we need encouragement. But as Biden said in response to a question regarding what is in the stimulus for small business, paraphrased - if your business needs a bridge for your customers to get to you, we will build a bridge. O.k., personally I don't need a bridge, but I could put more money to work if I got a tax cut.
__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
02-25-2009, 11:24 AM | #248 (permalink) | |
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Just because they're not investing doesn't mean they're not optimistic. . . They simply don't have the money to invest. |
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02-25-2009, 11:32 AM | #249 (permalink) | |||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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In June 2008, when Obama secured the nomination the Dow was at about 12,600, today it is at about 7,200. That is a lot of hope down the drain, don't you agree? ---------- Post added at 07:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:25 PM ---------- Quote:
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{added} Oh, and here is another good one. They just doubled the federal deficit, and now Obama is going to cut it in half by the end of his first term. What does that mean folks? If this was not so serious, I would be laughing out loud. It has to be a joke the way the pundits are so amazed by Obama's plan.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." Last edited by aceventura3; 02-25-2009 at 11:36 AM.. |
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02-25-2009, 11:52 AM | #250 (permalink) | ||
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Do you understand the difference between the deficit and the debt? The deficit is not cumulative, the debt is. Yes, he's having to spend a lot of money now, because the republicans screwed everything up so badly. But that doesn't mean he can't cut government spending in the future. |
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02-25-2009, 12:53 PM | #253 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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Here is another example. Removing the troops from Iran. O.k. I get the fact you can not predict an exact date, like the 16 month timeframe Obama promised, but then he mocked McCain for saying we would have troops in Iran for an indefinite period of time. Guess what, Obama is going to leave 50,000 troops in Iran for an indefinite period of time. Gee, I am so confused. ---------- Post added at 08:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:47 PM ---------- I have money in the stock market and I want the market to go up. Me making money trumps politics. Being honest, I could be a happy billionaire in a communist country, not support communism in principle - but support those who help me protect my wealth. If Obama made the market go up 50%, rather than down almost 50% since June 2008, I would be spending much less time on his case.
__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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02-25-2009, 12:54 PM | #254 (permalink) | ||
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02-25-2009, 12:57 PM | #255 (permalink) | |
Darth Papa
Location: Yonder
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Not that THAT'S the problem with what you posted, but it IS evidence for confusion over there. |
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02-25-2009, 01:03 PM | #256 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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---------- Post added at 09:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:58 PM ---------- O.k., o.k., it all the fault ob Republicans, now what... Quote:
---------- Post added at 09:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:01 PM ---------- My mistake.
__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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02-25-2009, 01:15 PM | #257 (permalink) | |||
Tone.
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That would be the problem.
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I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say here. Quote:
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02-25-2009, 01:32 PM | #258 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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I answered the question already. I am a sucker. I actually believed in change. I think the people who said they believed in change, lied and buried their money in their back yards. Quote:
__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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02-25-2009, 01:57 PM | #259 (permalink) | ||
Crazy, indeed
Location: the ether
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That aside, no amount of cheerleading will make people resume payments on underwater mortgages, no amount of cheerleading is going to clear up toxic securities from banks' asset sheets. Only someone extremely partisan would say that the problem with the current economic scenario is that the president isnt optimistic enough. ---------- Post added at 01:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:48 PM ---------- Quote:
So, as even the basic morality tails tell us, save during the good times and spend during the bad. Clinton had a surplus during his economic expansion, Bush had a deficit during his. That is the difference. |
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02-25-2009, 02:22 PM | #260 (permalink) | |||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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I presented my theory on why I lost so much money since June, 2008. I clearly made an error in judgment and I think I know what that error was. If others think the decline in the market since June is Bush's fault or the fault of Republicans, all I can do is ask - when is change going to be responsible for anything? Let me know when it is safe to dig up my money and put it in a bank, real estate, or Wall St.
__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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02-25-2009, 10:22 PM | #261 (permalink) | |
Tone.
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Thanks for proving me right, though I kinda wish you hadn't. |
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02-25-2009, 10:54 PM | #262 (permalink) |
has all her shots.
Location: Florida
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Can I believe we are having this conversation? uh, no...well, yes.
can i get an updated statement on what the bush presidency has cost me in actual dollars and cents since (roughly) 2004 and also, while you're at it a ballpark estimate of what it will cost me over the next 10 years... and I'll have a biggie fry and a coke with that, if you please.
__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce |
02-25-2009, 11:08 PM | #263 (permalink) | |
Crazy, indeed
Location: the ether
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How much of all of this was Bush's "fault?" Hard to quantify, and honestly I think of economics as being more than the morality play of the mainstream media where any problems can only come about from the moral shortcoming of a particular person, and not the sort of systemic hiccups that any economic system goes through from time to time. The thing, though, is that while markets have cycles, sometimes governments can worsen conditions significantly or vice versa. In this case, the causes for this mess are numerous, but we do know of three things that made it much, much worse than it needed to be. - Alan Greenspan set a very expansionary monetary policy a few years ago. 1% fed rates made money extremely cheap. In an upward cycle, this is precisely the sort of thing that fuels speculative bubbles. This is neither party's fault as fed policy is independent from the executive branch. - Regulation lagged behind significantly. Methods for determining margin calls and net capital requirements were poorly understood, if they were understood at all. Here is a good read: Recipe for Disaster: The Formula That Killed Wall Street This, of course, is both party's fault. - Finally, there is the whole deficit issue. And this IS Bush's fault. As someone who is concerned about deficit and the debt, I just don't see how you can ignore this. Bush's deficits were large and significant, and had to be financed from abroad. Running a deficit during an economic expansion is like throwing fuel to the fire. It accelerates inflation, increases costs, increases imports, etc. Which is why basic economic knowledge says that, just like the tale of the bees, you should save while times are good to spend when they arent. Bush did the opposite, sped up the bubble and therefore is significantly responsible for the mess. As far as when we should start blaming Obama, well, anything before at least one year in office is too little to evaluate economic policy. Decisions regarding investment, stocks, hiring and firing take a few months to change direction. If by mid 2010 we are worse than what most projections expect, then we can start talking about it. Before that, its just the toxic waste that he inherited. Just as Bush wasnt responsible for the dotcom bust (although he was responsible for mishandling the recovery). |
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02-26-2009, 08:53 AM | #264 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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---------- Post added at 04:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:47 PM ---------- Quote:
Also, is it me or do they simply not know what they say has consequences. For example private planes serve a purpose, can be cost effective and not always about luxury. So to dump on business people who use that tool, is to dump on the industry that makes that tool. Perhaps they want all the people in that industry unemployed.
__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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02-26-2009, 08:55 AM | #265 (permalink) |
Tone.
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He's taking responsibility. Just because he can't fix the mess overnight doesn't mean he's sloughing off responsibility, or that he wasn't ready to go. What you seem to have trouble wrapping your mind around is that real life is not a TV drama where everything is solved in one hour-minus-commercial-breaks. Yes, he did inherit a major problem. A problem three decades in the making. Surely you are not suggesting that he take the blame for what was started in the 1980's? This mess is going to take years to solve. Years. He's the president, not a wizard. He can't just wave his wand and make everything lovely. I know that's going to be a hard adjustment because magic and (in their own words) voodoo economics seem to be the republican solution for anything involving money, but unlike Reagan and the Bushes (and Clinton) we live in the real world and can't just cast a spell to fix things.
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02-26-2009, 09:06 AM | #266 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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---------- Post added at 05:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:59 PM ---------- Quote:
__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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02-26-2009, 09:50 AM | #268 (permalink) | |
Tone.
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The difference is that your QB did not have to convince millions of people that the way the old QB was running things wasn't working. The QB said something, and the rest of the team did it. Obama has to convince people, and constantly remind people, that the Republican way of doing things got us in this mess, because the Republicans are still running around claiming their way of doing things is the best way. |
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02-26-2009, 10:35 AM | #269 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: In the land of ice and snow.
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02-26-2009, 10:38 AM | #270 (permalink) |
Crazy, indeed
Location: the ether
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Ace,
No one is going to resume payment on an underwater mortgage simply because the president was upbeat. No one is going to reverse foreclosure because the president is a good cheerleader. Mortgage backed securities are not suddenly become worth something again because the administration sounds optimistic. No investor is going to pick up worthless derivatives because a chief of staff is smiling. That is not how it works. |
02-26-2009, 01:28 PM | #271 (permalink) | ||||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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---------- Post added at 09:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:14 PM ---------- Every lesson to be learned about life, can be learned on the football field. ---------- Post added at 09:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:17 PM ---------- Quote:
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I can't believe you don't think words can make a difference if they come from the most powerful office on the planet. I simply can not believe it, I won't accept it.
__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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02-26-2009, 03:28 PM | #274 (permalink) | ||
Tone.
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Reagan, Bush, Clinton, and Bush 2 failed to look at the history of the robber baron era, and what that immense separation of upper and lower classes led to (the great depression), and busily got down to the business of creating a yawning gulf once again. And, once again, the economy tanked because the ultra rich can't stand it if they aren't getting ultra-richer. |
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02-27-2009, 04:20 AM | #275 (permalink) |
Psycho
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Poor Bush, he set the conservative movement {a smaller more fiscally responsible government} back 20 years or more and no matter how much he spent and expanded existing government programs he couldn't buy the love of the liberals because of that giant (R). In the end everyone hated him but for different reasons, the conservatives for spending and expanding the government like there was no tomorrow and again the liberals because of that (R).
As far as Obama's performance so far, I truly hope he succeeds. This country desperately needs him to succeed. We simply can't wait another 4 years to give someone else a stab at it. So far much like Bush somethings are business as usual but there have a been a few positive developments so we shall see.
__________________
"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." Thomas Jefferson |
02-27-2009, 05:26 AM | #276 (permalink) | |
Mad Philosopher
Location: Washington, DC
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__________________
"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht." "The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm." -- Friedrich Nietzsche |
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02-27-2009, 05:40 AM | #277 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: In the land of ice and snow.
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I loved Bush's embrace of incompetent cronyism, and how even when people monumentally fucked up he would tell them they did a "heckuva job". It was only the (R) next to his name that kept me from publicly voicing my support.
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02-27-2009, 06:56 AM | #278 (permalink) | |||
Psycho
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__________________
"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." Thomas Jefferson |
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02-27-2009, 07:39 AM | #279 (permalink) | ||||||||
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I reread it. You seem to be accusing us of disliking Bush because he's a republican, when in fact we dislike him because he's an evil moron who likes to torture people.
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Are you kidding me? Please tell me this is satire. Quote:
Yeah, because Afghanistan was hiding the son of a bitch who attacked us. We supported retaliation against the group that attacked us. Iraq wasn't hiding him. In fact, Saddam hated bin Laden and would have killed him if he could have found him. Quote:
Ahh, yes, you're parroting such intellectual giants as the Swiftboat idiots. If you're going to repeat other people's words without thinking about what they say, you should at least pick someone smart. Better yet, someone smart who isn't blatantly lying. Quote:
I would make a snarky comment here about you only disliking Obama because of the giant D next to his name, but that would an overly extreme case of stating the obvious. Quote:
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How is that a democratic idea? It's a wall street / investment banker / mortgage broker idea, cheerfully encouraged by Greenspan. Who is a self-admitted Republican. Quote:
You're right there. Obama has to be FDR 2.0 and he has very little time to do it in. |
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02-27-2009, 08:02 AM | #280 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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Oh, I guess he did not actually have two broken legs, my bad.
__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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obama, performance |
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