10-10-2007, 07:25 AM | #202 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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10-10-2007, 07:35 AM | #203 (permalink) |
Location: Washington DC
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The plan is as an "individual mandate" plan that requires you to have health insurance comparable to a requirement to have auto insurance.
The devil is in the detail and I really dont know the enforcement mechanism. I do know it provides many options for individuals to select the plan that best suits their needs. Of course its more complex than I implied, but its equally simplistic to characterization it as "socialized medicine" as others (not you) have suggested. And now I am done here too.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 10-10-2007 at 07:41 AM.. |
10-10-2007, 07:41 AM | #204 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Indiana
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I eat organic and work out and rarely have to go to the doctor. Yet you still want me to buy insulin for some obese idiot who can't figure out high fructose corn syrup is killing him, or the smoker with lung cancer, or anyone else who has no regard for their health. I guess that's perfectly acceptable in your world. Forcing me to participate in this BULLSHIT is so uneverving. It's as bad as forcing religion on someone. Healthcare is not about being healthy or getting well, it's about a continuing dependecy on the system. Socialized healthcare will just make this worse. I won't be visiting your Mengele offices or hospitals. No thanks. There's two types of people, those who want to be left alone and those who won't leave them alone. I think we both know where we stand.
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It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize. |
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10-10-2007, 07:46 AM | #205 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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Yep....that explains it.
Each man (or woman) left to himself (herself) and fuck everybody else. It a shame you can't see how this attitude will ultimately will come around to affect you anyway, in either your pocketbook, your workplace or other social interactions. I think even your man Ron Paul, with all his libertarian leanings, understands that much. Quote:
Now I will leave you alone
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 10-10-2007 at 07:59 AM.. |
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10-10-2007, 08:03 AM | #206 (permalink) | |
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Location: Indiana
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Ron Paul ran a doctors office with an external payment drop box and never accepted medicare/medicaid. If someone couldn't afford to pay no questions were asked. The reason he stopped his practice and ran for congress is because governmental intrutions made it increasingly difficult to run his practice how he saw fit. The sponsors of this bill do not have the outstanding character of Ron Paul, but they do have the payoffs from big pharm. I'm sure Hillary will get elected and you'll have all the healthcare you want.
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It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize. |
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10-10-2007, 08:18 AM | #207 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Hillary is bought and paid for. I doubt we'll see single payer health care under her. We'll probably get something better than we have now, but that's not saying much.
As I understand it, the wait times are due to there not being enough doctors, but graduates in medicine in Canada and Western Europe have steadily been on the rise for the past two years. If the trend continues, waiting times will become less and less of a problem. As for paying for someone else, no man is an island. Sometimes we need to lean on people for help, and sometimes they need to lean on us. That's what society means. All of us, collectively, are interdependent. We have to do our best to make sure the health care system won't make people complacent and dependent, but to deny someone health care because they might not have 100% healthy habits is deeply cruel and inhuman. Universal healthcare is about equality and sympathy, two ideals I hold in very high regard. To Samcol, is it bullshit that you pay for roads or police? Would you opt out of them and simply not use them? I see medical care as being just as necessary if not more so than any other governmental system or program be it as big as military or as small as regulating for safe baby food. It's alright to admit that sometimes corporations can't get the job done because they're too profit driven. |
10-10-2007, 08:26 AM | #208 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Ontario, Canada
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How about this for a healthplan:
All you fat, smoking, drinking buggers get no insurance or healthcare, period. If you don't get at least 3 hours of exercise a week, no doctor for you. You die (hopefully failing to propogate) leaving the rest of the universe with affordable health coverage, provided either by the state or privately? Probably would save about a trillion dollars or so ...
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Si vis pacem parabellum. |
10-10-2007, 09:44 AM | #211 (permalink) | |
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Location: Indiana
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By your own admition it's a failed program it seems. A: We pay more money to support the healthcare of these unhealthy individuals or B: We begin outlawing anything perceived by masses as unhealty. Both are bad, people should be able to smoke or be fat and lazy if they want, but I shouldn't have to pay for it. I just don't understand why people won't let me make my own decisions about something as critical as my health. It's mind boggling. Let's not forget the government will get to decide what is or isn't covered. You want the same government that sends us to needless war and destroys civil liberties to take care of us. You can't possible believe they won't royally fuck healthcare up too. p.s. And no, I don't believe healthcare falls in the same category as roads and police, especially at a federal level.
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It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize. |
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10-10-2007, 10:21 AM | #212 (permalink) | |||||
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10-10-2007, 11:01 AM | #213 (permalink) | |||||
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Location: Indiana
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The other huge problem that we aren't even talking about is how bad the actual 'care' is. The FDA allows horrible things to pass (GMOs, pesticides, fertalizers, antibiotics, growth hormones all in the food supply that makes us sick so we can buy their cool new pill) while trying to ban natural cures. This is the system you are supporting and now you want to force me to participate. It's bad. Quote:
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It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize. Last edited by samcol; 10-10-2007 at 11:04 AM.. |
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10-10-2007, 11:23 AM | #214 (permalink) | ||||||
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10-10-2007, 11:44 AM | #215 (permalink) | ||||
Tilted Cat Head
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Location: Manhattan, NY
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You are now touting a monopoly by the government, when earlier you suggested that people will still have choices.
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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10-10-2007, 11:51 AM | #216 (permalink) | ||||
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Location: bedford, tx
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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10-10-2007, 12:01 PM | #217 (permalink) | |||||||||
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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ACHP Chemical Safety and Hazard Investigations Board Federal Maritime Commission Merit Systems Protection Board National Archives and Records Administration National Council on Disability National Endowment for the Arts National Endowment for the Humanities National Institute of Mental Health National Park Service I can name a lot more. Quote:
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Really, though, I was expecting a better argument than that. Jeez. Quote:
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10-10-2007, 12:40 PM | #218 (permalink) | ||||||||
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Location: bedford, tx
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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10-10-2007, 01:00 PM | #219 (permalink) | |||||
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Location: Indiana
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You're coming up with some pretty crazy 'what ifs' and conclusions that have no evidence to support them (like pharma being declawed ).
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It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize. |
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10-10-2007, 01:01 PM | #220 (permalink) | ||||||
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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That's what we pay for, and as someone who lives in the safest large city in the whole country, I know this. Quote:
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10-10-2007, 01:09 PM | #221 (permalink) | |||||||
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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10-10-2007, 01:41 PM | #222 (permalink) | ||||||
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Murder rate per 1,000 residents: San Jose - 0.0285 NYC - 0.0664 violent crimes rate per 1,000 residents: San Jose - 3.8351 NTC - 6.7305 Quote:
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10-10-2007, 01:54 PM | #223 (permalink) | |||||
Tilted Cat Head
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Location: Manhattan, NY
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really quickly before i head home...
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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10-10-2007, 02:09 PM | #224 (permalink) | |||
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Location: bedford, tx
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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10-10-2007, 02:17 PM | #225 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Yes Malpractice happens. Massive settlements also happen. Those are what I take issue with. If there was policy to guide malpractice instead of litigation, the whole thing would become cheaper.
As for the fish, yes, there is could be a small amount, but it's only dangerous to a fetus. It's not going to kill you. That's because of the FDA. Some cities are incorporated, but not the Federal government. Discoveries in medicine happen at the same rate in the UK and France as they do in the US, therefore socialization does not stifle progress. How much have the Dems spent in the past 15 years? Now how much has the GOP spent? The GOP spends more. |
10-10-2007, 02:30 PM | #226 (permalink) |
Location: Washington DC
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Hillary and Barak proposed a "policy guide to malpractice" in 2005 and its also included in Hillary's plan.
Its called the Medical Error Disclosure and Compensation (MEDiC) Act. Its explained pretty well in this article by Clinton and Obama in the New England Journal of Medicine. http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/354/21/2205
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 10-10-2007 at 02:33 PM.. |
10-10-2007, 06:32 PM | #228 (permalink) | ||
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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Taxes are quite high based on what I read an know. I'm not sure how much of that gets redirected to healthcare coverage, but the $104 paid into the Eldery Construction Fund doesn't appear to include the healthcare costs, but just the construction and operation of the facility. Quote:
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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10-10-2007, 07:47 PM | #229 (permalink) | |
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10-10-2007, 08:30 PM | #230 (permalink) | |||
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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I just found something I recall reading the other day
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One of the links that I read puts Icelandic healthcare as 40% of the national budget. Quote:
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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10-11-2007, 03:49 AM | #231 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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10-11-2007, 04:03 AM | #232 (permalink) |
Location: Iceland
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Thanks for the info, Cyn. The question is, would you live here, given what you know about the Icelandic health care system and how much of your income would be going to fund it? Personally, based on the health care system alone, I'd rather live here than in the US... and I wouldn't mind seeing something like the Scandinavian system implemented in the US, either. Yes, Iceland is small, but the other Nordic countries are not so small, and they do manage their health care just as well (in my opinion). Just a thought.
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And think not you can direct the course of Love; for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course. --Khalil Gibran |
10-11-2007, 04:36 AM | #233 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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As an American citizen the problem with living in another country (expatriation) is that I am liable to pay US taxes and the taxes of the expatriating country. So it is a double tax hit. My choices for living places are based more on my ability to have quality of life and disposable income. Healthcare is only a factor if I'm not gainfully employed by a company that provides healthcare benefits to their employees, that is a slim to none proposition. I'm quite selfish when it comes to spending the money that I earn. I'm happy to give it to friends and family as needed with no expectation of reciprocity, but strangers on the other hand, I'm not so fast in giving it out.
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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10-11-2007, 05:24 AM | #234 (permalink) | |
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10-11-2007, 06:29 AM | #235 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Si vis pacem parabellum. |
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10-11-2007, 09:24 PM | #236 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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10-12-2007, 09:21 AM | #237 (permalink) | |
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The UK, US, and Mexico, end up being much harsher places to live than in Denmark or in France....it doesn't have to be that way....but the wealthiest won't permit the status quo to be any other way....in the case of attempts by government to more equitably distribute health care....or any other "wealth", it is the controlling group who have the money to produce and distribute the "Harry and Louise" ads...... which work to undermine the effort. https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat.../da.html#Intro Because of high GDP per capita, welfare benefits, a low Gini index, and political stability, the Danish living standards are among the highest in the world. A major long-term issue will be the sharp decline in the ratio of workers to retirees. <b>Denmark's stats are on the right</b> GDP - per capita (PPP): $37,100 (2006 est.) France =$31,200 (2006 est.) United Kingdom = $31,800 (2006 est.) USA= $43,800 (2006 est.) Mexico= $10,700 (2006 est.) Unemployment rate: 3.8% (2006 est.) France =8.7% (December 2006 est.) United Kingdom = 2.9% (2006 est.) USA= 4.8% (2006 est.) Mexico= 3.2% plus underemployment of perhaps 25% Population below poverty line N/A .......... France = 6.2% (2004) United Kingdom = 17% (2002 est.) USA= 12% (2004 est.) Mexico= 40% (2003 est.) Household income or consumption by percentage share: lowest 10%: 2% France = 3% United Kingdom = lowest 10%: 2.1% USA= lowest 10%: 1.8% Mexico= lowest 10%: 1.6% highest 10%: 24% (2000 est.) France =24.8% (2004) United Kingdom = 28.5% (1999) USA= highest 10%: 30.5% (1997) Mexico= highest 10%: 35.6% (2002) Distribution of family income - Gini index: 23.2 (2002) France =26.7 (2002) United Kingdom = 36.8 (1999) USA= 45 (2004) Mexico= 54.6 (2000) Inflation rate (consumer prices): 1.8% (2006 est.) France = 1.5% (2006 est.) United Kingdom = 3% (2006 est.) USA= 2.5% (2006 est.) Mexico= 3.4% (2006 est.) Investment (gross fixed): 22.2% of GDP (2006 est.) France =20% of GDP (2006 est.) United Kingdom = 17.2% of GDP (2006 est.) USA= 16.6% of GDP (2006 est.) Mexico= 20% of GDP (2006 est.) Public debt: 28.1% of GDP (2006 est.) France =64.7% of GDP (2006 est.) United Kingdom = 42.2% of GDP (2006 est.) USA= 64.7% of GDP (2005 est.) Mexico= 20.7% of GDP (2006 est.) Current account balance: +$4.941 billion (2006 est.) France = -$38 billion (2006 est.) United Kingdom = -$57.68 billion (2006 est.) USA= -$862.3 billion (2006 est.) Mexico= -$400.1 million (2006 est.) Exports: $93.93 billion f.o.b. (2006 est.) France =$490 billion f.o.b. (2006 est.) United Kingdom = $468.8 billion f.o.b. (2006 est.) USA= $1.024 trillion f.o.b. (2006 est.) Mexico= $248.8 billion f.o.b. (2006 est.) Imports: $89.32 billion f.o.b. (2006 est.) France =$529.1 billion f.o.b. (2006 est.) United Kingdom = $603 billion f.o.b. (2006 est.) USA= $1.869 trillion f.o.b. (2006 est.) Mexico= $253.1 billion f.o.b. (2006 est.) |
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10-12-2007, 09:44 AM | #239 (permalink) | ||
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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Put this into dollars and cents and look at how many hours you have to work in order to purchase something. I look at things like American Tax Freedom day where every year we work MORE days to pay our taxes than less. In 1990 23-Apr was Tax Freedom day with taxes at 30.80%. In 2007 30-Apr is the day with taxes at 32.69%. A whopping WEEK extra I have to work for a 2% increase. Sorry, no thank you. As I continue to raise my standard of living by increasing my wages, I don't want some asshole who sits at home playing Xbox because he doesn't feel like working to benefit more from it. Quote:
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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10-13-2007, 07:36 AM | #240 (permalink) | |
immoral minority
Location: Back in Ohio
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Both parties are big spenders. And I don't like the idea of high taxes to pay for healthcare either. But everyone needs some level of healthcare, even if it is the catostrphic type. It shouldn't cost too much (under $10/month, free if you are poor), and most people would never use it. But if they get into a car crash, get shot, or cut off a finger, then they would be protected from the multi-thousand dollar hospital bill. You never know when it will happen or who it will happen to, and nobody would want it to happen to them. If you work or have some money, then you could get better coverage. But I doubt a universal health insurance policy would include different tiers for people to choose which level of care they need. I can choose which level of car insurance I have, but I am required to carry it to protect the other guy at a minimum. I don't see why it would be different with healthcare, you can't choose to be healthy or not. If you could then no one would be in the hospital. |
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care, health, hillary, idea, nsfw |
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