Cynthetiq

Jeez. You don't get it.

If it's so universally needed, then why not include motorists? There are lots of uninsured motorists all over the nation. Everyone uses motorists in some capacity from deliveries to mail, buses to private drivers. According to the logic all the costs should go down right?

No it's not right because it takes the CHOICE away from the individual. If I choose to not own or drive a car, I pay the least amount of taxes for the infrastructure of the roads and highways. I can opt out of the system at a basic level of choosing to not participate in it even though I can opt in for some use via busses, taxis, and private car hire. I still have a choice and I wish to retain this choice and other choices.

The problem you all have is you want universal to mean everyone has to participate in paying for it even if as someone pointed out wanting to keep that $82 in their pocket as their own choice.

Again, for the sicko thread I pointed out that because I didn't pay into health care even with my motorcycle accident where I was taken to a hospital and paid my own hospital bills. I still came out ahead as more money in my pocket since I didn't pay premiums for services I never used.

Today I would never make that same choice again, but at that age, I didn't have asthma nor pancreatitis. So now I am still ahead of the game were my premiums and copays paid saved me more money that what I would have paid out of pocket over the years of me paying into the insurance game.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Shauk

well as much as I'd LOVE to see a real effective heath care system in place, I'm on the fence on this one. basically, take our legal system for example. I've never really been in and out of a courtroom aside from paying speeding tickets (my car is fast, what can I say?) I guess public defenders are pretty much the bottom feeders of the legal system, no one thinks highly of them, and even though they are there for a good "ideal" cause of equal justice for all, many people just bash on them for being fairly worthless. I would assume if we halfass it into some sort of basic health care system for everyone, it would shoot the need for new basic practice doctors through the roof, and thus we'd wind up with a bunch of half-wit's misdiagnosing people and prescribing the wrong meds to people, I don't know. I just think if something like this goes in to place, it needs to go into place correctly.

this seems to tie a bit into the thread where people were discussing thier faith in police officers to resolve issues and crimes as well, another public tax paid service. pretty rough if you think about the shoddyness many of us have actually encountered with our public services.

Willravel

They—Canada, the UK, and even France—pay less in taxes for health care than we pay in insurance for health care. We should concentrate on that, considering it's the entire economic case in one sentence.

seretogis

I'll continue to "pay more" for my higher quality healthcare whilst you and the uninsured move to Canada. Deal?

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Cynthetiq

but their OVERALL payments of taxes is HIGHER than what we pay in total for both taxes AND healthcare combined. You'd like to fight on the slice, but I'll state that the money comes from someplace. I don't think that a trillion dollars is just going to show up from thin air. Free money for retirement like social security? yeah sure. I didn't buy it when I was told about it as a kid, and I'm not buying it as an adult. On the same token, I'm not expecting my government to take care of me and mine. I'm improving my own live for me and my family with my own prudent choices be they good or bad choices. It is my choice and my responsibilty to accept the consequences of those choices.

Again you miss the point that it is the total amount of money out of pocket that I don't see becoming less. You may support it, I'm all for you supporting it. But nothing you say will convince me otherwise to support it myself. I can take care of myself much better than the government can.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Willravel

Overall taxes? They're more socialist, so they're not just paying for healthcare. It hardly makes sense to include non-health care expenses in this discussion. When you put what we spend total on health care next to what they pay total, we pay more. When you compare individual payments between the US and France... it's still cheaper there. And they have the best health care in the world. I enjoyed reading the stories above about how people come to the US for health care, especially considering that happens to France all the time.

I'll pay less and get better care in France.

tecoyah

Until we can manage to control the insurance company profit machine....there will never be affordable healthcare in the U.S.

The question becomes , is it in the best interests of a capitalist country to regulate a large portion of its economy.....probably not. So, we end up with exactly what we have for better or for worse. The best care for those who can afford it, and a far lesser system for those who cannot.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

flstf

The question also becomes, what does a capitalistic country do with an industry that a large percentage of the population needs where there is little or no competition?

aceventura3

apple and oranges. First, French women are o.k. with the natural aging of their breasts. Americans spend billions on cosmetic health treatments. Second, Joe Six Pack ( I ain't talking about abs) would not dream of walking - lifestyle in America plays a big part in how much we spend on health care. Like I said be careful of the conclusions drawn from the data on per-capita health care spending or health care spending as a percentage of GDP.

Don't forget about the AMA and their lobbing and other efforts to control the availability of people who can administer medical treatment professionally. I would suggest that medical care will never go down in price unless the supply of medical providers increases or viable alternatives are available.

Medical malpractice lawsuits are another reason why costs are so high. First there are the unfair judgements and then we have the unintended consequence of defensive medicine and doctors going from high risk areas of medicine to lower risk areas - Obstetricians are very hard to find in some communities and so are midwifes

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"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

Willravel

I said health care, not cosmetic surgery. Cosmetic surgery isn't included in medical insurance. Not only that, but there is an obesity problem in France. It may not be in the same scale as the US, but it's there. So is our obesity problem so much worse that we pay twice what they're paying and many of us don't even have coverage? Sounds pretty unreasonable to me.

aceventura3

In addition we have a system where the one who receives heath care service has no incentive to keep the cost of treatment down. I generally want to get to my deductable as soon as possible and after that I am good, and generally don't care what the cost of my treatment is as long as my insurance company pays the bill.

This is what you posted:

Breast implants are in those numbers. So are Viagra prescriptions. Guys who don't drink gallons of beer each week, smoke and eat glazed dough nuts by the dozen don't need Viagra.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

Willravel

No, they're not.

Cynthetiq

There's a seperate number for cosmetic surgery?

You have seen a breakdown of what those numbers include?

because we have a member her who had breast augmentation done albeit reduction but it was medically related if i recall correctly.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

ubertuber

Just because a surgery is done by a cosmetic surgery specialist does not mean it's "cosmetic surgery".

Would you put a person who gets a breast implant after radical mastectomy in the same category as one who implants purely to fill out her bikini? What about reductions to prevent or reduce back problems? Are they the same as pec implants for men? How does a gastric bypass compare to liposuction?

The question is more about elective surgeries - and I don't know the answer to how the distinction is made in countries with healthcare coverage. I'd actually like to kno. However, I seriously doubt you can just put your name on the boobjob list and wait in line for a porn career.

__________________
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Willravel

Possibly, but this has nothing to do with plastic surgery because most plastic surgeries aren't covered by health insurance. Go in and ask for peck implants and hand them your HMO card. See what happens. BTW, breast reductions ARE NOT cosmetic.

Cynthetiq

that's exactly what my point is. my sister's facial suturing was done by a top chinese cosmetic surgeon, but it was due to her being in a car accident that prompted the usage of a cosmetic surgeon.

Then how can you say, "No, they're not." and expect me or anyone else to accept that as anything but you pulling stuff out of thin air. You don't know nor have any place to back up your claim.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

ASU2003

I would like to see a non-profit insurance company start up, or even let anybody that wants to become covered by Medicare, regardless of their age.

I think we should try universal dental insurance first to see how it works here. Everyone has teeth, and some people have more problems than others, but healthy teeth for everyone would be a good start.

Willravel

Because it's common sense. If health care won't pay for elective surgeries, then they won't be included in health care costs. It's a big bucket of duh.

Cynthetiq

Big bucket of something that smells and it's isn't bullspit.

Seriously, did you read what uber points out? Radical masectomy with breast implant or breast reconstructive surgery, is that in there? No one knows for sure.

Also you don't know that it doesn't include elective surgery a might big assumption of duh.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Willravel

I'm sorry you can't wrap your head around this, but I don't know how I can make it any more clear. Healthcare is what we're talking about. If health care insurance doesn't cover elective surgeries, which it doesn't, then the numbers do not include elective surgeries. This is as crystal clear as things can be.
Health care = doesn't include elective surgeries.




I think the amazing part of all of this, though, is that even in your version of the universe, we are paying a lot more (unless you're saying for every $1 we pay on non-cosmetic surgery, we pay $1 on cosmetic surgery, which really starts to make me question if you're just arguing to be stubborn).

Cynthetiq

so radical mastecotomy with breast reconstruction included or not? because as far as I can tell, they saved her life, she doesn't *need* breasts, elective right? wrong? which is it since you seem to be the one with the common sense and I'm missing it so radically you think I'm referring to Pamela Anderson.

since you seem to have the common sense knowledge and I don't apparently.

let me put it in pictures for you.

http://www.myselftogetheragain.org/process.htm

So elective process? or part of making her psychologically whole again?

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Willravel

I don't see it as any different than fixing a person's face after a car accident. It's about curing them. But this is so far beside the point we've gone into stupid territory. Cynth, how much is spent on rebuilding breasts after cancer each year? Do you think it's the same amount that's paid total for health care? No? The it's moot. We pay more than the French who get better treatment. That's it.

Cynthetiq

I don't know how much it is, but since you declared "No, they don't" you've obviously stated it with some authority postion of knowledge.

and again, I don't know how much "WE" pay for healthcare. I know how much *I* pay for healthcare. I'm comfortable with that amount and find it fair coverage.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Willravel

Semantics aren't arbitrary. Health care is what it is.

Since you dodged the implication of my question, I'll be more direct. You're asserting that France and the US actually pay the same, except that we have more cosmetic surgery. That cosmetic surgery makes up for the large different in what we pay according to the WHO. Do you have any evidence to suggest that 5.1% of our GDP and $2,730.00 per capita is taken up by cosmetic surgery? If not, then it is in fact you who has arbitrarily ruled. It would seem, lacking any figures, that you're pulling that assumption from thin air.

dc_dux

Just for the record, I think most insurance companies and HMOs use the Medicare/Medicaid definition of "medical care" and "cosmetic surgery":
But that detracts from the larger issue.

Cynthetiq, how do you propose we deal with the rising cost of medical care for the insured ...health insurance premiums are rising annually at 2-3 times the cost of living (either you are paying that much more or your employer is or both).

And the cost to society of the uninsured....$40+ billion/year, a large portion of which you (or your employer absorb)

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Willravel

Thank you very much, DC. I was having trouble locating that information.

dc_dux

I wont send you a bill and take more money out of your pockets.

But I would like to see some reasonable response to the health care crisis (yes, IMO, it is a crisis) from those who are opposed to meaningful health care reform that includes affordable access to all citizens.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Willravel

I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, so correct me if I'm wrong cynth, but I think you're saying that because you're happy with the system, you aren't interested in fixing it.

That sentiment may be quite common.

Cynthetiq

No I'm not. YOU are.

I'm stating that I'm comfortable with the cost versus value I have for my medical health benefits. I don't want it to cost more than it does than it has to rise as all costs do rise over time. Thus my need to continue to earn more to meet the cost of living increases required.

I don't give a crap how much it costs in France. You do. You're the one comparing it. I'm not. I'm stating simply I don't give a crap about those poor souls who don't have insurance. Too bad for them. Life sucks, it's shitty if you don't have choices, but that is called L I F E.

Yes. That is correct.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Willravel

That's, um. Are you sure you want to go with that wording? I mean it just reminds me of "I'm rubber and you're glue"... "no you are!"
As I've demonstrated, it's cheaper when it's universal. You'd be paying less. You want to pay less for better care, right?
This isn't about your callous nature, this is about solving a national problem. That's what the thread is about. This isn't the "Do you give two shits about poor people?" thread. It's about universal health care, specifically Hillary Clinton's plan (which I linked a while back). It's actually quite good. It's about what's good for the country, not just Cynth. I hope that's clear.

Cynthetiq

I assert that there is a percentage of the population that doesn't care to support more social programs or services at ADDITIONAL costs.

Everytime someone has told me it will cost me less, I have never seen it cost me less. I have seen me get less services or goods for the same $1. But I have never seen it cost me $.80 when it used to cost me $1.

Again, I assert that I can take care of myself and my own family better than any government social program or government can. NGO notwithstanding since they are generally NPO and try to help social systems where none exists. I live in a community of hundreds of NPOs.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Willravel

Then we have nothing to worry about. They stop paying tons for their insurance, and pay a bit to the government.
That's fallacious reasoning. The precedents aren't connected at all.
You're not your own doctor, and the doctors that would be under universal healthcare would be the same doctors that are paid via insurance and copay now. They don't import universal doctors. Unless you're saying you are your own doctor. Is that what you mean when you say you can take care of yourself?

dksuddeth

guess how much I paid for my health care last year? $0.00. Thats right. I paid zero dollars for health care last year, and I think the year before that. Why should I be forced to pay for everyone else to see a doctor?

If this plan were to actually be implemented, I think you'd see that it's going to only be good for the insurance companies and the politicians who pushed for it. Medical care quality will drop substantially.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Willravel

You're former military, right? You've already used socialized medicine. Congrats.

BTW, if you mean you don't have medical insurance, then you're a burden to those paying waiting to happen.
Medical insurance companies will disappear. They aren't used in a socialized medicine system.

filtherton

So i guess the main argument against universal health care is "tough shit, life ain't fair" This is a great argument because it can be applied everywhere.

Like, say for instance you don't want to pay for other people's healthcare, regardless of whether of not we will all be bettor off in some, possibly intangible way. All a proponent of universal health care would need to do is say, "Tough shit, life ain't fair." QED, i guess.

If you already know that life isn't fair, why are you complaining about how unfair it is for you to have to pay for someone else's healthcare?

Rekna

Off topic but please post pictures like that as a link on this board with an attached nsfw.

dksuddeth

not even remotely accurate.

how is that? IF I ever have to use a medical service, i'm sure i'll end up with the bill....and pay it.

Is THAT why health insurance companies are forking over billions to politicians? so they can be run out of business? come on will, you know better than that.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Willravel

Truly and completely accurate, actually. I hope you're not frustrated you've used a system that you now decry.
http://www.ha.osd.mil/
And if that bill is $120,000? My coarctation of the aorta repair was around that. I'd be surprised if you could drop $120k at a moment's notice.
They're trying to prevent universal healthcare with their donations. They even got Hillary to shut up about it for 10 years.

Maybe you can show me how, in universal healthcare systems currently operating, insurance companies are making money.

dksuddeth

it's no use debating this with you anymore if you are going to twist and blur everything completely out of context to redefine things.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Willravel

Did you pay for military health care? No. Was it paid for by taxpayers? Yes. That's universal health care. You used universal health care, as a soldier.

You may be a bit stubborn at times, but you're not dense. I know you realize this, too. I've been wrong before. It's best to just confront it.