ASU2003

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,296997,00.html

So, the right-wing people are trying to convince the masses that $110 billion would mean a lot of extra taxes. By my calculations, $110 billion is just $380 for each person in the US. Now, only 1/3 of Americans earn money, so some people might have to support their kids and spouces. But if they could give good health care coverage to every American for that much money, it sounds like a good plan. Espesicaly considering that I spend $840/year for Medicare right now, and I see nothing of that myself.

Right now, as a healthy 27 year old, I pay $600 a year to a for-profit insurance comapny. My company pays at least that much as well. And I have a $2500 high deductible HSA plan right now, so the insurance doesn't do much until I spend $2500. (Well, I get to use the first $800 that my company pays into the HSA first). I would much rather pay the governement if they could do a better job.

So, how can she say it wil only be $110 billion? Is that what Americans would spend on doctors, tests, medicine and new technology. In her plan she could get rid of the insurance employees, stockholders, billing departments, etc.

I don't know. I'm sure that I could come up with a basic health care plan that would be free if you had a major injury. But it wouldn't cover the basic visits and simple illnesses (which wouldn't cost too much for the individual).

What do you think of this new health care idea? Would you rather have government run health care or insurance companies? Wouldn't a non-profit insurance company backed by the government be a good idea?

seretogis

Universal healthcare is completely unnecessary and simply anti-freedom. It is not about providing care to the old (Medicare) or the poor children (Medicaid), it is about forcing everyone into one government-constructed/controlled box.

Why are people so willing to lay themselves down to the whims of politicians that we know have their hands covered in blood? Why are they so willing to pull me down to the sacrificial altar with them?

__________________
seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

Rekna

wow this is wrong in so many ways..... Providing health care to everyone is anti-freedom? I knew those pesky liberals were trying to make me a slave. I just knew it. They almost got me by offering me free health care good thing I read this post and am not going to give up my freedom's to them. You know like free speech or the right to privacy....

cj2112

So if it's $380/year per person in the US, and only 1/3 work that means....let's see $380 x 3 = $1140 per working person. Why should the working individuals be forced to support those who don't work?

flstf

I don't know, with health care costs out of control it seems like something should be done. I wonder why most of the new proposals are keeping the insurance companies in the loop?

Bill O'Rights

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


Any questions?

I can remember, back in the 70's, going to the doctor's office for a check-up, physical or a minor ailment, and shelling out $20.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

Cynthetiq

That's what my copay is now doesn't seem like a lot of inflation as far as the copay is concerned.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Bill O'Rights

That wasn't the copay. That was the entire bill. There really was no insurance involvement, unless it was to cover something major.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

ShaniFaye

well thats my co-pay as well for any visit for any reason no matter how many times I go...on top of the 120 a month I pay for my part of my insurance.

Im with BOR I remember when without insurance the entire visit was the around the same as just a little more than my co-pay is now....

I get the "itemized this is not a bill" statement and it just astounds me how much they charge for just a regular office visit these days

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

filtherton

How about we answer that question with another one.

Why are people so willing to lay themselves down to the whims of markets that we know have their hands covered in blood? Why are they so willing to pull me down to the sacrificial altar with them?

dksuddeth

nothing but a huge wealth windfall for insurance companies, and this tying proof of health insurance with the ability to work? talk about dependency on government. anyone who thinks the benefits are going to far outweigh the costs are extremely shortsighted.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Willravel

Suggesting that one should have freedom from medical care should mean that they want freedom from police care, fire protection, disaster relief, use of public roads, and air. How about you stop paying taxes, and thus you stop using all that which the government affords you? How about the military stops protecting your family? How about you stop complaining?How about you stop being so selfish? I don't hear anyone complaining about having to pay taxes to the firemen come when there's a fire... at someone else's house!

I alone pay $515 a month. Not a year, a month. And $25 co-pay just to see a doctor. Why? Because I have a "preexisting condition". I'm not any more likely to need medical care, but that's irrelevant. If I left my healthcare provider, I could not get coverage in the US (cept by the worst companies out there that would require me to pay for most of any potential surgery). The funny thing is that in 50 years, I could pay for a $300,000 surgery.

The free market doesn't work with healthcare. It doesn't work with the military. It doesn't work with fire or police protection. It doesn't work with prisons. Get over the propaganda your community college economics teacher instilled in you about how the free market can solve all our problems and let's actually fix this.

kutulu

I want universal health care but I have a hard time believing that it could be done for only $380/person/year. I'm paying 410/month right now for my family and my company is paying more than half. The govt is going to do it for 10% of the cost?

trickyy

i don't need or want health insurance right now, nor do i want someone forcing me to get it

Willravel

Yes, you do. You're not immune to sickness, nor are you superhuman. Just like saying "I don't need police" doesn't make any sense, saying "I don't need healthcare" doesn't make any sense. You might not want to pay for it, but you pay for police without too much complaining.

When you have to fork over thousands or tens of thousands for something simple like a broken toe, you'll have wished that you would have had medical insurance.

Charlatan

I am always astounded when this discussion takes place in the US.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Mojo_PeiPei

I'm not opposed to the universal health care idea, people need it. But rather then forcing the tax payers to do it, why not go after the insurance companies and the medical industry, and any other cause of these outrageous prices (like lawyers and all the malpractice ligation that is a major reason for the prices)?

Again I'm not opposed to the idea, I just think it should perhaps more be a thing were people pay a reasonable rate because the government is regulating the industry and not making the tax payers handle their agenda.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

flstf

I think one of the biggest problems with health care is that there is little or no competition in many cases, especially hospital costs. I don't see where Hillary's or most other plans do anything to foster competition. Where there is little competition prices are naturally going to go way up.

There was a special on 20/20 the other night where they pointed out that most insured people do not ask and do not care what medical procedures cost since insurance picks up the majority of the bill. Most people do not ask the cost and when asked most doctors do not know either. We were asked to imagine what would happen to the price of food if we had grocery insurance similar to the way most health care insurance works.

Willravel

It's a nice idea, but while we're tied up in court for 15 years, many more people will suffer under the current system, myself included. It'd be awesome if we could go after these people, but even if we win, what will be done with the 45m people who can't afford insurance? Are we sure that the market will help them to get medical care?
That didn't happen in Canada or the UK. Or France.

A big part of this hypothetical shift would be openly beating and raping government officials who take kick backs. We need to be clear that this shift won't just be "we're going to universal healthcare", it's also "and if you fuck with this, you're going to burn". While UH represents an amazing opportunity for the US to improve, it also represents an amazing opportunity for no bid contracts just like we see in the military industrial complex. The military health care complex cannot form.

ASU2003

I don't know how many of those people are not children of a working parent(s), retirees, wealthy enough to not work, stay-at-home parents or other people that the worker cares about and would be willing to pay for?

Yes, there are a bunch of people who might be taking a break from work, raising a kid, or a bunch of other things that aren't offensive to society.

It is the slackers, drug-dealers, illegal immigrants, drug users, lazy people, and other people that would abuse the system and use more health care than they would pay for.

The other part is, would this drive innovations that cure disease instead of treating it? I doubt some cheap cure would come out right now, when they could get big $$$ month after month from treating the symptoms.

Whatever the outcome, I hope that the discussion is productive and people don't care about who has the ideas, but what their ideas are.


This is the other side of the coin. Would the government tell you which doctor to go to because they are the cheapest? Or would the government set the price that doctors can charge? I don't know how you would control prices and if the experience that doctors have, their success rates, how many patients they see, or what speciality they are would dictate how much they get paid. I would like to see a list from every doctor for how much they would charge for each procedure on-line. They can't do it now because there are different rates for different people and their insurance status. I don't have a problem with the amount of money that doctors currently make, or the quality of care. But it is the insurance companies and lobbyists that need to be dealt with.

Jenna

I'm for Universal Health care 100%. In fact, I don't think Hillary or any of the democratic candidates are doing enough - although I know proposing ridding the country of all private providers would be very difficult.

I'm not a socialist, but I feel the government SHOULD supply everyone with health care. I don't care if that means I have to pay more taxes.

Hillary Clinton became the second largest recipient in the Senate of health care industry contributions. This happened after health care providers spent $100 million dollars to defeat Hillary's health care plan while Bill Clinton was in office.

Unfortunately, most of the upcoming candidates are all from BIG money.

roachboy

this is a good point that should be repeated.
so far, it doesnt seem as if folk from the right are spending a whole lot of effort thinking about this matter, simply because the ways arguments are framed does not appear to have any contact with the content of clinton's proposal. you'd think the proposal would be the topic of the discussion and not vague anxieties about being "enslaved" (pick your functional equivalent term) by the state.

basic health care is a fundamental human right, it seems to me.
the variable is the mode that gets us from here to there.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Jenna

Amen!

Cynthetiq

I didn't buy into it in 1992 when I didn't have any healthcare coverage and could have used it.

No, I got off my ass and took a job that gave me benefits instead of an hourly FTE with no sick days, no vacation days. I didn't want to work in the jobs that I have at that point in time in my life. But the trade off was benefits versus my ego. My ego doesn't pay the bills, nor does it get me better healthcare or better education. My own initiative and drive does. I'm not interested in picking up the slack for someone else.

I bettered my life without government intervention.

I don't find basic health care a fundamental right, I find emergency services a fundamental right, but not basic health care because who defines what basic means?

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Bill O'Rights

Interesting. Because, as I was reading the previous posts, I found myself wondering pretty much the same thing. What exactly is the definition of "basic health care"? Certainly emergency services, vacinations, perhaps an annual physical exam. I have no interest in paying for someone's boob job, nose job, or botox injection. What about dental care? Is that covered as well? If so, (and it probably should be) then again, up to what point? Is orthodontia covered? What about caps, crowns and bridgework? Again, I'm not interested in paying for someone's "bleaching".

I have no inherent problem with universal healthcare as a concept. The government took care of my health care when I was in the service, and they did a pretty respectable job of it. I just know that for everyone that truly benefits from such a system, will come another that finds a way to abuse it. Still, the human animal should take care of it's own.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

seretogis

An individual's right holds power so long as it does not violate another's rights. I have a right to exchange goods and services with an employer who wishes to employ me. Part of that is healthcare coverage. To force me to a) use, b) pay for someone else's healthcare violates my rights as an individual. Universal healthcare should be a voluntarily-entered-into system supported by voluntary tax-deductible contributions.

My first amendment right to assembly does not give me the right to assemble in my neighbor's living room, because that violates his rights. Don't succumb to the temptation to be lazy and sacrifice one person's rights for another.

__________________
seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

Willravel

You still didn't address my point, seretogis. Would you opt out of police and fire protection and pay slightly less taxes? Would you opt out of paying for streets and sidewalks and stop driving or leaving your home?

You're already getting socialized services, and I don't see you complaining. Most people didn't start complaining about prisons until they were privatized, and now they are one of the biggest messes in the US.

roachboy

universal health care is basically "the human animal taking care of its own"...

the only stumbling block here is that folk insist on using a very strange understanding of the individual as separate from society and then work out even stranger arguments that present the possibility of universal health care as some kind of affliction----or an impediment to gumption and Individual Achievement.

personally, i find all these arguments to be beside the point: for example, nothing changes about one's Gumption Leading to Individual Achievement if there is universal health care.


why should not some of the suplusses generated by american capitalism be redirected into making something like a decent quality of life available to all?

and where does the idea come from that universal health care would be a will-nilly affair in which any number of people can get cosmetic surgery gratis?
i dont recall that being featured in any proposal.
but maybe its in the fine print.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

mixedmedia

For all of you with nice $10-$20 co-pays, ready yourselves for the day when your company pulls the rug out from under you. Health insurance expenses for employee coverage are steadily rising. The company I work for switched from a 'traditional' health care plan (they paid all the costs and our co-pay was $20) to a HSA plan with a $2200 deductible almost two years ago. So in essence, I am being paid less money than I was when I was hired. From what I understand, this is becoming more and more common as the cost of providing coverage is becoming too onerous - especially among small businesses - so the costs of most non-catastrophic medical care are being transferred to the employees. As a single mother, this has been a real burden - especially this past year in which we have needed a lot of medical care.

I will pay more taxes not to be put into the position of questioning which is more important - taking the child who has been throwing up all morning to the doctor or buying food for the week. These are not imaginary scenarios taking place only in impoverished homes or among the unemployed. And it's only going to get worse.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

kutulu

I don't mean to pick on you but I'm so sick of seeing this type of statement all over the internet: "I did x and therefore those that didn't are lazy" There is no logical basis for it. Yes our system gives opportunities to individuals that have drive and some luck but regardless of individual performances the group that they rose from remains.

We could give all the career cashiers, construction workers, waiters, etc. college degrees and job skills and it wouldn't make a difference. There are only so many jobs available that give good benefits. The end result is that we'd have millions of college educated career cashiers, construction workers, and waiters.

The "I did x and therefore those that didn't are lazy" is illogical and does nothing to address the real issue. The reality is that no matter what the individuals do, there will always be low paying jobs out there and the workers aren't going to get coverage.

Willravel

Individual Success Fallacy
1. Person A describes a specific situation where he or she has done something successful.
2. Therefore anyone who hasn't done that specific successful thing is lazy.

JustJess

1. Elective surgery should remain… elective. Not covered. You can purchase outside insurance for that.

a. Roe vs. Wade is still in effect. However, some regulation should be in place. Perhaps… first one’s free, after that you have to pay it in full? To avoid being used as birth control.

2. Universal Healthcare should cover:

a. Well-person visits 2x year
b. All vaccinations
c. Emergency services
d. Specialists with referral from PCP
e. Dental check ups

i. Surgeries covered if necessary
ii. Braces for function okay, for looks, not covered

f. Surgeries in general covered

3. In order for this to happen:

a.Hospitals have far larger overheads than you realize.

i. Equipment and medicine: Medical equipment is far more costly than necessary, and pharmaceutical companies should NEVER have been allowed to be for profit. Their costs are astronomical and affect every aspect of healthcare.

1.See prescription coverage costs to pts. as well.

ii. Wages: Doctors get paid too much.

1.However… malpractice insurance is sky high.

a. More penalties for frivolous suits!!
b. More internal discipline for shoddy doctors!
c. Better QA to avoid this shit in the first place.

2.Cost of schooling is ridiculous

a. College costs in general are prohibitive. System needs overhauling.
b. Perhaps consider free tuition for primary care physicians/PAs. Major shortage.

iii. Emergency Services

1.While they should be available to all, being available to all is a huge cost to hospitals, and is the biggest reason they are so often in the red.

iv. That being said, I doubt their CEOs need high 6-figure salaries either.

b. We need to address our own sense of entitlement.

i. Americans don’t like to wait… for anything. From the basic check up to the more urgent trauma, we wouldn’t like to wait any more than we already do.

ii. Paying taxes for UHC is similar to the police idea, and providing preventative care cuts down on overall costs of managing diseases.

4. Cyn, I swear to god, if I hear that fricking argument from you ever again, I will come down to your apt. and smack you. Let me know when you’re a farm worker who clearly has no company to provide health insurance, or when you’re anything other than a man with opportunities to work jobs that provide insurance for you. It’s a lot cheaper to provide insurance that it is clean up the mess caused by not having it.

That is a specious bullshit argument that just lets people feel superior rather than addressing the underlying issues – like the fact that our society is ill-equipped for people who aren’t middle class.

That's all... for now.

__________________
My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.

Willravel

Great post, JJ. But, I think the CEOs have 7 figure incomes. I remember reading somewhere that George C. Halvorson, CEO of Kaiser, a non-profit organization, brings home tens of millions a year (so even 8 figures). Tens of millions, btw, could pay for a lot of surgeries.

Cynthetiq

No, I have not said that anyone was lazy. I stated simply it wasn't acceptable to me any longer so I changed what I could change which is my job career and path.

You can complain if you don't get a raise if promotions are offered to you and you decline them. that's not lazy that called CHOICES.

As far as construction workers and cashiers, most of the ones that I known are union, they have benefits.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

flstf

I also remember when medical insurance and health care was very affordable. I wonder what has happened to cause the costs to get so out of control.

Perhaps people are using health care services much more than years ago. As I recall we hardly ever went to the doctor and a prescription was a very rare thing to get. I read somewhere that today the average family gets 9 prescriptions a year. I imagine this also requires a lot of doctor visits.

We hardly ever watch commercial TV anymore but we do watch the evening news shows most days. It seems that every other commercial is for some prescription drug with the message "ask you doctor if XYZ drug is right for you". I wonder how many millions of people are getting "hard on" and "shaky leg" pills paid for with their insurance.

I think if we go to a universal health care system that something will have to be done to reduce the number of prescriptions and therefore doctor visits covered. I could be all wrong and people really need all these prescriptions but I doubt it.

Cynthetiq

I did work in a low wage garment factory for 3 years. The people who worked alongside me STILL work there to this day and do not have health coverage. I took a man to ER who sliced his finger off with a 12" garment cutting blade. He paid for that visit with cash.

THEY chose to stay at that company. Some of these people are very smart and intelligent people. They CHOSE to stay at that company that provides NO INSURANCE benefits, even to the principal owners. I have helped a few of those people move from that company to companies that do provide benefits.

It's called choices. Plain and simple. Skogafoss' mother doesn't have many because she made OTHER choices that limited her current ones.

You could have easily continued to pursue you a different career when you came out of college, but you wanted things that made you make choices you didn't want to make.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Willravel

What we're all saying is that while you may have had that opportunity, not everyone else does. Some people are very much stuck and have zero options for getting health insurance. There's a reason 45 million Americans don't have health coverage, and I have to tell you it's not because they all just don't think they need it.
Complaint could easily end up with the person not only not having medical coverage, but food and a place to live.

JustJess

Cyn, I'm glad you got out and moved up etc. I'm glad it seemed so easy to you.

It's not that easy for lots of people - it's a gross simplification of a complex issue.

That's why I posted all of that... everyone acts like if we just make a healthcare tax, magically it will work to have Universal Healthcare. That's just a fallacy. There are a lot of complications in the way of that.

__________________
My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.

Cynthetiq

you know some of those stuck 45 million people are the people who didn't apply themselves in school. They didn't bother to take advantage of opportunities presented to them because maybe it was too far of a drive or commute or the work was too hard. Again, choices. When do you stop having to pay for the choices you've made in life? In my opinion, when they put the dirt on top of your cold dead body. Until that point in time, no sympathy from me as to the fact that your choices are limited by your education, your lack of skills, legal work status, or because your mom didn't hug you enough as a child.

Those that legitimately need some sort of healthcare are provided for, in NY state we have a program that provides healthcare for all children under a particular age. Medicaid paid for my grandmother who recently died, my current maternal grandmother and grandfather gets benefits. They MOVED from NY state to Las Vegas Nevada because the benefits and cost of living would be better for them.

Again, choices they made. For the children a social program to help them out since they don't have the capacity nor ability to deal with insurnace companies.

Disabled people? They have health coverage as well. My mother in law is covered by the state when she needs to see the doctor. It's a choice for her to make between buying something she wants (no not food or rent) and going to the doctor. Again, choices.

It was not easy. It was hard work and again it was choices.

There are people I know who were laid off in 2000 who still don't have jobs, not because they are lazy but because they choose not to work. They cannot command the same salary or title they had. So they have no healthcare coverage after COBRA stopped. They didn't even wish to take a temporary job. So they've sold their invenstments, dipped into their retirement funds.

I'm supposed to finance their healthcare when they are old? No thank you I'm not interested in helping someone that wasn't or isnt' interested in helping themselves.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Rekna

How do you know they didn't try hard in school? How do you know the school even taught them anything? How do you know they weren't helping raise 5 kids in a single parent family and thus couldn't concentrate on school? You are generalizing based on a bias that you have. Not everyone in the world has the same opportunities as you did and the reason for this isn't necessarily their fault.