Israel invades Lebanon, Hezbollah attacks N. Israel - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Ustwo · 07-14-2006, 12:15 PM

I don't have time for a full reply but what Lebanon wants is not an issue.

If Hezbola is attacking Israel out of Lebanon and the Lebanese government can not/does not stop them, it would be 'nice' if the Lebanese would invite help, but its by no means required. If some guy is shooting out of your neighbors window at your house and your neighbor does nothing to stop it, do you have to wait for them to invite you into their home before you do something about it?

abaya · 07-14-2006, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

If some guy is shooting out of your neighbors window at your house and your neighbor does nothing to stop it, do you have to wait for them to invite you into their home before you do something about it?

I agree with this logic; however, the missing part here is that while the gun may be aimed out of the neighbor's window, there is a remote control on that gun... and it's being operated from a house a few streets over. To go and annihilate your neighbor's house (where the majority of the residents have no means of controlling the gunfire) instead of training your crosshairs on the remote operators a few streets away... is a fucking waste of time, resources, and human beings.

I'll ask it again: why doesn't anyone call for mighty Israel to bomb Hezbollah's hideouts in Syria? Iran? Why does Lebanon "deserve" to receive ALL of the punishment, when clearly, its own citizens would love to punish Hezbollah too, if at all possible?

raeanna74 · 07-14-2006, 12:56 PM

This is a conflict that has been escalating and looming for almost 50 years. It will not be over until Israel has been declared victorious by all or until Israel is completely obliterated. There will be no middle ground for the arab countries. I have a friend who was shot 6 times in the back, paralyzed from the waist down because of it and he has been kept from returning to his home country (Lebanon) for 28 years because he had been targeted by the terrorist groups there. He was openly pro-Isreali then and his the terrorists thought his sentiments worth obliterating by shooting a man in the back. The mentality has not changed much. There is very little in this current conflict here that is new news.

I personally believe that when the U.S. decides to turn their back on Isreal we will become non-existant in the world politics. Any respect other countries may have for us will be lost. The U.S has backed Isreal for those 50 some years. To change our mind now would signal weakness to other countries. That's just my 2-cents.

roachboy · 07-14-2006, 01:15 PM

having already grown tired to the simplistic information--linked to simplistic views--on this attack, i'm going to start simply posting information from various sources.

there's this analysis from the sf chronicle, for example:

Quote:

WHY ISRAEL HIT BACK SO HARD
U.S. IS KEY: Despite region's rocky relations with Bush, experts say he must step up

Anna Badkhen, Chronicle Staff Writer

Friday, July 14, 2006

Printable Version
Email This Article

As the fighting in the Middle East threatens to turn into a regional crisis, only one power seems to be able to contain the conflict, experts say: the United States.

"No one can do it except for us," said James Zogby, president of the Arab American Institute in Washington. "If we don't do it, this thing can become a broader regional conflict."

After mostly watching from the sidelines as Israeli troops attacked Hamas strongholds in the Gaza Strip in recent weeks, the White House weighed in Thursday with strong support of Israel's attacks in Lebanon and a warning to Syria to rein in Hezbollah militants in southern Lebanon and Hamas militants in Gaza.

"Israel has a right to defend herself," Bush said at a joint news conference with German Chancellor Angela Merkel in Rostock, Germany. "Every nation must defend herself against terrorist attacks and the killing of innocent life."

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice warned Syria that "this is a situation that can be resolved if parties take responsible actions."

But some experts warn that the Bush administration's diplomatic options may be stretched too thin to mediate effectively and prevent major bloodletting.

The United States' ability to mediate as Israel, Hamas and Hezbollah "show that (they) can inflict greater harm on the other, and (are) not afraid of the harm that can be inflicted on them" is thwarted by Washington's lack of influence over any of the participants other than Israel, said Robert Malley, an expert on the region with the International Crisis Group.

"The real awkwardness is that the United States doesn't have leverage over (most of the warring) parties. It also has no contact with them," said Malley, who was a key member of then-President Bill Clinton's negotiating team at Camp David in 2000.

The United States considers both Hamas and Hezbollah terrorist organizations and refuses to deal with either of them. It is involved in a diplomatic standoff with Iran over that nation's nuclear program and has had no diplomatic relations with Syria since February 2005, when Washington called back its ambassador in Damascus in an effort to pressure Syria to withdraw its troops from Lebanon and to stop militants from crossing into Iraq.

"All they can do is engage in rhetorical diplomacy, asking parties to show restraint and telling Syria without talking to it that it needs to act responsibly. It only goes so far," Malley said.

Bush's strong words of support for Israel's retaliation also put on the line Washington's hopes that the European Union would join it in condemning Iran's nuclear ambitions and North Korea's long-range missile test at the Group of Eight summit in St. Petersburg, Russia, this weekend. Both the European Union and Russia sharply criticized Israel for launching an attack on Lebanon.

By supporting Israel, the administration also is losing its standing with the Lebanese public and the fragile democratic government in Beirut -- which has been Bush's poster boy for Western-style democracy in the Middle East, experts said.

"They believed that they were the center of the Bush administration's democratization program, and to suddenly have their international civilian airport bombed without much protest from the U.S. is pretty shocking for the Lebanese," said Jon Alterman, director of the Middle East Program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington.

Clayton Swisher, an expert at the Middle East Institute who was in Lebanon last week, said the disillusionment with the United States there has been brewing for some time.

"Christians in Lebanon are trying to distance themselves from America and forging a Christian-Shia alliance," Swisher said, referring to Hezbollah, a Shiite militant group. "These things, they flash like wildfire in the region, much faster than the Bush administration can catch up with."

Although Rice urged Israel to exercise restraint in its attacks against Lebanon, she did not specifically criticize it for the bombing of Beirut's civilian international airport and other targets. "I am not going to try to judge every single act," she said.

And yet despite those limitations, experts agree that the United States is best fit to contain the conflict.

"As the people with the luxury of strategic thinking, we need to impose some sort of strategic vision ... because everyone else is flailing," Alterman said.

One way to help quench the conflict, he added, would be to use public statements to "get messages back and forth to Iran," which wants to establish itself as a regional superpower, and to talk to Hezbollah through the government in Beirut.

"We have (indirect) ways to talk to everybody," he said.

The administration also could urge Beirut to move Lebanese troops to the south of the country, where there currently is no government presence and Hezbollah fighters are in control, said David Makovsky, an expert on the region at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy.

This would reduce Hezbollah's influence in southern Lebanon, where Lebanese troops did not deploy because of the region's occupation, first by Israeli troops, then by Syrian. "This is the moment in time to turn the crisis into an opportunity," Makovsky said. "We're sort of conditioned to pessimism in the Middle East, but everything's not lost."

source: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...NGIBJV7MB1.DTL

so the states should do something to contain this, but it cant--because of iraq--and wont--because of the particular...um....nature of this administration.

meanwhile, there is this press compiling service in english, which gives a range of views on what is happening. i bit the above article from here...

http://www.beirutnews.com/

if you read french, this paper is interesting:

http://www.lorient-lejour.com.lb/pag...page=main-page

i'd be interested to hear what folk with closer contact with lebanese politics make of this as well:

http://yalibnan.com/site/archives/20...everending.php

abaya · 07-14-2006, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raeanna74

It will not be over until Israel has been declared victorious by all or until Israel is completely obliterated. There will be no middle ground for the arab countries. -snip- Any respect other countries may have for us will be lost. The U.S has backed Isreal for those 50 some years. To change our mind now would signal weakness to other countries.

That's just it, Raeanna... it's a lose-lose situation, as it stands. You said it in your own post; there is no middle ground for the Arab countries. However, at this point there is also no middle ground for the U.S. on Israel.. and for that, I find no good explanation.

To expect the Arab countries to ever unconditionally accept Israel, especially without a Palestinian state, is to demand that they signal their own weakness and irrelevance to world politics. How can anyone possibly expect them to do something that we as a country cannot seem to do, ourselves? I'm reminded of that scene at the beginning of Gladiator (I know, I know, but the movie did have a few choice lines): just as the Romans are about to conquer the "barbarians" in Germania, there is an exchange between Maximus and his officers.

Quintus: "People should know when they're conquered."
[pause]
Maximus: "Would you, Quintus? Would I?"

NO ONE wants to back down, even when it means their own destruction. But how can we possibly base our entire foreign policy on the idea that "that's what we've always done, and if we do anything different, no one will respect us." Who respects us now, in the world? Israel? Of course they respect us; what choice do they have? But we've *lost* respect in the world for supporting Israel, not gained it.

The only way out would be for both the Arab countries and the US to somehow be willing to confess the futility of their unchanging stances, agree that the whole situation is a clusterfuck, and try something completely different. Together.

Otherwise, this whole damn thing is going to go on in its sisyphean madness, until someone hits the red button and the whole planet gets blown to shit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

By supporting Israel, the administration also is losing its standing with the Lebanese public and the fragile democratic government in Beirut -- which has been Bush's poster boy for Western-style democracy in the Middle East, experts said.

"They believed that they were the center of the Bush administration's democratization program, and to suddenly have their international civilian airport bombed without much protest from the U.S. is pretty shocking for the Lebanese," said Jon Alterman, director of the Middle East Program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington.

roachboy, I'm listening to you. And I appreciate your posts. This quote especially, taken from the article you posted, is very illustrative... I'd like to see discussion on this topic in particular. The fair-weather friendedness of the current administration. So much for our moral American high-horse.

Where is everyone else on this thread?? There have got to be more opinions out there than just a handful...

Willravel · 07-14-2006, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaya

Where is everyone else on this thread?? There have got to be more opinions out there than just a handful...

Oh I have plenty of opinions. I think that Israel should give up land and allow 100% autonomy to an independant Palestinian State. I think that Jerusulum should be international territory. I think that Israel should apologize to Lebenon for the recent attacks, which were absurdly disprportional to the kidnapping of the soldiers. I think that radical groups that you find in Syria and Palestine would become less willing to do things like suicide bombs if they were treated like human beings. Are they innocent? God, no. Blood coveres both sides. But the point is that this attack is symptomatic of a much larger problem. Israel is a terrorist state. Hezbollah is a terrorist group. What's the difference? It's like the pot bombing the whole stove, including innocent saucepans because the kettle is black. If that makes sense.

Most of all, I think that the US government should FINALLY either leave Israel on their own, or we should stop them from doing shit like bombing airports and buldozing communities. No more military aid. They have shown again and again that they are about as responsible as the Bush administration when it comes to military power.

Painted · 07-14-2006, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

Oh I have plenty of opinions. I think that Israel should give up land and allow 100% autonomy to an independant Palestinian State. I think that Jerusulum should be international territory. I think that Israel should apologize to Lebenon for the recent attacks, which were absurdly disprportional to the kidnapping of the soldiers. I think that radical groups that you find in Syria and Palestine would become less willing to do things like suicide bombs if they were treated like human beings. Are they innocent? God, no. Blood coveres both sides. But the point is that this attack is symptomatic of a much larger problem. Israel is a terrorist state. Hezbollah is a terrorist group. What's the difference? It's like the pot bombing the whole stove, including innocent saucepans because the kettle is black. If that makes sense.

Most of all, I think that the US government should FINALLY either leave Israel on their own, or we should stop them from doing shit like bombing airports and buldozing communities. No more military aid. They have shown again and again that they are about as responsible as the Bush administration when it comes to military power.

The only problem with the above is that those "radical groups" will never live peacefully with the state of Israel, as long as it exists. Name one year of peace between any given terrorist group and Israel. These terrorists don't want apologies, they want Israeli deaths, and public support.

Willravel · 07-14-2006, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Painted

The only problem with the above is that those "radical groups" will never live peacefully with the state of Israel, as long as it exists. Name one year of peace between any given terrorist group and Israel. These terrorists don't want apologies, they want Israeli deaths, and public support.

It's not about apologies at all, it's about reasonable concessions. Do you remember the cold war? Do you remember all of the obvious pgopoganda handed down to us? "Communists hate us and our way of life!" "Communists are Godless!!" "Communists will stop at nothing!!" The reason that they used to say that is to dehumanize the enemy so that it is more palatable to kill them. The simple fact is that there are no "evil enemies of freedom who will stop at nothing". There is a logical reason that these people go out and do what they do. Palestinians don't strap bombs to themselves because they are crazy or evil...they do it as a final desperate act to fight for freedom. These terrorists do ahve demands, and it's not as simple as "destroy Israel" or "death to the infadels". They want a home and a government. They want peace. If given the opportunity, I suspect that they would be willing to stop fighting.

No one wants to go to war (save for my very own president).

OzOz · 07-14-2006, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaya

To expect the Arab countries to ever unconditionally accept Israel, especially without a Palestinian state, is to demand that they signal their own weakness and irrelevance to world politics.

That's one thing I just don't understand, if that's what the Arabs are (supposedly) concerned about: Why isn't there already a Palestinian state? That's what the original partition plan offered back in the 1940's. At any time from then up until June, 1967 the Arabs could have established a Palestinian state with the simple stroke of a pen. It's only become an issue when it's been something that's useful for hitting Israel. Before 1967, it seems to me that the Arabs (and practically everyone else) didn't give a damn.

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

They want a home and a government. They want peace. If given the opportunity, I suspect that they would be willing to stop fighting.

That works better on the other side of the equation, willravel. The Palestinians have already had at least two "roadmaps" or whatever anyone wants to call them, offering them basically their own government. (Oslo, anyone?) In response to Oslo, the Israelis ended their occupation of many Palestinian communities (for example, Jenin). Look what they got as a result - four years of wondering whether this evening out for dinner and dancing, or this trip to work on their usual bus, would be their last, all courtesy of their friendly neighbourhood "Partners For Peace".

On the other side, what the Israelis offered Egypt was the return of the Sinai in return for peace. Israel kept its side of the bargain. Officially, Egypt has done the same. (Unofficially is another question.)

Given the opportunity, I think the Israelis would be more likely to stop fighting than the Palestinians would, unless you're taking a very long-term view.

Xazy · 07-14-2006, 04:09 PM

Hezbalah, is a part of the Lebanon government. They even have 2 cabinet members who are a part of that terrorist group. If an organization that is a part of the government attacks the neighboring country, capturing soldiers of the neighboring country, that is an act of war.

Israel took out the airport, the road, and boat, to stop the transportation of the kidnapped soldiers. There should be no negotiating with terrorists. They have asked for thousands of prisoners back in return for a handful, of people that they have siezed in an act of war. I feel bad for the reguler citizens there, but it is their governments fault for not complying and disarming the terrorist group Hezballah, and allowing them to be such a powerful force in their country.

Infinite_Loser · 07-14-2006, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

Most of all, I think that the US government should FINALLY either leave Israel on their own, or we should stop them from doing shit like bombing airports and buldozing communities. No more military aid. They have shown again and again that they are about as responsible as the Bush administration when it comes to military power.

Israel has made many concessions to show that they're serious about peace in the Middle East. Most of the Arab states have made no such concessions, some have openly stated that they wish to see the death of Israel and others have supported and continue to support local terrorist groups which carry out attacks against Israelis.

Israel is basically surronded by nations which not only refuse to acknowledge their right to exist, but openly (All right. Some do it covertly) carry out attacks against the Israeli nation. Sooner or later, one has to say enough is enough. In my opinion, Israel finally reached that point. The United States has supported Israel for 50+ years. To suddenly stop supporting them now would be ridiculous, especially when examing the reasons for Israel's recent actions.

abaya · 07-14-2006, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser

The United States has supported Israel for 50+ years. To suddenly stop supporting them now would be ridiculous, especially when examing the reasons for Israel's recent actions.

I don't think anyone with sufficient knowledge of the situation would suggest that the U.S. suddenly withdraw all support for Israel. I am certainly not advocating such an action; there must be moderation in any solution.

For example, why can't we withdraw even a minor percentage of our support, at least to the point where Israel's military is not intimately woven with our own and they are forced to stand just a *little* bit on their own, without the extreme crutch of the U.S.? I just don't see why Israel deserves such 100% unconditional support from the U.S.; we don't have that kind of relationship with any other nation in the world, and we shouldn't.

Why not support Israel 75%, or hell, even 90%? Just as an experiment. To see if they can hold a bit of their own.

On a different note, I'd like to see more responses to my question re: if Israel *truly* wants to destroy Hezbollah, why are they are not striking Syria and Iran directly?

Gatorade Frost · 07-14-2006, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abaya

On a different note, I'd like to see more responses to my question re: if Israel *truly* wants to destroy Hezbollah, why are they are not striking Syria and Iran directly?

My guess is that they're testing the waters. Attacking Iran directly would draw in a much larger war. Bombing some places in lebanon probably won't do much aside from put some attention on what's going on in the ME. Attacking Iran and Syria will probably enlarge the war quite a bit more.

Of course, it's just begun, so they may end up striking Syria and Iran.

abaya · 07-14-2006, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gatorade Frost

Bombing some places in lebanon probably won't do much aside from put some attention on what's going on in the ME.

Easy to say, considering you're not Lebanese and you (or your family) are not living there in fear right now.

That's just it... Lebanon is a pawn right now. No one really cares what happens to that country... but oh, how that would change if you had been to Beirut, if you had seen how long it's taken to reconstruct so much damage from 15 years ago. And now it's all blown to shit again.

And that's just infrastructure; I'm not even talking about the psychological trauma that has been reintroduced to the Lebanese people as a result of these strikes.

Anyway, thanks for responding Frost. If the Israelis really had balls, though, they'd have gone straight fot the jugular. The fact that they are so stuck on Lebanon is beyond me... unless there is something else going on. I'm not convinced that this is *all* about Hezbollah.

Infinite_Loser · 07-14-2006, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaya

For example, why can't we withdraw even a minor percentage of our support, at least to the point where Israel's military is not intimately woven with our own and they are forced to stand just a *little* bit on their own, without the extreme crutch of the U.S.? I just don't see why Israel deserves such 100% unconditional support from the U.S.; we don't have that kind of relationship with any other nation in the world, and we shouldn't.

Given Israel's location, I think that them having an extreme crutch is warranted.

Quote:

Why not support Israel 75%, or hell, even 90%? Just as an experiment. To see if they can hold a bit of their own.

You know as well as I do that they wouldn't be able to hold their own without full support from the United States. It's not as if Israel has an entire ocean seperating it from it's enemies; It's pretty much surrounded on all sides by those who wish to see it destroyed. If the United States withdrew any type of support, I'd guess that a few Arab nations would take advantage of the situation and attack Israel.

Besides, I'm not keen to see the same thing which happened to South Vietnam happen to Israel.

Quote:

On a different note, I'd like to see more responses to my question re: if Israel *truly* wants to destroy Hezbollah, why are they are not striking Syria and Iran directly?

As it stands, not many Arab nations support Hezbollah (At least not openly), thus keeping the conflict between Israel and Lebanon. If Israel were attack Iran or Syria, that would probably draw quite a few Arab nations into a war against Israel, and that wouldn't be a smart idea on the part of Israel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaya

If the Israelis really had balls, though, they'd have gone straight fot the jugular. The fact that they are so stuck on Lebanon is beyond me... unless there is something else going on. I'm not convinced that this is *all* about Hezbollah.

There's a difference between having balls and being incredibly stupid. Openly attacking Iran or even Syria would be incredibly stupid.

abaya · 07-14-2006, 08:54 PM

Thanks for responding, Loser. My questions were, of course, mostly hypothetical; I realize the US could never actually withdraw its support from Israel. But can't we at least consider WHY that is the case? Why did we even act in the first place to establish a country that would never be able to stand on its own? How tenable is this whole set-up, in the long run? It has already been quite a long run, and it seems that it's no more tenable today than it was 50 years ago. Israel is entirely non-self sustaining. That is no way to go about running a country; even the poorest countries in Africa have more self-sustaining potential than Israel has.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser

There's a difference between having balls and being incredibly stupid. Openly attacking Iran or even Syria would be incredibly stupid.

I guess, to me, I don't see how attacking Lebanon *in this manner* (disproportionate force) is in any way non-stupid behavior. Don't get me wrong, I find Hezbollah's behavior to be equally reprehensible and stupid; they get equal treatment with Israel, in my book. But how can any nominally educated person go about thinking that this is the way disagreements should be settled? And yet, this is the way our world works, for the time being.

I know that. But it doesn't mean I like it, or that I will be silent about my dislike of it.

Meh, time to stop thinking about this for a while. Need to sleep.

flstf · 07-14-2006, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaya

So: why isn't Israel bombing Syria? Why aren't they bombing Iran? EVERYONE knows that these are the crucial supporters of Hezbollah; and yet Israel chooses to beat up its rather tiny northern neighbor. If Israel REALLY wants to get rid of Hezbollah, they'd better turn their rage on Syria and Iran. Now that, I would like to see. EDIT: In that case I wouldn't cheer on Israel any more than I would cheer on anyone else participating in a war, but I would certainly be less harsh on Israel in that situation than I am being now.

Please discuss. I'm most interested to hear all your opinions on that last question.

From what little I understand about the conflict (from newspapers and TV news) if this thing escalates Israel may very well go after Syria. I believe that if Iran directly attacks and does more than just provide weapons then the US will become directly involved as well. I don't think that either one of our political parties will allow Israel to be destroyed.

abaya · 07-15-2006, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flstf

I believe that if Iran directly attacks and does more than just provide weapons then the US will become directly involved as well. I don't think that either one of our political parties will allow Israel to be destroyed.

Well, wouldn't that fit nicely into world events. Somehow, I would not be surprised AT ALL if this was the outcome of this situation. And if that did indeed happen... ready for a draft, folks?

Gatorade Frost · 07-15-2006, 10:28 AM

I'd be suprised if we had a war with Iran that involved ground forces. I would suspect a LOT of bombing, but to invade Iran with ground forces would be insane if you asked me. Take out the nuclear power, their army, etc. using air support... Seems like the easiest way to do this.

Infinite_Loser · 07-15-2006, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaya

Well, wouldn't that fit nicely into world events. Somehow, I would not be surprised AT ALL if this was the outcome of this situation. And if that did indeed happen... ready for a draft, folks?

I doubt that Congress would re-instate the draft.

dlish · 07-15-2006, 04:23 PM

if israel's aim is to dibilitate hezbollah, i find it quite ironic that they hit the northern city of tripoli where there hezbollah is virtually non existant and where shiites are few and far between. the christian town of Jounieh was also hit. i find no reason for any justification of these cities where hezbollah does not exist.

can anyone show me the justification in bombings, if not only to terrorise an entire nation.

my wife is in the northern city of Tripoli at the moment. i talk to my wife in 2-3 times a day now. contrary to what you guys might see on tv, its a vastly different picture over there. the airport is closed, all ports are closed and the borders are closed. over 50 bridges have been bombed in the last 4 days, the continued killing of innocent civilians, here we still have people who regurgitate simple-minded trash about justification for the illegal bombardment of a nation.

you guys sit behind your computer screen in the comfort of your own home sipping ice tea and justifying how its ok for my wife and in laws to come under attack by israeli warplanes in a city that can in no way be a threat to israel. i was actually talking to her on the phone when the attack occured and they could see smoke billowing outside. the attack also happened lass than 500m where our house is in Tripoli where the port was attacked.

israels attack has been a calculated effort from day one, i just wasnt sure what. ive mentioned this at the start of the thread in the politics threan when referring to the attack on gaza.

i will try and keep you guys updated whenever i can.

abaya · 07-15-2006, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlishsguy

you guys sit behind your computer screen in the comfort of your own home sipping ice tea and justifying how its ok for my wife and in laws to come under attack by israeli warplanes in a city that can in no way be a threat to israel.

Not all of us are justifying this, dlishsguy. Ktspktsp is in virtually the same position as you, with his parents and sister stuck in Beirut and Jbeil. He's been on the phone with them several times a day as well; we know what you're going through. I hope your wife and family stay as safe as possible, and do keep us updated.

dlish · 07-15-2006, 05:30 PM

abaya

thank you for your concern. ive followed the thread, so im well aware that not everyone here thinks that the bombardments are justified.

i guess it's frustration stemming from the fact that im half a world away and i cant do anything about it. locked in by air sea and land by a bullying neighbour. their dream holiday turned into a nightmare.

many of my family members are holidaying there at the moment (other than my in laws) i have 3 uncles and an aunt in Mina which is in Tripoli as well as my wife and inlaws. (all up i have about 17 immediate family members in tripoli, not to mention the cousins and 2nd cousins and huge extended family all lebanese families have) so its quite daunting everytime i hear an update on the situation. ive also got distant relatives that live in the south, but i dont know much about their situation. last night it took me an hour and a half of constant dialling-redialling before i got through, so the phone lines are congested or down. the next worst thing the israelis could do is knock out the communication towers..then we'd really be fucked.

my thoughts are with Ktspktsp and his family. you really do know who your friends are when they call you to make sure everything is ok. even if its a quick phone call.

Willravel · 07-15-2006, 05:37 PM

My thoughts are with all victims and possible victims, and my malice and contempt are towards those who refuse to act like adults. How easily they sentence innocent people to death for petty political aims. It disgusts me.

Nirvana · 07-15-2006, 06:52 PM

hey guys.

Here are my views on this whole matter. I feel bad for the innocent lebanese people and israelis who have to deal with these attacks. I just want to say that before i go on.

Now, i want to say that the other arab countries don't care about the palestinians. they just flat out don't. the only people who care about the palestinians are palestinians. countries like syria and iran just flat out want israel gone. while in small numbers , jews were tolerated in the middle east. when numbers began to grow, they were despised. look up "the vanshing jews of the arab world" and learn about how jews were exiled from arab lands where their homes were and how they lived in israeli refugee camps until israel was able to take them in. look up things lirke the "farhud" and look up how the mufti of jerusalem worked with hitler in organizing an arab SS. also look at this article written by lebanese-american Joseph Farah. http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=24170
i think that if the israelis and palestinians can just discuss all of this without other arab countries or even muslim countries (pakistan meddles as much as the US does) somehting might develop.

Now i definetely think israel is going too far with these attacks. i understand their frustration with the fact that these militants are attacking their borders and that the lebanese government is not acting in any way to destroy them, but i feel that innocent lives are more important. i understand their strategy, but i just don't think its an effective one. and i really doubt that the israeli government or even people want to hurt lebanon deliberately becuase unlike popular beleif, israel is not tryint to expand and take over the arab world. i also agree that israel is wrong when bulldozing homes and many of my jewish and arab (also arabs and jews CAN be friends, i just think it needs to be out of the whole middle eastern context) friends agree with that fact. but before real peace talks happen, there needs to be a stop of the violence. you can't discuss peace while there are people being killed. that goes towards both sides. every time there seems to be some sort of peace deal, there is always a setback.

I just don't beleive this will ever happen. everyone needs to take actions into their own hands. and that's somehting i dont see happening soon.

ktspktsp · 07-15-2006, 06:52 PM

dlishsguy,

I hope your wife is able to return soon, and that your relatives stay safe.

And willravel (and a few others in this thread), thank you for caring thoughts.

My parents and sister are safe for now, but when the bombing is 2 miles away, what is "safe"?

This isn't really about two kidnapped soldiers. It's more about destroying a country's spirit, infrastructure, economy and potential. And causing the death of 100+ civilians so far (some of them Israelis too). It's like being beaten up by a bully and just waiting for him to be done, since no one will help you (well, the UN could pass a resolution to enforce a cease-fire, but Bush "doesn't want to make military decisions for Israel", or something like that, so any resolution would be vetoed).

To echo another point by dlishsguy, the one good this I saw come out of this is how many friends I have that care about me and my family. It is a blessing (and this is coming from an atheist

).

Alright, armchair generals, you can go back to your recipes of domination and destruction now.

(why yes, I am a bit bitter)

Willravel · 07-15-2006, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nirvana

the only people who care about the palestinians are palestinians...

and me.

Nirvana, I agree that Israel has every right to be frustrated, but I agree a lot more that this is obvious overreaction. The innocent lives are ALWAYS more important, and should be the first thing on everyone's mind, espically the Israeli government, but they aren't(sorry for the run-on sentence). Israel is always so mad when innocent Israli people die beause of political bombings and such, then they turn around and kill dozens of innocent people over military politics. Hypocritical much? (Willravel puts his father pants on) They need a time out. The whole region needs a time out. They need to go to their respective corners and count backwards from 10. The terrorist organization Hezbollah, which is responsible for numerous terrorist attacks, should be simply condemned by the Lebanese government. Many, many people in Lebanon hate them for what they do. They cause tremendous instability, and do so much more harm than good. Hezbollah *may* not even exist if it weren't for Israel invading and occupying Southern Lebanon, though.

Bottom line: the Hezbollah network and the Israeli government are forcing war on each other and their neighbors. It's wrong. Damn both of them, and I hope that they both get overthrown.

abaya · 07-15-2006, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

Bottom line: the Hezbollah network and the Israeli government are forcing war on each other and their neighbors. It's wrong. Damn both of them, and I hope that they both get overthrown.

As I said in my journal... (quoting another Will):

"A plague o' both your houses!"

Nirvana · 07-15-2006, 07:21 PM

ktspktsp. i hope your family get out of this ok and unharmed. while i don't agree with your opinions about israel, i do hope they are ok.

we moved on from the style forum into the political arena, willravel. I do agree that this is an overreaction as well. while i say that, i do understand what they are trying to do and as i said before,, i just dont think this is an effective strategy. oh when i said no one cares about the palestinians, i meant the arab governments in the middle east who claim to be fighting for the rights of the palestinians. i myself hope they can live in peace one day.

israel has always been a country whpo has beenm on the defensive. it has to fight enemies on all borders. when you are constantly being attacked, u react and you react hard. the same thing can and should be said about the palestinians, but two wrongs dont make a right. it is a vicious cycle.

also i hear this idea that israel is taking advantage of their military might to crush the palestinians. its israel against the entire middle east plus the hypocritical EU. there are stuck and they dont know how to get out. they cant fight every single country out there thats sending terroists to attack in the "name of the palestinian cause".

Infinite_Loser · 07-15-2006, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

Bottom line: the Hezbollah network and the Israeli government are forcing war on each other and their neighbors. It's wrong. Damn both of them, and I hope that they both get overthrown.

What exactly has Israel done wrong? No matter what country Israel attacks, someone will find a reason to blame Israel for it's actions.

In a nutshell, Israel has made concession after concession and what they get in return is kidnappings, bombings and other terrorist attacks. It's hard to make peace with someone who doesn't want to make peace with you.

Anyway, what do you believe Israel should have done in this situation? Diplomacy doesn't work (It never has) and ignoring the problem isn't an option, either. Therefore, what else are you left with?

Nirvana · 07-15-2006, 07:29 PM

alos the reason why israel is so mad about having their people being killed by these militants because it happens weekly. and the countries where these terrorists take refuge denounce their actions but secretly support them. while it is hypocritical, what are they to do. i mena right after the israelis gave land last year, what did the palestinians do. they destroyed the buildings that they could have live din. they burned down farms that they could have used to support themselves. they destroyed every single synogogue, which is not surprising, but the motivivation behind it is disgusting. and yet there are still attacks. even what israel does do somehting that many of the people who denounce israel consider right, they dont get any slack from their critics or the militants still commiting attacks to this day.

i agree infinite loser, what else are they to do. siplomacy will not work. every action israel takes, they get criticised for. i can guarantee that there are large factions out there that will not rest until israel and every jew is gone out of the middle east. this is not about the disputed lands. this is about israel as a whole.

Willravel · 07-15-2006, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser

What exactly has Israel done wrong?

What is this thread about? Israel has launched attacks on civilian targets in Lebanon. No matter what the excuse, it is ALWAYS wrong to target civilians.

These people are not members of the Hezbollah. They are normal people like you and me who have friends and jobs and lives. They did nothing against Israel and have had their worlds rocked. People have died horribly.

Let's put it like this: Let's say we have a scale, one the one side, we have two Israeli soldiers being kidnapped by the terrorist organization Hezbollah. One the other side we have the deaths of well over 100 innocent civilians in Lebanon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBC News

'Their bodies litter the road'
Lebanese civilians react as they look at the bodies of those killed
More than 80 Lebanese have died in the attacks so far
An Israeli air strike has killed at least 18 Lebanese civilians, including women and children, who were fleeing southern border areas. It is the deadliest single attack since the bombardment began on Wednesday.

Eyewitnesses have been explaining how events unfolded.

Families in the village of Marwahin are said to have been told by the Israeli army at around 0800 local time (0500 GMT) that they had just hours to leave.

Some 100 residents evacuated and headed for the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (Unifil) base to seek shelter, but were refused entry after officials were unable to confirm the warning by Israel.

'Under seige'

An eyewitness to the attack, Akram Ghannam, told al-Jazeera television that after being turned away from the UN base residents were forced to leave the village.

Ghannam said a pick-up truck and two cars full of children and elderly people left Marwahin for Tyre in southern Lebanon.

He said Israeli aircraft raided the vehicles.

UN peacekeepers inspect the vehicles hit in an Israeli air raid near Tyre, Lebanon
Two cars and a pick-up truck were hit in the raid

"The Israeli forces attacked them on the Shamma road and their bodies litter the road," he said.

Medical sources have said around half the passengers were children or teenagers.

Relatives have since blamed Unifil for the deaths, and some have pelted peacekeepers with stones in anger.

"If they had taken people in to begin with then they would never have died," Mohammed Oqla, speaking from a hospital where the injured were taken, told Reuters news agency.

Ghannam added: "We appeal to the Unifilor the Red Cross to take us in for if they do not do this while we are alive, they will be forced to collect the wounded and the dead on the Shamma road later on."

He said people in the village are now frightened.

"The people are scared and the Israelis continue to bombard the surroundings of Marwahin. Marwahin has been under siege since the morning".

Israel is wrong. Israel has done wrong. Let there be no doubt.

What should Israel have done? They have some of the best ground forces in the world, so why not use them? Contact the Lebanese government and ask for assitence in a multilatteral rescue. If the Lebanese refuse, tthen send them in anyway. Minimal possibility for collateral damage.

The way they are operating now, they maye very well have bombed the very soldiers they wante to save. They are bringing animosity upon themselves by the international community. They are killing innocent civilians. They are killing innocent civilians. They are killing innocent civilians.

Nirvana · 07-15-2006, 08:13 PM

while i agree they are wrong with their tactic in this "situation" and i have stated that before, i think the person before me is speaker on a broader scale, not just this one situation.

one has to think however, this is the exact thing that hezbollah wanted. this is the exact thing that they were trying to spark. israel unfortunately played right into their hand. if you read the statements that the leader of hesbollah made, you cna clearly see this was a highly calculated plan.

Infinite_Loser · 07-15-2006, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

What is this thread about? Israel has launched attacks on civilian targets in Lebanon. No matter what the excuse, it is ALWAYS wrong to target civilians.

Would you like me to post pictures of bombed Israeli homes? I could, but that'd be rather pointless.

Hezbollah's actions-- If carried out against any other country-- Would be considered an act of war. I can't speak for Israel, but I believe their aim is to cripple Hezbollah rather than to purposely kill innocent civilians. As bad as it sounds, there will always be civilian casualties in a skirmish such as this one. It's unavoidable.

Quote:

These people are not members of the Hezbollah. They are normal people like you and me who have friends and jobs and lives. They did nothing against Israel and have had their worlds rocked. People have died horribly.

Once again I repeat, as cynical as it sounds there will always be civilian casualities, no matter what precautions are taken beforehand. There is absolutely no way to target just the terrorists. Instead of blaming Israel, why don't you blame the Lebanese government for not taking a strong stand against Hezbollah? It's just my opinion, but it seems to me as it the Lebanese government cares more about destroying Israel than it does about it's own citizens.

Quote:

Let's put it like this: Let's say we have a scale, one the one side, we have two Israeli soldiers being kidnapped by the terrorist organization Hezbollah. One the other side we have the deaths of well over 100 innocent civilians in Lebanon.

This isn't just about two soldiers. It's basically the culmination of years of terrorist attacks against Israel, even amidst the concessions Israel has made in the search for peace.

Quote:

Israel is wrong. Israel has done wrong. Let there be no doubt.

I still don't see how Israel is wrong. How much abuse does one country have to take before saying enough is enough? If the United States-- Or pretty much any other country, for that matter-- Were in Israel's shoes, they would have bombed the living hell out of any and every country responsible for the continual attacks. It's a wonder that Israel didn't go on a bombing spree years ago.

Quote:

What should Israel have done? They have some of the best ground forces in the world, so why not use them? Contact the Lebanese government and ask for assitence in a multilatteral rescue. If the Lebanese refuse, tthen send them in anyway. Minimal possibility for collateral damage.

And we'd still end up where we are now. Therefore, I fail to see a difference.

Quote:

The way they are operating now, they maye very well have bombed the very soldiers they wante to save. They are bringing animosity upon themselves by the international community. They are killing innocent civilians. They are killing innocent civilians. They are killing innocent civilians.

Israel is basically reacting to years of terrorist attacks from numerous radical groups. I know I'm basically repeating myself, but if the Lebanese government cared about their citizens, then why haven't they done anything to kick Hezbollah out of the country? Why would the Lebanese government continue to willingly allow Hezbollah to carry out attacks against Israel while harboring them in their country? Why didn't they take the necessary precautions to ensure the safety of its citizens? Surely they had to realize that sooner or later Israel would retaliate, especially since Israel has pretty much always had an anti-terrorism stance?

If Lebanon cares about the destruction of Israel more than the welfare of its own citizens, then they have to accept the fact that they put their citizens at risk if Israel does decide on some type of military action.

Nirvana · 07-15-2006, 08:33 PM

actually i don't really want to be a prt of this discussion anymore. i will just leave it with hope that the people of israel and lebnon can get through this unfortunate series of events.

percy · 07-15-2006, 08:51 PM

Since the US has decided to stay out of this conflict, I wonder if they will get involved if the tables turn and Israel starts getting pounded.

Guess it depends on the price of a barrel of oil and how much Israel can keep the upperhand while oil profits go through the roof.

Willravel · 07-15-2006, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser

Would you like me to post pictures of bombed Israeli homes? I could, but that'd be rather pointless.

It would illustrate quite well that two wrongs don't make a right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser

Hezbollah's actions-- If carried out against any other country-- Would be considered an act of war. I can't speak for Israel, but I believe their aim is to cripple Hezbollah rather than to purposely kill innocent civilians. As bad as it sounds, there will always be civilian casualties in a skirmish such as this one. It's unavoidable.

Is Israel at war with Hezbollah or Lebanon? Because it looks to me like the latter is bearing the brunt of the attack.

If Israel were pointing their guns at Hezbollah soldiers and innocent Lebanese citizens were running by and got caught in the crossfire, then I might be able to understand that. That's not the case here. Israel is attacking Lebanon, not just Hezbollah.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser

Once again I repeat, as cynical as it sounds there will always be civilian casualities, no matter what precautions are taken beforehand. There is absolutely no way to target just the terrorists. Instead of blaming Israel, why don't you blame the Lebanese government for not taking a strong stand against Hezbollah? It's just my opinion, but it seems to me as it the Lebanese government cares more about destroying Israel than it does about it's own citizens.

That's not reflected by history. Lebanon took in Palestinian refugees during the Arab-Israeli conflict. Syria attacks some of the stronger Palestinian groups in Lebanon who are fighting the Maronite militias. Syria occupied Lebanon until last year. In 1978 Palestinian forces who had fled to Lebanon orchestrated cross-border attacks on Israel, so Israel invaded and occupied Lebanon (all because Lebaon was trying to help the Palestinians). The PLO ( a terrorist organization working indipendantly of the Lebanese government) set up shop in Lebanon and attacked Israel again in the early 80s. This is when Hezbollah was said to have formed. Israel ivaded Lebanon AGAIN. Israel didn't completly withdraw forces until 2000. Iran and Syria are the heavy influence on Hezbollah forces, not the Lebanese government, which on the whole is trying desperately to seperate itself from the Israel/Syria-Iran conflict. In order to remain neutral, the President must be a Maronite Catholic Christian, the Prime Minister must be a Sunni Muslim, and the Speaker of the Parliament must be a Shi'a Muslim. I think that's pretty brilliant. I see that as an honest step in the right direction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser

This isn't just about two soldiers. It's basically the culmination of years of terrorist attacks against Israel, even amidst the concessions Israel has made in the search for peace.

I like the analogy used before. Imagine you're getting shot at by your neighbor, but your neighbor has no control over the weapon. It's actually being controlled from down the street. What do you do? Do you attack your neightbor? Or do you go after the guys down the street? Israel went after it's neighbor.

You seem to think that because Israel has been through really bad stuff, that it's somehow okay to attack innocent civilians. Well it's not. Hezbollah attacked Israel, not the Lebanese people. The Lebanese people have been victimized enough already by arab and jew alike. I'm sick of it, and I've never even been to Lebanon.

Hezbollah = guilty
Lebanese civilians = innocent

...one of these things is not like the others.
1) Hezbollah
2) al Qaeda
3) PLO
4) Lebanese civilians

Infinite_Loser · 07-15-2006, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

It would illustrate quite well that two wrongs don't make a right.

Hezbollah bombs Israel because they want them destroyed. Israel bombs Lebanon is hopes of crippling Hezbollah.

I guess it's just me, but I see a difference.

Quote:

Is Israel at war with Hezbollah or Lebanon? Because it looks to me like the latter is bearing the brunt of the attack.

If Israel were pointing their guns at Hezbollah soldiers and innocent Lebanese citizens were running by and got caught in the crossfire, then I might be able to understand that. That's not the case here. Israel is attacking Lebanon, not just Hezbollah.

Hezbollah holds fourteen seats in the 128 member Lebanese parliament. If the terrorist group which almost weekly carries out some form of attack against Israelies openly holds some amount political power, it seems a good reason to go after Lebanon, does it not?

Quote:

That's not reflected by history. Lebanon took in Palestinian refugees during the Arab-Israeli conflict. Syria attacks some of the stronger Palestinian groups in Lebanon who are fighting the Maronite militias. Syria occupied Lebanon until last year. In 1978 Palestinian forces who had fled to Lebanon orchestrated cross-border attacks on Israel, so Israel invaded and occupied Lebanon (all because Lebaon was trying to help the Palestinians). The PLO ( a terrorist organization working indipendantly of the Lebanese government) set up shop in Lebanon and attacked Israel again in the early 80s. This is when Hezbollah was said to have formed. Israel ivaded Lebanon AGAIN. Israel didn't completly withdraw forces until 2000. Iran and Syria are the heavy influence on Hezbollah forces, not the Lebanese government, which on the whole is trying desperately to seperate itself from the Israel/Syria-Iran conflict. In order to remain neutral, the President must be a Maronite Catholic Christian, the Prime Minister must be a Sunni Muslim, and the Speaker of the Parliament must be a Shi'a Muslim. I think that's pretty brilliant. I see that as an honest step in the right direction.

I know what happened in 1982 with the invasion of Lebanon. Israel did withdraw it's forces from Lebanon but they're still attacked by Hezbollah (Continually attacked, I might add). If the Lebanese government wants to take a stand, then they should start by curtailing the activities of Hezbollah in their own country. They can openly state that they don't support Hezbollah, but when Hezbollah holds some amount of political say-so in the country well... That just makes the Lebanese government out to be hypocrites.

Quote:

I like the analogy used before. Imagine you're getting shot at by your neighbor, but your neighbor has no control over the weapon. It's actually being controlled from down the street. What do you do? Do you attack your neightbor? Or do you go after the guys down the street? Israel went after it's neighbor.

That's not a very good analogy in this case, because Lebanon does have ties to Hezbollah-- They hold fourteen of 128 seats in the Lebanese parliament. Is it any wonder why Israel would go after Lebanon?

If your neighbor was willingly pulling the trigger, you'd sure as hell go after him. Israel did.

Quote:

You seem to think that because Israel has been through really bad stuff, that it's somehow okay to attack innocent civilians. Well it's not. Hezbollah attacked Israel, not the Lebanese people. The Lebanese people have been victimized enough already by arab and jew alike. I'm sick of it, and I've never even been to Lebanon.

Just so repeat myself, it seems as if the Lebanese government is more concerned about taking Israel out than it is protecting their own citizens. Why would you openly accept a terrorist organization which frequently carries out attacks against Israel into your political structure if you didn't share their views? And furthermore, how much has Lebanon actually done to facilitate peace in the Middle East?

Cynthetiq · 07-15-2006, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

The way they are operating now, they maye very well have bombed the very soldiers they wante to save. They are bringing animosity upon themselves by the international community. They are killing innocent civilians. They are killing innocent civilians. They are killing innocent civilians.

but isn't that what Hezzbollah, Hamas, and the Palestinian suicide bombers have been doing, killing innocent civilians?

I have friends and family, Israeli and Lebanese... I'm quite torn about this, but I know that it's wrong to kill innocent civilians, while I can't say who started it first, I do know that Hamas and Hezzbollah continued after Israel made an attempt at peace, even at the risk of internal political fallout.

in regards to the guns in the window remote control, well if you don't clean up your own house or make sure that people don't come into your house and sully it up, it's still the homeowners responsibility and ultimately I'm for removing said house if the homeowners are negligent.

Willravel · 07-15-2006, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser

Hezbollah bombs Israel because they want them destroyed. Israel bombs Lebanon is hopes of crippling Hezbollah.

Yes, there is a HUGE difference. That's my point. State sponsored terrorism is quite a bit different than terrorism carried out by an independant organization. Hezbollah operates in Lebanon, but not on behalf of them. The citizens who died in the bombings were not singing the praises of the Hezbollah. Israel, the state, is attacking Lebanon, the state. That's war. It's disproportinate, and it's attacking the wrong people. It's like needing to amputate a toe, so the doctor cuts off your leg. Overkill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser

Hezbollah holds fourteen seats in the 128 member Lebanese parliament. If the terrorist group which almost weekly carries out some form of attack against Israelies openly holds some amount political power, it seems a good reason to go after Lebanon, does it not?

The government? Sure. Some poor guy trying to get on a plane? Nope. Israel targeted civilians in order to terrorize the Lebanese populace. It's a classic Israeli tactic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser

I know what happened in 1982 with the invasion of Lebanon. Israel did withdraw it's forces from Lebanon but they're still attacked by Hezbollah (Continually attacked, I might add). If the Lebanese government wants to take a stand, then they should start by curtailing the activities of Hezbollah in their own country. They can openly state that they don't support Hezbollah, but when Hezbollah holds some amount of political say-so in the country well... That just makes the Lebanese government out to be hypocrites.

Name one governmental body in the history of the world that isn't hypocritical. I think that Lebanon has improved by leaps and bounds from where it was even 5 years ago. Hezbollah activity is down, not up. Slowly Lebanon is weeding out radicals. The PLO is gone now. The Syrians and Iranians commanding and influencing the Hezbollah are next.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser

That's not a very good analogy in this case, because Lebanon does have ties to Hezbollah-- They hold fourteen of 128 seats in the Lebanese parliament. Is it any wonder why Israel would go after Lebanon?

Okay, I get it 14 out of 128. Do you know how many Hazbollah sympathizers and members were in the government 10 years ago? Again, we are seeing improvement. Yes, we should still do everything we can to stop Hezbaollah from carrying out attacks. That doesn't mean attacking innocent civilians and committing an act of war against a neighbor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

but isn't that what Hezzbollah, Hamas, and the Palestinian suicide bombers have been doing, killing innocent civilians?

I have friends and family, Israeli and Lebanese... I'm quite torn about this, but I know that it's wrong to kill innocent civilians, while I can't say who started it first, I do know that Hamas and Hezzbollah continued after Israel made an attempt at peace, even at the risk of internal political fallout.

Hezbollah deserves to be brought to justice for what they've done, not just now, but over the past 20 years. They are by definition a terrorist group. They are trying to declair war on Israel.

Lebanese citizens do not deserve to be bombed for things that they have not done and probably don't condone. They are by deffinition innocent. Most of them want to live in peace with Israel.

Are the Lebanese to be responsible for all the wrong doings of people residing in their country? Do they really deserve death for that?

I have to admit to being VERY surprised at the responses about these attacks. I know people like to side with Israel, but I can' see how this is excusable in any way.

07-14-2006, 12:15 PM	#41 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	I don't have time for a full reply but what Lebanon wants is not an issue. If Hezbola is attacking Israel out of Lebanon and the Lebanese government can not/does not stop them, it would be 'nice' if the Lebanese would invite help, but its by no means required. If some guy is shooting out of your neighbors window at your house and your neighbor does nothing to stop it, do you have to wait for them to invite you into their home before you do something about it? __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

07-14-2006, 12:56 PM	#43 (permalink)
raeanna74 I'm not a blonde! I'm knot! I'm knot! I'm knot! Location: Upper Michigan	This is a conflict that has been escalating and looming for almost 50 years. It will not be over until Israel has been declared victorious by all or until Israel is completely obliterated. There will be no middle ground for the arab countries. I have a friend who was shot 6 times in the back, paralyzed from the waist down because of it and he has been kept from returning to his home country (Lebanon) for 28 years because he had been targeted by the terrorist groups there. He was openly pro-Isreali then and his the terrorists thought his sentiments worth obliterating by shooting a man in the back. The mentality has not changed much. There is very little in this current conflict here that is new news. I personally believe that when the U.S. decides to turn their back on Isreal we will become non-existant in the world politics. Any respect other countries may have for us will be lost. The U.S has backed Isreal for those 50 some years. To change our mind now would signal weakness to other countries. That's just my 2-cents. __________________ "Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

07-15-2006, 10:28 AM	#59 (permalink)
Gatorade Frost Rookie	I'd be suprised if we had a war with Iran that involved ground forces. I would suspect a LOT of bombing, but to invade Iran with ground forces would be insane if you asked me. Take out the nuclear power, their army, etc. using air support... Seems like the easiest way to do this. __________________ I got in a fight one time with a really big guy, and he said, "I'm going to mop the floor with your face." I said, "You'll be sorry." He said, "Oh, yeah? Why?" I said, "Well, you won't be able to get into the corners very well." Emo Philips

07-15-2006, 04:23 PM	#61 (permalink)
dlish Currently sour but formerly Dlishs Super Moderator Location: Australia/UAE	if israel's aim is to dibilitate hezbollah, i find it quite ironic that they hit the northern city of tripoli where there hezbollah is virtually non existant and where shiites are few and far between. the christian town of Jounieh was also hit. i find no reason for any justification of these cities where hezbollah does not exist. can anyone show me the justification in bombings, if not only to terrorise an entire nation. my wife is in the northern city of Tripoli at the moment. i talk to my wife in 2-3 times a day now. contrary to what you guys might see on tv, its a vastly different picture over there. the airport is closed, all ports are closed and the borders are closed. over 50 bridges have been bombed in the last 4 days, the continued killing of innocent civilians, here we still have people who regurgitate simple-minded trash about justification for the illegal bombardment of a nation. you guys sit behind your computer screen in the comfort of your own home sipping ice tea and justifying how its ok for my wife and in laws to come under attack by israeli warplanes in a city that can in no way be a threat to israel. i was actually talking to her on the phone when the attack occured and they could see smoke billowing outside. the attack also happened lass than 500m where our house is in Tripoli where the port was attacked. israels attack has been a calculated effort from day one, i just wasnt sure what. ive mentioned this at the start of the thread in the politics threan when referring to the attack on gaza. i will try and keep you guys updated whenever i can. __________________ An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy

07-15-2006, 05:30 PM	#63 (permalink)
dlish Currently sour but formerly Dlishs Super Moderator Location: Australia/UAE	abaya thank you for your concern. ive followed the thread, so im well aware that not everyone here thinks that the bombardments are justified. i guess it's frustration stemming from the fact that im half a world away and i cant do anything about it. locked in by air sea and land by a bullying neighbour. their dream holiday turned into a nightmare. many of my family members are holidaying there at the moment (other than my in laws) i have 3 uncles and an aunt in Mina which is in Tripoli as well as my wife and inlaws. (all up i have about 17 immediate family members in tripoli, not to mention the cousins and 2nd cousins and huge extended family all lebanese families have) so its quite daunting everytime i hear an update on the situation. ive also got distant relatives that live in the south, but i dont know much about their situation. last night it took me an hour and a half of constant dialling-redialling before i got through, so the phone lines are congested or down. the next worst thing the israelis could do is knock out the communication towers..then we'd really be fucked. my thoughts are with Ktspktsp and his family. you really do know who your friends are when they call you to make sure everything is ok. even if its a quick phone call. __________________ An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy

07-14-2006, 04:09 PM	#50 (permalink)
Xazy People in masks cannot be trusted Location: NYC	Hezbalah, is a part of the Lebanon government. They even have 2 cabinet members who are a part of that terrorist group. If an organization that is a part of the government attacks the neighboring country, capturing soldiers of the neighboring country, that is an act of war. Israel took out the airport, the road, and boat, to stop the transportation of the kidnapped soldiers. There should be no negotiating with terrorists. They have asked for thousands of prisoners back in return for a handful, of people that they have siezed in an act of war. I feel bad for the reguler citizens there, but it is their governments fault for not complying and disarming the terrorist group Hezballah, and allowing them to be such a powerful force in their country.

07-15-2006, 05:37 PM	#64 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	My thoughts are with all victims and possible victims, and my malice and contempt are towards those who refuse to act like adults. How easily they sentence innocent people to death for petty political aims. It disgusts me.

07-15-2006, 06:52 PM	#65 (permalink)
Nirvana Crazy	hey guys. Here are my views on this whole matter. I feel bad for the innocent lebanese people and israelis who have to deal with these attacks. I just want to say that before i go on. Now, i want to say that the other arab countries don't care about the palestinians. they just flat out don't. the only people who care about the palestinians are palestinians. countries like syria and iran just flat out want israel gone. while in small numbers , jews were tolerated in the middle east. when numbers began to grow, they were despised. look up "the vanshing jews of the arab world" and learn about how jews were exiled from arab lands where their homes were and how they lived in israeli refugee camps until israel was able to take them in. look up things lirke the "farhud" and look up how the mufti of jerusalem worked with hitler in organizing an arab SS. also look at this article written by lebanese-american Joseph Farah. http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=24170 i think that if the israelis and palestinians can just discuss all of this without other arab countries or even muslim countries (pakistan meddles as much as the US does) somehting might develop. Now i definetely think israel is going too far with these attacks. i understand their frustration with the fact that these militants are attacking their borders and that the lebanese government is not acting in any way to destroy them, but i feel that innocent lives are more important. i understand their strategy, but i just don't think its an effective one. and i really doubt that the israeli government or even people want to hurt lebanon deliberately becuase unlike popular beleif, israel is not tryint to expand and take over the arab world. i also agree that israel is wrong when bulldozing homes and many of my jewish and arab (also arabs and jews CAN be friends, i just think it needs to be out of the whole middle eastern context) friends agree with that fact. but before real peace talks happen, there needs to be a stop of the violence. you can't discuss peace while there are people being killed. that goes towards both sides. every time there seems to be some sort of peace deal, there is always a setback. I just don't beleive this will ever happen. everyone needs to take actions into their own hands. and that's somehting i dont see happening soon.

07-15-2006, 06:52 PM	#66 (permalink)
ktspktsp Addict Location: Reykjavik, Iceland	dlishsguy, I hope your wife is able to return soon, and that your relatives stay safe. And willravel (and a few others in this thread), thank you for caring thoughts. My parents and sister are safe for now, but when the bombing is 2 miles away, what is "safe"? This isn't really about two kidnapped soldiers. It's more about destroying a country's spirit, infrastructure, economy and potential. And causing the death of 100+ civilians so far (some of them Israelis too). It's like being beaten up by a bully and just waiting for him to be done, since no one will help you (well, the UN could pass a resolution to enforce a cease-fire, but Bush "doesn't want to make military decisions for Israel", or something like that, so any resolution would be vetoed). To echo another point by dlishsguy, the one good this I saw come out of this is how many friends I have that care about me and my family. It is a blessing (and this is coming from an atheist ). Alright, armchair generals, you can go back to your recipes of domination and destruction now. (why yes, I am a bit bitter)

07-15-2006, 07:21 PM	#69 (permalink)
Nirvana Crazy	ktspktsp. i hope your family get out of this ok and unharmed. while i don't agree with your opinions about israel, i do hope they are ok. we moved on from the style forum into the political arena, willravel. I do agree that this is an overreaction as well. while i say that, i do understand what they are trying to do and as i said before,, i just dont think this is an effective strategy. oh when i said no one cares about the palestinians, i meant the arab governments in the middle east who claim to be fighting for the rights of the palestinians. i myself hope they can live in peace one day. israel has always been a country whpo has beenm on the defensive. it has to fight enemies on all borders. when you are constantly being attacked, u react and you react hard. the same thing can and should be said about the palestinians, but two wrongs dont make a right. it is a vicious cycle. also i hear this idea that israel is taking advantage of their military might to crush the palestinians. its israel against the entire middle east plus the hypocritical EU. there are stuck and they dont know how to get out. they cant fight every single country out there thats sending terroists to attack in the "name of the palestinian cause".

07-15-2006, 07:29 PM	#71 (permalink)
Nirvana Crazy	alos the reason why israel is so mad about having their people being killed by these militants because it happens weekly. and the countries where these terrorists take refuge denounce their actions but secretly support them. while it is hypocritical, what are they to do. i mena right after the israelis gave land last year, what did the palestinians do. they destroyed the buildings that they could have live din. they burned down farms that they could have used to support themselves. they destroyed every single synogogue, which is not surprising, but the motivivation behind it is disgusting. and yet there are still attacks. even what israel does do somehting that many of the people who denounce israel consider right, they dont get any slack from their critics or the militants still commiting attacks to this day. i agree infinite loser, what else are they to do. siplomacy will not work. every action israel takes, they get criticised for. i can guarantee that there are large factions out there that will not rest until israel and every jew is gone out of the middle east. this is not about the disputed lands. this is about israel as a whole. Last edited by Nirvana; 07-15-2006 at 07:33 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

07-15-2006, 08:13 PM	#73 (permalink)
Nirvana Crazy	while i agree they are wrong with their tactic in this "situation" and i have stated that before, i think the person before me is speaker on a broader scale, not just this one situation. one has to think however, this is the exact thing that hezbollah wanted. this is the exact thing that they were trying to spark. israel unfortunately played right into their hand. if you read the statements that the leader of hesbollah made, you cna clearly see this was a highly calculated plan. Last edited by Nirvana; 07-15-2006 at 08:18 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

07-15-2006, 08:33 PM	#75 (permalink)
Nirvana Crazy	actually i don't really want to be a prt of this discussion anymore. i will just leave it with hope that the people of israel and lebnon can get through this unfortunate series of events.

07-15-2006, 08:51 PM	#76 (permalink)
percy Addict	Since the US has decided to stay out of this conflict, I wonder if they will get involved if the tables turn and Israel starts getting pounded. Guess it depends on the price of a barrel of oil and how much Israel can keep the upperhand while oil profits go through the roof.