Israel invades Lebanon, Hezbollah attacks N. Israel - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Painted · 07-14-2006, 01:38 AM

Israel is invading Lebanon to attack Hezbollah targets in the country after Hezbollah kidnapped two Israeli soldiers. In addition, Israel is looking towards Syria for more retaliation against Hezbollah, and the H. has attacked northern Israel (including Haifa, the third largest city in Israel) with rockets. That roughly sums it up at this point.

Link:http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/...ast/index.html

Quote:

Israeli bombs Beirut airport again
Lebanese prime minister appeals for help

BEIRUT, Lebanon (CNN) -- Israeli aircraft Friday struck a runway at Beirut's international airport, shortly after it was repaired and reopened following airstrikes Thursday, the Lebanese and Israeli armies said.

Escalating violence between Hezbollah militants and Israeli troops moved Lebanon's prime minister to call for a comprehensive cease-fire Friday and request help from the U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, a spokesman for the prime minister said.

Rice promised Prime Minister Fouad Siniora to exercise the utmost pressure to help achieve a cease-fire, according to the spokesman.

Siniora is planning to meet with the five permanent members of the U.N. Security Council -- China, France, Britain, Russia and the United States -- on Friday, the spokesman said.

Violence continued for a third day when Hezbollah militants in southern Lebanon fired 10 Katyusha rockets into northern Israel early Friday, damaging property as tit-for-tat bombings between the Islamic group and Israel continued, according to the Israel Defense Forces.

Overnight, IDF warplanes attacked 18 targets in Lebanon, including the headquarters for the Syrian-backed Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine in east Lebanon.

Hezbollah headquarters in southern Beirut was also the target of Israeli airstrikes overnight, according to IDF. Bridges and roads leading to the offices were destroyed in the operation.

Along the Israel-Lebanon border, IDF attacked two Hezbollah outposts, a weapons storage facility used by militants and three fuel stations south of Sidon.

Israeli attacks on Hezbollah positions in southern Lebanon have killed at least 55 Lebanese, including two soldiers, and wounded 160 others, Lebanon's internal security forces told CNN on Friday.

Israel launched the military operation against Hezbollah after its militants kidnapped two Israeli soldiers from northern Israel Wednesday morning.

Since that cross-border raid, five more Israeli soldiers have been killed, as well as two Israeli civilians, two Lebanese soldiers and 55 Lebanese civilians, according to Israeli and Lebanese sources.

Hezbollah guerillas on Thursday lobbed dozens rockets into northern Israel. Rockets also landed in the northern port city of Haifa, which would mark the deepest point into Israel that Hezbollah rockets have ever reached. But Hezbollah denied that they fired the rockets.

Daniel Ayalon, Israel's ambassador to the United States, called the rocket attacks "a major escalation" in the violence.

Israeli airstrikes and artillery hammered hundreds of targets in Lebanon, including two previous strikes on the Beirut airport. (Beirut airport map)

The United States and Israel have accused Iran and Syria of fueling the three-day-old crisis in Lebanon.

Israel: Lebanon held responsible
Despite the fact that several countries -- including the Unites States and Lebanon -- have said that the Lebanese government doesn't have the capacity to extend its authority into Hezbollah-held territory, Israel has blamed the Lebanese government for the violence and charged it with the safe release of the soldiers.

Hezbollah, which enjoys substantial backing from Syria and Iran, is considered a terrorist organization by the United States and Israel. The group holds 23 of the 128 seats in Lebanon's parliament.

"There are a number of different strategic targets that we're hitting -- obviously the Hezbollah posts, their command centers and also where they store their weapons," said Capt. Erik Snider, spokesman for the Israel Defense Forces.

"We're also trying to hit other strategic targets where we know that we can prevent the re-arming of Hezbollah," Snider told CNN.

Ayalon told CNN Thursday night that Israel's attacks are intended to "de-fang the Hezbollah."

He added, "Hopefully this will strengthen the Lebanese government so that they will exercise their sovereignty" in the south of the country, where Hezbollah is virtually autonomous.

Israeli warships set up a blockade, preventing cruise ships from docking in Beirut and cutting off the delivery of fuel used to operate Lebanese power plants.

Israeli Defense Minister Amir Peretz has said Israel won't let Hezbollah, a Shiite Muslim militia, return to the border -- raising the prospect that Israel may again occupy southern Lebanon, as it did from 1978 to 2000.

Under the treaty that ended Lebanon's 15-year civil war in 1990, Hezbollah was allowed to retain its weaponry to fight Israeli troops in southern Lebanon. It says it won't disarm until Israeli troops leave the disputed Shebaa Farms region near the Syria border, which the United Nations recognizes as Syrian territory.

Israeli troops pull out of central Gaza
Israel Defense Forces withdrew troops from central Gaza Friday after "completing their activities in the area," but Israeli troops remained in southern Gaza, the IDF said.

The army had been active in central Gaza in efforts to locate an Israeli soldier kidnapped June 25 and quell rocket attacks against Israeli citizens.

The violence continued, however, and on Friday morning four Israelis were treated for shock after Qassam rockets launched by Palestinian militants hit the border town of Sderot, the IDF said.

The Israeli army said it "hit" more than 30 armed militants overnight in land and sea attacks targeting seven rogue groups who, they asserted, were plotting against Israeli troops. The fate of the militants was not immediately known.

CNN's Barbara Starr and John Vause and journalist Anthony Mills in Beirut contributed to this report

I pray that this will not escalate into a very large war between the Islamic world and Israel, for the souls of the innocent who will die and have already died. However, this seems expected from the Israelis after what Hezbollah has done to Israel in the past few days. We will see how this is played out by the UN and Israel, and again, I hope that there are no more killings.

Brewmaniac · 07-14-2006, 02:05 AM

Quote:

I pray that this will not escalate into a very large war between the Islamic world and Israel, for the souls of the innocent who will die and have already died. However, this seems expected from the Israelis after what Hezbollah has done to Israel in the past few days. We will see how this is played out by the UN and Israel, and again, I hope that there are no more killings.

I'll second that!
I to hope this doesn't escalate into an all out mid east war.

maleficent · 07-14-2006, 03:00 AM

while you're praying, an additional one for our very own KTSPKTSP's family that is living in Lebanon, stay safe...

Hezbollah should be gotten rid of, but there's gotta be a better way to doing it than bombing the crap out of people who don't deserve it...

abaya · 07-14-2006, 04:05 AM

By the way, there's an active thread discussing this same topic in Tilted Politics... but this one is more direct. I hope it picks up speed.

I want to ask TFP'ers in other countries: how does your media portray this conflict? Is there disproportionate weight given to Israeli interests, as with every news source in America, or do you have more balanced reporting?

I can only imagine how Americans' reactions might be different if we were fed something other than Israel = America's fortunate son. Maybe we would actually care about Lebanon being stuck in the middle. Then again, we seemed to care a hell of a lot about them last year when their Prime Minister was assassinated and "democracy" was the buzzword... but now that our "friend" is being destroyed (again) by momma's boy (with completely disproportionate use of force) we look the other way and even applaud the action.

There's not much I can say. Clusterfuck. One big clusterfuck. There is no one party to blame... and yet, I cannot help but be very frustrated with the apathy of so many Americans. How can we be so blind?

stevo · 07-14-2006, 04:37 AM

Lebanon is indeed stuck in the middle. I knew a lebanese young man in the summer of 2001, this was before 9/11. We would talk about middle east politics and world politics and he would swear up and down that the Lebanese were not terrorists, but the terrorists were from outside and had taken over the country and there was no way the citizens could truely get rid of them.

But what is Israel to do? We have forced israel to go on with the "road map to peace" the 2 state solution. You can't have a roadmap to peace or a 2 state solution with an enemy who won't acknowledge your right to exist. How do you retaliate when groups attack you, fire rockets into your country, kidnap and kill your soldiers and citizens? Israel has played it restrained for most of this decade. How much longer must she fight with one hand tied behind he back? We weren't preaching restraint when we fought the japanese in WW2, we let them know it was either unconditional surrender or total anialation. Eventually we got the surrender with the total destruction of 2 cities and not a whole country. I'm not in any way advocating that israel should use nuclear weapons, only that they need not show restraint. They need to dominate the enemy in order to end the violence.

Ustwo · 07-14-2006, 06:10 AM

Go Israel!

I do hope those who do not support the terrorists but live under their control do not suffer in this conflict, but there is little that can be done to protect them besides removing said terrorists.

I don't know why the left had decided they are on the side of mysogynistic, anti-democracy, anti-personal freedom side of the terrorists and they have given the Palestinians the most one sided biased press coverage that I can think of outside of a WWII propaganda film. But they did and Israel has taken it up the ass for a long time trying to keep the international community 'happy'. I'm glad to see they are doing what they should have done almost 10 years ago.

This isn't about negotiations right now, or for the last 50 years. Israel is fighting enemies which want them destroyed, they speak of prophecies of the Jews all being killed, they think they are doing gods will, yet we are suppose to think its just the fault of the Israelis.

Perhaps if the European press wasn't so blatantly anti-Israeli (as well as much of the US press, but to a lessor degree) some pressure could have been put on the Palestinians a long time ago to really compromise instead of just biding their time, but they didn't, its too late.

These are the people who danced in the streets when 9/11 happened, these are the people who voted in a terrorist government in their last election, these are the people who glorify children blowing themselves up in public places, and they now reap what they sew.

Go Israel!

TexanAvenger · 07-14-2006, 06:24 AM

Aw, come on. The world was just getting to the good part where people were just barely beginning to realize we fucked up and need to fix everything... Now this is like the beginning of World War III, we're caught offguard, and expected to clap for Israel just because it's Israel.

Place high in the Andes mountains sounds good about now, doesn't it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Perhaps if the European press wasn't so blatantly anti-Israeli (as well as much of the US press, but to a lessor degree)

I can't speak for European press, but I never hear of anything but praise for Israel when it comes to news and policy in the US.

Gatorade Frost · 07-14-2006, 06:31 AM

Haven't we been expecting WWIII to come out of every Israeli/Middle Eastern war thta's occurred over the last century?

Except now the rest of the ME doesn't have the USSR backing it.

I think this is just another one of those minor skirmishes that happens all too often.

Ustwo · 07-14-2006, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gatorade Frost

I think this is just another one of those minor skirmishes that happens all too often.

I fear its one of those minor skirmishes, and we can then get back to the regular schedule of suicide bombings. I want it to escalate and get this over with. This is a problem that putting it off will only get more people killed in the long run.

stevo · 07-14-2006, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gatorade Frost

Haven't we been expecting WWIII to come out of every Israeli/Middle Eastern war thta's occurred over the last century?

Except now the rest of the ME doesn't have the USSR backing it.

I think this is just another one of those minor skirmishes that happens all too often.

I think its more than a minor skirmish

Quote:

Israeli officials said the campaign by the air force was the biggest since the Israeli invasion in 1982. The only comparable military action since then was the "Grapes of Wrath" offensive in 1996, also sparked by Hezbollah attacks.

But the casualties were mounting faster than in 1996, when at least 165 people were killed in 17 days of fighting, including more than 100 civilians who died in Israeli shelling of a U.N. base.

If the attacks on lebanon don't result in a pull back of hezbollah and the return of the 2 IDF soldiers there is a good possibility Israel goes into syria, which would draw in Iran....dun dun dun.

Gatorade Frost · 07-14-2006, 06:44 AM

Well, I guess we'll see.

highthief · 07-14-2006, 06:44 AM

I'm begining to hope both sides annihilate each other and we can go back to peace and quiet and cheap oil.

ASU2003 · 07-14-2006, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gatorade Frost

Except now the rest of the ME doesn't have the USSR backing it.

What happens if China wants to become buddies with the oil countries in the ME?

If it does escalate to all out war between 8 or 9 Islamic countries and Israel, I'm not sure if they could hold them back. And I defiantly don't want the US getting involved in that.

Gatorade Frost · 07-14-2006, 06:49 AM

Yeah, I don't want the US to get involved with it either. Same with China. We're all too closely connected via the economy to want to get into a war between Israel and the rest of the ME.

TexanAvenger · 07-14-2006, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highthief

I'm begining to hope both sides annihilate each other and we can go back to peace and quiet and cheap oil.

First of all, I find this a horrible sentiment. Do you realize that we too are in a war with a country in the ME? I'd bet a lot more of the world would rather we get the hell out of there and shut up.

And cheap oil neither exists anymore nor will come of this.

Ustwo · 07-14-2006, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASU2003

What happens if China wants to become buddies with the oil countries in the ME?

If it does escalate to all out war between 8 or 9 Islamic countries and Israel, I'm not sure if they could hold them back. And I defiantly don't want the US getting involved in that.

Now is in fact the BEST time for a real war there. The USSR is dead, and China hasn't started to reach out as of yet. Do you think China would want to get involved in a fight with the US right now? In 20 years sure, but they are not ready now. We on the other hand have a sizeable force already in Iraq.

Its time for this conflict, its time to get it over with, or when it does happen (which it will sooner or later) it could go nuclear (something which is unlikely right now).

roachboy · 07-14-2006, 06:54 AM

nice to see the context-free endorsements of israeli actions in gaza and lebanon above--the total lack of specific information concerning the actual actions that are unfolding in real time seems of a piece with the cheerleading israeli actions.

it is also quaint to see (again) the same tired line that processing actual information about what israel is actually doing on the ground in real time constitutes an "anti-israel" position.

seems to me like the support for israeli actions and anything like actual information about what is happening are, in fact, mutually exclusive.

so let's get a snapshot of what is happening in gaza.
remember gaza?
the israelis have cut off power, water, almost all food deliveries.
conditions there are becoming really very bad.
this of course affects the entire population--but hey, who cares about crimes like collective punishment?

Quote:

The crisis in the north has completely overshadowed the situation in Gaza, where Israeli corporal Gilad Shalit remains a captive of Hamas and the already desperate living conditions of Gazans continue to deteriorate.

Piles of rubbish are mounting in the streets as there is no fuel for garbage trucks. The shortage of electricity, caused by airstrikes on a power station, means there is not enough power to pump sewage or water. Untreated sewage is running directly into the sea and crowds gather round water tanks to fill jerry cans and plastic bottles.

Virtually no wages have been paid to employees of the Palestinian Authority and the rest of the economy is at a standstill. Israel allows enough fuel and food to enter but Gazans cannot leave or enter the strip. Thousands have been stuck on the Egyptian border waiting to return home. The Red Cross reported that four people had died because of the lack of shelter and services.

Israel pulled its forces out of central Gaza overnight, although they remain in the south near Rafah. The air force continued to bomb parts of Gaza, hitting buildings, roads and bridges, and the army shelled northern Gaza, where a man was killed when a tank fired at his car.

Since the offensive began, Israeli forces have killed 86 Palestinians and one Israeli soldier in a friendly fire incident. Many of the dead were gunmen, but about a fifth were civilians.The latest victim was a 10-year-old boy who died in a hospital on Friday, four days after being wounded in Beit Lahiya in the north

source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Sto...820615,00.html

yesterday the americans vetoed a motion in the un security council condemning israel's actions in gaza and the humanitarian crisis they have engendered.

the context for understanding this is not the vague, distorted cliffnotes outlined by ustwo above--the context is the reality of the day-to-day conflict between israel--a regional military superpower--and the palestinians, not just the armed groups, but the population as a whole. folk who support the israeli actions relative to the palestinian population can only do so because they do not look at the reality they are supporting. the air is cleaner across Vague Terrain. what unfolds on the ground is ugly and complicated and so--apparently--should be avoided.

what is worse is that
obviously the bush administration is in no position to lecture anybody about how wrong it is to launch full-scale military actions on flimsy and/or incoherent grounds, and so finds itself vaguely waving on the invasion of lebanon. go ahead fellows, and dont worry about niceties of international law or actual arguments in support of your actions--just try to be a bit restrained, ok?

good christ.
finding myself getting a bit wound about this, so i'll cut off here.

stevo · 07-14-2006, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

]

yesterday the americans vetoed a motion in the un security council condemning israel's actions in gaza and the humanitarian crisis they have engendered.

I'd just like to point out that the US was the only veto on a motion to condemn Israel that was brought forth by the anti-israeli UN. Thats what they are, anti-israeli. the UN has had far more motions and resolutions brough forth against israel than any other country. The arab countries use the UN as a way to fight israel. The same israel they deny has the right to exist.

-----

I doubt china would ally with anyone in an upcoming war. They would sit by until the US was too preoccupied and make an uncontested move on Taiwan. The wild card is north korea, who would either attack the south or, more realistically pass a briefcase of uranium to iran.

Ample · 07-14-2006, 07:13 AM

I would like to ask everyone to think of this senerio.

We have radical groups here, say that they went to a country that we don’t real like but not at war with, such as Cuba or Venezuela. Kidnapped and killed some of their solders. Cuba/Venezuela wants something done about it. We do little or nothing. So Cuba/Venezuela takes matters into their own hands and starts shooting rockets in the suburbs of Houston. Then Cuba/Venezuela says you know there is a branch of this radical group outside of Toronto, and thinking about going after that once they are done in Houston.

Seems a lot of people want to give Isreal a little sympathy, cause they are Isreal. If someone did something like that to us, everyone would see it different.

Just something to think about.

Redlemon · 07-14-2006, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TexanAvenger

I can't speak for European press, but I never hear of anything but praise for Israel when it comes to news and policy in the US.

Interesting. One of my Jewish friends stopped sending donations to her PBS station, because she thought there was an anti-Israeli bias in NPR's reporting of these conflicts.

Willravel · 07-14-2006, 07:51 AM

I'm sorry about what happened in WWII, but I was born in 1983, so I don't feel guilt for it. Israel is out of line attacking civilian targets. They have been out of line every time they have attacked civilian targets. Palestinian militants have been wrong every time they have attacked civilian targets. Hezbollah, an independant radical group, are wrong for attacking anything.

Lebanon didn't attack Israel. Israel attacked Lebanon. Unless I see prooof that the Hezbollah actions were connected to those people in the airport who died, Israel will remain on my shit list.

powerclown · 07-14-2006, 07:56 AM

The bottom line - and why I support Israel in this - is that the Palestinians, Syrians, Iranians don't want to negotiate with Israel, they want it destroyed. Syria employs Hamas to do its dirty work and Iran employs Hezbollah for same. Lebanon is to blame for allowing Hezbollah to operate in its country, implicitly lending it support. Israel left Gaza months ago, and they left Lebanon 6 years ago, and they continue to be attacked from both locations.

So now it looks like Israel is seriously going after Hezbollah, instead of the usual pinpricks. They are apparently pressuring Lebanon to stop providing Hezbollah with a base of attack on Israel. Civilians are suffering and being killed on both sides. Israel is being hit with hundreds of rockets, many made by Iran. The arab countries are taking casualties and damage as a direct result of their irresponsible leadership, continued shelling of Israel, and their collective decision not to negotiate with Israel.

This latest round of violence was deliberately started by Iran and Syria. Iran planned the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers to distract from it's nuclear situation, which is shortly going up for review in the UN Security Council. Israel has the right to defend themselves from aggressors bent on their destruction. America is right to support their only democratic ally in the region.

Sticky · 07-14-2006, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ample

I would like to ask everyone to think of this senerio.

We have radical groups here, say that they went to a country that we don’t real like but not at war with, such as Cuba or Venezuela. Kidnapped and killed some of their solders. Cuba/Venezuela wants something done about it. We do little or nothing. So Cuba/Venezuela takes matters into their own hands and starts shooting rockets in the suburbs of Houston. Then Cuba/Venezuela says you know there is a branch of this radical group outside of Toronto, and thinking about going after that once they are done in Houston.

Seems a lot of people want to give Isreal a little sympathy, cause they are Isreal. If someone did something like that to us, everyone would see it different.

Just something to think about.

Let's make the scenario a little more close to home.

Let's say that Mexico had a bad past with the US that there is no love betwen the US and Mexico.
Imagine that A South American country had for years controlled the Mexican government and would often involve themselves in skirmishes with the bordering US areas.
Assume also that years ago the US entered and occupied Nother Mexico for many years.
Now Imagine that the US, from much criticism from its own population (and the rest of the world) about occupying part of another country and about loosing American soldiers due to the fighting in that area, withdraws from Northern Mexico.
Imagine that A couple of years later with a strong push the Mexican people with the world behind them are able to push out the South American country that was controlling them Politicaly. While Mexico is able to free themselves politicaly the militant organization, that was politicaly controlling the country, sponsored by the South American country, and other US enemies, remains in Mexico.

Now about a year later, imagine that this militant force crosses over the border, goes into San Antonio, and kidnaps a couple of US Soldiers. They bring the soldiers back over the border. They then state that the US can have the soldeirs back if they release members of their organizations that are in US prisons and were captured during the previous years of fighting.

There is a strong possiblity that the militant organization is going to smuggle the two soldiers out of Mexico and to the South America country.

What should the US do?

highthief · 07-14-2006, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TexanAvenger

First of all, I find this a horrible sentiment. Do you realize that we too are in a war with a country in the ME? I'd bet a lot more of the world would rather we get the hell out of there and shut up.

And cheap oil neither exists anymore nor will come of this.

Who is "we"? My country isn't anywhere near Iraq.

stevo · 07-14-2006, 08:19 AM

Whats with all the scenerios? How about looking at what is really going on and not some hypothetical?

Powerclown is dead-on.

The IDF is not indiscriminately bombing civillian targets, they are doing what it takes to cripple Hamas' and Hezbollah's ability to wage war. You do that by knocking out infrastructure, electricity, transportation routes, etc. Should Israel attack syria, which will happen eventually before there is an actual end to this situation, Iran is sure to involve itself, thus the US and Britain will be there.

Get prepared boys. Its almost time.

highthief · 07-14-2006, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo

Get prepared boys. Its almost time.

And then all the Bible-thumpers will be happy, for it will be the end of days, Armegeddon, return of the Messiah, etc.

Ustwo · 07-14-2006, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highthief

Who is "we"? My country isn't anywhere near Iraq.

And they would have to take our transports if they wanted to get there

Canada doesn't really play into any of these discussions except as a future source of oil.

stevo · 07-14-2006, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highthief

And then all the Bible-thumpers will be happy, for it will be the end of days, Armegeddon, return of the Messiah, etc.

I wouldn't go that far. Not looking for armegeddon here, i just think this is going to get much much bigger before it gets any smaller. I don't fear the world is facing destruction.

highthief · 07-14-2006, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

And they would have to take our transports if they wanted to get there

Do Americans carry passports? I thought you were all busy marrying your cousins and losing toes to farm equipment down there.

Y'all?

Ustwo · 07-14-2006, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highthief

Do Americans carry passports? I thought you were all busy marrying your cousins and losing toes to farm equipment down there.

Y'all?

Careful I just left Kenora Canada, its much like Deliverance there only with pine trees and more indians.

roachboy · 07-14-2006, 09:12 AM

no-one seems to want to address the real-time contexts for this--narratives abour wanting to destroy israel are in the main outmoded--they function to justify irrational responses, like the invasion of lebanon--but they are being abandoned bit by bit. hamas has de facto abandoned this element of its platform.

that hasnt stopped israel from pulverizing the gaza strip.
that action is not about shalit--it is about destroying the palestinian government because they do not like hamas--that action continues, is a humanitarian crisis of significant proportions--and as usual the united states does fuck all to stop it, to influence it.

the follow-up claim is that there can be no negociations because there is no-one to negociate with. (well not directly at least--at an arm's distance, negociations happen.)
meanwhile, 1.5 million people in gaza experience the grinding reality caused by the israeli blockade.
just as they have experienced years and years of brutality at the hands of a regional military superpower, which the palestinians fight using tactics that i deplore, but which i can at least understand.

clearly it is the palestinian groups which are the "terrorists" here. routinised brutality carried out by a state military cannot be "terrorism" right?

you'd have to be an idiot not to connect hezbollah's actions as being linked to what israel is doing in gaza. for the sequence of actual events, look at the graphic i posted earlier--hezbollah launched a rocket attack and took 2 israeli hostages--which is not a good move and i do not condone it--THEN israel invaded southern lebanon--THEN more rocket attacks.

to invade southern lebanon over this seems to me absurd.
completely, wholly absurd.
to cut lebanon off from the world, to destroy the airport, impose a naval blockade, and to bomb suburbs killing 50 in the first day--this seems to me a totally disproportionate response to any sane assessment of the situation.

the americans can say nothing of any substance because their actions in iraq prevent them form saying anything. on what possible basis could this administration make a criticism of israel's invasion of lebanon? so all i see here is the bush administration framing itself out of having any meanignful role in this, except for its usual unqualified support for israeli military actions.

ASU2003 · 07-14-2006, 09:26 AM

What is with the media? One Israeli woman and child are injured and they are victims. How many Lebanese people have been injured or killed by the actions Israel has taken?

It's bias in the news like this that makes me have to filter it out so much.

I could care less about who wins. If Israel (and the religious anti-muslim) people of the world take over about ~12 countries in that region, yea for them. If the 12 Islamic states go to war and reclaim Israel, it will be a little more peaceful until the sunnis and shittes start at it again.

It must be convenient to have 1/10th of the US military setup all over two of the Islamic countries...

stevo · 07-14-2006, 10:01 AM

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...275674,00.html

Quote:

Olmert: Operation will stop when Hizbullah disarms

Prime minister tells UN's Annan IDF offensive will stop when Hizbullah disarms
Associated Press

Israel will not halt its offensive in Lebanon until Hizbullah is disarmed, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said Friday.

Olmert made the comments during a telephone call with U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan, Israeli government officials said Friday. Olmert agreed to allow a U.N. team come to the area to try to mediate a cease-fire, an official close to Olmert said.

The official spoke on condition of anonymity because he is not authorized to speak to the media.

Israel launched a major offensive in southern Lebanon Wednesday after Hizbullah killed eight Israeli soldiers and captured two more.

Since then, at least 61 Lebanese have been killed in Israel's retaliatory offensive, and Hizbullah terrorists have rained scores of rockets on northern Israel, killing two civilians.

Olmert said he would only cooperate with the U.N. team if its mandate would be to free the captured Israeli soldiers and force Lebanon to comply with a U.N. resolution that calls on it to deploy its forces along its border with Israel, moving Hizbullah guerrillas out of the area, the official said.

And if Hezbollah does not disarm and lebanon decides not to fight hezbollah what is Israel to do? make concessions? No, pound hezbollah until there is nothing left of it.

Ustwo · 07-14-2006, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASU2003

What is with the media? One Israeli woman and child are injured and they are victims. How many Lebanese people have been injured or killed by the actions Israel has taken?

It's bias in the news like this that makes me have to filter it out so much.

First story I looked at...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13853565/
Israel seeks to disarm Hezbollah
The death toll in three days of fighting rose to 73 killed in Lebanon — almost all civilians, including five who died in strikes in south Beirut and the south Friday — and 12 in Israel, including four civilians killed by Hezbollah rockets.

Which media do you speak of that is pro-Israeli in any way shape or form? The European press has been caught staging faked incidents of Iraeli violence and you see media bias in FAVOR of Israel?

http://www.nysun.com/article/5385

abaya · 07-14-2006, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

These are the people who danced in the streets when 9/11 happened, these are the people who voted in a terrorist government in their last election, these are the people who glorify children blowing themselves up in public places, and they now reap what they sew.

Ustwo, are you seriously saying that you think all Lebanese people danced in the streets when 9/11 happened? And what is this about Lebanese voting in a terrorist government? Hezbollah has a couple of seats in the Lebanese parliament, but the Lebanese by no means voted in a "terrorist government." In fact, due to their grass-roots movement last spring, they were able to GET RID of a terrorist governmen's presence (Syria) with public demonstrations. Additionally, VERY FEW Lebanese glorify blowing up children, and VERY FEW Lebanese become suicide bombers.

Please explain to me what the Lebanese people have "sown" to reap this kind of "reward." Your facts are completely off; you are confusing Palestinians with Lebanese, and you are confusing Hezbollah with the Lebanese. Not all Lebanese support Hezbollah. And yes, it's nice to imagine that Lebanon has the ability to get rid of Hezbollah, but that's about as good as saying the US could just "kick out" its illegal immigrants. Hezbollah draws its strength from the third or so of the Lebanese population that are Shia; can you imagine kicking out a presence that has 30% support of your population? That would actually result in a civil war... something that Lebanon is, quite understandably, not interested in starting up again.

Ustwo · 07-14-2006, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaya

Ustwo, are you seriously saying that you think all Lebanese people danced in the streets when 9/11 happened? And what is this about Lebanese voting in a terrorist government? Hezbollah has a couple of seats in the Lebanese parliament, but the Lebanese by no means voted in a "terrorist government." In fact, due to their grass-roots movement last spring, they were able to GET RID of a terrorist governmen's presence (Syria) with public demonstrations. Additionally, VERY FEW Lebanese glorify blowing up children, and VERY FEW Lebanese become suicide bombers.

Please explain to me what the Lebanese people have "sown" to reap this kind of "reward." Your facts are completely off; you are confusing Palestinians with Lebanese, and you are confusing Hezbollah with the Lebanese. Not all Lebanese support Hezbollah. And yes, it's nice to imagine that Lebanon has the ability to get rid of Hezbollah, but that's about as good as saying the US could just "kick out" its illegal immigrants. Hezbollah draws its strength from the third or so of the Lebanese population that are Shia; can you imagine kicking out a presence that has 30% support of your population? That would actually result in a civil war... something that Lebanon is, quite understandably, not interested in starting up again.

The Lebanese are not in control of southern Lebanon, Hezbollah is, even if its not marked on the map. Those who do not support Hezbollah are unfortunately caught in the cross fire and may be used as human shields by Hezbollah so people can post about Israeli attrocities as if they are targeting civilians (which is so ironic since thats exactly what Hezbollah and Hamas do). They need to be removed by war, and war is upon them. To say they shouldn't is like saying the US/UK/Canada couldn't invade France (and cause lots of civilian deaths I might add) to get rid of the Nazi's. The Lebanese can't do it themselves, so it must be done by Isreal.

Gatorade Frost · 07-14-2006, 11:44 AM

Nevermind.

abaya · 07-14-2006, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

The Lebanese are not in control of southern Lebanon, Hezbollah is, even if its not marked on the map.

Agreed. And yet much of the abuse is raining down on the infrastructure of Beirut... which is *not*, by any stretch of the map, in southern Lebanon. Your comments don't make sense in light of that fact.

You also have not answered my other comments on your post. Why are you conflating the majority of the Lebanese (non-Hezbollah supporters) with the Palestinians?

EDIT: I see you added more to the last post since I read it. Let me think on it and I will respond again.

Ustwo · 07-14-2006, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaya

EDIT: I see you added more to the last post since I read it. Let me think on it and I will respond again.

That was an error on my part, a prematurereplyation.

As for attacking things like the airport, the problem is the 'offical' Lebanese government has little power to do anything. Isreal does not want any of these guys to escape and I dont' blame them.

abaya · 07-14-2006, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Those who do not support Hezbollah are unfortunately caught in the cross fire and may be used as human shields by Hezbollah so people can post about Israeli attrocities as if they are targeting civilians

Hezbollah is not "hiding out" at the international airport, or under the bridges that the Israelis have bombed. Of course I am not a perfect source of information here, but it is my understanding that Hezbollah is not using human shields in order to draw Israeli fire. Israel is simply choosing to target places with civilians, period, whether or not Hezbollah is related to that target.

Believe me, I think it was wrong for Hezbollah to kidnap those soldiers, okay? However, I also find this to be a disproportionate use of force to rectify the situation. BOTH sides are wrong, and the whole thing is a mess.

Quote:

The Lebanese can't do it themselves, so it must be done by Isreal.

Oh? And when did the Lebanese ask Israel to become an ally to "help" them get rid of Hezbollah? I agree, yes, that the Lebanese can't do it themselves. But I DO NOT agree that it "must" be done by Israel. No one asked Israel to do this; not even the U.S.

Hezbollah is a rotting, gangrenous limb attached to Lebanon. Yes, it needs to be amputated. No, Lebanon cannot do this by itself. But Israel has NOT been invited to play surgeon here; to use that as your logic is completely out of whack. When the fuck did a doctor perform an amputation by cutting off the patient's other three healthy limbs on the way to cutting off the diseased one? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

That was an error on my part, a prematurereplyation.

Okay, thank you. Nice new word, btw.

Quote:

Isreal does not want any of these guys to escape and I dont' blame them.

Do you know how tiny Lebanon is? The black humor of all this is that NO ONE in their right mind would even try to hide someone in Lebanon; it's too damn small.

I wouldn't expect Hezbollah to have hung around in Lebanon for very long at all after that kidnapping; Syria is just a short drive away (and I mean SHORT, less than a couple of hours), and no blockade of the water, air, and land of Lebanon within 24 hours could have prevented Hezbollah and Co. from escaping across that massive border to Syria within a short time after the kidnapping.

So: why isn't Israel bombing Syria? Why aren't they bombing Iran? EVERYONE knows that these are the crucial supporters of Hezbollah; and yet Israel chooses to beat up its rather tiny northern neighbor. If Israel REALLY wants to get rid of Hezbollah, they'd better turn their rage on Syria and Iran. Now that, I would like to see. EDIT: In that case I wouldn't cheer on Israel any more than I would cheer on anyone else participating in a war, but I would certainly be less harsh on Israel in that situation than I am being now.

Please discuss. I'm most interested to hear all your opinions on that last question.

07-14-2006, 03:00 AM	#3 (permalink)
maleficent Junkie Moderator Emeritus Location: Chicago	while you're praying, an additional one for our very own KTSPKTSP's family that is living in Lebanon, stay safe... Hezbollah should be gotten rid of, but there's gotta be a better way to doing it than bombing the crap out of people who don't deserve it... __________________ Free your heart from hatred. Free your mind from worries. Live simply. Give more. Expect less.

07-14-2006, 04:05 AM	#4 (permalink)
abaya Location: Iceland	By the way, there's an active thread discussing this same topic in Tilted Politics... but this one is more direct. I hope it picks up speed. I want to ask TFP'ers in other countries: how does your media portray this conflict? Is there disproportionate weight given to Israeli interests, as with every news source in America, or do you have more balanced reporting? I can only imagine how Americans' reactions might be different if we were fed something other than Israel = America's fortunate son. Maybe we would actually care about Lebanon being stuck in the middle. Then again, we seemed to care a hell of a lot about them last year when their Prime Minister was assassinated and "democracy" was the buzzword... but now that our "friend" is being destroyed (again) by momma's boy (with completely disproportionate use of force) we look the other way and even applaud the action. There's not much I can say. Clusterfuck. One big clusterfuck. There is no one party to blame... and yet, I cannot help but be very frustrated with the apathy of so many Americans. How can we be so blind? __________________ And think not you can direct the course of Love; for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course. --Khalil Gibran

07-14-2006, 04:37 AM	#5 (permalink)
stevo Rail Baron Location: Tallyfla	Lebanon is indeed stuck in the middle. I knew a lebanese young man in the summer of 2001, this was before 9/11. We would talk about middle east politics and world politics and he would swear up and down that the Lebanese were not terrorists, but the terrorists were from outside and had taken over the country and there was no way the citizens could truely get rid of them. But what is Israel to do? We have forced israel to go on with the "road map to peace" the 2 state solution. You can't have a roadmap to peace or a 2 state solution with an enemy who won't acknowledge your right to exist. How do you retaliate when groups attack you, fire rockets into your country, kidnap and kill your soldiers and citizens? Israel has played it restrained for most of this decade. How much longer must she fight with one hand tied behind he back? We weren't preaching restraint when we fought the japanese in WW2, we let them know it was either unconditional surrender or total anialation. Eventually we got the surrender with the total destruction of 2 cities and not a whole country. I'm not in any way advocating that israel should use nuclear weapons, only that they need not show restraint. They need to dominate the enemy in order to end the violence. __________________ "If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

07-14-2006, 06:10 AM	#6 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	Go Israel! I do hope those who do not support the terrorists but live under their control do not suffer in this conflict, but there is little that can be done to protect them besides removing said terrorists. I don't know why the left had decided they are on the side of mysogynistic, anti-democracy, anti-personal freedom side of the terrorists and they have given the Palestinians the most one sided biased press coverage that I can think of outside of a WWII propaganda film. But they did and Israel has taken it up the ass for a long time trying to keep the international community 'happy'. I'm glad to see they are doing what they should have done almost 10 years ago. This isn't about negotiations right now, or for the last 50 years. Israel is fighting enemies which want them destroyed, they speak of prophecies of the Jews all being killed, they think they are doing gods will, yet we are suppose to think its just the fault of the Israelis. Perhaps if the European press wasn't so blatantly anti-Israeli (as well as much of the US press, but to a lessor degree) some pressure could have been put on the Palestinians a long time ago to really compromise instead of just biding their time, but they didn't, its too late. These are the people who danced in the streets when 9/11 happened, these are the people who voted in a terrorist government in their last election, these are the people who glorify children blowing themselves up in public places, and they now reap what they sew. Go Israel! __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

07-14-2006, 06:31 AM	#8 (permalink)
Gatorade Frost Rookie	Haven't we been expecting WWIII to come out of every Israeli/Middle Eastern war thta's occurred over the last century? Except now the rest of the ME doesn't have the USSR backing it. I think this is just another one of those minor skirmishes that happens all too often. __________________ I got in a fight one time with a really big guy, and he said, "I'm going to mop the floor with your face." I said, "You'll be sorry." He said, "Oh, yeah? Why?" I said, "Well, you won't be able to get into the corners very well." Emo Philips

07-14-2006, 06:44 AM	#11 (permalink)
Gatorade Frost Rookie	Well, I guess we'll see. __________________ I got in a fight one time with a really big guy, and he said, "I'm going to mop the floor with your face." I said, "You'll be sorry." He said, "Oh, yeah? Why?" I said, "Well, you won't be able to get into the corners very well." Emo Philips

07-14-2006, 06:44 AM	#12 (permalink)
highthief Junkie Location: Ontario, Canada	I'm begining to hope both sides annihilate each other and we can go back to peace and quiet and cheap oil. __________________ Si vis pacem parabellum.

07-14-2006, 06:49 AM	#14 (permalink)
Gatorade Frost Rookie	Yeah, I don't want the US to get involved with it either. Same with China. We're all too closely connected via the economy to want to get into a war between Israel and the rest of the ME. __________________ I got in a fight one time with a really big guy, and he said, "I'm going to mop the floor with your face." I said, "You'll be sorry." He said, "Oh, yeah? Why?" I said, "Well, you won't be able to get into the corners very well." Emo Philips

07-14-2006, 07:13 AM	#19 (permalink)
Ample Psycho Location: In your closet	I would like to ask everyone to think of this senerio. We have radical groups here, say that they went to a country that we don’t real like but not at war with, such as Cuba or Venezuela. Kidnapped and killed some of their solders. Cuba/Venezuela wants something done about it. We do little or nothing. So Cuba/Venezuela takes matters into their own hands and starts shooting rockets in the suburbs of Houston. Then Cuba/Venezuela says you know there is a branch of this radical group outside of Toronto, and thinking about going after that once they are done in Houston. Seems a lot of people want to give Isreal a little sympathy, cause they are Isreal. If someone did something like that to us, everyone would see it different. Just something to think about. __________________ Her juju beads are so nice She kissed my third cousin twice Im the king of pomona

07-14-2006, 07:51 AM	#21 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	I'm sorry about what happened in WWII, but I was born in 1983, so I don't feel guilt for it. Israel is out of line attacking civilian targets. They have been out of line every time they have attacked civilian targets. Palestinian militants have been wrong every time they have attacked civilian targets. Hezbollah, an independant radical group, are wrong for attacking anything. Lebanon didn't attack Israel. Israel attacked Lebanon. Unless I see prooof that the Hezbollah actions were connected to those people in the airport who died, Israel will remain on my shit list.

07-14-2006, 07:56 AM	#22 (permalink)
powerclown Junkie Location: Detroit, MI	The bottom line - and why I support Israel in this - is that the Palestinians, Syrians, Iranians don't want to negotiate with Israel, they want it destroyed. Syria employs Hamas to do its dirty work and Iran employs Hezbollah for same. Lebanon is to blame for allowing Hezbollah to operate in its country, implicitly lending it support. Israel left Gaza months ago, and they left Lebanon 6 years ago, and they continue to be attacked from both locations. So now it looks like Israel is seriously going after Hezbollah, instead of the usual pinpricks. They are apparently pressuring Lebanon to stop providing Hezbollah with a base of attack on Israel. Civilians are suffering and being killed on both sides. Israel is being hit with hundreds of rockets, many made by Iran. The arab countries are taking casualties and damage as a direct result of their irresponsible leadership, continued shelling of Israel, and their collective decision not to negotiate with Israel. This latest round of violence was deliberately started by Iran and Syria. Iran planned the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers to distract from it's nuclear situation, which is shortly going up for review in the UN Security Council. Israel has the right to defend themselves from aggressors bent on their destruction. America is right to support their only democratic ally in the region.

07-14-2006, 08:19 AM	#25 (permalink)
stevo Rail Baron Location: Tallyfla	Whats with all the scenerios? How about looking at what is really going on and not some hypothetical? Powerclown is dead-on. The IDF is not indiscriminately bombing civillian targets, they are doing what it takes to cripple Hamas' and Hezbollah's ability to wage war. You do that by knocking out infrastructure, electricity, transportation routes, etc. Should Israel attack syria, which will happen eventually before there is an actual end to this situation, Iran is sure to involve itself, thus the US and Britain will be there. Get prepared boys. Its almost time. __________________ "If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

07-14-2006, 09:12 AM	#31 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	no-one seems to want to address the real-time contexts for this--narratives abour wanting to destroy israel are in the main outmoded--they function to justify irrational responses, like the invasion of lebanon--but they are being abandoned bit by bit. hamas has de facto abandoned this element of its platform. that hasnt stopped israel from pulverizing the gaza strip. that action is not about shalit--it is about destroying the palestinian government because they do not like hamas--that action continues, is a humanitarian crisis of significant proportions--and as usual the united states does fuck all to stop it, to influence it. the follow-up claim is that there can be no negociations because there is no-one to negociate with. (well not directly at least--at an arm's distance, negociations happen.) meanwhile, 1.5 million people in gaza experience the grinding reality caused by the israeli blockade. just as they have experienced years and years of brutality at the hands of a regional military superpower, which the palestinians fight using tactics that i deplore, but which i can at least understand. clearly it is the palestinian groups which are the "terrorists" here. routinised brutality carried out by a state military cannot be "terrorism" right? you'd have to be an idiot not to connect hezbollah's actions as being linked to what israel is doing in gaza. for the sequence of actual events, look at the graphic i posted earlier--hezbollah launched a rocket attack and took 2 israeli hostages--which is not a good move and i do not condone it--THEN israel invaded southern lebanon--THEN more rocket attacks. to invade southern lebanon over this seems to me absurd. completely, wholly absurd. to cut lebanon off from the world, to destroy the airport, impose a naval blockade, and to bomb suburbs killing 50 in the first day--this seems to me a totally disproportionate response to any sane assessment of the situation. the americans can say nothing of any substance because their actions in iraq prevent them form saying anything. on what possible basis could this administration make a criticism of israel's invasion of lebanon? so all i see here is the bush administration framing itself out of having any meanignful role in this, except for its usual unqualified support for israeli military actions. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

07-14-2006, 09:26 AM	#32 (permalink)
ASU2003 immoral minority Location: Back in Ohio	What is with the media? One Israeli woman and child are injured and they are victims. How many Lebanese people have been injured or killed by the actions Israel has taken? It's bias in the news like this that makes me have to filter it out so much. I could care less about who wins. If Israel (and the religious anti-muslim) people of the world take over about ~12 countries in that region, yea for them. If the 12 Islamic states go to war and reclaim Israel, it will be a little more peaceful until the sunnis and shittes start at it again. It must be convenient to have 1/10th of the US military setup all over two of the Islamic countries...

07-14-2006, 11:44 AM	#37 (permalink)
Gatorade Frost Rookie	Nevermind. __________________ I got in a fight one time with a really big guy, and he said, "I'm going to mop the floor with your face." I said, "You'll be sorry." He said, "Oh, yeah? Why?" I said, "Well, you won't be able to get into the corners very well." Emo Philips