Israel invades Lebanon, Hezbollah attacks N. Israel - Page 5 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Charlatan · 07-17-2006, 08:13 PM

Moved to Politics where this thread belongs...

host · 07-18-2006, 03:10 AM

I've read four full pages of this thread. I think that the following article is a fitting response that sums up my reaction to the "black and white" views that have been posted over the four pages:

From the " the cynic librarian":

Quote:

http://faithisrisk.blogspot.com/2006...us-expand.html
Defining why Israel's interests do not in any way coincide with US interests is not an easy matter. After the many years of careful and deliberate PR and media campaigns, it is almost a given that what affects Israel affects me or mine. That might be so--but it should not affect me in a disproportionately unjust way that I harm others who deserve the same respect as I pay Israel.

Coming to the conclusion that Israel's interests do not always or necessarily reflect US interests is not easy to make for people with little time to study foreign policy and the ways of propaganda. They are easily swayed and often take what their politicians do as representing their best interests.

Quote:

<a href="http://noquarter.typepad.com/my_weblog/2006/07/us_policy_in_le.html">Those who do have training and experience in the Mideast come to some very difficult conclusions concerning Israel. Ray Close, a former CIA analyst in the Near East division, as well as a Member, Steering Group, Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity, recently wrote:</a>

"Open confrontation of Hizballah by the United States, allied with Israel, will have a powerful impact on the Iranian people, as well. Argue, if you will, that Iran is a known supporter of Hizballah and Hamas, and thus of international terrorism. That is a reality that none can deny. But let’s prioritize our national interests here. It is the people of Iraq and Iran on whom we depend not just for “regime change” in the short term, but for peace and stability (and resistance to terrorism) throughout the region in the decades ahead. It is the people of those countries whose trust and respect we must win. It is the trust and respect of those people that we have lost --- to a significant extent because we are identified in their minds with the narrow interests of Israel. Why is that so difficult for Americans to understand?
"

As you note, the importance of how closely the US aligns itself with Israeli interests affect not only US security but also the life and well-being of many in the Mideast. The US should return to its tradition of fair play and equal treatment. Don't be played like a rube in a game whose outcome is foretold in advance and which only enriches the deceiver.

Some of us have made the time to do our own research, outside of the filtered stream of "news" that many people "know what they know", as a result of. I cannot stress the signifigance of the fact that a search of the NY Times website, indicates that they have never reported on JINSA. Each of you owes it to yourself to inform yourself independently, if you truly hope to put what is happening now in the M.E., in a context that balances American interests, vs. the interests of all of the other parties involved. If you can see yourself described the way the article above does, in this phrase:

Quote:

Coming to the conclusion that Israel's interests do not always or necessarily reflect US interests is not easy to make for people with little time to study foreign policy and the ways of propaganda.

then you've got work to do...and it never stops....it's a lifelong pursuit, IMO...

Read the thread here on poliics, titled "Chemical Attack"....you may observe that there is much more independent information linked and displayed in the posts there, than in the four pages on this thread....

Xazy · 07-18-2006, 03:44 AM

On a side point that no one has mentioned. All this happened with a peace keeping armed force of 2000 troops from the UN in southern Lebannon.... So we had a UN resolution to tell Hezballah to disarm, we had troops there supposedly to help keep the peace, and still they were able to attack Israel.

Ustwo · 07-18-2006, 05:49 AM

Now that its on the parinoia board, I'm done.

stevo · 07-18-2006, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

Hezbollah should be disbanded, and it's members brought to justice by the courts of their victims. Those in Syria and Iran should also be brought to justice. You'd think that would go wiothout saying, but I'm saying it anyway.

So let's review:
-Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, and other radical terrorists = bad, and should be brought to justice by courts
-Israel = wrong, should stop bombing the living crap out of civilians that mean Israel no harm

Without an army how would Hezbollah be brought down? Is some court just going to issue a warrent of some sort and hezbollah will just decide to disarm and turn themselves in? Who in syria and iran should be brought to justice? the leadership I'm assuming. How do you go about and bring these people to justice without violent force? They aren't just going to walk into the hague and hand over the keys to tehran or damascus. Sometimes war is necessary. Sometimes innocents die as a result. But if action was not taken, scores more innocents would continue to die in the future. in suicide bombings. in rocket attacks. in hostage takings.

and please stop saying israel is targeting civillians. You know thats not the case. Hundreds of rockets were fired from lebanon yesterday into israel. Hundreds. at one time, for over an hour, rocket fire averaged one per minute. Aimed at apartment buildings and hospitals. Not weapons storehouses, weapons manufacturing houses, ports where weapons can be delivered, roads where weapons can be transported. Because civillians die does not mean they are targeted. You know this, please stop lying.

Cynthetiq · 07-18-2006, 05:56 AM

I spoke with a young lady here at work who is a Lebanese Christian, she's distressed about the situation because her brother and grandmoter are currently stuck in Lebanon. The US Consulate is trying to evacuate US citizens to Cyprus.

She explained to me that 1/2 of the city is Muslim and the other is Christian. The Christian side is less affected directly but mostly affected by the loss of services like electricity and food stores.

She also stated that most of the income is tourism related so their economic income for the year is bad.

Xazy · 07-18-2006, 06:09 AM

Article

Quote:

Middle East: Response and Responsibility
Hezbollah, along with its Syrian and Iranian backers, bear the blame for the Israel-Lebanon crisis.

MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT: Responsibility for the escalating carnage in Lebanon and northern Israel lies with one side, and one side only. And that is Hezbollah, the Islamist militant party, along with its Syrian and Iranian backers. Reasonable minds can differ on the strategic wisdom of the Israeli response, but there can be no doubt about the blame for the mounting death toll on both sides of the border.

The international community has not been sufficiently forthright about this. A statement issued Sunday by the Group of 8 leaders meeting in Russia acknowledged that the crisis was triggered by cross-border raids on Israel by Hamas in Gaza and by Hezbollah in Lebanon. But reflecting Russian and French concerns, the statement shied away from pointing the finger at Damascus and Tehran. Instead, it merely condemned "the extremist elements and those that support them."
This is cynical diplomatese for "You know who you are." And it comes from a group stacked with ostensible U.S. allies (plus Russia); diplomatic efforts from other quarters are likely to be even more unsatisfying.

As the magnitude of the fighting becomes more horrifying — with Hezbollah and the Israeli military trading missiles and bombs, killing scores of civilians in the crossfire — it is important not only to bear in mind what triggered this crisis but the conflict's larger context. Ever since Israel unilaterally withdrew troops from southern Lebanon in 2000 and from Gaza last year, radical Islamists have stepped up their war on the Israeli state. The Israeli pullout from Lebanon was supposed to be followed by the Lebanese army's occupation of the border region and the disarmament of Hezbollah. Instead, the Islamist group, a minority faction in Beirut's government, operates in southern Lebanon as a separate state-within-a-state.

In the Palestinian territories, meanwhile, the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza was followed by the triumph at the polls of Hamas. Both Hamas and Hezbollah, which have a pact to collaborate in attacking Israel, are backed by the Iranian government of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who himself has called for Israel to be "wiped off the map."

The danger now is that democratic political moderation across the Arab world will be another victim of this warfare. Moderate secular voices in Gaza and Lebanon are increasingly sidelined as fighting intensifies. And try selling the Israeli public now on the wisdom of a broad pullout from the West Bank.

So this latest conflagration in the Middle East presents a challenge for nations such as Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt, which have long paid lip service to the desirability of moderation in the region. It's fine for them to raise questions, as this page has done, about the proportionality of Israel's response. But these nations, and the international community, should be prepared to place blame for this crisis where it belongs: on Hezbollah, Hamas and their state sponsors. Only then can work begin, not only to secure a cease-fire but to weaken the radical fundamentalist groups that are intent on preventing Israelis and their Arab neighbors from living in peace.

The truth is the terrorists have won, this article states it very fairly the result of what happens when they get a response. Which is why I have been anti-response to a lot of the small attacks. But I now myself am pro everything that Israel has done, since a nation has to defends itself, and can only take so much before they MUST strike back.

Quote:

he also stated that most of the income is tourism related so their economic income for the year is bad.

since the infidada (sorry can not recall how you spell it), the Israeli tourism industry has been hit horribly. Imagine traveling there, and knowing that suicide bombers aim to strike at tourist sites, bars, restaurants etc… I can imagine now that lebannon would have a big problem with tourism, and I can only attempt to imagine how that hurts their economy (I know first hand how it struck some people I know in Israel).

UN's Idea

Quote:

Hezbollah's little helpers
TODAY'S EDITORIAL
July 18, 2006

As Israel fights to break the back of one of the world's most dangerous terrorist organizations, United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan has come up with a very bad idea. He wants to throw a lifeline to Hezbollah, dispatching U.N. peacekeepers to Lebanon. Perhaps Mr. Annan and other advocates of such a force can tell us how many peacekeepers would be necessary, whether Hezbollah would be required to disarm, and, if so, who would disarm them.
Mr. Annan must explain how his peacekeepers would differ from the current U.N. Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL), which has failed miserably ever since it was dispatched in 1978. UNIFIL was created following the Coastal Road Massacre of March 11, 1978 -- when Palestinian terrorists based in Lebanon and affiliated with Yasser Arafat's Palestine Liberation Organization entered Israel along the Mediterranean coast and hijacked a bus. Thirty-six hostages died. In response, the Israel Defense Force invaded southern Lebanon to destroy terrorist bases there. The U.N. Security Council responded by adopting Resolution 425, calling on Israel to "immediately" withdraw from Lebanon and establishing UNIFIL for the purpose of "assisting the government of Lebanon in ensuring the return of its effective authority to the area."
In June 1982, UNIFIL failed to stop Palestinian terrorist groups from attacking Israel and forced an occupation of much of Lebanon, leading to the destruction of the Palestinian terrorist bases there. With substantial Syrian and Iranian complicity, Hezbollah supplanted the PLO as the dominant terrorist organization in Lebanon. In 1985, Israel withdrew from Lebanese territory but for a small security zone on Lebanon's southern border, required to prevent attacks on Israel. Over the next 15 years, UNIFIL was mostly worthless, unable to stop Hezbollah attacks but remarkably successful in getting in the way of Israelis defending themselves. Dore Gold, a former Israeli ambassador to the United Nations, describes how this worked: "Hezbollah would launch military attacks 50 meters from a UNIFIL outpost, Israel would shoot back and UNIFIL would protest against the Israeli response."
When Israel withdrew from the security zone in May 2000, UNIFIL was worthless again, as Hezbollah rushed to the border to establish a terrorist presence the U.N. forces could only observe. On Oct. 7, 2000, Hezbollah operatives used cars disguised as U.N. vehicles to kidnap and kill three Israeli soldiers. When Israel asked UNIFIL for a videotape of the cars that Hezbollah used in the kidnapping, U.N. officials lied, telling them that no such tape existed. UNIFIL failed to prevent last week's Hezbollah raid, in which two Israeli soldiers were kidnapped and eight others died. That set off the current mess.
Once Hezbollah is defeated, disarmed and forced to return the soldiers kidnapped last week, someone may find a useful role for the United Nations to play in helping the Lebanese Army extend its authority to the south. For now, however, the Israeli military is doing more to enhance the long-term prospects for peace in Lebanon than the United Nations has ever done. Kofi Annan can perform a great service by staying out of the way.

Amen, about sometime called a spade to this idea. I know when I heard it I joked about it with my family in Israel, since the 2000 peace soldiers there now, did so much...

roachboy · 07-18-2006, 06:35 AM

you forget about the role of the israeli invasion of lebanon in creating and sustaining hezbollah....

but why consider history when ideology is so much more fun?

why is it that this kind of support for israel entails an absolute refusal to see israli responsibility for anything? how does this help? it certainly is worthless historically and analytically--i would have thought that political positions rested on some kind of historical and/or analytic base...

anyway this issue has come up explicitly in the other thread and so will refer folk to that rather than repeat here.

apologies for the cross-cut. not quite sure how to do the integrrating to themes across threads dance.

Infinite_Loser · 07-18-2006, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

you forget about the role of the israeli invasion of lebanon in creating and sustaining hezbollah....

but why consider history when ideology is so much more fun?

You also forget that in 1968 many Palestinians militants began to relocate to south Lebanon, for the sole purpose of launching periodic attacks against Israel.

...But, as you said, history isn't important.

Willravel · 07-18-2006, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo

Without an army how would Hezbollah be brought down? Is some court just going to issue a warrent of some sort and hezbollah will just decide to disarm and turn themselves in? Who in syria and iran should be brought to justice? the leadership I'm assuming. How do you go about and bring these people to justice without violent force? They aren't just going to walk into the hague and hand over the keys to tehran or damascus. Sometimes war is necessary. Sometimes innocents die as a result. But if action was not taken, scores more innocents would continue to die in the future. in suicide bombings. in rocket attacks. in hostage takings.

I suspect the answer lies in forcing the UN to back up it's own resolutions, but again, I'm not a military tactician. The UN troops located in Southern Lebanon could be deployed to go to the source of the Hezbollah rockets and stop them from being fired. We could also freeze accounts and stop the funding of Hezbollah by a few wealthy people in Iran and Syria.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo

and please stop saying israel is targeting civillians. You know thats not the case. Hundreds of rockets were fired from lebanon yesterday into israel. Hundreds. at one time, for over an hour, rocket fire averaged one per minute. Aimed at apartment buildings and hospitals. Not weapons storehouses, weapons manufacturing houses, ports where weapons can be delivered, roads where weapons can be transported. Because civillians die does not mean they are targeted. You know this, please stop lying.

Well if you are targeting a hospital that you know has people in it, aren't you targeting those people? If you're targeting an airport that you know is fillied with civilians, then aren't you targeting those civilians? I'm not lying at all. They are not hitting airports on accedent. They are not striking them at 3 am when there would be less people there. Have you asked yourself why over 150 lenabese have died, but only 24 Israelis have died since this began? It's simple: Israel is willing and able to destroy more because of their vastly superior military.

What amazes me is how you say: "and please stop saying israel is targeting civillians.", and then you go on to support that by saying that Hezbollah is targeting civilians. Again, we have this confusing logic that if one side is bad, then the other side is good. Both sides can and are killing civilians. Hazbollah is doing it deliberately, and Israel isn't doing anything to prevent their bombs killing civilians (actively and passively killing citizens has the same result, no matter what the intent).

Xazy · 07-18-2006, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

What amazes me is how you say: "and please stop saying israel is targeting civillians.", and then you go on to support that by saying that Hezbollah is targeting civilians. Again, we have this confusing logic that if one side is bad, then the other side is good. Both sides can and are killing civilians. Hazbollah is doing it deliberately, and Israel isn't doing anything to prevent their bombs killing civilians (actively and passively killing citizens has the same result, no matter what the intent).

So there is no difference someone targeting rockets at hospitals, and other civilian organizations, or trying to attack terrorists who are firing those rockets hiding amongst other civilians?

Willravel · 07-18-2006, 07:57 AM

Actively and passively killing civilians has the same result, no matter the intent. Pair that fact up with the fact that over 150 Lebanese people and around 24 Israeli people have died since this began, and the moral scale isn't as one sided. Israel was not trying to kill terrorists when they hit the airport. At best, they wer trying to destroy Lebanese infurstructure.

stevo · 07-18-2006, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

Actively and passively killing civilians has the same result, no matter the intent. Pair that fact up with the fact that over 150 Lebanese people and around 24 Israeli people have died since this began, and the moral scale isn't as one sided. Israel was not trying to kill terrorists when they hit the airport. At best, they wer trying to destroy Lebanese infurstructure.

Well duh. of course they were destroying the infrastructure. Thats part of war. Israel wants to keep syria and iran from flying more missiles in, so they take out the airport. Because it wasn't done at 3am doesn't mean israel was trying to target civillians. You say yourself you aren't a military tactician, so stop trying. You don't know that israeli intel had some information that required the runway to be bombed no later. You act as if israel leveled the terminal. A slab of concrete got holes put in it. No one died.

You seem to be missing the fact that the rockets fired into israel are coming from civillian areas in lebanon. they are being fired from apartment windows. Perhaps the "lop-sided" body count is that way because of how Hezbollah positions their forces and because they truely do not care for the people of lebanon. To them the death of innocents (muslim or not) is justified by the destruction of israel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

I suspect the answer lies in forcing the UN to back up it's own resolutions, but again, I'm not a military tactician. The UN troops located in Southern Lebanon could be deployed to go to the source of the Hezbollah rockets and stop them from being fired. We could also freeze accounts and stop the funding of Hezbollah by a few wealthy people in Iran and Syria.

Forcing the UN. did you just type that? how in the hell is anyone going to force the UN to do anything? The UN is useless as an enforcer of their own rules. THey write up documents and sometimes they are followed other times they aren't. Like UN Resolution 1559 - which was ignored. We all see how well the UN troops in south lebanon did at keeping hezbollah from attacking israel. Before you continue to clamor for UN troops please read Xazy's article a few posts up. Freezing accounts of "a few wealthy people in iran and syria? Its that simple is it?

So you assume israel, the US, and other western powers just have the ability to freeze iranian assets in iranian banks? how bout syrian assets in iranian banks? how would we go about doing that?

Your plan is weak and misguided.

aberkok · 07-18-2006, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo

Well duh. of course they were destroying the infrastructure. Thats part of war. Israel wants to keep syria and iran from flying more missiles in, so they take out the airport. Because it wasn't done at 3am doesn't mean israel was trying to target civillians.

You say yourself you aren't a military tactician, so stop trying.

You don't know that israeli intel had some information that required the runway to be bombed no later. You act as if israel leveled the terminal. A slab of concrete got holes put in it. No one died....
...Your plan is weak and misguided.

I'm curious to know what your military tactical credentials are in light of your evaluation of Israeli military strategy.

If Israel has any interest in peace, they need to acknowledge that both Hezbollah and Hamas...for better or worse, are now active in the elected governments of their respective peoples. Diplomacy and compromise are required now. Not killing.

stevo · 07-18-2006, 09:59 AM

Let me also add that its not just iranian funds that keep hezbollah going. Hezbollah is more of an arm of the Iranian military than it is an independent group. Many are trained in Iran and some of the rockets fired into israel are manufactured in iran. Israel has alleged that iran has sent over 100 members of Iran's elite Revolutionary Guards are in Lebanon acting as advisers to Hezbollah. So its more than just a few rich people that need to have their assets frozen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aberkok

I'm curious to know what your military tactical credentials are in light of your evaluation of Israeli military strategy.

If Israel has any interest in peace, they need to acknowledge that both Hezbollah and Hamas...for better or worse, are now active in the elected governments of their respective peoples. Diplomacy and compromise are required now. Not killing.

Israel only wants peace. It is hamas and hezbollah that don't. Israel has been playing the diplomacy/restraint game for years and it has got them nothing but more attacks. Israel has made concession after concession. Unilaterally pulling out of gaza and lebanon. when israel shows restraint and offers an olive branch the extremists view it as weakness and attack more. There is to be no peace with people who do not agree with your existence. You, aberkok, must understand that FIRST.

Quote:

Palestinian terrorism does not result from Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, but from Israel's existence. Palestinian terrorism long predates the 1967 occupation; the Palestine Liberation Organization was formed in 1964, three years earlier. But hasn't the more recent phenomenon of suicide bombing come about because of long-simmering Palestinian despair? Not really. Suicide bombings started only after the 1993 Oslo Accords, which provided Palestinians with their best opportunity for a state. They intensified massively after Israel withdrew from Lebanon and offered a series of generous territorial concessions.

an excerpt from http://www.slate.com/?id=2065703

Willravel · 07-18-2006, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo

Well duh. of course they were destroying the infrastructure. Thats part of war. Israel wants to keep syria and iran from flying more missiles in, so they take out the airport. Because it wasn't done at 3am doesn't mean israel was trying to target civillians. You say yourself you aren't a military tactician, so stop trying. You don't know that israeli intel had some information that required the runway to be bombed no later. You act as if israel leveled the terminal. A slab of concrete got holes put in it. No one died.

Well, I will have to bow to your obvious game theory degree from West Point, then. How was I to know that not only are you a military tactician, but you also are so knowledgable that you are able to insinuate that Israel had intel that lead them to know the best time to bomb the airport at Beirut with such confidence? My favorite quote above is "No one died". Well no one died at the airport....so then all the other deaths somehow don't count.

Stevo, over 150 Lebonese civilians are reported dead as of yesterday. Those people were not firing rockets at Israel. Israel has not formally declaired war against Lebanon, so I have to assume that these are simply murders.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo

You seem to be missing the fact that the rockets fired into israel are coming from civillian areas in lebanon. they are being fired from apartment windows. Perhaps the "lop-sided" body count is that way because of how Hezbollah positions their forces and because they truely do not care for the people of lebanon. To them the death of innocents (muslim or not) is justified by the destruction of israel.

Except Hezbollah isn't targeting military, they are simply firing blindly into populated areas. Again, for the millionth time, Hezbollah is a horrible group of terrorists, who I want to see destroyed. They have done nothing but terrorize Israel and Lebanon for years (just because they built a few hospitals in Lebanon doesn't erase the blood from their hands). Their crude tactics are endangering Lebanese citizens.

The cause of the lopsided body count is obvious: Israel has the largest and most technologically advanced military in the region. They are decades ahead of the other militaries due in no small part to the US's relationship with Israel. What does this mean? 1) Israel could wipe Lebanon from the face of the earth, if they so wished, but 2) Israel is also capable of surgical strikes. They don't need to simply level a city block, when they can destroy a single building, and leave everyone around it shaken, but alive. The death count stands in contrast with that situation. Over 150 dea, and almost none of them are Hezbollah tells me that either Israel has HORRIBLE intel (as in worse than US intel on WMDs), or they simply aren't trying to avoid killing innocent Labanese. The second seems more likely. It feels like it might be punishment for not getting rid of the Hezbollah durring the civil war.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo

Forcing the UN. did you just type that? how in the hell is anyone going to force the UN to do anything? The UN is useless as an enforcer of their own rules. THey write up documents and sometimes they are followed other times they aren't. Like UN Resolution 1559 - which was ignored. We all see how well the UN troops in south lebanon did at keeping hezbollah from attacking israel. Before you continue to clamor for UN troops please read Xazy's article a few posts up. Freezing accounts of "a few wealthy people in iran and syria? Its that simple is it?

So you assume israel, the US, and other western powers just have the ability to freeze iranian assets in iranian banks? how bout syrian assets in iranian banks? how would we go about doing that?

Yes, I wrote forcing the UN. The nice thing about posts is that one can reread them. If the UN is to be more than a figurehead, then it must be able to stand on it's own two feet. Part of that is being able to set rules, and then enforce them. As stated a few posts up, then UN has forces in Lebanon. So how does one force the UN to do something? Well my favorite way is nonviolent protests. Have you ever blocaded a building? I have. If an organization or group were so inclined, they could blocade the UN. I'm pulling ideas out of my ass, but if that plan took me a fraction of a second to think of, imagine someone smarter spending a day thinking of something.

As for the freezing of accounts....I don't know, but at least I'm trying to think of an alternative instead of backing war to a fault.

The bottom line stays the same: Israel is killing civilians that have nothing to do with the attacks on Israel, and it's wrong.

Cynthetiq · 07-18-2006, 12:38 PM

an interesting media selection from NYTimes.com

Turmoil in the Middle East: Fury without letup

While someone out there will say that it's the NYTimes it's biased, I say at least watch the media, there's a section on Lebanon and one on Israel, and one on the diplomacy with respect to outside governments.

Infinite_Loser · 07-18-2006, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aberkok

If Israel has any interest in peace, they need to acknowledge that both Hezbollah and Hamas...for better or worse, are now active in the elected governments of their respective peoples. Diplomacy and compromise are required now. Not killing.

Both Hezbollah and Hamas want the utter destruction of Israel and nothing less. Diplomacy hasn't worked in the past, so what makes you think that Hezbollah and/or Hamas would be willing to negotiate with Israel now?

Charlatan · 07-18-2006, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser

Both Hezbollah and Hamas want the utter destruction of Israel and nothing less. Diplomacy hasn't worked in the past, so what makes you think that Hezbollah and/or Hamas would be willing to negotiate with Israel now?

It doesn't matter what worked or didn't work in the past. The only real solution to this conflict will require diplomacy. If Hamas won't recognize Israel so be it. Israel *still* needs to continue to extend the olive branch...

That said, I feel that Israel's actions, while seemingly over the top and certainly not a step towards peace, are justified in the context of Israel waging a war on Hezbollah.

Taking out airports, bridges and roads, while also seeking the launch sites is justified given the belief (right or wrong -- though it is most certain right) that Syria and Iran will continue to supply Hezbollah with arms.

Since they cannot take the war to Syria and Iran they must keep Iran and Syria out of the picture as much as they can.

In the end, I am still not happy with either side in this conflict. Hezbollah needs to be taken out. Their actions are criminal and unjustified. Israel though, has a long history of fucking with its neighbours. I won't go as far as to say they've brought this upon themselves, as that is not entirely fair. I will simply say that Israel's hands are not clean in all of this.

I have no solution for this mess. All I can do is shake my head as Lebannon is once more made the battlefield for other's issues. They are proving to be the Belgium of the Middle East.

Infinite_Loser · 07-18-2006, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

It doesn't matter what worked or didn't work in the past. The only real solution to this conflict will require diplomacy. If Hamas won't recognize Israel so be it. Israel *still* needs to continue to extend the olive branch...

Israel offered Hezbollah a cease-fire as long as the two kidnapped soldiers were returned and as long as the Lebanese government complied with United Nation's Security Resolution 1559. Unsurprisingly, Hezbollah refused any kind of cease fire and has vowed to continue fighting.

What country in the world would continue to extend an olive branch to those people who continue to shell it's cities, kill it's citizens and kidnap it's soldier?

Quote:

I have no solution for this mess. All I can do is shake my head as Lebanon is once more made the battlefield for other's issues. They are proving to be the Belgium of the Middle East.

Is Lebanon the Belgium of the Middle East? Hardly. If the terrorists are a part of your government, then you have to accept the consequences of that decision.

Israel hadn't occupied Lebanon since 2000, as they pulled out over six years ago. Does anyone remember United Nation's Security Resolution 1559? Apparently not, because the United Nation's isn't enforcing it and neither is Lebanon. Hezbollah continues to attack Israel from a place which they were supposed to be removed from almost two years ago. Lebanon's defense is that they're too weak to remove the Hezbollah located in southern Lebanon. Well, that's fine and dandy, but if you're going to continue to allow a political faction located inside of your country to indescrimately fire rockets into another country, then you know that you run the risk of retaliation.

Do you think that if Hezbollah were firing rockets into the United States or Great Britain or any other western country that we'd be having this debate?

Willravel · 07-18-2006, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser

Do you think that if Hezbollah were firing rockets into the United States or Great Britain or any other western country that we'd be having this debate?

I sure would.

Charlatan · 07-18-2006, 03:07 PM

You can toss around Resolution 1559 all you want, it doesn't change the fact that unless Hezbollah wants to disarm they will never be disarmed.

The Lebanese army can't do it.
The Israeli's can't do it.
The UN can't do it.

The fact that Hezbollah is part of a coalition government is not the fault of the rest of Lebannon.

Lebanon is not to blame for this any more than Israel is to blame for this... think about it.

DJ Happy · 07-18-2006, 11:35 PM

I hardly think Israel's in a position to demand that others comply with UN Security Council resolutions.

Infinite_Loser · 07-19-2006, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

You can toss around Resolution 1559 all you want, it doesn't change the fact that unless Hezbollah wants to disarm they will never be disarmed.

The Lebanese army can't do it.
The Israeli's can't do it.
The UN can't do it.

While they might not ever be disarmed, Israel shouldn't take a passive approach to Hezbollah when they continue to shell Israeli towns. It's better to do something rather than to do nothing and hope the situation gets better.

Quote:

The fact that Hezbollah is part of a coalition government is not the fault of the rest of Lebannon.

No, it's the fault of the Lebanese government. I don't think they have even tried to expell Hezbollah from their country.

Quote:

Lebanon is not to blame for this any more than Israel is to blame for this... think about it.

I don't really agree with that statement. I suppose you are referring to the fact that Hezbollah was created in 1982/1983 after the Israeli occupation of Lebanon. Though, I would like to point out that Islamic militants have been in souther Lebanon, attacking Israel, since 1968.

Israel no longer occupies Lebanon-- They haven't since 2000-- Yet Hezbollah, which is located inside of Lebanon, continues to attack Israel. In this situation, I solely blame the fact that Lebanon's government is completely inept and incapable of controlling terrorist factions in their own country.

Charlatan · 07-19-2006, 05:12 AM

Loser... read what I said again. Neither Lebanon nor Israel is to blame for Hezbollah.

__________________________

The reason this is happening is because, Hezbollah was on notice. The were on the slippery slope to irrelevancy. Resolution 1559 and the ousting of Syria from Lebanon combined with the fact that Israel was backing off. The writing was on the wall.

How to make yourself relevant? Start a war!

While I would never expect them to do it, the perfect response from Israel would have been to do nothing. Take a non-confrontational approach. Defend the border but just suck up the casualties.

The pain and destruction would have been a lot to bear BUT, the Public Relations battle would eventually be won.

Then they would offer to work with the UN and the Lebanese Army to rid the world of the irrelevant Hezbollah.

It would take longer and there would be lives lost but it could be more lasting peace.

The current approach will work and it will work quickly and with a reduced loss of life in the Israeli side. But it won't solve anything. It will just bring back the status quo... in the meantime, in the face of an agressive Israel, Hezbollah is relevant once more.

Mojo_PeiPei · 07-19-2006, 01:31 PM

For the record, Israel and Lebanon are at war, they have been for over 50 years. Same goes for Iran, and Syria, probably Saudi Arabia too.

Countries like Egypt and Jordan used to be at war with Israel; Israel then came in and kicked ass, life for Egypt and Jordan has been a million times better since making peace. Hell Egypt is the second largest recipient of American aid, and Jordan is a key ally in the region and for the war on terror.

I don't know how you establish that the Lebanese people have no blame in electing Hezbollah to their government. Hezbollah has gained seats in every election since they've started having them in 92' ( I think thats the year), Hezbollah has 2 ministers in the government, and is supported by others: To me it seems like the situation with Hamas, the people of Lebanon and Palestine enabled these terrorists, Lebanon and Palestine are fully responsible as sovereign nations. At the same time Israel has FULL RIGHTS to do whatever they want as they see fit to defend themselves as a sovereign nation.

As usually the peaceniks who are calling for peace and diplomacy are misguided, I don't know how it doesn't register with you: People like Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, Syria, don't want peace, they want Israel and all the evil zionist jews destroyed, they cannot be talked to rationally because they are not rational.

I am really getting sick of Israel beating around the bush, they need to buck up and go into Lebanon and Syria, hopefully provoking Iran, and escalate this conflict so it can be ended once and for all. Again I refer you to the relationship(s) of Egypt and Jordan with Israel: Since Sadat made peace in the 70s shit has been alright, might not be peachy, but there haven't been problems with terrorism. Same goes for Jordan.

Willravel · 07-19-2006, 01:34 PM

I've never been called a peacenik before. I rather enjoy it.

Infinite_Loser · 07-19-2006, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

Loser... read what I said again. Neither Lebanon nor Israel is to blame for Hezbollah.

All right. I agree with what you said to a point. While neither one may be to blame exclusively for Hezbollah's actions, I place more blame on the Lebanese government for their failure to take an active role on removing Hezbollah from southern Lebanon than I do on Israel.

Xazy · 07-20-2006, 05:40 AM

You have to realize these terrorist organizations on purpose work out of populated areas. They hide from retaliation by living, breathing, hiding amongst ‘civilians.’ If Israel decides well we can not go after them because of civilians, they win and continue to have free rein to attack civilians with rockets. And If Israel does actually attack, and civilians are killed, the international community yells at Israel, for ‘disproportionate force.’ Of course this only leads to encourage the terrorists to organize, live, and attack within ‘human shields’ / populated areas.

If I go and hold someone hostage, for money or something, and threaten to kill the person, and the hostage dies who is held responsible? I am it is considered murder. So why is it not the same for terrorists?

I found a lot of these ideas and some other comments in some op/ed page i was reading, I wish I could find the article, but sadly I have been reading everything on Israel I can find all day, so it is somewhere lost in my history.

JustJess · 07-20-2006, 07:19 AM

From CNN

Quote:

'Do not sleep with Hezbollah'

Israel has said it is trying to avoid hurting civilians and it dropped fresh batches of leaflets over the past 24 hours.

The notices written in Arabic warn of impending operations against Hezbollah militants.

"Do not sleep or stand with Hezbollah in the same place," the leaflets warned.

"We are calling on the Lebanese people and army to avoid giving aid -- direct or indirect -- to Hezbollah elements. Anyone who does so will expose themselves and their lives to danger."

More attacks are expected to target missile launch sites, ammunition depots, and Hezbollah bases in southern Beirut and southern Lebanon, IDF said.

On Wednesday, Israeli warplanes dropped 23 tons of bombs on a bunker where Hezbollah leaders were holed up, according to the IDF.

This, I can agree with. This *almost* makes sense. This isn't as horrible an idea as just bombing.

Still hate that Lebanon is getting creamed, civilians will be hurt anyway, etc. Still disagree that it would be so simple as all of you seem to think to just ditch Hezbollah out - there would be LOT of deaths there too, and how is that any better?

Can we agree that there are no good guys here? There's no black and white; everything is grey.

stevo · 07-20-2006, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustJess

From CNN

Can we agree that there are no good guys here? There's no black and white; everything is grey.

nope. not at all. if everything is grey, then why fight? Do you still not understand what is going on here? That this is much more than just a small group of people fighting israel? What is happening in Lebanon is part of the struggle between syria and iran on the one side and israel on the other. It is between people who have stated over and over they wish to see israel wiped off the face of the planet. What is israel to do? negotiate? pull back?

Here's some information: After israel withdrew from gaza, over the last 5 months over 800 kassam rockets were fired into southwest israel. Then hamas kills 2 soldiers and takes 1 hostage. a few days later, completely unprovoked, hezbollah deicdes they like that idea, mount several raids, kill 8 israeli soldiers and kidnap 2.

and israel should negotiate? hold back? submit to world pressure. the same world pressure that let UN Res. 1559 go unfulfilled. If israel were to submit to an internationally-imposed ceasefire without completely descimating hezbollah, nothing would have been acomplished but death and destruction. No lasting positive results would come. Hezbollah would take a year or two to re-group, re-arm, and be emboldened, knowing they can attack israel at will and wait for the international community to call off israel's retaliation. All the while Iran will be coming closer and closer to obtaining a nuclear weapon. Perhaps not to use overtly, but to hold over the region's head, so to speak.

Any international force sent in for a "peace-keeping" mission will ultimately become terrorist targets in light blue hats. What makes you, or anyone, think that tucks full of explolsives won't be driven into buildings housing the peace-keepers, a-la beirut 1983 when 241 americans and 58 french soldiers were killed by hezbollah terrorists?

This is black and white. clearly black and white. this entire situation will not have a resolution until the ones unwilling to negotiate, the ones that do not want peace - READ: iran, syria, islamic militants - ARE DEAD. and the ones remaining realize there is no sense in fighting and dying anymore since israel isn't going anywhere.

host · 07-20-2006, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo

nope. not at all. if everything is grey, then why fight? Do you still not understand what is going on here? That this is much more than just a small group of people fighting israel? What is happening in Lebanon is part of the struggle between syria and iran on the one side and israel on the other. It is between people who have stated over and over they wish to see israel wiped off the face of the planet. What is israel to do? negotiate? pull back?

Here's some information: After israel withdrew from gaza, over the last 5 months over 800 kassam rockets were fired into southwest israel. Then hamas kills 2 soldiers and takes 1 hostage. a few days later, completely unprovoked, hezbollah deicdes they like that idea, mount several raids, kill 8 israeli soldiers and kidnap 2.

and israel should negotiate? hold back? submit to world pressure. the same world pressure that let UN Res. 1559 go unfulfilled. If israel were to submit to an internationally-imposed ceasefire without completely descimating hezbollah, nothing would have been acomplished but death and destruction. No lasting positive results would come. Hezbollah would take a year or two to re-group, re-arm, and be emboldened, knowing they can attack israel at will and wait for the international community to call off israel's retaliation. All the while Iran will be coming closer and closer to obtaining a nuclear weapon. Perhaps not to use overtly, but to hold over the region's head, so to speak.

Any international force sent in for a "peace-keeping" mission will ultimately become terrorist targets in light blue hats. What makes you, or anyone, think that tucks full of explolsives won't be driven into buildings housing the peace-keepers, a-la beirut 1983 when 241 americans and 58 french soldiers were killed by hezbollah terrorists?

This is black and white. clearly black and white. this entire situation will not have a resolution until the ones unwilling to negotiate, the ones that do not want peace - READ: iran, syria, islamic militants - ARE DEAD. and the ones remaining realize there is no sense in fighting and dying anymore since israel isn't going anywhere.

stevo, you've convinced me that, if you were to examine the "gray" details, the conviction you bring to your argument would vanish. You ignore the issues of control of water resources in the region, the walling off of Palestinian territory, the violation of Israel's own laws with regard to claims of pre-1967 private land owners in the Jordan Valley, and Israel's retention of the Jordan Valley. You ignore the disproprotionate numbers of detained Palestinians and Lebanese by the IDF. vs. detained Israelis by Hezbollah. Hamas, etc.

You ignore the circumstances of an Israeli response to an attack against IDF military personnel by Hezbollah that has resulted in the destruction of much of Lebanon's infrastructure, and transport assets, and the deaths of hundreds of Lebanese civilians, and the same Israeli response to attacks on IDF personnel. that triggered a response by Israel that eliminated air conditioning and clean water, due to an intended attack on civilian power generation in Gaza.

stevo, your arguments come right out of "The Corner" on the nationalreview.com website. I can't tell your declarations from those of Hannity or Michael Ledeen. Nothing sways you, nothing gives you pause to consider any measured argument, no matter the details contained within.

abaya · 07-20-2006, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo

this entire situation will not have a resolution until the ones unwilling to negotiate, the ones that do not want peace - READ: iran, syria, islamic militants - ARE DEAD. and the ones remaining realize there is no sense in fighting and dying anymore since israel isn't going anywhere.

Wow, you sound remarkably like... them. Or maybe the old phrase, "The only good Indian is a dead Indian" still rings true for you... just replace "Indian" with the words "Iranian citizens, Syrian citizens, and Islamic militants."

So, annihilate Iran, Syria, and all Islamic militants, eh? And terror will be gone forever, right?

Look, no one can win a war on "terror." Terrorism is not some specific ideology that people sign up for, like communism (even though our "war on communism" was just about as successful as this current war). To think that by annihilating one group of people, that you can thus get rid of this entire "plague" is very wrong-headed... and it reminds me of another era not too long ago. Ahem.

This whole approach lacks an understanding of WHY people become terrorists, of what motivates them. And it lacks an understanding that one cannot defeat this enemy by fighting them physically or trying to "annihilate" them (or their "host countries"), because they will continue to see those who die as "martyrs," and even more people will sign up. It's like a tar baby... the more you stick your fist into it, the more stubborn and resistant it will become... and it will grow stronger.

War is not the way to end this. I am not an expert on such things, but I'm fairly confident that this is not the kind of thing that can be defeated by such conventional "might makes right" means. We had the same frustrating experience in Vietnam... I don't see how this is going to be any different.

stevo · 07-20-2006, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaya

Wow, you sound remarkably like... them. Or maybe the old phrase, "The only good Indian is a dead Indian" still rings true for you... just replace "Indian" with the words "Iranian citizens, Syrian citizens, and Islamic militants."

So, annihilate Iran, Syria, and all Islamic militants, eh? And terror will be gone forever, right?

Look, no one can win a war on "terror." Terrorism is not some specific ideology that people sign up for, like communism (even though our "war on communism" was just about as successful as this current war). To think that by annihilating one group of people, that you can thus get rid of this entire "plague" is very wrong-headed... and it reminds me of another era not too long ago. Ahem.

This whole approach lacks an understanding of WHY people become terrorists, of what motivates them. And it lacks an understanding that one cannot defeat this enemy by fighting them physically or trying to "annihilate" them (or their "host countries"), because they will continue to see those who die as "martyrs," and even more people will sign up. It's like a tar baby... the more you stick your fist into it, the more stubborn and resistant it will become... and it will grow stronger.

War is not the way to end this. I am not an expert on such things, but I'm fairly confident that this is not the kind of thing that can be defeated by such conventional "might makes right" means. We had the same frustrating experience in Vietnam... I don't see how this is going to be any different.

War isn't the only way to end it. its one of 2 ways. Either israel fights the militants to the death or israelis pack up and move out of the middle east.

I know exactly why they become terrorists and what motivates them. pure hatred for jews and the destruction of israel. The moder islamic fundamentalist movement started in the late 1930's with the rise of nazism. The mufti of jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini and adolf hitler were allies. Anti-semetism in the middle east didn't move into full swing until 1940. Islamic terrorism is fueled by pure hatred. not desparation, not the result of victimization. hatred.

abaya · 07-20-2006, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo

War isn't the only way to end it. its one of 2 ways. Either israel fights the militants to the death or israelis pack up and move out of the middle east.

I know exactly why they become terrorists and what motivates them. pure hatred for jews and the destruction of israel.

So, tell me again, how are you different from them?

stevo · 07-20-2006, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaya

So, tell me again, how are you different from them?

I don't hate the jews. I don't want to see the destruction of israel.

abaya · 07-20-2006, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo

War isn't the only way to end it. its one of 2 ways. Either israel fights the militants to the death or israelis pack up and move out of the middle east.

I know exactly why they become terrorists and what motivates them. pure hatred for jews and the destruction of israel.

Okay, let me clarify. I meant that if you basically switch all the references around in your post, you will clearly reflect the other side's opinion... except that the ethnic group is different. Which, in my opinion, doesn't put you on much of a moral high horse in terms of making objective judgements on the best path to take here.

From the point of view of a Palestinian, using your post:

Quote:

War isn't the only way to end it. its one of 2 ways. Either palestine fights the israelis to the death or palestinians pack up and move out of the middle east.

I know exactly why they become terrorists and what motivates them. pure hatred for palestinians and the destruction of palestine.

Nirvana · 07-20-2006, 02:11 PM

Just so you know abaya, while I do see what point you are trying to make, you really don't know anything about the israeli people if you think they have pure hatred for the palestinian people and want the destruction of a future palestinian state.

while i clearly can't speak for every single person there, when i was there i heard a lot more desire to come to terms and make things better and a lot more support for a two state solution than "pure hatred for palestinians and the destruction of palestine." in fact, enough to probably shock you.

and I definetely agree with stevo that there are very large and powerful factions in the middle east that just want israel gone. take for example how syria is trying to stir things up. while being a "good neighbor" and letting lebanese civilians hide out during this whole situation (though who knows what syria's intentions might be, whether good or bad), the government itself organized an anti-israel march/demonstration with burning effigies and anti-semetic cartoons carried by the crowds.

Willravel · 07-20-2006, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nirvana

Just so you know abaya, while I do see what point you are trying to make, you really don't know anything about the israeli people if you think they have pure hatred for the palestinian people and want the destruction of a future palestinian state.

Just the ones with the guns or in the bulldozers, eh? Israeli people vote for politicians who commit acts of terror against the Palestinian people. Intenationally recognized human rights violations are being commited. And they don't just take up 14 out of over a hundred seats.

abaya · 07-20-2006, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nirvana

Just so you know abaya, while I do see what point you are trying to make, you really don't know anything about the israeli people if you think they have pure hatred for the palestinian people and want the destruction of a future palestinian state.

Well, that wasn't really what my point was. My point was that I don't see any valid moral high ground in stevo's post, and I was trying to demonstrate that, by turning the tables on his statements (which I found to be unhelpful in general... just as unhelpful as my "statements" were). My point was not to try and elicit understanding of the Israelis or their desires, but rather that the inanity of stevo's argument could be applied just as well to the inanity of the Palestinians' OR the Israelis' justifications for all this shit.

Meh, I take no sides here, that's my point. I find that people taking sides, especially from armchairs across the ocean, far from any kind of hurt or harm, is totally out of line. Maybe I'm out of line for saying that... many would think so. So be it.

07-17-2006, 08:13 PM	#161 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Moved to Politics where this thread belongs... __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

07-18-2006, 05:49 AM	#164 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	Now that its on the parinoia board, I'm done. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

07-18-2006, 05:56 AM	#166 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	I spoke with a young lady here at work who is a Lebanese Christian, she's distressed about the situation because her brother and grandmoter are currently stuck in Lebanon. The US Consulate is trying to evacuate US citizens to Cyprus. She explained to me that 1/2 of the city is Muslim and the other is Christian. The Christian side is less affected directly but mostly affected by the loss of services like electricity and food stores. She also stated that most of the income is tourism related so their economic income for the year is bad. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

07-18-2006, 06:35 AM	#168 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	you forget about the role of the israeli invasion of lebanon in creating and sustaining hezbollah.... but why consider history when ideology is so much more fun? why is it that this kind of support for israel entails an absolute refusal to see israli responsibility for anything? how does this help? it certainly is worthless historically and analytically--i would have thought that political positions rested on some kind of historical and/or analytic base... anyway this issue has come up explicitly in the other thread and so will refer folk to that rather than repeat here. apologies for the cross-cut. not quite sure how to do the integrrating to themes across threads dance. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

07-18-2006, 07:57 AM	#172 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Actively and passively killing civilians has the same result, no matter the intent. Pair that fact up with the fact that over 150 Lebanese people and around 24 Israeli people have died since this began, and the moral scale isn't as one sided. Israel was not trying to kill terrorists when they hit the airport. At best, they wer trying to destroy Lebanese infurstructure. Last edited by Willravel; 07-18-2006 at 07:59 AM..

07-18-2006, 03:44 AM	#163 (permalink)
Xazy People in masks cannot be trusted Location: NYC	On a side point that no one has mentioned. All this happened with a peace keeping armed force of 2000 troops from the UN in southern Lebannon.... So we had a UN resolution to tell Hezballah to disarm, we had troops there supposedly to help keep the peace, and still they were able to attack Israel.

07-18-2006, 12:38 PM	#177 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	an interesting media selection from NYTimes.com Turmoil in the Middle East: Fury without letup While someone out there will say that it's the NYTimes it's biased, I say at least watch the media, there's a section on Lebanon and one on Israel, and one on the diplomacy with respect to outside governments. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

07-18-2006, 03:07 PM	#182 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	You can toss around Resolution 1559 all you want, it doesn't change the fact that unless Hezbollah wants to disarm they will never be disarmed. The Lebanese army can't do it. The Israeli's can't do it. The UN can't do it. The fact that Hezbollah is part of a coalition government is not the fault of the rest of Lebannon. Lebanon is not to blame for this any more than Israel is to blame for this... think about it. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

07-18-2006, 11:35 PM	#183 (permalink)
DJ Happy Psycho	I hardly think Israel's in a position to demand that others comply with UN Security Council resolutions.

07-19-2006, 05:12 AM	#185 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Loser... read what I said again. Neither Lebanon nor Israel is to blame for Hezbollah. __________________________ The reason this is happening is because, Hezbollah was on notice. The were on the slippery slope to irrelevancy. Resolution 1559 and the ousting of Syria from Lebanon combined with the fact that Israel was backing off. The writing was on the wall. How to make yourself relevant? Start a war! While I would never expect them to do it, the perfect response from Israel would have been to do nothing. Take a non-confrontational approach. Defend the border but just suck up the casualties. The pain and destruction would have been a lot to bear BUT, the Public Relations battle would eventually be won. Then they would offer to work with the UN and the Lebanese Army to rid the world of the irrelevant Hezbollah. It would take longer and there would be lives lost but it could be more lasting peace. The current approach will work and it will work quickly and with a reduced loss of life in the Israeli side. But it won't solve anything. It will just bring back the status quo... in the meantime, in the face of an agressive Israel, Hezbollah is relevant once more. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

07-19-2006, 01:31 PM	#186 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	For the record, Israel and Lebanon are at war, they have been for over 50 years. Same goes for Iran, and Syria, probably Saudi Arabia too. Countries like Egypt and Jordan used to be at war with Israel; Israel then came in and kicked ass, life for Egypt and Jordan has been a million times better since making peace. Hell Egypt is the second largest recipient of American aid, and Jordan is a key ally in the region and for the war on terror. I don't know how you establish that the Lebanese people have no blame in electing Hezbollah to their government. Hezbollah has gained seats in every election since they've started having them in 92' ( I think thats the year), Hezbollah has 2 ministers in the government, and is supported by others: To me it seems like the situation with Hamas, the people of Lebanon and Palestine enabled these terrorists, Lebanon and Palestine are fully responsible as sovereign nations. At the same time Israel has FULL RIGHTS to do whatever they want as they see fit to defend themselves as a sovereign nation. As usually the peaceniks who are calling for peace and diplomacy are misguided, I don't know how it doesn't register with you: People like Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, Syria, don't want peace, they want Israel and all the evil zionist jews destroyed, they cannot be talked to rationally because they are not rational. I am really getting sick of Israel beating around the bush, they need to buck up and go into Lebanon and Syria, hopefully provoking Iran, and escalate this conflict so it can be ended once and for all. Again I refer you to the relationship(s) of Egypt and Jordan with Israel: Since Sadat made peace in the 70s shit has been alright, might not be peachy, but there haven't been problems with terrorism. Same goes for Jordan. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

07-19-2006, 01:34 PM	#187 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	I've never been called a peacenik before. I rather enjoy it.

07-20-2006, 05:40 AM	#189 (permalink)
Xazy People in masks cannot be trusted Location: NYC	You have to realize these terrorist organizations on purpose work out of populated areas. They hide from retaliation by living, breathing, hiding amongst ‘civilians.’ If Israel decides well we can not go after them because of civilians, they win and continue to have free rein to attack civilians with rockets. And If Israel does actually attack, and civilians are killed, the international community yells at Israel, for ‘disproportionate force.’ Of course this only leads to encourage the terrorists to organize, live, and attack within ‘human shields’ / populated areas. If I go and hold someone hostage, for money or something, and threaten to kill the person, and the hostage dies who is held responsible? I am it is considered murder. So why is it not the same for terrorists? I found a lot of these ideas and some other comments in some op/ed page i was reading, I wish I could find the article, but sadly I have been reading everything on Israel I can find all day, so it is somewhere lost in my history.

07-20-2006, 02:11 PM	#198 (permalink)
Nirvana Crazy	Just so you know abaya, while I do see what point you are trying to make, you really don't know anything about the israeli people if you think they have pure hatred for the palestinian people and want the destruction of a future palestinian state. while i clearly can't speak for every single person there, when i was there i heard a lot more desire to come to terms and make things better and a lot more support for a two state solution than "pure hatred for palestinians and the destruction of palestine." in fact, enough to probably shock you. and I definetely agree with stevo that there are very large and powerful factions in the middle east that just want israel gone. take for example how syria is trying to stir things up. while being a "good neighbor" and letting lebanese civilians hide out during this whole situation (though who knows what syria's intentions might be, whether good or bad), the government itself organized an anti-israel march/demonstration with burning effigies and anti-semetic cartoons carried by the crowds. Last edited by Nirvana; 07-20-2006 at 02:19 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost