Infinite_Loser

That's a rather cynical view you've got there.

You say Israel doesn't want peace? Then what do you call the numerous concessions which they have made over the past ten or so years? I suppose you've conveniently ignored how they have bent over backwards (Did you happen to miss how Israel forcibly removed it's own citizens from Gaza?) for many Arab countries while receiving an increase in violence for their efforts.

Now, if you would have said many Arab countries don't want peace with Israel, I would have been inclined to agree.

percy

No you missed my point. To continue to be dehumanized to the point of no return is a crime against humanity and should be addressed. And who are you and your supporters that feel we should give up every imaginable basic human right to satify your every whim.

How many gods are there in the world?

Infinite_Loser

They're not being dehumanized. Bombing infrastructure is the best possible recourse of action-- Especially when compared to using ground troops.

You are acting as if Israel is purposely targetting civilians. They are not. They're using the best possible choice which will result in the smallest number of civilian casualties.

percy

OK one more quick one before my boyfriend seals the deal with the baked lobster.(between you and he, he's a little distracted.)

So Ariel Sharon didnt want to deal with PM Abbas but said he will discuss peace with an elected Palestinian govt. He knew civil war or Hamas would win so his natural response would be,..."we aren't dealing with terrorists." when Hamas won. Easy one I'd say.

So you don't deal with terrorists, and they don'T get fuck all.

Got to go. Looking forward to some strong words from Canada's PM at the G8 summit regarding Israel killing 8 Canadian civilians.

Nirvana

now i heard reports of israel of targeting hezbolah stronholds in civilian populated areas. that i entirely diasgree with because that puts a large number of people in danger.

OzOz

Why should they not be hit? This shows a disregard for the civilian population by Hezbollah, not by Israel.

__________________
Maybe you should put some shorts on or something, if you wanna keep fighting evil today.

Nirvana

if they are to be hit, they need to be hit with a highly calculated strike that won't cause a lot of collateral damage. i don't know if there is a missile capable of that.i do agree with hezbollah having no regard for lebanon and its people. during a press conference the leader of hezbollah was asking something like "did you consider lebanon before the kidnappings" and he replied with something along the lines of "there are more important things at hand."

Infinite_Loser

That's the same thing I asked earlier.

Most countries accuse Israel of being reckless and having a low regard for civilian casualties, but why isn't anyone questioning Lebanon's-- Or even Hezbollah's-- Apparent lack of concern for citizens in their own countries.

OzOz

I seriously doubt that this is a realistic possibility in the current conflict. I doubt the Lebanese would have the capacity to do so, given that Hezbollah seems to effectively control southern Lebanon - and even if they did have the power to do so, do you really think they would? I don't see ANY group being rounded up quickly by the local authorities in the Middle East if one of their main promises is to attack Israel.

In all seriousness, what does "multilateral" have to do with anything at all? You want "multilateral", I'll give you a dodecagon. If you're responding to a real threat, then going it alone shouldn't have any impact whatsoever on whether your actions are just. Similarly, if you're carrying out a flagrantly illegal act of aggression with no justification, then having half the world supporting you with troops on the ground or in the air or at sea is not going to change the legality, or lack thereof, of your actions by one little bit.

As for only shooting when you're shot at, why should it work like that? The whole premise of your argument is that you already HAVE been shot at!

No, of course it's not the same thing. Why should it be the same thing? Any general who allows "all things to be equal" when they should be well and truly in his side's favour is grossly incompetent.

And just how, exactly, should they do that?

Dead innocent Israeli civilians, people also with no connections to Hezbollah, Fatah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad or any other such organisations, are also quite counterproductive.

__________________
Maybe you should put some shorts on or something, if you wanna keep fighting evil today.

Willravel

I consider the two linked. If one is able to bend their morality so as to allow them to kill inncent people for the 'greater good', then why bother with morals at all? Israel did purpously attack, and they knew they'd kill innocent civilians, so how is it so far fetched to say "Israel is purposely attacking civilians!"? Yes, of course they are targeting the infurstructure. They could have hit places like the runways at 3 AM, or vacant roads. They are trying to scare the Lebanese people. That's terrorism, btw.
Dualistic purpous: kill Japanese, and scare the ones who survive. If the Japanese (who had already lost) saw that we were able to harness the power of the sun to destroy them, they were more likely to surrender.

The same thing was true with the Nazi forces, and the good Germans. The allied forces wanted to create terror that would cause confusion. War is the art of murder, let there be no doubt of that.
If Isreal were at war with Lebanon, then I might be more understanding. Israel is at war with Hezbollah. While ther obviously is a history to the conflict, this specific strike was in response to two kidnapped soldiers. You make it sound like this is after years of Israeli pent up aggression they finally struck back. Not true. Israel fights back and even initiates all the time. This is just another attack by Israel.

It's that gesture that would rally support from places like Russia and Europe. Making war on Lebanon is just another horrible Middle Eastern tragety. Trying to show respect would be viewed as understanding and evolved. Of course Lebanon doesn't have the power to stop Hezbollah, as proven by the fact that Hezbollah still operates in Lebanon. If hey had the necessary power, Hezbollah would have been expelled years ago, and Israel and Lebanon might be enjoying a very benificial and hopeful friendship.
Multilateral has a lot to do with my last point. The rest of the world sees the Middle East as a place that's been at war for generations, and shows no sign of improvement. A sign of change would be inviting others to help solve the situation. Israel is as much of a threat to Lebanon as Lebanon is to Israel. The difference is that whre as the Lebanese government has *some* Hezbollah representation, Israel's government as a whole decided to attack Lebanon.
The hypothetical situation posed supposes a terrorist group from Canada has already struck. Bottom line: Hezbollah does not represent the populace of Lebanon, so they do not deserve to take the brunt of the reciprication for the kidnappings and attacks.
[QUOTE=OzOz]And just how, exactly, should they do that?
Step 1) stop bombing Lebanese that had nothing to do with the Hezbollah.
Step 2) stop bulldozing Palestinian homes
Well no shit, but no one is arguing that Hezbollah was right in attacking Israel or kidnapping soldiers. If you read my posts, I am very clear in condemning the acts of the Hezbollah. I speak on behalf of the civilains of Lebanon. You are agruing it is right for Israel to have shot bombs into Lebanon knowingly killing inncent civilians. I couldn't disagree more.

Ustwo

Well I am the Lorax, I speak for the trees

I think you might be over reaching your bounds here speaking for the civilians of Lebanon. In light of the attacks the 'government' of Lebanon says they MIGHT use the army in southern Lebanon to remove Hizbollah. They are getting bombed, people are dying and they might do something. Thats spiffy. Of course they are so weak they can't so its a moot point, odds are the army (70k) would split and we would have another civil war. Israel is attacking a terrorist nation with a veneer of respectibilty in the form of a powerless democratic government, but as usual the same suspects are on the side of the terrorists.

__________________
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Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Willravel

Alright, I was being a bit sarcastic, but I'm sure you get my point. It seems the interest of the populace of Lebanon isn't on everyone's minds. My sympathies are evenly divided, going to the civilians of Lebanon and Israel.
Israel is a terrorist nation, so I fail to see where this sense of moral high ground comes from. The difference, of course, is that the Lebanese government has almost no power. Israel, on the other hand, is quite powerful. If worse came to worse, I suspect that Israel could hold off Iran Syria and Egypt at once. I hope that never happens, mind you, but if it did Israel would be able to do a lot of damage. Israel even has nuclear capabilities.

Hezbollah needs to be stopped, but there are better ways than bombing civilian targets and getting nothing but collateral damage.

OzOz

Israel is at war with Lebanon. Israel is at war with virtually all countries in the immediate vicinity, with the sole exceptions of Egypt and Jordan. They are the only two countries it has fought over the last 60 years that have signed peace treaties with it. With the rest, it is in a state of suspended hostilities - although granted that hostilities with Lebanon have been not so suspended in the last few days. And yes, I can understand if you think this is being somewhat pedantic.

Such support, explicit or implicit (i.e. no use of a UNSC permanent member's veto) already exists, for without it, UN Security Council Resolution 1559 would have been impossible. From Wikipedia (United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1559):

Yet despite this support, demonstrably nothing has been done - and the background for this, also from the same page, is very instructive. The Lebanese government has made an official response to this resolution. In terms of disarming guerillas, one of the requirements of the resolution, their response was (also from the same Wikipedia page):

(This text is also found on the Lebanese Army's website here. Emphasis added by me.)

(Also, regarding the Shebaa Farms mentioned in the above quote, and to cut a long story short: This is a small area of about 12 square miles which ironically is the subject of a border dispute between Lebanon and Syria. Lebanon contends that it should have been included in the area that Israel withdrew from in 2000. However, the UN is satisfied that Israel completely withdrew from Lebanon at that time, as it does not regard the Shebaa Farms area as part of Lebanon, partly on the basis of official maps from Lebanese government agencies, including the army. See Shebaa_Farms for more information.)

willravel, before doing a bit of research for this post, I was inclined to agree with you that Lebanon doesn't have the power to stop Hezbollah - in fact, I'd still probably agree with you on this point. However, preserving Hezbollah in Lebanon is official Lebanese government policy, as shown by their own statement in response to UNSC Resolution 1559. They have no intention of even asking them politely to put down their toys and behave. That, to me, shows the whole situation in a completely different light.

Oh? We've already established that they form part of the government of Lebanon. This fact alone stretches your claim a little bit thin. Also, the Lebanese government refuses to even ask Hezbollah to leave, but supports them as a "Lebanese strategic interest" - so they have the full support of those who do represent the populace of Lebanon.

This I am pleased to acknowledge, now that you have corrected me. However, I also note that the Lebanese government does not share your condemnation.

I am arguing nothing of the sort. What I am arguing is that it is right for Israel to go after Hezbollah, following everyone else's obvious failure and/or outright refusal to do so, even though innocent civilian casualties will be inflicted. I also note that it is the modus operandi of virtually all such terror groups to hide themselves in and surround themselves with the local population, so that civilian casualties cannot be avoided in hunting such groups down - and said casualties are then held up as evidence of "atrocities". What are the Israelis supposed to do - ask Hezbollah to obligingly line up here, and the rest of the population to line up over there, so that the Israelis can just shoot the "bad guys"?

__________________
Maybe you should put some shorts on or something, if you wanna keep fighting evil today.

Xazy

The hard part, of these things that most do not realize is that Abbas, Arafat, are all terrorists. That their organization was respobsible at the time of doing terrorist attacks. That none of them ever disarmed the terrorist groups. That there were documents proving that arafat while being PM, gave money to the terrorist groups for rockets... But again, they disengaged over a year ago, and what has the palestenians done besides attack, and elect a terorist organization that continues to act as a terrorist organization as their government...

That is why they are in civilian neighborhoods. That is why that when the terrorists travel they take their kids with them as well.. operation human shield. But like infinite, said blame the terrorists. They hit you hide behind a baby, and now everyone cries look out he is trying to hit a kid. Well maybe that works a few times, but at some time the parents of the kid have to say enough you can not hide behind us.. or someone has to try to hit him anyways.

exactly, you have no choice...

Really, they have not been in Lebanon for a few years.. they have been out of palestine for a year now. And they continue to attack attack attack... Interesing they are the terrorists. I guess Israelies are the ones doing rocket attacks daily, and Israelies are blowing up buses in resturaunts.. Oh no wait sorry that is wrong it is the other way around...

What way would work 'better.' What has worked with these terrorists, besides giving them all that they want.. Oh wait they want Israel not to exist, is that your solution?

highthief

That'll happen when pigs fly. Israel could nuke Vancouver, and Harper wouldn't say a thing against them.

__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.

abaya

I don't see the point of posting much in this thread anymore, but I'll post one more thing related to this point.

Yes, Hezbollah is part of the government of Lebanon. But note a few things: they are not a majority in the government (by far), and those who elected them are not a majority of the populace. The mostly Shia voters who support Hezbollah make up approx. 30% (at most) of the country's population; Hezbollah is very unpopular with the Sunni and Maronite Christian rest of the population.

However, the flipside of this is that while Hezbollah is supported by only a minority in Lebanon, that minority is still significant to the overall make-up of Lebanon. In other words, for the 70% to turn on the 30% and basically isolate their interests, would incite another civil war. The Shia would certainly fight (again) against the other groups to defend their interests (Hezbollah); and so in fact, if Lebanon is expected to "get rid" of Hezbollah (indeed, a self-amputation), they will only bring on themselves a civil war.

So yes, nations have a right to defend themselves, but do they have a responsibility to disarm a terrorist group IF that action would result in a civil war? (especially after they've already been through one for 15 years, just 15 years ago?) You might say yes... but try to understand the reluctance of the Lebanese to split themselves down the middle again.

Just wondering about your thoughts on this.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Xazy

Well, it is not an easy decision, and Israel allowed Lebanon to work on that solution, until Hezbollah assaulted and kidnapped some soldiers. At which point Lebanon got put in to a new catagory, not just the usual assaults, but a new escalation. And Israel at that point has no choice but to defends its citizens..

So sadly, yes Hezbollah made a decision that screwed things up for the rest of the country. Because at some point a nation has to draw a line and say that we can no longer tolerate your country attacking ours. And that literally is what it is.

stevo

I just want to point out that you, willravel, are very outspoken about civillian deaths, but you completely ignore the fact that when these 2 soldiers were captured, 8 others were killed. You didn't even mention it. In addition, the kidnapping of 2 soldiers isn't what this is *supposed* to be about. Have you ever heard the term "the straw that broke the camel's back" There were years and years of rockets fired into israel on a daily basis. Suicide bombings and shootings, more kidnappings. Israel has been playing the restraint game for 6 years and look where its got them. They've made unilatteral concessions that end up resulting in more rocket fire into israel and kidnapping of soldiers. Its time something more is done. A harsh enemy requires a harsh response.

You're anti-war stance has appeared to morph into an anti-israeli stance. Your abhoration of civillian deaths blinds you to the full nature of war. You fail to see the difference between a terrorist organization, Hezbollah - basically an arm of Iranian revolutionary guard, a proxy for iranian anti-semetic agenda. You think israel bombs bridges and airports to terrorize civillians, when that is not what this is about. Airports and bridges must be bomed to cut off the supply line to Hezbollah from iran and syria. Did you know before israel dropped one bomb in lebanon the dropped millions of leaflets letting the civillians know to take shelter? Do you know the lenths the IDF goes to limit civillian casualties?

A simplistic approach such as yours where you define israels actions as terrorism agianst the lebonese people and their ultimate goal of "just destroying Lebanon because they hate it" is doing a disservice to the truth of the matter.

Now back to reading the last page and a half of posts.

Plainly false. Israel has a self-sustaining economy. They have productive agriculture, manufacturing, service, and hi-tech sectors. They don't need war to survive.

__________________
"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

Ustwo

Anyone recall the US's response when the Mexcians couldn't control their territory and Mexican raiders attacked a US city?

What do you think would happen today if Mexico killed and captured US border guards and started to launch rockets into US towns now and then?

I'd use Canada as an example but we know how ridiculous that thought would be

Now why is it ok for the US to defend itself and not ok for Israel? I think Israel has shown amazing restraint the last 10 years, pointless but amazing. They get no credit, get condemned every time they kill a terrorist, but get very little sympathy every time a party, night club, or pizza place is blown to hell.

I wish I could chalk up the anti-Israeli sentiments on basic anti-Semitisim. Thats something thats at least easy to understand as a motive, and for many in Europe I think that is a contributing factor, but I don't think thats the cause. Israel is the only real democracy in the region, with womens rights, gay rights, and freedom of religion yet they are the demon to the left. I can think of a few reasons why but honestly I don't get it. I really think the socialists just want Israel destroyed so they don't have to worry about it anymore.

__________________
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Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Willravel

I don't know what Israel should have done in response to this latest assault, but I know what they should not have done. Any organization, nation or entity that doesn't place value on innocent life is on my shit list. It's really that simple. Hezbollah is on my shit list. Israel is on my shit list. Several Palestinian organizations including Hamas are on my shit list. I am well aware of the 'nature of war', but that sure as hell doesn't mean that I woulnd't do anything to end war (or, removing the double negative, I would do anything to end war). I don't like the idea of 'accepting' that war is simply a part of life and allowing it to continue. That's simply not good enough, and the world isn't going to get any better unless we change our way of thinking. My anti-war stance has always included Israel, Palestine, Syria, Iran, Iraq, and slews of others, none the least of which is my own country. If you want to call be anti-Israeli, I can't stop you, but you'll have to call me anti-pretty much everyone, too. The problem is that when threads like this one pop up, they are very much one sided against the enemies of Israel. Israel is not a saint. They do wrong. They make mistakes like everyone else. They get involved in military posturing. They hurt people who don't deserve to be hurt (case in point this thread). Yes, Israel sent leaflets that said something like "stay away from Hezbollah locations", but how many Lebanese know where those places are? What does that really mean besides, "Run and hit, we're going to destroy your home"? Also, Israeli aircraft fired missiles at one of Hezbollah's radio stations, but hit a nearby apartment building instead. Oops! Casualties of war, I guess. It's not simplistic to show compassion for the people in that apartment, or people at an airport, or people on bridges. It's reasonable to feel sympathy for innocent people who are in danger, being injured, or killed. I DO hope that the Israeli soldiers are allowed to go free. They never should have been kidnapped, and Hezbollah should be destroyed. Doesn't that kinda go without saying, though?

I suspect that Hezbollah was simply expecting a prisoner exchange, a la the January 29, 2004 prisoner exchange overseen by Germany. Stupid move.

Xazy

Well then, let us just say simple, you are any any violence. I agree. But the world does not live that life, so we have to live in reality and respond to that.

Sadly Hezbollah did not agree to it.

As far as the prisoner trade goes... And you forget the 8 soldiers killed, and the fact that they demand hundreds of people in return for 2. Sorry but the straw that broke the camels back, sadly the camel was standing over some kids when it fell. And same here, sadly in war the innocents are hurt, and it saddens me, but it is a fact of life. But Hezbollah has the blame, they kept going and going and going until they crossed the line.

Willravel

Well, I am very against needless violence. If soldiers have to die, then soldiers have to die. They choose their vocation and hopefully understand the risks involved. The same thing is true with violent extreemists. They know that they could die, but they do waht they do anyway. It's sad that anyone has to die, but these people do it as a livelyhood. Civilians going to airports, walking by radio stations, or even simply living in their apartment are not soldiers or violent extreemists. They did not make the decision to kill people or to put their lives in danger. They don't deserve to die, and shouldn't simply be dismissed as "collateral damage" or "casualties of war". Their deaths should be avoided. They shouldn't be targeted. BTW, Israel might be declairing war on Lebanon, but I doubt it's a real war between two soverign nations. Israel want's Lebanon to comply with 1559 and all. I agree that Lebanon *should* be doing everything in their power to remove terrorist groups, and they clearly aren't. The UN should take action (since it was their resolution). Israel's attacks were not the proper response. All morality aside, do they really want to continue to alienate Lebanese citizens and piss off the rest of the world?
Like I said:
Hezbollah was unbelievably stupid to do what they've done, not just recently but overall. If they really wanted to destroy Israel as a state, they'd fake an attack on the US and frame Israeli intelligence. What they are doing now is emotionally induced attacks with very little real strategy. They suffer from ther same peoblems as most other terrorist groups: the leadership are simply the most extreeme of their viwpoint. They do not choose leadedrs based on military ability or strategy. That's why, a lot of the time, terrorists lose.

highthief

1) I don't see Washington bombing the Mexico City Airport if, say, Guadalaharan seperatists were to fire into the US. I see the US going after the offending parties directly rather than destroying all of Mexico's infrastructure.

2) No idea what this means. Completely off the rails with that comment.

__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.

JustJess

Wow. Getting through these 4 pages was a real chore. Wow.

Some points that haven't been brought up yet (that I noticed):

1. The reason that the US and most of Western Europe are always backing Israel whether they are right or wrong is... because this is all our faults. WE made Israel, now we're responsible for it. The Jews haven't had a state in Jerusalem in 1000 years. Until 90 years ago, when we just put them there. No wonder the Palestinians are so pissed - they've had a way of life for 1000 years and they're supposed to just sit back while some other country says "here, give them your land and play nice"???

2. The analogies around here are just killing me. BUT... here's one more. Ever hear about the school bully? You know, the one that beats every one else up because he's really insecure? That's Israel. They're so finely wired at this point that it takes something little to set them off now. Not that I agree, but I can see where it began...

3. All this bullshit about how it's Lebanon's fault that they have Hezbollah in their country and government... wow. Really? Look, Lebanon - in case you missed the other posts - is recently out of a crazy fucking civil war. They are just getting their shit together, and the only way to stay together is to not piss off the other factions of your country. And Hezbollah... they're not exactly pushovers. How'd they get into power? Oh, I don't know... how did we end up with a idiotic danger to the world as President in the US? I know *I* didn't vote for him... but I can't control who did. There are more parallels between Bush and Hezbollah than I'm completely comfortable with. He's attacking other countries without provocation. He's only sort of been voted in. A huge portion of the country wants him gone. He's getting US citizens killed. Well... hm. Interesting.

4. Look, I have Jewish family. So be in no doubt as to my sympathies. However... Israel IS a terrorist state. Do they have cause? Are they entirely nuts? Yes, and no. But as it's been stated... two wrongs don't make a right. Boohoo, they've made concessions, big whoop. I'm not impressed. They shouldn't be there at all anymore, but that's a moot point now. Frankly, I'm a fan of luring all the armies - Israeli, Palestinians, Hamas, Hezbollah, blah blah... luring them out to the middle of the desert and then blowing them up. Because they are ruining the lives of countless civilians for no good reason.

In reality... what I think should happen is this: lots of sniper troops sent in to kill off all the leaders of the various factions until the people in power end up being peaceable people who actually care about their citizens. That's it.

__________________
My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.

Ustwo

Just Jess - Lebanon doesn't just have terrorists in its government they CONTROL southern Lebanon. The official Lebanese government has no power in half of the country. This is basically a terrorist state supplied by Syria and Iran whos goal is the eventual destruction of Israel. If you want them to suck down missile and suicide attacks like they mean nothing, thats great, I wouldn't stand for it myself and its about time Israel did what they should have done years ago.

I have to wonder, does it give anyone pause to think they are supporting the side that condones and glorifies children turning themselves into human bombs and has the support of the likes of Iran, Syria, and Osama?

Israel may not be spotless, but the 'bad guys' should be pretty easy to spot here.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Willravel

Does it give anyone pause that when one explains that Israel is ALSO wrong, that you are basically labaled a terrorist sympathzer? If two bads are fighting one another, there is nothing wrong with saying that both sides are bad. So, Ustwo, who here is supporting the Hezbollah, Iran, Syrian, or the al Qaeda?

Xazy

Outside of allowing the terrorist organizations to continue to attack them, what is the "proper" response? Again, they send hundreds of rockets in to the nation, they have waited over a year, and the terrorists organizations not only have become part of the government, they have re-armed. They attack military bases in Isreal, not anywhere on their land, and kidnap soldiers on top of that.

So what is the response? Did the UN do anything during all this time? Has any nation done anything, besides wag their finger and go bad boy bad boy? Nope, it is all right to condemn Israel now, but you do not hear half of the condemnation from these same nations after every terrorist attack. We do not hear here about 1/2 the attacks that get stopped, of the daily rocket attacks. You know why, it is not news, it is acceptable.

Well sorry, it is not acceptable any longer.

Infinite_Loser

No one asked them to change their way of life. They only need to co-exist peacefully with the Jews, something they seem totally unwilling and incapable of doing.

Israel doesn't go arbitrarily attacking other countries because it can nor does it attack another country simply because it hates one group of people. Anyway, you say that something to little can tick them off?

Why don't we continue to shell the city in which you live or start killing the people who live their arbitrarily. I guarantee you that you wouldn't stand for it very long. The fact that Hezbollah kidnapped two Israeli soldiers as well as killed eight civilians is basically "The straw that broke the camel's back".

It's not the same thing. Bush hasn't shown outright hatred towards another country and hasn't pledged the total destruction of any particular nation. Hezbollah, Hamas and all of those radical groups have. See the difference?

It doesn't matter whether or not Lebanon is coming out of civil war. If they can't control factions inside of their own territory attacking another country, then they have to understand that the country which is constantly being attacked-- In this case, Israel-- Will do something about it. It's as simple as that.

Willravel

What is the response? I'm not 100% sure. I'm not a military tactician, after all. I'm some guy in the US trying to figure out what the hell is going on in the world. What I do know is that civilians are dea, and I'm not happy about it. That's where I started in all this. From there I figured in the international opinion about what's going on, namely that people think Israel's response was far too large and barbaric. Why would the world say that? Wel, it has a lot to do with the fact that the Lenabese who died had no ties to the terrrorist organization that was supposed to be the target. It's like being bittin by a spider in your back yard, and then burning your backyard to the ground to prevent it from happening again (yes, another analogy).

Again, people seem to have this absurd notion that because I condemn Israel's attacks, that I somehow accept the attacks of the Hezbollah or any other radical Arabs. Well, that's a silly notion. Anyone else who thinks that I am somehow pro-Hezbollah and such should understand that I am without question, completly and totally against terrorism in all it's forms, ESPECIALLY when it is based on racism. Hezbollah should be disbanded, and it's members brought to justice by the courts of their victims. Those in Syria and Iran should also be brought to justice. You'd think that would go wiothout saying, but I'm saying it anyway.

So let's review:
-Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, and other radical terrorists = bad, and should be brought to justice by courts
-Israel = wrong, should stop bombing the living crap out of civilians that mean Israel no harm

AngelicVampire

Didn't the Jewish people already own a fairly substantial piece of that area that they had purchased from the indigenous people?

From what I have seen Israel has made many attempts to be peaceful since 194x when they were established (remember Syria only became Syria 2 years earlier). The 6 day war ended pretty well for egypt when they were willing to negotiate. Israel seem to have hit that final straw, and frankly I can't blame them, heck myself and a few friends were tempted to put down a bet that Israel will be the second country to fire a nuke in anger.

abaya

What IS the point of this thread. I fail to see it. And yet I go on posting.

JustJess, excellent points, especially #3. That was where I was trying to go, with my post before this one.

Ustwo, I have not yet seen your answers to my questions from a few days ago, about you conflating the Lebanese with the Palestinians, and in fact the Lebanese with Hezbollah. You seem to think (from what you have written, this is all I can tell) that everyone who lives in the Middle East (outside of Israel) is an extremist Muslim who wants to be a terrorist, and they raise their children that way.

Please, I know you have the intelligence to recognize that you are making a dangerously broad generalization in the heat of this argument... please tell me that you recognize that. You simply cannot make such generalizations, because they are squarely wrong.

I don't think ANYONE here is supporting Hezbollah. There are just some of us who choose ALSO not to support Israel's current level of action. A plague o' both their houses, yes... but not on Lebanese OR Israeli civilians. Sigh.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Nirvana

ye they did. i beleive there was a substantial jewish population in Palestine (the name given to the region by the Romans and then by the british when discussing basically how to carve it all up) before the 1900's and it grew steadyly throughtout the early to mid 1900s with a mass exodus after world war 2. some people didn't like this growth. that is why the Mufti of Jerusalem workeed with hitler to create an arab SS during World War 2.

Please guys no more analogies. they really don't add anything to discussion. though i have to admit, you guys are pretty clever with the ones you came up with.

I forgot the names of the two posters who had family in lebanon but i was wondering if you guys heard any news. how are they? we have a few family friends who have contacted their family back in lebanon and they have been having a hard time reaching them.

I forgot the names of the two posters who had family in lebanon but i was wondering if you guys heard any news. how are they? we have a few family friends who have contacted their family back in lebanon and they have been having a hard time reaching them.

billege

I have to agree with the comparison you're drawing here. It's amazing how much double talk and compramised morals get into play when people fall over themselves to condemn Israel.

They're the only state playing the arab's dirty game by the same rules. For every muslim "religion of peace TM" bombing, there's 100,000 rioting muslims...or maybe that was 1,000,000 muslims not voicing opposition to wanton violence in thier religion's name. Yet, if Israel kills back...whaoh boy...out comes the condemnation.

They're stuck in a religious war over there. We're in it also, but haven't come to realize that particular fact yet.

There is an amazing set of contraditictions in play with the whole middle east mess or "MEM." If you're Muslim, it's okay to set fire to cities in reaction to drawings of your idol...but get pissy after years of rocket attacks, murders, and now kidnappings, and you're STILL not justified in your actions.

Amazing.

__________________
I can sum up the clash of religion in one sentence:
"My Invisible Friend is better than your Invisible Friend."

Carno

Ummm, what the fuck happened to the mods?

I could have sworn I was in General Discussion, but this is clearly a political thread.

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http://how-to-spell-ridiculous.com/

Willravel

Ah, prime example of what I was talking about. "If people think that Israel is ever wrong, then they obviously support the Arab extreemists." Somehow because we are able to understand that Israel isn't perfect, we are somehow admitting that the attacks on Israel are okay. Such tremendous black and white thinking must lead to a very simple and blissful political existence.

I must ask: can Israel do wrong? Is Israel holy and above our understanding? Are we even worthy of judging them?

Ustwo

Sometimes war is in fact called for. Hizboolah should be dibanded, thats great will, so how will that be done? Should the UN pass another resolution, well I take that back the UN almost never condems islamic terrorism in specific terms. Should Lebanon move its army in? Oh wait it can't because they are too weak and would fight another civil war. Should we expect Syria and Iran to see the wisdom of accepting Israel? (pause for laughter)

So Will you can complain all you want, but there is no solution besides war and in war civilians will die, they always have and always will. The breaking point has been reached.

The ONLY reason anyone is talking about action now is because Israel is bombing the shit out of them. NOW the UN thinks maybe they should have a peacekeeping (ha!) force there, now Lebanon thinks maybe Hizbollah shouldn't have free run in the south.

Ironicly most lasting peace in the world is achieved by war not words. I can think of no people who gained freedom from an oppresive power without war involved, and innocent blood being split.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

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Willravel

So because neither you nor I (laymen in the art of war) can think of a solution, there is none? If Ustwo and Willravel can't think of a plan to remove or somehow do harm to Hezbollah, none exists and we should move on to plan B: civilian target practice. Sorry, I don't buy it.

And Canada disproves your war = peace argument. Canada gained peaceful independence and has been very peaceful since. I suspect peace happens to follow war because socities lose taste for war after a point.

billege

That must be a big step down from your horse. I'll get off mine if you'll get off yours...

Israel isn't perfect, of course. They put up with an incredible amount of violence from terrorists, and still can't be seen as justified when they react. Yet, I read page after page after page of apologists for terroists on the arab "side." I read how it's understandable this group shot up Israel for "insert wrong done do them here," over and over again. Isreal says "enough is enough," and it's still about how wrong Israel is.

If my descion of what I think is right and wrong earns me your insults about my "simplistic" view of black and white politics, than so be it. Your tone is deliberately sarcastic and condescending. Way to raise the level of discussion in a rapidly disentegrating thread.

__________________
I can sum up the clash of religion in one sentence:
"My Invisible Friend is better than your Invisible Friend."

Willravel

Well you are still calling me an apologist for terrorists, so you still aren't seeing my words. If I want Hezbollah dismantled and brought to justice, then how am I an apologist? If I was an apoligst, then why did I say "Damn them" about the Hezbollah in post #67? Why did I say, "Hezbollah deserves to be brought to justice for what they've done, not just now, but over the past 20 years. They are by definition a terrorist group. They are trying to declair war on Israel" in post #80? Why did I say, "Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, and other radical terrorists = bad, and should be brought to justice by courts" in post #149? Is that apologism, or is that condemnation? I'd say it's condemnation, but if you think it's apologism, then let me make this clear: I have never condoned the terrorist acts of the Hezbollah organization. It is a horrible, racist group that only exists to destroy a group of people, which is wrong. They have commited unspeakable acts over the past 20 years. If Hezbollah was gone tomorrow, I would celebrate.

One can condemn both sides of a conflict without choosing either side, right? Can't I say, "Hezbollah has been wrong for 20 years, AND Israel is wrong for targeting civilian targets"? Or does that mean that I am an apologist?

As for the insult thing: prove me wrong. I was insulted when you said:
...but instead of crying foul, I figured that I could simply make you back up your claims. So am I an apologist for the Hezbollah? Or am I sympathetic towards the Lebanese citizens who had nothing to do with the kidnappings and attacks on Israel?

Update: This is a horrible situation, and my thoughts are still with those innocents, Israeli and Lebanese, who are in danger.

billege

Check this out: You gotta love the BBC for facts:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5180202.stm


willravel: I didn't address you directly in any of my comments. I don't know what you are, nor am I qualified to say so. I don't intened to comment on you directly either.
What I mean by that is, I'm not trying nor wanting to get in a one-on-one arguement.

__________________
I can sum up the clash of religion in one sentence:
"My Invisible Friend is better than your Invisible Friend."