moonstrucksoul

my whole life, i have lived in the void of not knowing. I have never heard from God in any fashion that I have recognized. But now more than ever I need faith. Faith that everything will work out. Faith that what I feel is right. Faith that everything is OK.
A few months ago I slipped back into a depression, alot like the one I was in over a year ago. maybe worse. when I am depressed, I do things, like forget to show my wife how much I love her and say things I don't mean. All of these things have caught up with me. Now after her struggling to help me out this for a while she has given up hope that I will come out of it and that I can stay out of it. Why does it take the worst possible thing to make me want to change the way I feel about my life?
She did this to me a little over a year ago, and things were going great. but then she broke my trust, and it has been going down hill ever since. I forgave her, but it seems that once you start falling, you forget WHY you jumped out of the airplane. It's hard for me to trust in the fact that this isn't going to turn out like it did last time. I need the faith that no matter what, whether she leaves me or not, that everything will be ok.


So, where do you draw your faith from?

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CSflim

That certainly sounds like quite a severe depression. Are you seeing somebody professionally about it? If not, I would strongly reccommend it.

Things seem bleak to you right now. But when people are depressed, it is very hard to see outside the depression. It is even hard to remember times when you were not depressed; as if you were looking at the world through depression-tinted lenses. But there IS a way out, and you CAN get help.

I know I may not have answered your question: truth be told I don't have an answer for it, but I do know that things CAN change, even if you cannot see that now.

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stonegrody

I get my faith from everything around me. I'm not a religious person nor do I categorize myself into any one denomination. I see the way everything works and it makes me believe that there is a power in our universe that is much greater than anything we can imagine. Something that brings a balance to all things. Anything from the way the tides work to the way our own bodies are designed. Everything just works. No human could come up with such brilliance. If something doesn't work, it evolves until it does. For good there is bad. For up there is down. I don't know what this force is or if we will ever know. I just know that it is there.

I have struggled with depression since I was a child to this very day. For me, it is not something that happened or something that went wrong, it is just overwhelming sadness that I cannot get over for days to weeks at a time. I know there are drugs I could take to help me with this but I would rather deal with it on my own. I know that for every down, there's an up. Even if that up is simply not being down anymore. There will be balance. I have to believe that. Otherwise, what is this all for? I work with what I have and try to make the best of it. I have faith that I will find the answers to the questions that linger in my head when I die. If there is absolute nothingness, that will be my answer. Will I be aware of it? Who knows. Will we move on to something else after this life is over? We will find out. Will the way we lived in this world matter in the next? We'll see. So many questions, so many possibilities. I'm excited to find out. But I will live this life to the fullest for as long as this body will sustain me.

Look at the big picture. Could this all be a fluke? A random sequence of coincidences? If it is, how lucky are we to be alive and conscious?

Very.

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Halx

I don't have faith. Faith is the belief in things that cannot be proven. It's simply not enough for me to believe in something. I take chances and I tempt the odds, but never do think that I am more or less likely to succeed because of the interaction of some otherworldly being.

Contrary to what is assumed by people who DO have faith, this is not a depressing way to live. In fact, I feel more genuine and guided knowing that I do not take anything around me for granted. I look at things and I see their scientific functions and I appreciate everything. Sometimes I look at religious people and, aside from feeling mild amusement, I see the science that makes them work the way they do. Quite honestly, I'm proud that I don't have to cheat myself through a shortcut towards understanding things.

Faith is used to explain things that you don't understand through science. Faith is used to give you an answer when you can't bear to not know. Faith is like a teddy bear. Faith stops you from asking questions. Faith pacifies you and blinds you.

I'm comfortable not knowing things. It gives me drive to discover real answers. Answer that I can experience. Answers that I can repeat. I only trust consistency.

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wilbjammin

Faith in myself... knowing that everything going on around me can be in utter disarray or is completely absurd can't crush my will - I won't let it. If you feel like you need something that you don't have, you'll always be at a loss. When you realize that you don't need God, or anything, and that when you die that everything keeps going on without you makes you feel small, but, at the same time, it puts things in perspective. Living in spite of not knowing is the height of absurdity... but just think if you knew for sure. Would you want to know why you existed? Would that actually give you meaning?

It is just as absurd to know why you exist as to not know why. And because of this, we can certainly live with passion in rebellion to our paradoxical existence. We are built to live, and I have yet to find a single reason to give up on living even in this world of absurdity.

Now, to address your situation more directly, it sounds like you need something of your own to hold onto. If you don't feel like you have much of a say or a strong hold on your own life, you will be searching for things outside of you. None of those things can make up for that sense of ownership and responsibility for one's own existence.

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stonegrody

I agree with alot of the things you said, Hal. But even science has it's limits. It can only answer questions up to a certain point. I am a strong believer in seeing is believing. I am also comfortable in not knowing the answers to questions and the possibility of not ever knowing. I suppose in my case it's more hope than faith. If faith is belief, I can't honestly say I believe 100%. I do have doubt in what I do not know. But I do hope that there is more. I hope there is a greater power. Keep in mind that I am not talking about "God" or a supreme being of some sort. Not that it's not possible, it just doesn't seem like what it is. I love science and love to learn about the ways things work. But there are still some huge unknowns that are the core of many questions. I guess it's my curiosity that leads me to hope.

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ShaniFaye

since the question was where do I get my faith from....

I get it from God..I always have. I am not one of those people that has to see to believe...Im not putting down anyone that does....just as the concept of how I can believe the way I do baffles non believers, it confuses me to no end how someone could NOT. I have had hard times in my life, everybody does...and I can 100% say that the faith that I have has pulled me thru everytime. No matter what anyone says, I've heard from god many many times in my life...I have NO faith in organized religion, but I dont feel I need that to still have faith in God.

Faith has gotten me thru the few bouts of depression I've had, its given me the strength to know that there IS indeed a reason to wake up the next day...It gives me the rationale to know that although things may not be going the way that I want them...that, to me, it means there is something better waiting for me if I just be patient.

Maybe its just because I've always had it that its easier for me....Sure I have doubts, sure I question things, sure I yell at God for the way things are going..but to me having faith is the abilitity to yell at the almighty and get away with it because he truly knows my thought processes. Its comforting to me to know that although NO ONE IN THE WORLD may understand where Im at or how I feel...God does.

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Halx

I look at all the animals, insects, plants and fungi all around me and I realize how silly the thought of a higher being is. These are mindless organisms performing their tasks to ensure ONE THING.. the survival of their species. They don't have religion. They don't show faith to anything. All they live for is the continuation of their kind.

And here we are... claiming that humility is a virtue while we also believe we are any different than these species. We have heaven to look for because we live our lives for God, but everything else around us pays it no attention.. they continue to be animals and plants.

Faith, for all of it's demands of purity, is full of contradiction.

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stonegrody

Whether or not there really is anything more, the bottom line is that no one really knows. I don't think that it will make a difference in the end. If we die and that's it, well, that's it. The luxury we have as humans is the ability to think about it. If I were a gazelle in the plains of Africa, I wouldn't be thinking about the possiblity of a greater being. I'd be watching out for lions and trying to eat enough grass to last me another day.

I don't believe in one thing but I do hope for more. If I am wrong and there is a God, it will not matter if I believed or not. It did not change my existence. Just like the animals. They don't have to believe in order to exist. Just like us. We have the ability to think or not to think. It's just a choice we make. In the end, we will just have to face what really is whether it is something or nothing.

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Halx

stonegrody, that would all be well and fine if not for the fact that religion kills millions of people every day and it's influence dictates that I can't do SO MANY THINGS. If people didn't feel like they had God and eternal judgement over their shoulders, I couldn't tell you how much more personal freedom we'd have.

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ShaniFaye

I just have to comment on that Halx...I totally agree with that....which is one reason I have no faith in organized religion. I do not live under the notion that my faith in god limits me. There is right and wrong no matter whether you believe in god or not...You as a non believer dont believe in murder any more than I d0 (at least I dont think you do). Organized religion dictates way too many things, just as you said, it it is made up of people who continually "change the rules" hence so many different "denominations" in the christian faith. I mean does God really care if a woman cuts her hair? In my opinion NO, my faith in god guides me to be the best person I can be and to be true to myself and to know that its ok to put myself first sometimes.

I do NOT believe in god because of "eternal judgement" I believe in God because its what feels right to ME and having that higher power in my life is a comfort. But I have never ever ever felt limited in my personal freedom.

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Halx

So, faith is your teddy bear.

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ShaniFaye

In a sense, but not in your definition, it does not stop me from asking questions, and it does not blind me. I ask questions all the time...as my previous post stated, I am the kind of person that questions EVERYTHING...EXCEPT whether there is a god or not. Just because I choose to believe there IS doesnt mean I dont question things. In the sense that a teddy bear can be a comfort then yes it is my teddy bear.

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Halx

I hate to be cynical, sounding like I am trying to somehow force you to change your mind, but it sounds to me like there is more than one way to accomplish what you use faith in god to help you do. Aside from that, the definition of god has evolved over the milleniums. Your concept of him does not even exist in many parts of today's world. How can all that be? It's is such a variable that is different for everyone.

Is the explanation simply that he makes himself different for everyone's perception? If so, why? Does he mean for people to hurt eachother in his name? How can everyone else have it wrong except you?

All these questions just keep coming when it comes to faith... and they won't ever stop.

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ShaniFaye

You dont sound cynical...you just have different thought processes than I do, you're not trying to change my mind...you're just stating how yours works. I never said there werent other ways, I just stated which way I choose to use. Everybody uses what works for them to "get them thru" your way might be right, mine might be right, who knows? In the end its what works to give you the peace in your life that you need. Does he make himself different? Probably not, its about OUR perceptions. The baptist say Im gonna go to hell because I smoke, drink, enjoy porn and same sex encounters....I dont believe that. I look at it this way. 5 people can meet me....all 5 people are gonna have a different perception of how I am...does that mean any of them see me the way I actually am? a few might...but their perception of it is still going to be different.

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Halx

I'm at least hoping people ask these same questions that I ask. I believe that their answers... or lack of asnwers... will help them to be more honest people with themselves and others.

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wilbjammin

There's a test I give myself to see if I'm being authentic and have Good Faith.

I ask myself:

"Why do I think this?"

If I answer: "because I feel that it is true," then I ask myself "why do I feel that way?"

If I can't answer that question with anything other than, "I just do," then I feel like I am not being authentic and need to investigate further because something is lacking.

It is ok for the world to have contradictions; I just don't want to embrace those contradictions and make myself more contradicted as a result of it. It is a matter of Good Faith, and it involves living with an awareness of existence as it truly is - to the best of my cognative abilities. This endeavor to live in Good Faith is a constant challenge that is one thing that gives my life meaning, and I prefer it to stopping and not pushing myself to engage contradictions. Certainly, this is challenging and that can be frustrating. It isn't necessarily the easiest mode of living, but I am convinced that it is more fulfilling.

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ARTelevision

I have no faith.
I operate only on what I know.

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orphen

as the existatial theologian kierkegaard implicitly states, the knight of faith, a authentic christian, is one with enough passion to abandon what Art calls "what I know" for the trancendental. thus faith and the notion of passion is closely tied in an existantial sense; essentially, to have faith, you have to be passionate. in fact kierkegaard is the one who developed the notion of "the leap of faith". to have faith is a very hard thing according to Kierkegaard. to him, to have faith is to know you will not at all be effected/rewarded for your belief in this life or even ever YET you believe. it is believing blindly regardless of the outcome. it is illogical in every aspect. YET it is to have the passion to overcome logic when one can call oneself faithful... in your context or the context of relationship, if you ever read Othello (shakespeare) you can see, the lack of faith and the belief in logic caused the downfall in the relationship.

when asked "are you cheating on me?"
you never answer "i think i'm not"

you know it or don't. logic should not and does not(at least in shakespeare's context) work out in a relationship. you need to belief and at times even blindly in your partner for it to work out. as Halx signified, it's illogical. it's not suppose to be logical.

this is all based on a very late enlightenment/early romantic type of philosophy. modern relationships are often more pragmatic as we have more choices and rooms for divource/breakups. it's up to you, if you need faith, then forget about logic or thinking about it. you need to stick with passion...

//two cents

MSD

I really see no reason to do anything else. No matter how much I hear about "God," I never saw the guy, felt his presence, and he never did anything to get me to believe.

stonegrody

People kill people in the name of religion and yes, religion does dictate how you should live and it is very constricting. But religion does not equal faith. People can have faith without being religious and still live the way they choose. People can also take religion too far and try to force it on other people. These are faults of man. It is up to the individual what they choose to believe or not believe. That is the personal freedom you DO have

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raeanna74

I don't abide by any specific set of religious beliefs. I do believe there is a god. I believe there is a supernatural level to this world. I may be wrong but I feel like there no harm in believing this as long as I'm willing to question in from time to time. I have experienced some things that cannot be explained in scientific terms according to what we know currently today. Maybe it's ESP or some other thing that may down the road be proven scientifically. At this point it's too much of a concept for me to wrap my mind around without any scientific way of exporing the possibilities. So...I simply have faith in some other level of "supernatural" reality. How do you explain "KNOWING" something that is happening 100 mi away before or while it's happening? I can't explain it. Science can't explain it. It's happened more than once and the occurance has been something out of the ordinary and unpredictable.

I have faith that I CAN do what needs to be done. Mostly when I'm in a bad situation I think, "What's the worst this could get?" If so how can I deal with that. When I've come up with a plan A and a plan B I'm not as afraid of what will happen.

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wilbjammin

Ok... I knew this was coming, so I think I'll spend a few moments on Kierkegaard.

Kierkegaard's beliefs about faith were shaped by his very strange upbringing as the youngest of 7 children to a depressed, devout Christian - that upbringing made him violently miserable, and he could never shake his Christianity nor justify it, and he threw away his lover by sleeping around town with prostitutes because he couldn't handle the relationship while baring the awful burden of Christianity and his need to deal with that before the rest of his life could take shape...

Kierkegaard once wrote, "As a child I was strictly and earnestly brought up to Christianity, humanly speaking, insanely brought up: even in my earliest childhood I had been overstrained by impressions which were laid upon me by the melancholy old man who was himself oppressed by them -- a child, insanely travestied as a melancholy old man.

Frankly, Keirkegaard's faith was his poison. I really see his writings about the Knight of Faith to be an attempt to justify himself and his beliefs.

Camus wrote in one of his journals, "All philosophy is a justification of oneself. The only original philosophy would be the one that would justify someone else." My point being, I would be very careful about using Keirkegaard to justify your own beliefs because of how his own beliefs played out in his life, and how his beliefs did not come close to bringing him to happiness.

I think there is a possible implication here that faith is necessary for passion. It isn't, in the least.

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roachboy

the problem for kierkegaard with christianity was that he was in a direct line from nominalists like pascal (occam, etc. before that)
faith was irrational by definition: it was a leap....it involved a "pure inwardness" as he called it. this position created problems with talking about faith at all, in any direct way, not to mention with justification--which would be a problem that was almost antithetical to the nominalist game itself. you can look at "fear and trembling" as being in what he called the ironic mode because it deals with questions of justification directly....even if it is to show that the rules of the game that would link human beings to god in the judeo-christian tradition cannot be jammed into human categories, rules, laws, etc.

faith was also about control of the passions--on this pascal is clearer than kierkegaard, but nonetheless....


as for myself....i dont know what the thread is about, really, because i do not understand the need for faith. pascal is almost right in the famous "wager" pensee....:

it is possible that there is something higher.
it is possible that there is nothing higher.
the question of whether this something is finite or infinite is not interesting.
the question of whether human understanding could gain access to this higher force/being, if it existed, seems clearer: there would be no access....
where pascal is wrong, for me, is in his assertion that for some reason you as a human being cannot avoid making a choice about the question of faith.

i think the non-access problem is definitive: this means that the categories you create are just that, categories, names, words. worship them if you like, but i personally dont understand the impulse, and am not moved by the problem. it does not bother me to not know----it does not create any dissonance----does not require a decision.

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anti fishstick

I have faith in myself and the people around me. I do not need a God or higher power to conjure my faith. I have always thought that living in faith of a God or higher power is only a coping mechanism to get through life and I don't want or need that. I feel that my life is fuller just by thinking, appreciating, and being guided by my own individualistic path. I am constantly questioning things and it gives my life more meaning than just living on automatic. When things get hard, I have faith in *myself* that I can get by and everything will turn out ok. I am responsible for my choices and actions and this governs a lot of my thoughts on faith.

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Halx

I'm glad orphen brought that up, and to wil: While Kierkegaard's 'logic' seems like nothing but cognitive dissonance to us, to someone with absolute faith, it's very noble.

But I'm going to challenge Kierkegaard right here. I'm going to say that to have faith (especially in today's world) is MUCH easier than to not. Look around you to find religion everywhere you go. When you have faith, you are part of a community. Our world's leaders show faith. They fight wars for faith. People get empassioned by it and the mob mentality makes it all too easy for someone to get wrapped up in faith.

Why is faith so popular? Well, this may be more cynicism coming from me, but the atmosphere that humans make for themselves is typically less than agreeable. Many people NEED faith to lift them up from the shit hole that they're in. We don't teach our children skills to overcome obstacles, we teach them faith to dream their way out of it.

So how can I be sure if my girlfriend is cheating on me or not? I can tell you, it's got nothing to do with having faith in her. I know what I know about her and I make a judgement based on that. Trust, to me, is not faith, it's an evaluation. Chance and risk is not faith, it's a surrender to the odds. The difference between all of this is fairly simple. If I trust my girlfriend, but find signs of her cheating on me, I can accept that and show her the door. However, this blind faith that people speak of would have me denying this evidence's very existence.

It's about being truthful with yourself. And like I've said in a previous thread... when it's all said and done, you've lived life as an athiest, but you've done everything in your power to be an awesome human being, and it turns out there really IS a god, is he going to hold it against you that you chose to ask a few questions to educate yourself rather that buy into the same packaged all-inclusive deal that everyone else did?

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sixate

I'd just like to say that I agree with Hal 100%. Been too busy to put in a long opinion in here, but Hal said exactly what I think.

wilbjammin

Yes, I am just pointing out that Kierkegaard was tormented by his beliefs, and one might keep that in mind if they are going to champion his views.

However, I would much prefer discussing these issues with someone who agrees with Kierkegaard and admits to the absurdity of religion than with someone who doesn't see the absurdity. That, at least, provides us with something of a common ground and the possibility of an open conversation.

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orphen

as much as Kierkegaard points out the absurdity of religion, in creating authentic characters, he also points out the difficulty of being a "true" knight of faith. he admits that he himself could never achieve that. thus leads to the point of Halx's. I believe religion and faith are two very different things at times. In my opinion/perception of the authentic knight of faith, i do not believe most modern christians have the capacity or even understand the passion required to be a "authentic christian". To be a christian who follows rules and goes to church i believe can be defined as the "ethical" not "religious". to be the "religious" , as i interpretted from Kierkegaard, is a quite difficult path. You have to be like Abraham and kill your own son regardless of moral opinion. you defy moral, laws and ultimately logic for your god. this is demonstrated through Kierkegaard points out the path to being the knight of faith requires one to first become the knight of infinite resolution for one needs to give up all hope of ever recieveing the "award" in the secular sense. Just a parallelism i'd like to point out, Nietzsche in his "the will to power" also points out the important stages one must go through to become a ubermanchen much like Kierkegaard's. One might point out that Nietzche is an athiest existantialist while Kierkegaard counts as a theologian. but ultimately, i believe the two resonate in their struggle against Nihilism. going through the stage of the donkey, to the lion, to the baby much like from the asthic, ethical, to the religious. This struggle is with oneself and ultimately the hardest struggle an intellectual will face. personally, i was quite a platonist for the longest time. i loved literature like Echer Godel and Bach. things that dealt with order. But my humantities teacher just HAD to shut me down with existantialism.. now i have to struggle everyday in my decision to not fall into a nihilistic cycle *sigh.. that's alot of trouble* . In conclusion my head hurts

animosity

This is how I feel... I dont think I could have said it any better.

I feel the need to quote this again. " I only trust consistency."

QuasiMojo

Trust in your own coincidence

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orphen

yeah, that's actually what i do these days. I trust logic and am an existantial atheist. i think i'm still in the "lion" stage if you quote Nietchea but i'm only 18, i guess i gotta see how i turn out and how much authenticity i can retain

wilbjammin

Of course faith and religion are different. The truth of the matter is that religion shapes faith (but the converse that faith shapes religion is not true). Having read Kierkegaard and Nietzsche, I know what you're saying, but I think that you're missing a few things. The idea of the teleological suspension of the ethical demonstrated in Abraham is merely the absolute demonstration of absurd faith. These parabols and metaphors serve as literary devices more than a guidebook - this is very important in understanding what they mean for humanity and individuals. He is suggesting an ultimate relinquishment of his intellectual integrity to an external force that he doesn't have intellectual access to. Regardless of the extreme case of Abraham, that is a lot to ask even in the most miniature of circumstances.

The struggle with nihilism is present in nearly all literature, going back to Plato's Cave and Beowulf. There has always been a trouble of finding meaning in life, as we are born "without essense" (using the term that Sartre uses) and then meaning construction happens as we age.

You mention that you're young, and that you have to struggle not to fall into a nihilistic cycle. I think that is a crucial experience that thinking, feeling humans should go through at some point in their life. There comes a point when cutting a swath through the rhetoric of all philosophy, and everything else that is mediated to us, needs to be torn down from metaphors into their essential qualities as a necessary step into breaking out of the cycle.

Ironically, the trouble with a systems approach to international issues, national issues, and at times state issues, is that they abstract the issues faced by individuals into generalities. The problem with philosophies based on these abstract concepts that develop systems of interpretation is nearly the same. Both can be helpful in understanding a relationship between the self and something larger - society or existence - but to solidify that understanding, a degree of "de-abstraction" needs to take place. It is no accident that Nietzsche could not find enough to write about how he hated Christianity, but had many good things to say about Buddhism. He understood that for psychological reasons and reasons of intellectual consistency, we need to simplify our lives so as not to get lost in the abstraction of life.

(note - This is a much more difficult challenge now in the post-modern era because of the rise of simulacra. We are constantly bombarded with images that do not reflect the real nature of existence, and yet they shape existence. The distance between reality and reality is growing - the paradox of mediated existence: hyperreality)

So, the answer to the failures of a systems approach to politics is localization, the same answer applies to philosophical dilemmas generated within the self. Camus does this by asking the question of suicide (he takes the problem directly to the self). If he can find a reason not to kill himself, then he knows that his life has value. Understanding suicide as an attempted escape from the problem of absurdity, he saw it as an inauthentic escape. Thus, you aren't truly escaping. He finds that he is able to live in the face of absurdity through his defiance and rebellion towards absurdity. I'd suggest reading his "Myth of Sisyphus" for a further understanding of what I mean.

The desire to fall into systems of order falls into the same trap regardless of the system choson. External systems of meaning, even when internalized, are flawed due to their external nature. You have to simply start with the self, and all of your understandings about the inherent lack of meaning in everything can be negated by your defiance towards the situation. This may not be ideal, romantic, sexy, and it may be very problematic... but I have yet to see a more authentic way of approaching existence. As time passes it gets easier to live in spite of everything as you take charge and create more for yourself from existence, and move away from allowing externalities create your life for you.

I guess that is long, and possibly confusing, but I think it is helpful in at least understanding my perspective and it may be helpful to others who read this.

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orphen

no, i understand your reasoning and agree to most of it. i merely see Kierkegaard in a different context. yes, the struggle has always been against nihilism but in the "modern" sense (relative to Kierkegaard) it's in the context of truth. Because I believe Kierkegaard does point out the absudity of believing in god or even the trancendental. but i also see at the same time his admiration toward those who are able to see through the absurdity.. -- see is not the right word-- nono.. the ability to leap pass the absurdity. pass logic and moral values as beyond logic, moral and at times "good and evil". yes, abraham is an extreme case. yet, to point out authentic characters are pointing the quintense of a certain sets of trait. Of course one cannot be like abraham but to call oneself an authetic christian one must live in the same spirit of seeing pass absurdity. It's not logical as a tthe time most intellectuals have agreed the non-logical existance of god as the idustrial revolution drove exploitation to extremes.

In essense i believe that Kierkagaard (boy i hate spelling his name -__-) is a theologian who does not do so much as promote christianity but instead points out a role model by which an authentic christian lives. thus he creates the absurd knight of faith toward whom he openly admits his admiration due to the difficult nature of being an authentic christian.

i mean all his examples were very extreme. ranging from the judge to the play-boy these authentic characters are merely models of "truth"; of definition. people we identify ourself with.

That's what i got from my readings may be way off- oh well, i have alot to learn

Halx

I think wil and I should team up to combat missionaries with logic.

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wilbjammin

It seems to me that this is a tautological failure. You cannot leap past the absurd into the absurd.

Which is precisely why Nietzsche wrote so much about how we need to reject these accepted standards of morality. If morality is illogical, why the hell do we accept it? The "Geneology of Morals" and "The Antichrist" not only show how tantilizingly bad many moralities are because they are baseless, but also how harmful they are to the human spirit (such as in "The Antichrist" when Nietzsche talks about how Christianity has created a system in which people need to have people in poor situations for them to pity in order to feel good about themselves).

Now, you'll like say something again about how this isn't about Christianity, this is about faith... and, I just want you to stop yourself, and realize that if the faith is in anything that is illogical, then it might as well be the same thing.

No, the Knight of Faith is an sort of archetype, and there is a big difference. "Either/Or" is a series of essays showing the archetypes of different modes of existence. "The Rotation Method" demonstrates the aesthetic mode of existence, which we can all associate with the Don Juan character in "Diary of the Seducer". "Equillibrium" then leads us towards the next mode of existence - that of the ethical. Of course, you've mentioned the "Knights of Faith and the Knights of Infinite Solitude" which demonstrates the final leap. The progression goes from: 1) no ethics/no reason/joy in immediacy, 2) ethics/reason/joy in intermediacy, 3) ethics/no reason/joy in infinity. It isn't exactly a logical progression, but the arc does show the move from now to beyond human capacity. I just think that attempting to move beyond human capacity is an ill-conceived way of dealing with life. It seems more like a step back into the aesthetic mode of existence in its lack of reason, and the joy in something superficial.

I sure don't.

Yeah, logic is the trump card. It is hard to effectively argue against logic. Esp. when you're saying that you should do something completely unethical and unreasonable because God told you to do so. We have a name for those people. Cultist murderers: David Koresh, Jim Jones, Marshall Applewhite, Charlie Manson, etc. They are condemned by society. Do you think they're heroes? These are the closest pinnacles to the Knights of Faith that I've found - true examples of the teleological suspension of the ethical.

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orphen

Again, i think we interpret Kierkegaard very differently. I really thought he was a theologian demonstrating the modern path of a christian. you seem to see the quite opposite as you believe he is pointing toward being the ethical as the answer. oh well, i guess better reread some literature

anyways, there is one point, however, i disagree strongly which is your saying "Nietzsche wrote so much about how we need to reject these accepted standards of morality. If morality is illogical, why the hell do we accept it? ". From beyond good and evil, and thus spoke Zeruthustra or however the hell you spell his name i believe Nietzche points out specificly that he does not promote nihilism in the sense of rejecting morals and standard but instead he believes to be a ubermanchen one needs to first follow moral standards as guildlines as the "lion" then move BEYOND it. it is important to understand that you do not abandon them but instead you are beyond it for the purpose of self improvement. I believe in the existantial sense, --although it seem that i'm probably way off :P -- the notion of hte ubermanchen is parallel to the notion of the relgious as one devote not to moral but instead to someone beyond. for Niezche it's being beyond good and evil for one's own growth while for Kierkegaard it's for god which is why i believe they call Nietzche the atheist existantialist while Kierkegaard the christian existantialist -- but again, i seem to be way off from your comment T_T need to reread -- . My question then is why Kierkegaard studied by theologians as part of the course and why is he THE christian existantialist? **confused** moving back to Nietzche, i cannot stress the point of BEYOND good and evil and being the "above" man. I remember reading the essay demonstrating that Kurtz from Heart of Darkness. If you agree with this notion, then Kurtz would be an example of a failed ubermanchen. Thus the importance of his idealism in moral and the ultimately destruction of his moral. Now i'm just babbling -_- but as i said, i strongly disagree in your saying Nieztche believieng moral standards are illogical; i think he believes that they are created by what he calls the "herd mentality" which men follow for the survival of the race. yet in essense, the ubermanchen can move beyond that for his own gain just as Kurtz exploited the natives in heart of darkness. yes nietzche DOES redicule tradition but he does NOT redicule morals in its basic forms as illogical...//two cents /// time to reread my Kierkegaard before summer ends :P

wilbjammin

No! I said that ethics was the second mode, and for Kierkegaard the highest mode was Faith. I'm pointing out that it is very problematic to do that for several reasons.

Ok, I think this is tangential to my point and what I was referencing. I specifically referred to the decadent system of pity that he spends a lot of time bashing. He specifically says that he doesn't accept those things which embrace decadence. That is not moving past logic, that is very logical. You are basically right about the idea of moving past "good and evil", the key being that an understanding of what is understood as "good and evil" can lead towards the conclusions that some accepted practices morality, ethics, and "good and evil" are harmful to the human spirit. The idea of moving past them is a kind of rejection, but not a blanket rejection. He suggests that you engage them and choose which are worth continuing to follow, and not those which aren't worth following.

I don't know. You're referring to one of the most difficult metaphorical ideas of Nietzsche that "Man is something that must be overcome." There is language that has transcendental overtones, but I think that metaphor is deeply grounded in the individual, humanity, and working within our humanity. Being above man, in my understanding of Nietzsche, means being above the decadent structure that humankind has created to squelch the human spirit (or power).

This is precisely the misunderstanding that led Hitler and the Nazis to their atrocities. By attempting to rise to power through a rejection of morality, they created a new structure of morality that is more flawwed than other structure we've seen to date - and certainly the most decadent.

I think one can easily find some progressive undertones in Nietzsche, but that is also problematic due to his sexism. Since his idea of how to move towards being powerful rejects the idea of relying on the weaknesses of others, one conclusion of that is to help raise everyone out of weakness (which would make sense because Nietzsche is attempted to education an audience with his books). The other possibility is that power comes from elsewhere, and being the "superman" is something that one can do outside of the bounds of human structures.

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orphen

i completely agree with you in the problematic nature of Nietzche's ideal. As you stated earlier,alot of personal struggle is resolnated through ones literature and it is no diffferent for Nietzche as if you read any biography, it would put that his life was pain ridden. he was a very sick all the time and almost blind for writng days or even weeks wihtout break. he pretty much drove himself insane. another issue is the "heart of darkness" example; i think it's important to acknowledge, although the Nazi took nietzche and worped it, the danger of having or being an ubermanchen for beyond good an evil, one must draw power from ones own decision; trust in oneself. it can easily turn out like kurtz who redeamed himself only through death.

another thing is, i belive one of the fundemental and most important aspect of existantialism is creating ones own belief thus although we have different interpretation of Nietzche, regardless of his original intention, it is for us to interpret for outself and try to learn the most from it. As our own definition matters more than his intention in the light of individualistic existantialism. Thus, ultimately, neither of us can prove each other wrong or right as Nietzche's poetic writing, very much impressionistic --like the art of the period-- emphasises the interpretation of oneself (i presume so.. perhaps wrong.. ?). there arethus no "right" answers but better or worse answers. I tihnk your argument is valid and it may be due ot my lack of knowledge in both of these philosophers that we have such dissent; yet i also speculate the underlying difference in our perspective cannot be "proven" wrong but instead we can learn from each other through communication so keep posting, i'm ready to explore.

**thanks**

moonstrucksoul

thank you everyone for your different views.

after being brought up in a household where the only use of the word God was "God Dammit, boy!", I have struggled my entire adult life to figure out where God fits in to it. There hasn't been any signs, no spoken words inside my head that I haven't reduced to my own subconcious. But I was given parents who became wise and loving after I turned into an adult myself. I was given two beautiful, healthy children, (I wish that you all could see them), a best friend whose has the most beautiful soul i have ever known to have a body trapped insided it. and I have been surrounded by people who, even though not related by blood, have loved me like a son. How can there not be a Greatness in all of that?
My faith, is here, inside my heart, beyond my soul, and designed from my knowledge that I, AM.

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