12-25-2003, 10:03 AM | #41 (permalink) |
Crazy
Location: right behind you...
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I believe in God/gods for multiple reasons.
mainly I believe because I live. I have defied science too many times. I've been on my deathbed five times, i've rolled off of a ramp onto my head with no injury, i've OD'd, i've suffocated, i've wrecked, i've done lots of impossible shit to believe I don't get some divine intervention time to time. i believe in gods cuz I've seen spirits. mind you I've beaten painkillers, been on hundreds of medications and more. These were not hallucinations. I have far too many links with people to believe we're just matter without a big picture. feeling things go very wrong and knowing who it is hundreds of miles away... it happens to me all the time. and as far as God.... i see it in a light that terrifies most people. i realize that I can think whatever I want and change nada. God can be a spoiling mom, neutrel or evil and I can't do a thing about it. God has the rulebook in hsi hand and he can damn well do as he likes. this is where i differ. it scares me at times but I follow my heart. period. I believe in a God (Christ) that 1) knows we fuck up 2) doesn't expect perfection from flawed beings 3) is forgiving 4) He will help when possible, but will not live for you 5) He loves us. when we violate each other without just cause we sin. if thjis isn't correct don't follow him. I will not support a cruel god without major reasoning. i will not back up bad things or habits. so in a nutshell. i still believe. i gotta run, sorry for such shoddy writing! |
12-25-2003, 02:39 PM | #42 (permalink) |
Psycho
Location: YOUR MOM!!
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If you don't believe in God, and he doesn't let you into heaven. So what, you don't believe in him, right?
Like most laws here on Earth, you can't plead ignorance and expect to get away with stuff. God gave us freedom of choice as well as intelect to search out the truth and find him. This of course is my opinion.
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And now here I stand because of you, Mister Anderson, because of you I'm no longer an agent of the system, because of you I've changed... |
12-25-2003, 04:39 PM | #43 (permalink) | |
Junkie
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let me try to make myself clear what if you live in place were there is no belif in god read afracian tribe but you live a good life should you go to heaven i mean you really are ignorant acorrding to your bible those people go to hell is this right i think not |
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12-26-2003, 01:51 AM | #44 (permalink) |
Go Ninja, Go Ninja Go!!
Location: IN, USA
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as far as I'm concerned, what the Tribes believed in is the same God we believe in.. they merely interpreted it differently. Look at the bible and how many different way it is interpreted. There is no "ONE" religion as we all have interpreted him a bit different.. Same guy.. he's just looked up with a lot of variety. Those Africans still go to heaven.
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RoboBlaster: Welcome to the club! Not that I'm in the club. And there really isn'a a club in the first place. But if there was a club and if I was in it, I would definitely welcome you to it. |
12-27-2003, 12:40 AM | #45 (permalink) | ||
Psycho
Location: Texas
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12-27-2003, 04:39 AM | #46 (permalink) | ||
Banned
Location: St. Paul, MN
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There are other passages too, and the main idea drawn from them is that people are judged according to the law that is written upon their hearts. in which case, your example people would probably fare pretty well. many christians, even fairly hardline ones, beleive that people who have never heard the gospel are given a chance to hear it and accept it before judgement. personally, i don't believe in judgement as a single event, or reward/punishment as two eternally dichotomous states, but that's not really the point here. ps...i wonder why people never choose white, upper class heathens for this sort of example. doesn't seem right that "african" is an appeal to pity, or alternately, that christianity is being set up to appear racist. meh. Last edited by chavos; 12-27-2003 at 04:44 AM.. |
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12-28-2003, 02:33 AM | #47 (permalink) | ||
Go Ninja, Go Ninja Go!!
Location: IN, USA
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RoboBlaster: Welcome to the club! Not that I'm in the club. And there really isn'a a club in the first place. But if there was a club and if I was in it, I would definitely welcome you to it. |
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12-28-2003, 02:35 AM | #48 (permalink) | |
Go Ninja, Go Ninja Go!!
Location: IN, USA
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__________________
RoboBlaster: Welcome to the club! Not that I'm in the club. And there really isn'a a club in the first place. But if there was a club and if I was in it, I would definitely welcome you to it. |
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12-28-2003, 04:57 AM | #49 (permalink) |
Loser
Location: Far too far from my Angel....
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Believe in Gods? Does it really matter?
By there very conventional definition, any "God" is, by default, possessing of abilities, powers, strengths and intelligence far in excess of that possessed by mortal man. So they really wouldn't need my help or support, now would they? I've always subscribed to the philosophy of being the best "me" possible, and in so doing helping my fellow man through my deeds. FYI: Sophomore in college - after taking a decade-long haiatus from higher education. |
12-28-2003, 12:03 PM | #50 (permalink) | |||
Psycho
Location: Texas
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BTW, what does sleeping through alarms have to do with anything? Are you actually suggesting that you slept through your alarm clock and were late for work because of *supernatural activity*?????????? Quote:
linky 1 linky 2 Hallucinations. |
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12-28-2003, 02:04 PM | #51 (permalink) |
/nɑndəsˈkrɪpt/
Location: LV-426
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I've no faith. I don't think I am any better or worse off because of that.
Having faith, blind faith, is to me about accepting something as true, as fact, without basis. If I could accept God as fact, if I could accept that a god exists to begin with, then maybe I might grow faith out of that. The big problem with me and faith, religion, belief, whatever you want to call it, is that it seems ruined by the culture of religion. No specific religion, but the existence of religion. Each religion wants to describe and perceive divinity in their own, slightly unique way. Most of them have special, sacred books (written by man, of course) to back their claims up, and provide them with guidance and solace. Well, good for them. I find myself having more faith in science, because it does not claim to be something that it isn't -- for the most part. Scientific articles do not claim to be God's word, in fact whenever new discoveries are made, old information and research is re-examined and at times discredited. This does not seem to happen to the Bible, for example. The Bible is not allowed to be touched, it cannot be discredited or seriously examined, because it is the word of God, and thus The Truth. Well, that's all very exciting. But if something cannot be questioned, examined, even considered false if need be, merely because it is thought to be "the word of God", then as far as I can tell it has no credibility to begin with. I guess this is where blind faith would come in. But for me, it doesn't. Yes, you can claim that of course the Bible can and should be examined, even questioned, and there are people out there who do this all the time. However... Herein lies the problem. Not only is Christianity such an old dog that it cannot be taught new tricks, but it is hard to examine and question material which has no reference, no practical credible background or research behind it to back it up. How can one begin to question and discredit such information that is provided with the assumption that, because it is the word of God, it does not need to be proven? That it requires no actual proof to back up the fairy tales? Because of the nature of the Bible, you can only question its content via philosophical means, not really with scientific measures. Interestingly enough, both science and philosophy offer means to doubt, question, study and discredit, and thus grow. Nothing is considered absolute, anything can be discredited, any information can be updated when new discoveries are made. This is not true for religion.... Religion leaves no room for growth, unless it is within well-defined boundaries. Perhaps religion has ruined faith for me. Perhaps science stepped in, when God failed to deliver. Either way, faith in God offers some people with easy answers for questions that they have been wondering about. When in doubt, turn to the Bible. God also offers them comfort, understanding and, in some ways, knowledge and even growth. Science and philosophy provide me with all these things, and more. Blind faith fell short of doing so.
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Who is John Galt? |
12-29-2003, 02:20 AM | #52 (permalink) | |||
Go Ninja, Go Ninja Go!!
Location: IN, USA
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"This does not explain all religious experience by any means." This is from the Secondly Linky. This is all I was trying to point out. What you say may be true, but what I say also has a possiblity of being true. I was in no way trying to say you were wrong It's late, I'm tired, I'll try to reply back to this in the next coupla days. But one more thing to note. Most religious people believe that the human body has a soul, many of them will say how the soul and the mind are very much related.. the mind is connected to the brain, and the brains helps produce the spiritual experiences.. which it is "made to do.. (The brain is set up in such a way as to have spiritual experiences and religious experiences," ) So this quote was used to "disprove" God, where as I just used it to help prove... I'm not asking to change your mind, but I am asking you to look at the possiblity.
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RoboBlaster: Welcome to the club! Not that I'm in the club. And there really isn'a a club in the first place. But if there was a club and if I was in it, I would definitely welcome you to it. |
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12-29-2003, 10:49 AM | #53 (permalink) | ||
lascivious
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GakFace,
I don’t think that you are listening to papermachesatan. He is saying that miracles, angels, souls, the afterlife, a pot of tea, etc, do not prove god. Mentioning more random crap will not make your point any more clear nor disprove his. There are many flaw in proving god by association with phenomenon (besides the obvious one that no link can be proven), one of them is that it is rather inconsistent. Z may have gotten sick and recovered many times. Other people will get sick, stay sick for years and die a painful death. So if the case of Z proved a god then the case of many other sick people disproved god. Then there is this whole tendency of the religion crowd to be awfully selective without any explanation whatsoever. For example: Quote:
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So you see, to me god is not a necessity for any of those things to exist. They make just as much sense to me with god’s absence. |
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12-29-2003, 04:48 PM | #54 (permalink) | ||||||
Psycho
Location: Texas
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Additionally, even though many scientists hold religious beliefs, honest ones won't try to pass them off as valid scientific theories though. Optimisim, enviorment, etc. can all play signficant roles on recovery. But we'll say, for the sake the discussion, that the recoveries were unusual. That doesn't still doesn't mean that God did it. Please provide evidence of God's involvement. I don't understand why you keep insisting that your lack of knowledge on what happened means that God did it. Quote:
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The Burdeon of Proof of divine interventions and God still remains on you. Quote:
And about souls.. if the soul and the mind were very much related, why does a persons personality and mental capabilties change when one side of the brain is damaged?? And more so, why does God need an elaborate set-up or back channels to reach us through? Quote:
The brain is shown to be susceptible to outside natural interference which can account for 'religious experiences' = GOD???? wtf Quote:
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12-29-2003, 07:25 PM | #55 (permalink) | |
Banned
Location: St. Paul, MN
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The bible, first and foremost, to me is about relationship. Questioning, criticizing, curious, engaging, experimenting, relationship. One of my pastors has a saying about that a Christian should treat the bible like a farmer handles a chicken. Carefully, but with a willingness to grab it and dig in. Its a funny way of saying it, but i think it captures the point. Literalism kills the bible...and i'm not the only Christian to think so. Anyhow, all i ask is that Christianity doesn't get portrayed soley as a conservative endevour. there is a sizable, vocal, and intellectually developed movement that is outside and against fundamentalism. |
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12-30-2003, 08:36 AM | #56 (permalink) |
Go Ninja, Go Ninja Go!!
Location: IN, USA
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First I want to point out that I'm not here to disprove a thing. I was merely trying to point out that God is a possibility, and nothing more.
When I said that the quote was to disprove God, I did not say YOU used it to disprove God, I had read the article and that is where I had gotton it from. Also why would it be that God makes people sick? "Shit happens." And yes that could be just as plausable for someone's recovery, but there is also the possibility that God was there too. Many people agree that its kind of hard to prove god exists and that its just as hard to prove the opposite. If I offended any of you, I am truely sorry for this. I in no way meant to disprove a thing. Nor did I try to say God is the only way, or that you were wrong. I'm not here to prove a thing, this is why I'm not bringing hard cold truths with me.
__________________
RoboBlaster: Welcome to the club! Not that I'm in the club. And there really isn'a a club in the first place. But if there was a club and if I was in it, I would definitely welcome you to it. |
12-30-2003, 10:04 AM | #57 (permalink) | |
Psycho
Location: Texas
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12-30-2003, 11:11 AM | #58 (permalink) |
Go Ninja, Go Ninja Go!!
Location: IN, USA
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Its also possible that aliens have tricked us for thousands of years... Its possible that I am but a character is someone's reoccuring dreams. Its all possible. But just as you think my belief in God is irrational... I think you not believing in God is just as irrational. As people will agree the proof is hard to prove no matter which direction you go. So If to believe is Irrational, and to not believe is Irrational... what IS rational?
__________________
RoboBlaster: Welcome to the club! Not that I'm in the club. And there really isn'a a club in the first place. But if there was a club and if I was in it, I would definitely welcome you to it. |
12-30-2003, 12:00 PM | #59 (permalink) |
lascivious
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GakFace,
Not offended, this is a philosophy forum after all so one must expect arguments. I hope that I was did not come off as hostile; if I did I give my sincere apologies. On to the discussion at hand, One should not replace one’s beliefs with other beliefs. One should accept that their knowledge is limited. We have no knowledge of how reality was conceived or of its purpose. There are possibilities, but one must acknowledge them as theories, not truths. [edit]...oh i did not see that your new threads. I should continue this discusion in them.[/edit] Cheers. Last edited by Mantus; 12-30-2003 at 12:04 PM.. |
12-30-2003, 02:25 PM | #60 (permalink) |
Go Ninja, Go Ninja Go!!
Location: IN, USA
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I used to use the word 'Debate' & 'Argument' interchangably, BUT.. there is a difference between the two.
I expect debates, yes. Me & Mephisto have have some good ones. Arguements I do not expect. I also have no intentions of getting anyone angry, I thought that I might have so I figured before letting people brew some anger to me, that I would apologize. I'd rather have a civil debate with people I can call friends, and at the very least respect, rather than get into an arguement, those never end up good. --------------------------- As to your post.. "There are possibilities, but one must acknowledge them as theories, not truths." I completely agree with ya. I can completely accept the fact that I believe in a Fluke, that I've been tricked by aliens, or that I'm only the figment of someone's imagination. But I BELIEVE that God does exist. All are possible, there's just one I follow more closely too. I love looking at all the possiblities out there.. with everything. It makes life that much more interesting.
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RoboBlaster: Welcome to the club! Not that I'm in the club. And there really isn'a a club in the first place. But if there was a club and if I was in it, I would definitely welcome you to it. Last edited by GakFace; 12-30-2003 at 02:30 PM.. |
12-31-2003, 01:58 AM | #61 (permalink) | ||||
Psycho
Location: Texas
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12-31-2003, 03:27 AM | #62 (permalink) | |||||
Go Ninja, Go Ninja Go!!
Location: IN, USA
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__________________
RoboBlaster: Welcome to the club! Not that I'm in the club. And there really isn'a a club in the first place. But if there was a club and if I was in it, I would definitely welcome you to it. |
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12-31-2003, 12:21 PM | #63 (permalink) | |||||||
Psycho
Location: Texas
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12-31-2003, 11:34 PM | #64 (permalink) | ||||||
Go Ninja, Go Ninja Go!!
Location: IN, USA
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__________________
RoboBlaster: Welcome to the club! Not that I'm in the club. And there really isn'a a club in the first place. But if there was a club and if I was in it, I would definitely welcome you to it. |
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01-01-2004, 02:22 PM | #66 (permalink) | |
lascivious
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Oh guys this is getting silly, I promised myself that I would not post here for a while but I feel that I should.
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But who cares about odds. What’s important is what you do with the concept of god, whose existence you have hope in. Ethics, morality, creation, the nature of the universe, existence, angels, souls, afterlife, luck, fate, we can discus all of these concepts with or without a god. Our model of the universe works just as well without a god so I must ask the ask: What makes you choose god as the final answer? Why do you choose to believe in a god? |
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01-01-2004, 04:19 PM | #67 (permalink) | |
Banned
Location: St. Paul, MN
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Its not about the numbers. Open yourself the possibilities, ask yourself the questions, live in to that search, and find an answer for yourself. Already done so? Great. I respect your answer and self-examination. Think you might return the favor? |
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01-01-2004, 06:05 PM | #68 (permalink) | ||||
lascivious
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01-01-2004, 07:26 PM | #69 (permalink) | ||
Banned
Location: St. Paul, MN
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I don't mean to be an ass...but the why of beleif has been documented in this thread and others many, many, many times from many perspectives. Perhaps i am cynical, but I have yet to see such an statement simply respected for what it is. |
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01-02-2004, 10:49 PM | #70 (permalink) | |||||
Psycho
Location: Texas
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01-02-2004, 11:34 PM | #71 (permalink) |
Banned
Location: St. Paul, MN
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desparate desire? with what rational means do you read gak's mind? extrasensory perception? magic? divine intervention? you "win" only to the exent that you use emotionally loaded language to put words in someone's mouth. simply, there is a dispute on evidence. screaming that you're right, and using smartass phrases like "concession accepted" does not in fact make it an accepted fact that you are correct. perhaps i will regret my candor here, but i think it needed to be said.
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01-03-2004, 12:22 AM | #72 (permalink) | |
Psycho
Location: Texas
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God is a logically useless and unnecessary part of any theory to explain phenomena, etc. Anything that is rational can be logically justified. |
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01-03-2004, 08:37 AM | #73 (permalink) |
Banned
Location: St. Paul, MN
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this isn't a style question. putting words in someone's mouth: a logical fallacy.
http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/straw.htm using emotionally loaded terms: a logical fallacy. http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/pl.htm Unless God has granted you a miraculous insight in to Gakface's brain, your arguement ends in purely fictive and prejudicial material. |
01-10-2004, 10:59 AM | #74 (permalink) | |
Psycho
Location: Texas
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Congratulations on your successful nitpick. |
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01-10-2004, 11:52 AM | #75 (permalink) |
Banned
Location: St. Paul, MN
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a challenge to the spirit in which you conduct your arguements is not about nitpicking. you're being quite illogical about this...and it hurts the quality of the discussion. using appeal to emotion, and assuming facts not in evidence is not a rationally sound means to prove a thesis.
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01-10-2004, 06:25 PM | #76 (permalink) | |
Psycho
Location: Texas
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*sigh*
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Now, would you care to address the rest of my argument or are you finished? Last edited by papermachesatan; 01-10-2004 at 06:27 PM.. |
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01-11-2004, 04:00 PM | #77 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: In the land of ice and snow.
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All this talk and we still can't get beyond the age old:
Person1: I believe in god. Person2: You can't prove god exists. Person1: I know i can't prove it in any way that you can appreciate, but i know it in my heart. Person2: You can't prove god exists. Person1: I know, but i still have faith in the existence of god. Person 2: You can't prove god exists. I have removed all of the thinly veiled "my ideology is better than yours" insinuations for your reading convenience. |
01-11-2004, 05:18 PM | #78 (permalink) |
Psycho
Location: Texas
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I don't think that's a fair assessment and overly simplifies the last two 'positions'.
Person1: I believe in god. Person2: You can't prove god exists. Person1: I know i can't prove it in any way that you can appreciate, but i know it in my heart. Person2: Faith is irrational. Believing, in your heart, that 2+2=6 does not make it true. *third exchange unneeded.* .. Believe if you want but recognize that God is as an irrational method for describing the unknown as it was 150 years ago. |
01-11-2004, 08:06 PM | #79 (permalink) | |
Banned
Location: St. Paul, MN
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01-11-2004, 08:26 PM | #80 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: In the land of ice and snow.
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As for faith, it takes a certain amout of effort to ignore the fact that if not for everyday plain old faith, life would be very different. Do you have faith in your physician? Do you have faith that the person stopped at the red light isn't going to just peel out and hit you as you cross the street? Faith, however irrational, is the grease of life. Without it you'd never get out of bed in the morning. Do you know that the sun is for sure going to come up tomorrow? If you say yes, than you are a liar. Do you know that your parents, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, loves you? How can you be sure? I bet you act as though they do love you. Because you have faith. Quote:
You'll never find a scientific way to describe what belief in god and the afterlife describes. And you'll never win an argument about what happens when you die if the only tool in your shed is rationality. Shit, theres enough irrationality going on under the guise of culture and economics in the living world. Just because something is irrational doesn't mean it isn't accurate. Everything you have said is just a variation of, "Well, you can't prove it" because that is all you have. |
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crious, gods, people |
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