American conservatives are preparing for an armed revolution - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Baraka_Guru · 05-01-2009, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Fox News Continues to Hallucinate About a Socialist/Fascist Menace -- And It's Causing Real Damage

By Timothy Karr, Huffington Post. Posted April 30, 2009.

Fox news' insane rants about the impending onset of socialism/fascism has trickled into mainstream media. This is extremely dangerous.

Last week, conservative factions within the Republican National Committee circulated an e-mail urging party leadership to brand as a "socialist" anyone who advocates even moderate changes to the government's role in society.

It's clear that the overlords at Fox News Channel already got that memo and decided to ratchet the volume up a notch -- to 11.

According to Politico, RNC member James Bopp Jr. proposed a resolution that would acknowledge that President Obama wants "to restructure American society along socialist ideals" and call upon the Democratic Party to rename itself the "Democrat Socialist Party."

"Just as President Reagan's identification of the Soviet Union as the 'evil empire' galvanized opposition to communism," Bopp wrote, "we hope that the accurate depiction of the Democrats as a Socialist Party will galvanize opposition to their march to socialism."

Red-Baiting Redux

And indeed, this has been a season of red-baiting the likes of which we haven't seen since the reign of a certain senator from Wisconsin. The week before Bopp's memo, Rep. Spencer Bachus (R-Ala.) insisted that "some of the men and women I work with in Congress are socialists." Bachus says he has already counted 17 of them but that there may be more.

Also keeping a list is Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-Minn.), who in the final days of the 2008 election season questioned then-candidate Obama's patriotism and called for an investigation of Democratic members of Congress for "anti-American views."

Bachmann didn't rest there. During an appearance late last month with Fox News Channel's Sean Hannity, she reiterated her call for a revolution against the tyranny of President Obama and congressional leadership.

"This is economic Marxism," Bachmann said of their economic stimulus plan. "[Obama] is moving the United States away from free-market capitalism and instead he's imprinting socialism deep into our centralized economic planning."

Like most of Bachmann's ranting in the media and on the Hill, these allegations make zero sense. But reality hasn't stopped her from assembling a political career out of comments that fan the flames of fear among the most militantly conservative.

When Socialism Isn't Bad Enough

Bachmann is by no means America's sole demagogue. That she's been given a national stage to insult our collective intelligence, though, is cause for notice.

Bopp, Bachus and Bachmann's rhetoric has been taken up by the tele-pundits of the right -- especially those prophets of doom who have made Fox News Channel their base of operations. But these knuckle-draggers aren't satisfied with fighting mere socialism.

"We're into socialism now. That's not our final destination," Fox News Channel's Glenn Beck said during his radio broadcast. "Our final destination is happy-faced fascism." In another segment on his cable program, Beck repeated this charge over a video backdrop of marching Nazis.

The 'Fox Effect'

This Beck-Hannity obsession has triggered the "Fox Effect," a media phenomenon whereby the repetitive news framing of one 24-hour cable network seeps into the coverage of other outlets -- and, frighteningly, into the political discourse of society as a whole.

Before long, the cable talent at CNN, CNBC and MSNBC had fallen into step, booking right-wing guests intent on pressing the Marxist fear button.

On MSNBC's "Morning Joe," host Joe Scarborough has suggested that the Obama administration favors "European-styled socialism." CNBC's Larry Kudlow has made our "march to socialism" a centerpiece of several interviews on his evening program.

For its part, CNN dedicated several news shows to sage analysis of America's political shift, including a segment in which Quinn Hillyer, the editor and columnist of the conservative Washington Examiner and American Spectator, compared Obama's actions in his first hundred days to those of Mussolini in fascist Italy.

Missing from all the crowing is any meaningful reporting that provides context for our current economic situation, or analysis of changing public attitudes about increased government oversight of businesses like the banking sector.

Journalism: the Cause or the Cure?

All of this cable news hyperventilating comes at a moment when journalism is in deep crisis. The migration of news audiences to a free-flowing Internet has led to declines in circulation, subscription and advertising revenues for traditional media.

Falling revenues translate directly into budget cuts, which in turn mean more layoffs. More layoffs mean fewer journalists, and a lower-quality product as evidenced by the torrent of fear-mongering above.

Newsgathering institutions may die off or evolve over time, but one thing must endure: We need to sustain a corps of qualified working reporters who can earn a living delivering the real news and information that is the lifeblood of a healthy American democracy.

That's right, I said "American democracy."

If the so-called journalists of cable news really want to protect us against totalitarianism, real or imagined, they'd do well to follow the examples of better reporting that are a part of our long history of newsgathering -- instead of simply aping the latest scare tactics at Fox News Channel.

Timothy Karr is the author of MediaCitizen, a weblog about the future of America's media. He is the campaign director of Free Press. From September 2003 through February 2005, Karr was executive director of MediaChannel.org and Media for Democracy.

The Tea Parties are just the tip of the iceberg. There is a seething grassroots movement going on in America amongst the most militant of conservatives.

We've read the stories of people stockpiling arms and ammo in the aftermath of Obama's victory in the White House. We've seen the backlash against Democratic power: we've seen racism, paranoia regarding socialism/communism, etc.

It will only get worse.

The cumulative effect of the circumstances fuel the fire: a global recession, a pending influenza pandemic, the continuing loss of industrial production, a continued strengthening of Democratic power, a perceived erosion of Constitutional rights, a major network (Fox) doing more harm than good with "reporting the news," etc., etc.

The only thing currently lacking is a spark. I don't know what that spark could be, or how to avoid it from setting off the powder keg.

Any ideas? Any solutions?

Willravel · 05-01-2009, 07:47 AM

They'd never be able to fix things, they're peasants. Peasants are angry at everyone and everything except for the land owners, their real oppressors. I can't imagine conservatives going after executives that ripped off their investors or hedge fund managers that guilt the bubble that burst.

They can't take any important government installation, the White House, Capitol Hill, Pentagon, etc. are all expertly guarded. I'm not worried.

Baraka_Guru · 05-01-2009, 08:00 AM

Will, you're looking at it the wrong way. Consider the most probable situation. It won't be a matter of taking over the White House or the Pentagon. It will be more a mentality of "hands off me and mine!"

When Americans revolted against the British Empire, they didn't try to overthrow or usurp King George. Instead they kicked British rule out of their territory. This is how I see a conservative revolution happening today. Parts of the country attempting to force federal power out of their states or parts of their states, maybe even going as far as trying to rid of both federal and state power, where state power doesn't sympathize.

If these paranoid types see the Obama administration as corrupt, socialist, and/or infringing on "God-given rights," why wouldn't they try to rid their communities of this "evil" federal power? If they think the feds are coming after their guns (as that individual had recently), why wouldn't they revolt with these guns? What happens if this occurs on the level of the community, and other similar communities are spurred as a result? What if they form a solidarity as a result?

Willravel · 05-01-2009, 08:03 AM

So you think it would more take place as a civil war? Psshh... they don't have anywhere near the numbers. They'd get crushed.

Baraka_Guru · 05-01-2009, 08:06 AM

Isn't that what the British said?

The_Jazz · 05-01-2009, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

So you think it would more take place as a civil war? Psshh... they don't have anywhere near the numbers. They'd get crushed.

I agree with the caveat of "in any one place and large enough to make a difference". If you look at the facepalm that Texas had to do when Rick Perry suggested secession as being a viable option, I think you'll get a fairly accurate picture. I am sure that there are folks in every jurisdiction in the country who would do something along these lines, but I can't imagine those who would ACTUALLY pick up arms against the US government would ever comprise more than 5% of the population - at least at the outset. Whether or not that would grow depends very much on how the response is handled.

Willravel · 05-01-2009, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

Isn't that what the British said?

I don't see the French helping any militant neocons.

Look at how quickly Tim McVeigh was turned on by the right. Say some idiot actually does fight back. Do you think Sean Hannity would back him? Of course not. He's a coward.

ring · 05-01-2009, 08:37 AM

The new administration is very aware of what could happen.
Unfortunately there is strong and very much alive racist hatred in our country,
as well.

http://wnd.com/images/dhs-rightwing-extremism.pdf

roachboy · 05-01-2009, 09:07 AM

i've said this before in various rephrased ways, trying to be nice, but since this is in paranoia...
actually, now that i think about it, the only reason it is here, apart from an editorial decision, is the verb "planning" which i think is wrong in any event.

the republicans decided it was in their interest to fabricate a coalition with a range of far-right across the 90s. the coalition was never really coherent internally, but it seems that alot of folk had enough fun bouncing to the collective first person pronoun tracks that limbaugh and other populist ideologues were spinning that it didn't really matter--so long as the coalition was in opposition. once george w bush--a kind of reactionary chauncey gardner--got fashioned as all things to all far right wingers and the power of this populist reactionary discourse became momentarily evident, i think the coalition--which was a pure product of oppositional thinking--reached it's high point. all the segments then expected to get paid. some did, some didn't--either way then 9/11/2001 happened and things like that didn't really matter so much as the bush people could then navigate around the incoherence of their own base by substituting another Enemy. and for a while, this fascism-lite that people like limbaugh were all about effectively merged with the paranoid discourse of the Terrorist and the long march through the fog of american fascism-lite began.

then the fucking up started. then things got worse and worse and the ideological space the right had fashioned for itself receded like a tide and the political reach of the conservative movement evaporated along with it and things just kept getting worse for them. the republican party, which benefitted from this populist nonsense even as to appeal to moderates there was some hand-waving in the direction of nose-holding, got sucked into the vortex of its own making, a straight result of the singular, almost awe-inspiring incompetence of the bush administration. and now there's nothing but wreckage left.

so whaddya gonna do?

faux news has a business model to protect and a demographic to maintain and the infrastructure that our boy karl rove once bragged about in terms not that unlike an earlier boast about a thousand year reich---all that's collapsed. so generating hysteria becomes a business decision. everything faux news has done follows in a straight line from that.

conservatives know that their own actions have fucked them over completely, but they aren't real good at accepting responsibility for things it seems, so there's all kinds of distancing devices you see floating about--bush was not a "real conservative" blah blah blah---but all that really does is generate a sense of even more wreckage because it runs a separation between themselves and the republican party (for example).

not adept at reflexivity and too embedded in this fucked up mix of evangelical language with reactionary politics, these folk are pissed.

not adept at reflexivity and too embedded in this fucked up mix of evangelical language with reactionary politics, it seems almost predictable that they would now, collectively--in the sense of maybe everywhere maybe nowhere--feel themselves under threat.

so they're suceptible to hysteria because it enables them to direct the consequences of the fact that the right had power onto imaginary external threats.

and this is a lynchpin of any fascisant ideology. everywhere an Enemy that sucks dry the petit bourgeois Victim. everywhere a threat. all the time.

so guns. why not? lots of them too.

you, Evil Other, will not fuck with my stuff.

but i don't see a movement in this--i see a structured reaction. behind it, there's a bunch of management strategies, all geared around trying to find ways to weather a massive, self-inflicted political defeat. which is WAY bigger than the fact that obama was elected president.

so what it looks to me is happening is the formation of a new variant of the american extreme right, the kind of petit bourgeois right that's linked to the post-reconstruction extreme right, that's been a constant in the jurassic park of reactionary politics that is the united states.

what's changed is that these folk cannot occupy a collective first-person space and imagine that it extends much of anywhere.

they don't know how to deal with this. so guns.

that's my cheerful little narrative.
hope you had fun with it.

mixedmedia · 05-01-2009, 09:42 AM

boy o boy, spanky, that sure was powerful fun. let's do it again!

I feel the same way about whiny far right reactionaries and their guns as i do about the suh-whine flu.

mehge.

ring · 05-01-2009, 10:50 AM

That was a refreshing cathartic read...roachboy.

Cynosure · 05-01-2009, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

When Americans revolted against the British Empire, they didn't try to overthrow or usurp King George. Instead they kicked British rule out of their territory. This is how I see a conservative revolution happening today. Parts of the country attempting to force federal power out of their states or parts of their states, maybe even going as far as trying to rid of both federal and state power, where state power doesn't sympathize.

If these paranoid types see the Obama administration as corrupt, socialist, and/or infringing on "God-given rights," why wouldn't they try to rid their communities of this "evil" federal power? If they think the feds are coming after their guns (as that individual had recently), why wouldn't they revolt with these guns? What happens if this occurs on the level of the community, and other similar communities are spurred as a result? What if they form a solidarity as a result?

Hmm. That sounds awfully familiar. I think I heard about something like that happening, back in the early 1860s.

FuglyStick · 05-01-2009, 05:37 PM

Rational conservatives--they do exist--need to take this opportunity to purge their party of lunatic fringe extremists if they want the GOP to continue being representative of any significant demographic.

I've been largely a supporter of liberal policy since I've been old enough to vote, but on a few issues I appreciate the conservative point of view. They've made it impossible to find any middle ground or compromise lately, however, with the patients running the asylum.

Come back, GOP. I want an opposing party that offers an alternative view, not lunacy.

Zeraph · 05-01-2009, 06:48 PM

Everyone underestimates the peasants. They ride single file, to hide their numbers. Fear the sand people! I mean peasants! The French aristocracy laughed at the Guillotine...until the peasants executed them with it.

Willravel · 05-01-2009, 07:07 PM

The peasant mentality I speak of involves blaming everyone but those responsible. They want to blame the pro-choicers, the ivy league intellectuals, the community organizers, ACORN, Clinton, the House and Senate, all of the evil "leftists", but they refuse to judge anything connected with business. I'm more than willing to admit freely that the government has had some catastrophic screw ups not only in the past but even presently, but they're unwilling or unable to admit that AIG execs don't really deserve big bonuses. They refuse to admit that big business is out to screw them just as much as any politician. They refuse to admit that some government is necessary. They're peasants, and they bow every time the duke rides by on his steed. When they're dissatisfied, they blame everyone but the person that's directly causing them that discomfort.

I think there was a recent article about this on Smirking Chimp.

Edit: Found the article:

Quote:

...actual rich people can’t ever be the target. It’s a classic peasant mentality: going into fits of groveling and bowing whenever the master’s carriage rides by, then fuming against the Turks in Crimea or the Jews in the Pale or whoever after spending fifteen hard hours in the fields. You know you’re a peasant when you worship the very people who are right now, this minute, conning you and taking your shit. Whatever the master does, you’re on board. When you get frisky, he sticks a big cross in the middle of your village, and you spend the rest of your life praying to it with big googly eyes. Or he puts out newspapers full of innuendo about this or that faraway group and you immediately salute and rush off to join the hate squad. A good peasant is loyal, simpleminded, and full of misdirected anger. And that’s what we’ve got now, a lot of misdirected anger searching around for a non-target to mis-punish… can’t be mad at AIG, can’t be mad at Citi or Goldman Sachs. The real villains have to be the anti-AIG protesters! After all, those people earned those bonuses! If ever there was a textbook case of peasant thinking, it’s struggling middle-class Americans burned up in defense of taxpayer-funded bonuses to millionaires. It’s really weird stuff. And bound to get weirder, I imagine, as this crisis gets worse and more complicated.

"http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/21289"

FelixP · 05-01-2009, 10:06 PM

I don't have much to say, but I will preamble my post with this: I don't like Obama. I don't trust Obama. He's a shifty fucking character; he promises way too much, and a lot of people are going to be pissed when he keeps only a fraction of them. I realize ALL politicians are like this to some extent, but...well, anyway, I think an armed revolution is the worst thing militants could do. It would fail, and Obama would declare martial law, only increasing his power and furthering his agenda, whatever it may be. As an American, I would help supress any revolution in anyway I could, but I doubt it will come to that.

ring · 05-02-2009, 07:06 AM

I'm still trippin' on the "reactionary Chauncey Gardner", bit. Priceless.

JumpinJesus · 05-02-2009, 07:31 AM

...and we scratch our heads and wonder why our schools are producing illiterate, mindless automatons who can't be bothered to care about anything outside their own limited sphere of inter-entertainment. Do you honestly believe this is accidental?

While the article that willravel posted makes a lot of sense and does so in a very witty manner, the truth is it's just not the peasants who are delusional. The entire middle-class (yes, even us enlightened Progressives) has been duped in a manner that would make the peasants look like the League of Skeptics, and what's worse is that we're too arrogant to believe we could be.

Willravel · 05-02-2009, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixP

I don't have much to say, but I will preamble my post with this: I don't like Obama. I don't trust Obama. He's a shifty fucking character; he promises way too much, and a lot of people are going to be pissed when he keeps only a fraction of them. I realize ALL politicians are like this to some extent, but...well, anyway, I think an armed revolution is the worst thing militants could do. It would fail, and Obama would declare martial law, only increasing his power and furthering his agenda, whatever it may be. As an American, I would help supress any revolution in anyway I could, but I doubt it will come to that.

He'd only declare martial law if the rebellion were large, and the only way the rebellion could possibly be large would be if Fox News organized it. Call me crazy, but I think someone might catch on if an internationally broadcast 24-hour news station were calling for armed insurrection.

We *might* see a few individuals doing something stupid with their guns, but the way our military and police forces are set up there's no way they'd be able to do anything substantial. Had the Branch Davidians fired first, the standoff at Waco would have been over in about 20 minutes.

ASU2003 · 05-02-2009, 02:52 PM

The only scary scenario that I can see is if the US military stages a coup. There is about a 0.0001% chance of that happening though. It would make a great movie however.

The right does a lot better talking and arguing than actually doing anything. If they had been a little more effective in the past 30 years when they were in charge, I might be a little more concerned. But, they lost in a fair election, they need to move on and figure out what they are going to run on in 2 years. They aren't going to win a war with guns (unless it all goes to hell). They can still win at the voting booth.

timalkin · 05-03-2009, 11:30 AM

pan6467 · 05-04-2009, 12:03 AM

See, in all honesty I could be swayed to armed revolution and believe it or not I'm not a radical right wing nut.

I just see the country's leaders and media working hand in hand with big business and whichever party happens to be in power decides which companies will succeed and which will be hurt. An excellent example is watching who got TARP funds, who didn't who now has to sell to bigger banks that got TARP and so on. TARP has not and it's purpose is not to help the people but the banks and the top 5%. The rest of us just pay for it.

I think for the top 5% to complain they pay too much in taxes when in the past 20+ years they have watched their wealth increase exponentially while the middle class has lost and continues to lose more is pathetic. If that top 5% doesn't want to pay high taxes and truly believes in personal responsibility and the opportunity for someone to become self made, they would invest more into local businesses and build a better tax base instead of outsourcing and raping the workers.

I blame government because both parties have allowed the rich to get richer and done nothing to rebuild a truly viable tax base.

I look at the media and a great example of how they can make a company extremely wealthy is how they have scared us with the Swine Flu. In doing so (along with WHO), they have increased Tamiflu sales into what 500%? And if you research and see Donald Rumsfield gets 14-22% of its sales you can see why. (BTW Tamiflu sales also skyrocketed for the Avian Flu).

Donald Rumsfeld's controversial links to drug company behind Tamiflu | Mail Online

Anyway, back to the topic.... IF and only IF there was a true outcry to retake the country for the hard working middle class and not some bullshit given by talking heads with agendas of their own.... I would arm and join immediately.

But since that won't happen, I guess I'll just sit back and watch the country destroyed by the greed of the extreme wealthy and the political extremists who have such powerlusts they don't give a damn about people's rights or this country... they only want more power to control people's lives.... except of course the extreme wealthy that allows them that power.

Plan9 · 05-04-2009, 05:54 AM

I refuse to be associated with any kind of armed revolution.

They'd have mismatched uniforms and I can't handle that.

...

It's pathetic that anybody thinks this is viable. Or newsworthy.

We've had plenty of Republicans doing this stuff for ages.

Idiots like Timothy McVeigh, Montana Freemen, etc.

EDIT: Hah, it's the cracker equivalent of the jihad!

filtherton · 05-04-2009, 06:27 AM

I think that if armed rebellion results, most instances of it will be similar to the recent one where the "gun enthusiast" who was afraid that Obama was going to take away his gun ambushed and killed three cops. Which is to say, they will be stupid and tragic.

I am pretty certain that the easiest way to force any government to take your guns away would be to engage in open, violent rebellion.

Baraka_Guru · 05-04-2009, 07:52 AM

Do people actually watch this stuff? How do they synthesize it?

As someone who lives in an ostensibly "socialist" nation, I roll my eyes when I see things like this. This is unbelievable.

I can see this kind of thing fuelling the paranoia and misconceptions of millions of Americans.

They honestly think this is socialism? "The path to socialism"? Communism?

Holy crap. Are we living in the '50s?

And, Pan, I can't believe you'd be willing to take up arms. For what, exactly? This tells me one thing: you believe the American system of government has failed. What do you want in its place? You can borrow from our system in Canada if you would like. Or is that too socialist for you? But, wait....you want to go up against the capitalists it seems. Are you gunning for a socialist revolution?

Poppinjay · 05-04-2009, 08:12 AM

Baraka, keep in mind when you post Glenn Beck vids, this is an alcoholic who just a few years ago said he couldn't support Lieberman for president because the country would then not be able to form any kind of rational debate with Iran. Within the month, he said he could support Lieberman to be tough on Iran, and had no recollection of ever having said his previous statement.

He didn't sound confused over it, he just flat out denied it, and there was a shitstorm on his show about it.

He gets press now and then, but he's not saying anything new. He is a long time addict who came up through wakka wakka morning zoo radio and became conservative when he looked at his tax bill (under Reagan, who blamed the democrats).

A couple of things to think about, under Clinton the first two years of his administration plummeted in popularity because the economy initially worsened before skyrocketing. So far, under Obama the economy has dumped like a baby on soy and his ratings continue to go up. The American people are not fomenting rebellion.

And if there's one thing we learned from the 1992-2000 era, the nut jobs do not own the better guns.

The only thing that seriously worries me about this recent concern is that media outside the US really does not get how things operate inside the US. When Clinton was elected, the hue and cry from the right was deafening. People called in death threats non stop to any agency or media outlet that would hear them. Idiots crashed Cessnas into the DC mall, people referred to Hillary and Janet Reno as Butch.

That happened from the start. It's been reletively silent this time.

Willravel · 05-04-2009, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timalkin

I think we'll see a pretty big backlash if Obama and Co try to take guns away, and rightfully so. Haven't Americans learned from the history of gun confiscation?

I dunno, nobody did anything when people were illegally disarmed during Katrina. Nobody did anything after Ruby Ridge or Waco (unless you count Tim McVeigh... but he didn't use guns). It seems likely the "cold dead hands" thing is all talk.

Poppinjay · 05-04-2009, 08:45 AM

Not to mention that "Obama and Co" have said NOTHING about taking guns away.

Oh, I know, they never say anything about it. Then look what Clinton did? He took away all of our guns!

Tully Mars · 05-04-2009, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crompsin

I refuse to be associated with any kind of armed revolution.

They'd have mismatched uniforms and I can't handle that.

...

It's pathetic that anybody thinks this is viable. Or newsworthy.

We've had plenty of Republicans doing this stuff for ages.

Idiots like Timothy McVeigh, Montana Freemen, etc.

EDIT: Hah, it's the cracker equivalent of the jihad!

ditto

pan6467 · 05-04-2009, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

And, Pan, I can't believe you'd be willing to take up arms. For what, exactly? This tells me one thing: you believe the American system of government has failed. What do you want in its place? You can borrow from our system in Canada if you would like. Or is that too socialist for you? But, wait....you want to go up against the capitalists it seems. Are you gunning for a socialist revolution?

I do believe our system has failed. As I stated above, I believe the top 5% controlling the vast majority of wealth (some say 75% some say as high as 90%) control the country. They are like the Outer Limits "Do not adjust your television... we control all that you see, hear, read and think."

Beck, Limbaugh, Hannity, O Reilly, Cunningham, Coulter, Moore, Olberman, Matthews, Time, National Review.... and so on are all one in the same. The messages may seem different but the reality is that they divide and conquer. Thus the power structure never changes, the political parties will always just trade off like some bad tag team, but the rights of the people and the country as a whole will continue to be looted and destroyed. The politicians can't help themselves, they need to be reelected because they have POWER.

If politicians truly were looking out for the people they governed in this country and around the world, they'd mandate that ALL product brought into the US would have to be made by people making similar wages with similar working conditions and rights. But they don't..... WHY? Give me 1 truly good reason as to why. Well, it would be hard to police. Bullshit. It would be stepping on other countries toes. Bullshit. Sending lead painted dolls, poisoned pet food is ok because we don't want to step on toes? Preaching human rights and then allowing product made in a children's sweatshop or a factory that pays 28 cents a day to its workers is ok? If you are promoting standards for your country and demand those standards be followed by the people, then the product you bring in better be made by those same standards or... well, you lose your manufacturing base, your tax base and you financially free fall. You want to raise taxes on people scared to death that they may lose their job, can barely live for "universal health care" while the countries we have making our product have barely any human rights and no true healthcare system except for the extreme wealthy? You say, "there's no new taxes for that." Really then how is universal healthcare going to be paid for?

I think the vast majority who chair committees probably do so because the party or the puppet masters have pics of them and blackmail them. It becomes clearer every time a Senator or Rep speaks out or goes against the grain and all of a sudden they have a mistress, misspent campaign funds, took congressional payola, or the press just starts to dig into their background and tells us how bad of a person they are.

The top 5% sit back and get whatever they want from government and allow hacks like Limbaugh, Beck and so on talk about how they pay so much in taxes, meanwhile they outsource, close plants, do nothing to keep jobs or figure out how to rebuild a long lasting tax base. Thus, they will continue to pay higher taxes BUT it doesn't matter because they control the wealth. If I have a billion dollars, do you think I'm worried about the price of toilet paper, food, paying for my kids college, my mortgage, tires for my car, gas, utilities, etc? HELL FUCKING NO. But, if I do, I just raise prices and blame taxes, outsource and blame taxes and the American worker and unions for wanting too much and I can't be competitive and so on. I'll keep mine, fuck everyone else.

I don't believe in pure Socialism, nor do I believe in pure Capitalism or Communism. I believe we find factors of each and meld them. There is enough wealth in this world for ALL people to succeed and prosper. There will always be those who take their talents and flush them. That is part of free will and freedom.

I believe in economic justice not just for my country men but for all. But the only way we can have economic justice for all is to drastically change the system here in the states first and to demand that product made outside the states are made with US employment rights and laws. In doing so the other countries people will prosper and take more pride in their work, wealth will be spread out further.

For those beliefs, I would take up arms. But it will never happen. The longer we stay in this world recession, the richer that 5% gets and the more wealth they will ultimately control. The more wealth they control, the more they control what we see, hear, read, get taught and eventually think. Until, we are in a feudal system and believe that the overlord will protect us and the worse our standard of living becomes.

Baraka_Guru · 05-04-2009, 10:17 AM

But, Pan, despite the recession, the mortgage crisis, and the value of the ultra rich, America remains one of the top nations in terms of standard of living. Once things turn around, it will be business as usual—which I agree isn't the life of Pollyanna, but it isn't nearly as bad as most of the world. I'm guessing the average poverty rate is less than 15%—compare that to other nations, whose standards might not even be as high.

The median income in the U.S. is probably still higher than it is here in Canada. I don't see many seething people around here.

I understand the rich are getting richer, but unless the government is completely ignoring the poor ("socialist" Obama surely wouldn't, would he?), why would economics be the linchpin for revolution? America is doing quite a bit better than other non-revolutionary states.

And you would kill for this? Kill your own countrymen?

* * * * *

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poppinjay

Baraka, keep in mind when you post Glenn Beck vids....

Okay, you know this...I know this (now)....but what about his viewers? And do they even care? They're just after his "goods." They eat it right up, don't they?

pan6467 · 05-04-2009, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

But, Pan, despite the recession, the mortgage crisis, and the value of the ultra rich, America remains on of the top nations in terms of standard of living. Once things turn around, it will be business as usual—which I agree isn't the life of Pollyanna, but it isn't nearly as bad as most of the world. I'm guessing the average poverty rate is less than 15%—compare that to other nations, whose standards might not even be as high.

The median income in the U.S. is probably still higher than it is here in Canada. I don't see many seething people around here.

I understand the rich are getting richer, but unless the government is completely ignoring the poor ("socialist" Obama surely wouldn't, would he?), why would economics be the linchpin for revolution? America is doing quite a bit better than other non-revolutionary states.

And you would kill for this? Kill your own countrymen?

Very quick because I have to go to work... The median income level is a joke. To say "yeah people make this amount so life is good." is propagandist bullshit. It doesn't show how many are living paycheck to paycheck and are heavily in debt due to healthcare, credit cards, student loans, mortgages, etc.

True wealth IMHO is defined only by net worth. And since the average American is in debt and our government is extremely heavily in debt.... what wealth does the true average person have?

So, it's ok for nations we trade with to use slave labor, poor working conditions, little pay and no rights? As long as those goods are cheaper it's ok??????

If you are going to say America has the highest standard of living... we probably do, but we are in debt for it because we trade with countries that promote squalor living conditions with no or very little freedom.

If we truly have a great standard of living and our way is the greatest, then we must allow others that taste so that it can spread. The only way to do this is to tell those we trade with that all product they produce and ship into our country must be made in factories with equal workers rights, corporate regulations and competitive pay values and bonuses as those offered here.

Until we do that, we have no true wealth because we will continually seek cheaper labor for cheaper goods and outsource jobs until there is nothing left.

And yes, if there were a movement for this or my life and freedom or those I loved were threatened because of my beliefs, I would take arms.

To quote a Paul Anka lyric sung by Sinatra:

Quote:

For what is a man, what has he got?
If not himself, then he has naught.
To say the things he truly feels;
And not the words of one who kneels.

I would rather fight to the death for my beliefs and the right to hold them and possible see them come to fruition (but since they are so out there that will never happen) than to sit idly by, say nothing and be told that I cannot hold those beliefs. To me it's being true to oneself.

Willravel · 05-04-2009, 10:49 AM

A lot of people are living paycheck to paycheck because they're irresponsible, not because they can't afford the necessities. For evidence of this, one not need look further than the sub-prime fiasco. Most Americans live above their means. If you find a way to rally against these people, please let me know. I'll stand right beside you as you revolt against irresponsible spending.

Baraka_Guru · 05-04-2009, 10:55 AM

I agree, Willravel.

One doesn't need a six-figure income to become a millionaire.

Another indicator of wealth is earning ability over time, based on your current age. It's not your net worth only; it's where your net worth could be if you know how money works.

Many of us have (or have had) the potential to be millionaires.

pan6467 · 05-04-2009, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

But, Pan, despite the recession, the mortgage crisis, and the value of the ultra rich, America remains on of the top nations in terms of standard of living. Once things turn around, it will be business as usual—which I agree isn't the life of Pollyanna, but it isn't nearly as bad as most of the world. I'm guessing the average poverty rate is less than 15%—compare that to other nations, whose standards might not even be as high.

The median income in the U.S. is probably still higher than it is here in Canada. I don't see many seething people around here.

I understand the rich are getting richer, but unless the government is completely ignoring the poor ("socialist" Obama surely wouldn't, would he?), why would economics be the linchpin for revolution? America is doing quite a bit better than other non-revolutionary states.

And you would kill for this? Kill your own countrymen?

Very quick because I have to go to work... The median income level is a joke. To say "yeah people make this amount so life is good." is propagandist bullshit. It doesn't show how many are living paycheck to paycheck and are heavily in debt due to healthcare, credit cards, student loans, mortgages, etc.

True wealth IMHO is defined only by net worth. And since the average American is in debt and our government is extremely heavily in debt.... what wealth does the true average person have?

So, it's ok for nations we trade with to use slave labor, poor working conditions, little pay and no rights? As long as those goods are cheaper it's ok??????

If you are going to say America has the highest standard of living... we probably do, but we are in debt for it because we trade with countries that promote squalor living conditions with no or very little freedom.

If we truly have a great standard of living and our way is the greatest, then we must allow others that taste so that it can spread. The only way to do this is to tell those we trade with that all product they produce and ship into our country must be made in factories with equal workers rights, corporate regulations and competitive pay values and bonuses as those offered here.

Until we do that, we have no true wealth because we will continually seek cheaper labor for cheaper goods and outsource jobs until there is nothing left.

And yes, if there were a movement for this or my life and freedom or those I loved were threatened because of my beliefs, I would take arms.

To quote a Paul Anka lyric sung by Sinatra:

Quote:

For what is a man, what has he got?
If not himself, then he has naught.
To say the things he truly feels;
And not the words of one who kneels.

I would rather fight to the death for my beliefs and the right to hold them and possible see them come to fruition (but since they are so out there that will never happen) than to sit idly by, say nothing and be told that I cannot hold those beliefs. To me it's being true to oneself.

---------- Post added at 03:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:58 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

A lot of people are living paycheck to paycheck because they're irresponsible, not because they can't afford the necessities. For evidence of this, one not need look further than the sub-prime fiasco. Most Americans live above their means. If you find a way to rally against these people, please let me know. I'll stand right beside you as you revolt against irresponsible spending.

Really? Person with a college degree, works 40 hours a week makes let's say $10 an hour life is bleak because there are no longer jobs anywhere, he's stuck paying his rent, utilities and so on. His one vice is to go out once a week and see a movie. Who are you to tell him he's wrong and spending his money irresponsibly?

The fact he only makes $10 an hour while the CEO and upper management makes MILLIONS, is ok? Not to me. That's the wrong part right there. That';s fucked up thinking.... but it's what people are ok believing because that way no one will truly realize the workers deserve to be able to live decently without having to go heavily in debt and watch their jobs go overseas.

See, I truly can't stomach the bullshit that it's the little person's fault because they spend their pittance wrong, while the fucking rich keep getting richer and exporting what little decent jobs we have out.

roachboy · 05-04-2009, 11:25 AM

you know, this is a bit awkward because it's better that there be some recognition of the obvious fact of the american class structure than the opposite.....

but geez pan you act like you just discovered that this is that case and just worked out that it matters in shaping how things have played out.

i can't for the life of me figure out what you thought was going on before you woke up.

welcome to reality.

Baraka_Guru · 05-04-2009, 11:26 AM

The average annual earnings of someone holding an associate's degree in the U.S. is $38,000. It's over $52,000 for a bachelor's degree.

Who's making $10 per hour?

Willravel · 05-04-2009, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

Really? Person with a college degree, works 40 hours a week makes let's say $10 an hour life is bleak because there are no longer jobs anywhere, he's stuck paying his rent, utilities and so on. His one vice is to go out once a week and see a movie. Who are you to tell him he's wrong and spending his money irresponsibly?

I wasn't in debt when I was making $10 an hour and living on my own.

I've lived on $10 an hour as recently as 2002. I'm not saying it's easy, but if it's not impossible to live on $10 an hour in San Jose back when the housing bubble was still peaking, it's not impossible anywhere. It simply takes an iota of fiscal discipline. Unfortunately, fiscal discipline is about as common in America as... say... socialism. How many people do you know that are out of debt? Now look at all the people in debt. Do you see any decisions that might make, maybe some small sacrifices, in order to be debt-free? I do.

I work directly with some of the poorest families in the bay area. Just 30 minutes ago, I had a gentleman come in wearing $100+ shoes and a decent watch looking for free food for his kids.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

The fact he only makes $10 an hour while the CEO and upper management makes MILLIONS, is ok? Not to me.

Socialist.

timalkin · 05-04-2009, 03:06 PM

Baraka_Guru · 05-04-2009, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timalkin

There shouldn't be a revolution until the system is completely broken down. It ain't broken yet, thanks to the people who support the 2nd Amendment.

Whether anybody supports the 2nd Amendment has little to do with "the system" still working. That the 2nd Amendment is in place and working is a given. This plays such a minor role, which is why I'm always intrigued by how rabid people are about it, all the while there seems to be relatively little energy plowed into such things as the problems of education and poverty in the U.S.

You want to see the system break down? Let those two things spiral into oblivion.

But, hey, at least you have guns, right? Seems a bit like a self-fulfilling prophecy if you look at it this way.

05-01-2009, 08:00 AM	#3 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	Will, you're looking at it the wrong way. Consider the most probable situation. It won't be a matter of taking over the White House or the Pentagon. It will be more a mentality of "hands off me and mine!" When Americans revolted against the British Empire, they didn't try to overthrow or usurp King George. Instead they kicked British rule out of their territory. This is how I see a conservative revolution happening today. Parts of the country attempting to force federal power out of their states or parts of their states, maybe even going as far as trying to rid of both federal and state power, where state power doesn't sympathize. If these paranoid types see the Obama administration as corrupt, socialist, and/or infringing on "God-given rights," why wouldn't they try to rid their communities of this "evil" federal power? If they think the feds are coming after their guns (as that individual had recently), why wouldn't they revolt with these guns? What happens if this occurs on the level of the community, and other similar communities are spurred as a result? What if they form a solidarity as a result? __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot Last edited by Baraka_Guru; 05-01-2009 at 08:03 AM..

05-01-2009, 08:06 AM	#5 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	Isn't that what the British said? __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

05-01-2009, 09:07 AM	#9 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	i've said this before in various rephrased ways, trying to be nice, but since this is in paranoia... actually, now that i think about it, the only reason it is here, apart from an editorial decision, is the verb "planning" which i think is wrong in any event. the republicans decided it was in their interest to fabricate a coalition with a range of far-right across the 90s. the coalition was never really coherent internally, but it seems that alot of folk had enough fun bouncing to the collective first person pronoun tracks that limbaugh and other populist ideologues were spinning that it didn't really matter--so long as the coalition was in opposition. once george w bush--a kind of reactionary chauncey gardner--got fashioned as all things to all far right wingers and the power of this populist reactionary discourse became momentarily evident, i think the coalition--which was a pure product of oppositional thinking--reached it's high point. all the segments then expected to get paid. some did, some didn't--either way then 9/11/2001 happened and things like that didn't really matter so much as the bush people could then navigate around the incoherence of their own base by substituting another Enemy. and for a while, this fascism-lite that people like limbaugh were all about effectively merged with the paranoid discourse of the Terrorist and the long march through the fog of american fascism-lite began. then the fucking up started. then things got worse and worse and the ideological space the right had fashioned for itself receded like a tide and the political reach of the conservative movement evaporated along with it and things just kept getting worse for them. the republican party, which benefitted from this populist nonsense even as to appeal to moderates there was some hand-waving in the direction of nose-holding, got sucked into the vortex of its own making, a straight result of the singular, almost awe-inspiring incompetence of the bush administration. and now there's nothing but wreckage left. so whaddya gonna do? faux news has a business model to protect and a demographic to maintain and the infrastructure that our boy karl rove once bragged about in terms not that unlike an earlier boast about a thousand year reich---all that's collapsed. so generating hysteria becomes a business decision. everything faux news has done follows in a straight line from that. conservatives know that their own actions have fucked them over completely, but they aren't real good at accepting responsibility for things it seems, so there's all kinds of distancing devices you see floating about--bush was not a "real conservative" blah blah blah---but all that really does is generate a sense of even more wreckage because it runs a separation between themselves and the republican party (for example). not adept at reflexivity and too embedded in this fucked up mix of evangelical language with reactionary politics, these folk are pissed. not adept at reflexivity and too embedded in this fucked up mix of evangelical language with reactionary politics, it seems almost predictable that they would now, collectively--in the sense of maybe everywhere maybe nowhere--feel themselves under threat. so they're suceptible to hysteria because it enables them to direct the consequences of the fact that the right had power onto imaginary external threats. and this is a lynchpin of any fascisant ideology. everywhere an Enemy that sucks dry the petit bourgeois Victim. everywhere a threat. all the time. so guns. why not? lots of them too. you, Evil Other, will not fuck with my stuff. but i don't see a movement in this--i see a structured reaction. behind it, there's a bunch of management strategies, all geared around trying to find ways to weather a massive, self-inflicted political defeat. which is WAY bigger than the fact that obama was elected president. so what it looks to me is happening is the formation of a new variant of the american extreme right, the kind of petit bourgeois right that's linked to the post-reconstruction extreme right, that's been a constant in the jurassic park of reactionary politics that is the united states. what's changed is that these folk cannot occupy a collective first-person space and imagine that it extends much of anywhere. they don't know how to deal with this. so guns. that's my cheerful little narrative. hope you had fun with it. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

05-01-2009, 09:42 AM	#10 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	boy o boy, spanky, that sure was powerful fun. let's do it again! I feel the same way about whiny far right reactionaries and their guns as i do about the suh-whine flu. mehge. __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

05-01-2009, 05:37 PM	#13 (permalink)
FuglyStick WHEEEE! Whee! Whee! WHEEEE! Location: Southern Illinois	Rational conservatives--they do exist--need to take this opportunity to purge their party of lunatic fringe extremists if they want the GOP to continue being representative of any significant demographic. I've been largely a supporter of liberal policy since I've been old enough to vote, but on a few issues I appreciate the conservative point of view. They've made it impossible to find any middle ground or compromise lately, however, with the patients running the asylum. Come back, GOP. I want an opposing party that offers an alternative view, not lunacy. __________________ AZIZ! LIGHT!

05-01-2009, 07:47 AM	#2 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	They'd never be able to fix things, they're peasants. Peasants are angry at everyone and everything except for the land owners, their real oppressors. I can't imagine conservatives going after executives that ripped off their investors or hedge fund managers that guilt the bubble that burst. They can't take any important government installation, the White House, Capitol Hill, Pentagon, etc. are all expertly guarded. I'm not worried.

05-01-2009, 08:03 AM	#4 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	So you think it would more take place as a civil war? Psshh... they don't have anywhere near the numbers. They'd get crushed.

05-01-2009, 08:37 AM	#8 (permalink)
ring ░ Location: ❤	The new administration is very aware of what could happen. Unfortunately there is strong and very much alive racist hatred in our country, as well. http://wnd.com/images/dhs-rightwing-extremism.pdf

05-01-2009, 10:50 AM	#11 (permalink)
ring ░ Location: ❤	That was a refreshing cathartic read...roachboy.

05-01-2009, 06:48 PM	#14 (permalink)
Zeraph Banned Location: The Cosmos	Everyone underestimates the peasants. They ride single file, to hide their numbers. Fear the sand people! I mean peasants! The French aristocracy laughed at the Guillotine...until the peasants executed them with it.

05-01-2009, 10:06 PM	#16 (permalink)
FelixP Insane Location: I'm up they see me I'm down.	I don't have much to say, but I will preamble my post with this: I don't like Obama. I don't trust Obama. He's a shifty fucking character; he promises way too much, and a lot of people are going to be pissed when he keeps only a fraction of them. I realize ALL politicians are like this to some extent, but...well, anyway, I think an armed revolution is the worst thing militants could do. It would fail, and Obama would declare martial law, only increasing his power and furthering his agenda, whatever it may be. As an American, I would help supress any revolution in anyway I could, but I doubt it will come to that. __________________ Free will lies not in the ability to craft your own fate, but in not knowing what your fate is. --Me "I have just returned from visting the Marines at the front, and there is not a finer fighting organization in the world." --Douglas MacArthur

05-02-2009, 07:06 AM	#17 (permalink)
ring ░ Location: ❤	I'm still trippin' on the "reactionary Chauncey Gardner", bit. Priceless.

05-02-2009, 07:31 AM	#18 (permalink)
JumpinJesus Junkie Location: Chicago	...and we scratch our heads and wonder why our schools are producing illiterate, mindless automatons who can't be bothered to care about anything outside their own limited sphere of inter-entertainment. Do you honestly believe this is accidental? While the article that willravel posted makes a lot of sense and does so in a very witty manner, the truth is it's just not the peasants who are delusional. The entire middle-class (yes, even us enlightened Progressives) has been duped in a manner that would make the peasants look like the League of Skeptics, and what's worse is that we're too arrogant to believe we could be. __________________ "I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

05-02-2009, 02:52 PM	#20 (permalink)
ASU2003 immoral minority Location: Back in Ohio	The only scary scenario that I can see is if the US military stages a coup. There is about a 0.0001% chance of that happening though. It would make a great movie however. The right does a lot better talking and arguing than actually doing anything. If they had been a little more effective in the past 30 years when they were in charge, I might be a little more concerned. But, they lost in a fair election, they need to move on and figure out what they are going to run on in 2 years. They aren't going to win a war with guns (unless it all goes to hell). They can still win at the voting booth.

05-03-2009, 11:30 AM	#21 (permalink)
timalkin Addict Location: watching from the treeline	.. __________________ Trinity: "What do you need?" Neo: "Guns. Lots of guns." -The Matrix Last edited by timalkin; 12-20-2010 at 07:21 PM..

05-04-2009, 12:03 AM	#22 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	See, in all honesty I could be swayed to armed revolution and believe it or not I'm not a radical right wing nut. I just see the country's leaders and media working hand in hand with big business and whichever party happens to be in power decides which companies will succeed and which will be hurt. An excellent example is watching who got TARP funds, who didn't who now has to sell to bigger banks that got TARP and so on. TARP has not and it's purpose is not to help the people but the banks and the top 5%. The rest of us just pay for it. I think for the top 5% to complain they pay too much in taxes when in the past 20+ years they have watched their wealth increase exponentially while the middle class has lost and continues to lose more is pathetic. If that top 5% doesn't want to pay high taxes and truly believes in personal responsibility and the opportunity for someone to become self made, they would invest more into local businesses and build a better tax base instead of outsourcing and raping the workers. I blame government because both parties have allowed the rich to get richer and done nothing to rebuild a truly viable tax base. I look at the media and a great example of how they can make a company extremely wealthy is how they have scared us with the Swine Flu. In doing so (along with WHO), they have increased Tamiflu sales into what 500%? And if you research and see Donald Rumsfield gets 14-22% of its sales you can see why. (BTW Tamiflu sales also skyrocketed for the Avian Flu). Donald Rumsfeld's controversial links to drug company behind Tamiflu \| Mail Online Anyway, back to the topic.... IF and only IF there was a true outcry to retake the country for the hard working middle class and not some bullshit given by talking heads with agendas of their own.... I would arm and join immediately. But since that won't happen, I guess I'll just sit back and watch the country destroyed by the greed of the extreme wealthy and the political extremists who have such powerlusts they don't give a damn about people's rights or this country... they only want more power to control people's lives.... except of course the extreme wealthy that allows them that power. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

05-04-2009, 05:54 AM	#23 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	I refuse to be associated with any kind of armed revolution. They'd have mismatched uniforms and I can't handle that. ... It's pathetic that anybody thinks this is viable. Or newsworthy. We've had plenty of Republicans doing this stuff for ages. Idiots like Timothy McVeigh, Montana Freemen, etc. EDIT: Hah, it's the cracker equivalent of the jihad! __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake." Last edited by Plan9; 05-04-2009 at 06:48 AM..

05-04-2009, 06:27 AM	#24 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	I think that if armed rebellion results, most instances of it will be similar to the recent one where the "gun enthusiast" who was afraid that Obama was going to take away his gun ambushed and killed three cops. Which is to say, they will be stupid and tragic. I am pretty certain that the easiest way to force any government to take your guns away would be to engage in open, violent rebellion.

05-04-2009, 07:52 AM	#25 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	Fuel on the fire Do people actually watch this stuff? How do they synthesize it? As someone who lives in an ostensibly "socialist" nation, I roll my eyes when I see things like this. This is unbelievable. I can see this kind of thing fuelling the paranoia and misconceptions of millions of Americans. They honestly think this is socialism? "The path to socialism"? Communism? Holy crap. Are we living in the '50s? And, Pan, I can't believe you'd be willing to take up arms. For what, exactly? This tells me one thing: you believe the American system of government has failed. What do you want in its place? You can borrow from our system in Canada if you would like. Or is that too socialist for you? But, wait....you want to go up against the capitalists it seems. Are you gunning for a socialist revolution? __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

05-04-2009, 08:12 AM	#26 (permalink)
Poppinjay You had me at hello Location: DC/Coastal VA	Baraka, keep in mind when you post Glenn Beck vids, this is an alcoholic who just a few years ago said he couldn't support Lieberman for president because the country would then not be able to form any kind of rational debate with Iran. Within the month, he said he could support Lieberman to be tough on Iran, and had no recollection of ever having said his previous statement. He didn't sound confused over it, he just flat out denied it, and there was a shitstorm on his show about it. He gets press now and then, but he's not saying anything new. He is a long time addict who came up through wakka wakka morning zoo radio and became conservative when he looked at his tax bill (under Reagan, who blamed the democrats). A couple of things to think about, under Clinton the first two years of his administration plummeted in popularity because the economy initially worsened before skyrocketing. So far, under Obama the economy has dumped like a baby on soy and his ratings continue to go up. The American people are not fomenting rebellion. And if there's one thing we learned from the 1992-2000 era, the nut jobs do not own the better guns. The only thing that seriously worries me about this recent concern is that media outside the US really does not get how things operate inside the US. When Clinton was elected, the hue and cry from the right was deafening. People called in death threats non stop to any agency or media outlet that would hear them. Idiots crashed Cessnas into the DC mall, people referred to Hillary and Janet Reno as Butch. That happened from the start. It's been reletively silent this time. __________________ I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

05-04-2009, 08:45 AM	#28 (permalink)
Poppinjay You had me at hello Location: DC/Coastal VA	Not to mention that "Obama and Co" have said NOTHING about taking guns away. Oh, I know, they never say anything about it. Then look what Clinton did? He took away all of our guns! __________________ I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

05-04-2009, 10:49 AM	#33 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	A lot of people are living paycheck to paycheck because they're irresponsible, not because they can't afford the necessities. For evidence of this, one not need look further than the sub-prime fiasco. Most Americans live above their means. If you find a way to rally against these people, please let me know. I'll stand right beside you as you revolt against irresponsible spending.

05-04-2009, 10:55 AM	#34 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	I agree, Willravel. One doesn't need a six-figure income to become a millionaire. Another indicator of wealth is earning ability over time, based on your current age. It's not your net worth only; it's where your net worth could be if you know how money works. Many of us have (or have had) the potential to be millionaires. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

05-04-2009, 11:25 AM	#36 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	you know, this is a bit awkward because it's better that there be some recognition of the obvious fact of the american class structure than the opposite..... but geez pan you act like you just discovered that this is that case and just worked out that it matters in shaping how things have played out. i can't for the life of me figure out what you thought was going on before you woke up. welcome to reality. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

05-04-2009, 11:26 AM	#37 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	The average annual earnings of someone holding an associate's degree in the U.S. is $38,000. It's over $52,000 for a bachelor's degree. Who's making $10 per hour? __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

05-04-2009, 03:06 PM	#39 (permalink)
timalkin Addict Location: watching from the treeline	.. __________________ Trinity: "What do you need?" Neo: "Guns. Lots of guns." -The Matrix Last edited by timalkin; 12-20-2010 at 07:19 PM..