james t kirk

I need some advice from the peanut gallery.

A very good friend of mine just bought (Nov. 18) a 2003 Honda Accord. Car was purchased BRAND NEW from a Honda dealer.

At 3,700 km, the engine quits on her.

Turns out there is no oil, or very little oil in the engine. It either leaked out, burned out, or was never there in the first place.

3,700 km. (Yes, three thousand seven hundred kilometres)

Car had to be towed back to the dealer where they say they can't figure it out. No sign of a leak.

Anyway, they fill up the engine with oil and tell her it's good to go. Just keep an eye on it.

Yeah right.

Anyone who knows cars will know that after about 10 seconds without oil, your bearings start to score.

Anyway, they tell her that if they have to, they will put a new engine in the car for her.

She's not stupid, so she tells them forget it, I want a new car. I just didn't lay out 35 grand for this shit. (Rightfully so.)

She calls me, blah blah blah.

I tell her, look, any car who's engine runs out of oil, the engine is done. Not only that, the car is BRAND NEW. A car with a replacement engine is never worth as much as a car with the original engine (In most cases.) None of us would probably want to buy a car where the engine is not original unless it is really cheap. God only knows if it is a new engine or a 0 time rebuild, whatever for that matter.

Anyway, the dealer gets abusive with her and tells her that they are NOT going to give her a new car. Start giving her the old three on one you're wrong treatment.

Well, she calls a few other people in the trade she knows and they all say the same thing. Get a new car.

I tell her to start keeping a journal, but call up Honda Canada.

She calls Honda Canada today and they tell her to get stuffed, they are not giving her a new car. At most, she will get a "new engine"

Suffice it to say, she is going to take this one to the the mattresses.

My question to the peanut gallery is:

Does anyone out there have any advice?

Any lawyer recommendations?

Any knowledge of government legislation to protect consumers?


I am quite surprised at Honda Canada. I had always thought that Honda was a little more consumer oriented than this crap.

The guy she spoke to at Honda Canada (after going up the food chain) would not identify his last name. (What is that all about??)

Makes you wonder.

Enka

Is there any sort of Better Business Bureau for Canada? Id contact them. They are there for consumers like your friend who get screwed over.

irseg

I agree that a new engine replacement (and a free rental) is in order, but the replacing the whole car is a bit out of line. Why should she expect Honda/the dealer to eat the cost of a $35k car over an engine replacement that's $10k tops? I've never heard of a replacement engine significantly affecting resale value, especially if it's a factory replacement done at the dealer. It's not like the car was wrecked or anything.

james t kirk

Yeah, there is a better business bureau, but they are essentially toothless. All they do is have members, i.e. companies who have paid into the club. The worst that can ever happen is that the better business bureau will take away their memberships.

IRSEG,

The dealer doesn't have to pay a dime, it's Honda that is out and it's no skin off their nose.

As a car hound myself, i can assure you that a nonoriginal engine is a detrement to a resale. If you check out some of the resale ads for such things as classic cars, etc. the ad will always feature "Matching Numbers", i.e. the Serial number of the engine and the car itself match. It's very important to have that indication of originality.

Now i know that your run of the mill accord is not a classic vette, but the concept is the same. The car is not "right" if the engine has been replaced. This will cause many potential buyers of the vehicle to walk away. Myself included. If i was going to buy an accord (used with 2,000 miles on it) and i found out the orginal factory engine in it had blown and the dealer replaced the engine with another one, i would walk away from the seller. I am just not interested.

Plus, swapping engines is not a desireable thing to be doing to a car with 3,700 km on it (roughly 2, 000 miles). Dealer or not.

The idea of laying out 35 grand a few weeks ago in good faith and having the car pop its clock after 2,000 miles is mind boggling. Then to find out that there was no oil in engine for some reason is even more mind boggling.

When you buy a new car, there is an expectation of quality on the part of the purchaser that such major fuck ups are not going to happen.

DEI37

Replacing the car is absurd. To think that you're entitled to one is ludicrous. A new engine...sure, that's reasonable. We've replace 3500 mile old engines in Audi's for a timing belt that jumped, and crashed valves and pistons. We replaced the engine...not the entire car.

__________________
Generally speaking, if you were to get what you really deserve, you might be unpleasantly surprised.

DEI37

Oh, and by the way...a new engine isn't about to hurt the resale on this car. In some cases, it BOOSTS resale, especially in a normal everyday car.

__________________
Generally speaking, if you were to get what you really deserve, you might be unpleasantly surprised.

stingc

I've never heard of anyone checking if the "numbers match" on anything but a classic car. I guarantee an accord will never have that status. Nobody cares with a normal car, and any future buyer probably wouldn't even know if you didn't tell them.

Why would you walk away from a car that had an engine dealer- replaced so early? The only reason that I could think of would be that it could indicate a driver who abuses the car. I really doubt that any amount of abuse could kill a modern engine that quickly though. It would obviously be due to a manufacturing error.

I think that you're due a new engine, but the engine's failure had nothing to do with the rest of the car.

irseg

My thoughts exactly.

Numbers matching on a classic car is one thing, but anyone who would do so on an Accord is a frigging lunatic. Typical Accord buyers don't even know the displacement or cylinder count of their engines, let alone if it's original or not.

Anyway, why did she not notice it sounding like a psychotic typewriter before it died? It's not like you can't hear when an engine is running dry. Oh. "She". Answered my own question.

tritium

I would have to agree. Its not very likely that a future buyer would even *know* that the engine has been replaced and even if they did, there would be documentation to show that the replacement occured at the stealership, under factory guidelines and at X number of miles. I wouldn't sweat the details too much, mate. Be glad the stealership is going to give you the engine -- I've dealt with far worse.

__________________
Blah.

merkerguitars

If its a standard 4 cylinder accord the only spendy thing will be the engine..it will not take alot to change the engine time wise. I would hope a new engine wouldn't cost more than $3k tops....

__________________
Donate now! Ask me How!

Please use the search function it is your friend.

Look at my mustang please feel free to comment!

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=26985

james t kirk

No offense, but some of you guys are missing the point.

The object is to dump the lemon and get another car. It is not unprecidented. There are car companies out there that offer a 30 satisfaction guarantee, etc.

When you lay out big cash for a new car in good faith, you have a certain expectation of quality. It is quite disheartening to have the motor die on you.

The question isn't whether or not she is entitled to exchange the vehicle, the question is, How does one best tackle the issue and force Honda to exchange the vehicle.

You have to think more like a consumer and less like a dealer.

asudevil83

i dont think you are seeing the point of our replies either. if WE as consumers would not feel entitled to a new vehicle from honda, then how are we supposed to support you? i for one feel that honda is doing what they are entitled to do....that is replace the defect. nothing is wrong with the car, except for the engine, and that is what they are offering to replace. afterall, the car is under warranty, and a warranty gives the consumer free replacement of defective parts, not a another brand new car.

i think that demanding a new car is absurd. afterall, everything else is fine with the car.

a warranty is a warranty and honda is honoring its warranty promise. thats about all i can say.

irseg

You obviously don't know what "lemon" means. It's a car that, for whatever reason, has multiple unrelated problems that can't readily be fixed. If the engine dies and the rest of the car is fine, it's not a lemon. It's a car in need of a new engine.

Where would you draw the line? If you bought a car and the radio broke, would you feel entitled to a new car to replace your "lemon"?

phaedrus

Okay, this seems like the most likely problem with the car. When the tech did the PDI (pre-delivery inspection) he forgot to check the oil levels/put oil in the car. When the car arrives at the dealership, it does not have all its fluids compeltely filled, it has something to do with transporting the car. Honda pays for the dealership's techs to fill up the fluids, adjust torque bolts, etc. If the tech forgot to add oil, there would only be small amount of oil in the car. So at 3700 km it crapped out. A big deal? Sure. There is a chance the engine will need to be replaced, but it will be done under warranty, costing your friend nothing. Your friend should be happy with that, that is reasonable.

Replacing the car is absurd. This is not a matter of lemon law (at least in the States, I don't know what the rules are for Canadians) This is a one time problem that is easily fixed.

Snakebyt

i would ask for a new motor, on top of that i would ask for a year or so of free oil changes and checkups. that way if there is a problem like with the first motor, they will be able to catch it early.. maybe

shakran

I agree that replacing the car is ridiculous. If the seat or the door breaks you don't get a new car either. The engine broke. They're willing to give you a new engine. They're fixing what's broken, and they're not trying to pull the usual dealership bullshit of "let's replace a few cheap parts and hope the problem goes away until it's out of warranty." What more do you want? Asking for anything beyond that is pure greed.

Oh and by the way, exactly how in hell did it run for 3700km with no oil without her knowing it? Didn't that big red OIL light tip her off? She could have mitigated the damage if she'd figured out that bright red warning lights indicate a problem.

james t kirk

Actually they did try to pull the old dealer Bullshit on her. They dumped 4 litres into the crank case and told her that it was good to go, "just keep an eye on it."

Americans are way too nice. I say if you can bitch and scream and they give you a new car, good for you. Why not try it. You've got nothing to loose. I hardly see it as abusing Honda in any way. They will just turn around and sell it as a used car. (Would any of you want to buy it. Maybe then they won't even replace the engine, just fill up the oil.)

And look at it this way.......If you were in this situation, which would you rather have? A replacement engine, or a replacement car.

Maybe they could give her a demo with similar kilometres on it. Then fair is fair in my eyes.

I don't own the car. My friend does. I haven't even seen it. It's at the dealer. They apparently can't find the leak, nor is it burning oil.

So that means it left the factory with low oil. It wasn't dry, apparently it had about a half a litre of oil in it. WTF??

And yes, she did pay them to PDI it. A grand to be exact. I WOULD THINK FOR A GRAND YOU COULD CHECK THE OIL LEVEL.

Funny thing about the oil light. She said to them that the oil light didn't come on. Ready for this. They told her it didn't have an oil light.

Well, it does have an oil light. But oil lights only detect low oil pressure, not necessarily low oil levels. Though driving round corners etc should have caused the oil light to come on I know.

I'd be pissed too. You lay out 35 G's for a new car, you don't expect this kind of grief.

But i would have checked my oil long before 3700 km also.

irseg

What is "PDI" and why did she pay a dime for a problem with a car that's under warranty?

Of course if the dealer were to offer me a choice between a new engine and a new car I'd choose the car, but demanding one because of a blown engine is unreasonable. That's like getting a bad meal at a resturant, and demanding that you be reimbursed for 10 times what you paid for the food.

shakran

Actually, that would be REALLY dumb. Demo cars are beat on by customers test driving them and by dealership employees whipping up on a car they don't have to repair. A demo car with 5k on it is like a regular car with at least 15.

DEI37

I doubt she paid them to PDI (Pre-Delivery Inspection) the car. It's a part of the routing process for ALL new cars. If they asked her for money to do a PDI, she got royally hosed, and I'd find a new dealership. Honda most likely pays the techs to do the PDI. I know Nissan does.

__________________
Generally speaking, if you were to get what you really deserve, you might be unpleasantly surprised.

mazak

in my humble opinion,let them put a new engine ,and drive on !!!! also, did anyone read what the warranty covered? i think its pretty good of them to put a new engine not rebuilt or tinkered with but new,and with another warranty! wifes 2003 impala ls,fog lights getting moisture in them, tech caught it at oil change, please bring it back when the others come in. changed free of charge. i see that fog lights and engine are not the same,however its new and they are trying to do whats right.replace a defective part. if you owned a major car company,what would you do,oh lets scrap that one and give them another,how would that work?

MSD

Look up three posts and you'll find your answer

james t kirk

According to her she paid $1,000 for a PDI (pre delivery inspection)

Supposedly, it's on the invoice.

Myself, i have never been a big believer in a PDI for anything figuring that the car should come from the factory ready to roll (which they do). Dealers tack on a PDI like they want to sell to sell you undercoating / scotchgarding / permashine.

I know when i was looking at VW's and Audis a while back they all added a PDI into the quote. I wasn't at the point of buying, but I said to the guy that he could forget PDI, but he disagreed and I let it go.

shakran

well PDI's are becoming more common as a way for a dealership to bilk money out of their customers. They're universally a ripoff (if they do anything, they look at the tires to make sure one isn't flat). Another of my favorite service charges is the dealer prep fee, usually $100 to $300 (USD). In plain english, this is a car wash (no wax). As a general rule of thumb, don't buy anything they try to sell you once they get you in the finance office.

Oh, and 95% of the time when they try to sell you scotchguard/undercoating/etc, it's already been applied to the car at the factory. The dealership's just doubledipping. Say no.

As for the engine, it sounds like the people at this dealership are dumbasses. Honda Canada however is offering her a new engine. I'd take it to a different Honda dealership and let them do the swap.

Peryn

Have her pull out the invoice and check what she paid for the PDI, and what she got. From what i've heard ( at least the the GM dealership my brother works at) a PDI of some sort needs to be done to all the cars. That PDI includes more than just a look-over of the car. There is usually a "final assembly" of sorts on the car. This needs to be done wether or not the customer wants to pay for it. The manufacturer usually pays the dealership for it, and the customer should not have to pay it as well.

But some companies may charge for it, im not sure. If she did, they ought to still have it on file, and request a copy of the completed work order or PDI sheet. Apparently there is a large percentage of people who pay for a PDI, but dont recieve one. This may be the case. ( So remember, if you ever get a new car, request a copy of the completed PDI sheet in the car when its delivered to you). It could be that you need an engine replacement BECAUSE they didn't do it. If they totally neglected to do it at all, they owe you a new engine (under warranty), and i would raise hell to get my money back for that. No reason you should pay for services they didn't provide.

__________________
Dont cry kid, It's not your fault you suck.

DEI37

A PDI is NOT a cost absorbed by the consumer. Cars do NOT come ready to sell straight off of the truck. Some cars have protective plastic on them that has to be pulled off, front license plate brackets for states that require them fluid level check, tire pressure check, and a general once over for loose, or ill-fitting items. Like I said, if they actually got her to pay for one, go find a new dealer that will treat you right.

__________________
Generally speaking, if you were to get what you really deserve, you might be unpleasantly surprised.

Gnzo

No dealer would give her a new car. Most dealers would, however, offer an engine replacement. Many states is the U.S. have lemon laws, but they only last for days and at the most, weeks. This situation would not fall under a lemon law because presumably there is nothing wrong with the car. It is more likely this situation would fall under some sort of dealer negligence, which your friend would only be able to pursue if she were to sue.

What your friend needs to decide is how much money she is willing to pay for a new car. If your friend hires a lawyer (which costs money), it is most likely that the dealership will change it's stance. (although I don't have a vast knowledge of Canadian Law) this would probably not make it to a court. The dealership would probably settle. What that settlement is however, could just be a new engine and a year of free oil changes, as someone said above. Or it could be a new engine and free oil changes for the lifetime of the car or it could be a new car. Unfortunately, the only chance she has of getting a new car is through a lawyer.

SpikeQX99

I don't think it's right to get a new car out of them.. You know what kind of precedence that would set? People would go home after buying the car, drain the oil out and drive like there is no tomorrow and then be back at the dealer saying " I want a new car" Not necessarily a fair thing to do. I don't know how much 35 grand canadian is, but that seems like a lot of cash for an accord. She should be happy with the new engine and keep on movin'.

Just don't refer anyone to that dealership after that.

Greed...It's not just for Americans anymore!!!

__________________
I'm so in love with a girl... she is my everything

timalkin

I worked at a Chrysler dealership as a lot rat for a summer, and they even let ME do PDIs. All we did was take off the plastic and styrofoam off the car, check the fluid levels, push in a fuse, and screw the antennae on. We'd also test drive it to make sure the wheels didn't fall off. It took a total of 10 minutes to do, and you wouldn't even be able to sell a car without doing it.

$1000? I wish I could have seen a percentage of that, heh.

laconic1

I pretty much agree that a new car is out of the question. Honda isn't obligated to replace the vehicle. Honestly, until the engine starts to knock constantly they aren't even obligated to replace the engine. They probably should and will in the name of customer satisfaction before then. Lemon laws come into play only when repeated attempts have been tried and failed to fix a problem that significantly impairs the normal operation of a vehicle. A new engine is reasonable, and she should take it to a different dealer to have the engine done. The dealer that she got it from seems less than reputable. I have done dozens of Pre Delivery Inspections, and they take about an hour. During the PDI all fluid levels are supposed to be checked, all operations of the vehicle should be checked, tire pressures set, install the antenna, make sure everything works, and road test the vehicle before the vehicle is sold. I know a lot of PDI guys tend to be entry level guys who don't know what they are doing and when regular mechanics do them they tend to rush through because they think PDIs are gravy and miss things like that.
Sorry to ramble but to make a long story short, they fucked up the PDI, they should give you a new engine, but not a new car.

phaedrus

Okay, something is wrong here. Maybe it is a Canadian thing, it is possible that they do things differently up there, if it is not something is really wrong.

PDI is pre-delivery inspection. It is included in the destination charge which appears on the MSRP sticker and on the dealership invoice. PDI does not appear as an item on the invoice. Unless things are different in Canada, she either did not see the actual invoice of the car or she is mistaken about it. In the States at least, it is a federal crime for a dealership to misrepresent a vehicles invoice. If she feels particularly vindictive, this may be worth looking into. Though it is unlikely she can provide much evidence.

On the MSRP sticker, the vehicle price is itemized as such:
MSRP: X dollars
Destination charge: $360 (American)
Total vehicle price: X+360 dollars

This may be different in other regions.

The only thing she should have received from the dealership that mentions PDI is a Pre-delivery inspection check list. Filled out and signed by the technician who inspected it and by the sales reprehensive who delivered the car to her. It is just a check list of things the tech is supposed to do before the car can be sold. If you want, I'll see if I can did one up and scan it so you can see what I am talking about. I don't work for Honda anymore, but I might still have one laying around.

If the dealership did charge her an extra $1000 for the PDI, then there is something really sketchy going on and she should probably want to look through all of her paperwork to see if there is any reference to this. She should then contact the Honda Customer Service and complain about it, and the BBB, or whatever consumer advocates are up there.

Spyder_Venom

Okay, some of my POV have been stated but some have not-

You have a new car, with a new engine. The rings have not been seated yet AKA it will burn oil. You don't check your oil for 3700KM, very smart idea to do. On the basis of that alone I can understand why the dealer would say no new motor at all. Warantee dosen't cover stupidity, they are responsbile to figure out why the oil was lost but the damage that was done due to neglect is not thier fault. If they are going to give her a new engine that right there is already above and beyond the call of duty by Honda.

The "original motor" really dosen't apply any more. Numbers don't match from the factory and the day a Accord goes for what a 1969 "numbers matching" chevelle, that is the day I stop tinkering with cars. The truth of the mater is they do have a S/N on the block but they no longer run in consession with the VIN for most auto manufatures.

A new motor -might- lower the resale value of the car, but it might increase it. It all depends on who is buying the car. People have conflicting views on having a new motor in the car. If it gets replaced now and she drives it for 50,000 miles and then she sells the car I don't think there would be any loss in resale. It was a warantee issue, people have those from time to time. If it was a dealer swap into a new motor it would have the least negative effect on resale (if any). As stated, I think a lot of people would take this as a plus.

I still think it is way out of line for them to give her a new car, she should have checked the oil and this never would have happend. If there was a mechaincal failure that she had no control over it might be a little differnt (but I still don't think a new car would be in order) but the fact of the matter is you need to check your oil, esp. with a new motor.

__________________
The local track whore

j8ear

I think she should get nothing. You are reposnsible for checking your oil EVERYTIME you fill up your vehicle. It even usually says so on the gas cap. It definately says so in the owners manual, the maintenance schedule, and the fine print of the warranty.

Cars burn and leak oil. That's why you check the oil levels. If you don't, you are SOL. If you don't know that you should occasionally check your oil, you shouldn't be driving.

I'm getting kind of angry right now, because your friend's stupidity, self-righteousness, and unrealistic expectations (the latter two seen 'enabled' by yourself) WILL result in other reasonable and responsible people who take care of their things having to pay more for products.

Unexceptable.

Car value reductions, unability to pay off the car note....WHO CARES. It should ONLY BE your friends problem.

She deserves NOTHING.

A new car is out of the question, but being offered a new motor, one should be consider lucky. Take the new motor, without complaint and run.

-bear

__________________
It's alot easier to ask for forgiveness then it is to ask for permission.

phaedrus

You're being a bit unreasonable. Honda's warranties generally cover driver stupidity even if the small print claims it doesn't. While I was working for Honda, a kid fucked up his civic twice because he didn't know how to drive (or he was really fucking around) going from 5th gear to 2nd gear when he was trying to shift to 4th to pass someone. Both times the Honda rep let the warranty cover the repairs, costing the kid nothing.

Besides, who checks their oil every time they get gas? I don't. FYI: the gas cap on a 2003 Honda accord doesn't say to, the owner's manual does, I'm not sure about the warranty book. Besides, the tech at the dealership was primarily responsible in that he was supposed to fill the oil and check it and he signed documents claiming he did.

j8ear

I reread my post and think I was a little unreasonable as well.

Sorry bout that ;-)

I do still think that gratitude for the new engine is warranted, and high-minded point proving for a new car is unreasonable.

just my thoughts. Rough day at the office, so I took it out here a bit.

apologies,

-bear

__________________
It's alot easier to ask for forgiveness then it is to ask for permission.

Tiger69z

....Seriously, i think she should be entitled to a new engine, since the current engine is somewhat damaged. In all honesty though, her engine should be alright, as my dad's 5.4L engine once ran for like 10 seconds before i forgot that i didn't put any oil in it...That was two years ago, and the car still runs fine today.

Tell her to stop being unrealistic and get the new engine, if anything it will up the value of the car, cuz it's a "brand new" engine in a 3700km car.

james t kirk

Footnote, the dealer has told her now that the car was missing 3.1 litres of oil.

They have been unable to determine where the oil went. Leak, burn, or never had.

They have done a compression test (so what in my eyes) and have told her that everything is ok and to take the car as is with 3.1 litres of new oil added to the crank case.

Period.

I have given up on her stupidity. I have told her what to do, i.e. document everything in letters to the dealer and Honda Canada.

She has not listened to what i have told her to do so i don't give a fuck anymore. I have better things to do with my time.

By and by, i have been laying under cars since i was 8 years old. I have done frame off restorations, and rebuilt 5 different engines in my time. I am not a mechanic, just love cars.

I don't check my oil every time i fill up.

Oil should not be consumed by an engine that is running properly. It is not reasonable to expect a brand new engine in a brand new car to "lose" 3.1 litres of oil.

Something is wrong and that wrong is on Honda's end of things.

I keep telling her that if any damage occured to the engine, it will have occured at the big end connecting rod bearings, or possibly the lifters. In either case unless they send the oil out for metals analysis by an independent lab, they don't know squat, nor do they care.

But she just doesn't listen. I have even offered to go up there and talk to the dealer with her provided she sits down at the key board and writes a detailed letter to honda canada and one to the dealer. Unless this is documented, it's all just hot air at this point. I have written it off as "not my problem" now.

phaedrus

Seems like the wise choice. Maybe she wanted attention and sympathy from you rather than logical advice.

james t kirk

No, she's a friend of mine and she knows that i know cars.

I never mind helping someone out, but if they don't listen to square one of what i am telling them, then i get frustrated.

mystix

the new engine seems fine, a new car isn't necessary since a new engine will basically be a new car. it is strange that the engine died like that. I've had a 4cyl accord for 6 yrs so far without a single prob