VitaminH

So I have a problem. And where better to turn for advice than the good people of the TFP?

For over 2 years now I've lived with two roommates, one male, one female, and myself, being the second male. I never balked at living with a girl, nor did it seem strange to me. From freshman year of college I was put on a co-ed floor and now 5 years later I'm more or less completely desensitized to living near and with girls. It's just another roommate to me.

Now enter the problem. Roughly 3 months ago I began dating a girl. I like her quite a bit, but her family (and thus her upbringing) is rather conservative. She knew from the start I had one female roommate and it never illicited comment in the past. However, the other male is moving out in about a week, leaving just me and the female until roughly next June. No problem for me, our rent is pretty cheap, and I'm totally used to living with this girl. I mentioned it to my girlfriend a few weeks ago, resulting in a mini freakout. We were with friends and aside from a small discussion right there about her not likeing the idea of me living with a girl alone it sort of fell by the wayside. I thought it was just the initial shock and she'd gotten over it.

Well a week or so it came up again. We had an almost 2 hour phone conversation about it again. Apparently she does not approve at all. I've made it very clear that things are not going to change here anytime soon, as I don't have the time or money to find a new roommate and new apartment, and honestly I wouldn't do that for her at this point anyway. I can't understand why. I keep wanting to discuss it because I know it bothers her, but she seems to want to just try to ignore it. I know all that is going to do is make it sit in her head and fester until it rears its ugly head at some point in the future.

All I can get out of here is essentially that she thinks its morally wrong for males and females to live together, even if they are just friends. It seemed at first that she was worried that something was going to happen between me and my roommate in a romantic sense, especially since we are now alone together. This, is more or less completely ridiculous. Living with this girl is more or less like living with my older sister, or even mother. I told my girl that for me to have a romantic interest in my roommate is like me having a romantic interest in my mother, but that didn't seem to do it. My friends who I have told this to have literally laughed out loud at the even thought of my roommate and I getting together, cause it is completely ridiculous.

She claims she doesn't have a porblem trusting me, and it's not so much that she thinks my roommate and I will hook up so to speak, but more so she just thinks it's wrong. This from the girl who talks about how essentially all her friends are males and only hangs out with males yada yada. I asked her if she'd ever consider living with one of them (pointing out the one or two who are closest to her) and after a minutes consideration she said "no".

Even at the end of our long talk, I still felt as if we'd made no progress, and she's still very bothered by this. She chalks it up to "that's just how I was raised" but that's generally not good enough for me. As a friend of mine pointed out "you need to form your own opinions on these things and not just reguritate your parents' ". I would tend to agree.

I'm at a loss for what to do. I am a firm believer in everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I'm not about to try to change hers. But I also don't know what else to do to help her accept that this is my living situation and that's how it is going to be for almost the next year.

I worry that her seemingly rather conservative values are going to lead to the demise of our relationship.

Whew that was long. Congratulations if you read it all.

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Jesus Pimp

Pack your bags and find another girl. You don't need to deal with this BS.

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maleficent

You're still at the beginning of this relationship, if your living situation is a deal breaker, better to find out now.

Ok, so it's been three months with her, I'm going to nicely ask (in a very nonbusybody sort of way) if she's having sex with you yet, or anything beyond a chaste kiss on the cheek. is that behavior morally acceptable to her.

If the answer is yes, then it's a little hypocritical of her to say that you're living situation is wrong.

If there was a third person living there, would that still be wrong to her?

You can't change a person's values, you can only work within them, as long as they are consistent, the question for yourself is, can you live with the values as they are.

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VitaminH

JP, that is an answer I assumed at least some of you would give. While it certainly hasn't been ruled out if this sort of behavior escelates on her part, this is not enough for me to yet call it quits. I find I really like this girl, and other than this issue, we've gotten along great.

Mal, no, we haven't had sex. Nor do I see it at anytime in the near future. I'm fine with that. There is definitly more going on than a chaste kiss on the cheek however. You make a good point by pointing out some hypocrisy there, it was not something I'd really thought about.

As for a third person, I still think she disapproved, but me now being alone with a girl definitely exacerbated things.

My big worry in all of this is wondering if this is just the tip of the proverbial iceberg or is it an isolated incident. I tend to have opinions skewed a little bit to the left and I fear there may be clashes in the future if she is very right. I don't feel like I am holding back at all with anything, but I am now concerned that she is, and as our relationship progresses and devlops, more stuff like this will come out. Or it may be nothing.

I guess the only thing I could do is ask, but will she be forward about it or downplay it? I was forewarned by a mutual friend she tends to try to ignore things that bother her, and she may hold back, and I can attest from personal experience that getting her to talk about her feelings is like pulling teeth. Guh.

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"Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever."
- Napoleon Bonaparte

maleficent

As someone who generally needs a pair of plieabout of me... I can tell you there are a thousand reason for it (all fo them good and logical in my head) and it requires the right person with the right about of patience... She might be worth it in the long run, it depends on what her reaction will be to you're inability to change your current living situation.

I think that y'all need to find some sort of middle ground where her values arent being sacraficed (and kudos to you for not trying to change her) and you are not being inconvienced. (It honestly sounds like you really don't care so much about your living situation - it's just convenient right now... and when the opportunity presents itself financially and time wise, you'd move in a heartbeat) so the crux of the issue is really her perceived values vs what's best for you

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MooseMan3000

I recommend getting another female roommate.


Well, not quite... but you have to confront this issue. It seems fairly obvious to me that she has some issues that she's not talking about. She's jealous, she's scared, whatever. I don't care what the problem is; the real problem is that she's afraid to talk to you. She needs to get over that if you're going to have any sort of meaningful relationship.

On the other hand, assuming she's not actually jealous... in that case, she just needs to deal with it. You respect her opinions. If she doesn't respect yours, then (as was so bluntly put before), she's not worth your time. One of my best friends is completely conservative politically, and I'm almost totally liberal, and we disagree on almost everything when it comes to politics. But I still respect his opinions. We don't have to think the same way to be friends, but we do have to listen to each other.

So either way... it's about communication. If you can't communicate with a person, you can't get close to them. Period. The communication can take many forms, but it has to be there, no matter what. It doesn't matter what her opinions are; if you can't listen to hers, or if she can't listen to yours, it can't work.

If you really do like this girl, you should invest some energy in trying to foster better communication between you. If she isn't willing to invest that energy as well, if she isn't willing to learn with you... move on.

martinguerre

whatever her cultural influences are...

she is still making a decision about how much she trusts you. and i don't know that i would tolerate a similar situation in my life. i think you need to choose if you're willing to put up with not being trusted (hoping that the situation will improve, i assume). it's worth talking about before you jump ship, but her cultural assumptions are going to be pretty hard to dislodge.

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For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

guthmund

Have you ever given her anything to worry about?

Well, if she can't trust you now....

It's certainly worth a sit down, but not much more.

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VitaminH

ARGH. I just had a whole reply typed up and I hit the middle mouse button on accident, which I've got set to close windows and poof. GONE.

Lets see. First of all, thanks to everyone for your insightful advice! It is definetly helping sort out my thoughts.

The general theme I see here is it's about communication. I must say that is more or less the conclusion I came too as well when I was typing the above posts. It's just going to require more talk.

While I'll say yes I'd move fairly easily, I want to clarify it's not so much to appease this girl as it would be just for a change in my life. I've lived with this girl for over 2 years now, and it'll be 3 before we move out, but frankly I'd welcome a change. We generally get along, but as time has gone on we sort of have gone our seperate ways and live kind of different lives now.

MooseMan is correct in saying that she's not jealous. That was admittidly the conclusion I wanted to jump too as well when I first found out she disapproved, however after our first long talk about it, it seemed that was not so much the case. She was more along the lines of she just doesn't think (morally I guess?) that a male and female should live together, even on just friendly terms, excepting if they're married. I would guess you are also correct in saying that she's just going to have to deal with it. It's most definitely not going to change until I finish school next May.

I guess there's not much to do except try to talk to her about it again. Like I said before, she generally just likes to avoid topics like that and tries to ignore things that bother her rather than discussing them, but I don't want it to fester and come out in a much worse way later.

This is good advice. I'm a firm believer in everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I sure don't like it if they try to shove their opinion down my throat. I guess her not liking my living situation I can deal with, but if she told me I had to move, then to the headsman I say.

Anyways keep the thoughts and opinions coming, it's really helping.

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"Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever."
- Napoleon Bonaparte

tooth

No matter what she tells you the reason is, it is going to boil down to her not wanting you to be with another girl. Call it jealousy, call it mis-trust. But it all boils down to the same thing. She says that it is "wrong". Why is it "wrong"? What are her reasons that it is wrong? Keep drilling down until you get to that root of the issue. I'll bet it has to do with her thinking that something has happened, is happening, or will happen between you and your roommate.

maleficent

I don't think it's jealousy or mistrust, she was probably raised with the mindset that men and women should not cohabitate without benefit of clergy...

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tooth

...and my question is why? Why is that frowned upon? Just because????
No. There is a reason it's considered wrong. What is it???


I'm saying that it's because she thinks they might see each other naked or might get it on. Jealousy and mistrust.

Jesus Pimp

They believe that an unmarried man and woman in the same room or living quarters will lead to sexual temptations.

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maleficent

exactly - temptation is what caused adam and eve's banishment from the garden of eden... temptation is something that should be avoided.

i would consider it different than mistrust or jealousy. both mistrust and jealousy are pretty superficial emotions, tempation gets to the core of a person's character. It's like saying, i trust you completely, but why would you put yourself in a position that could quite possibly lead to trouble.

when people cheat, with few exceptions, it's not something that they intended to go out and do, it just happened they gave into temptation.

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tooth

Nope. Acting on the temptation is what got them banished.

That is not complete trust. Not saying its right or wrong, but call it what it is.

So the root issue is that she thinks something might happen?



I'm not saying that the girlfriend's feelings are wrong here. But she needs to understand why she thinks it is wrong for Vitamin_H to keep up his current arrangements. Then they can work on a solution to the problem.

maleficent

I'm honestly not defending her position, I just know people who beleive it to be true (my mother being one of them who said many prayers for my immortal soul for when i lived with two guys (I'm way too much of a slob and way too intolerant of girlie behavior to ever live with women)

In a perfect world, she should accept his living arrangement, and trust him to do the right thing, however, words are easy to say. It's often difficult to change one's beleifs overnight... Maybe when VitaminH proves himself to be a faithful kinda guy, it will change her opinion.. .but for now, she can only go by what she's been told to believe.

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martinguerre

as far as temptation goes...i think the key to it is having some level of self-knowledge. If being in a situation is too much, and will likely cause problems, especially if it's caused problems in the past...that's temptation.

but trying to avoid those positions cen get absurd. there's a pretty strong wing of the evangelic movement that considers even a kiss before marriage an invitation to sin, and a compromise of the purity of marriage. one of the reasons given is that it leads men on. i'm sorry, but it is not an irresistable temptation to kiss someone...we don't have little switches that destroy our capacity to reason at the first sign of sexuality.

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For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

Pragma

Coming into this thread a little late, I'll just second (third?) the general concensus: she's going to have to trust you to do the right thing on this one - which is to make sure nothing happens. It may be a leap of faith for her to do it, but there isn't really an alternative (short of leaving you) that's at all feasible.

Hopefully she'll lighten up about it - maybe after a few weeks she'll get more used to the idea.

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VitaminH

This almost exact thought ran through my mind the other day when I was discussing the issue with a friend. I honestly thing she doesn't know why she feels that way, only that she was told to feel that way by parents, clergy, whoever and therefore does. That may be the thing that worries me the most about what future she and I have. As I've said before I'm a firm believer in that everyone is entitled to their own opinions, however I don't know if she herself has reasoned out that this is wrong or not. I want her to form her own opinion on the matter, not regurgitate someone else's.

This is entirely possible. I can tell you that I'm really only the second guy she's gotten into anything serious with, and the first one she dated was in high shcool and he ended up sleeping with several other girls because she wasn't ready for sex yet. She was defintly hurt pretty badly by that and I have to suspect that at least part of her disapproval here stems from that. I currently live roughly 150 miles away, and only get to see her on weekends, and on top of that here I am so far away, living with some other girl. I suppose when you put it like that it may not be the most ideal situation.

She did try to turn it around on me the other day (granted, it backfired) and said "well would YOU like it if I just moved in with some guy friend of mine???" To which I replied it was fine with me if that's what she wanted to do.

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"Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever."
- Napoleon Bonaparte

analog

You've only been with her for 3 months, right? Unless you've already pledged your eternal soul to her, are already engaged or contemplating marriage in ANY way, reconcile yourself to the simple fact that LOTS of relationships do not work out, for no fault other than differences in ideals.

Though this may seem to be "the one thing" that is so bad in your relationship as to cause it to break, this is an issue of trust. All notions of upbringing aside (and this has been said by several, i'll say it again), this is simply about trust. If her trust in you is so easily lost- not even weakened, but destroyed by a totally unquestionable ultimatum- then you have very little or no chance of it surviving in the future.

It's not that big a deal. You don't have a house together, marriage, 3 kids and a dog named Shep- you have a 3-month girlfriend. Let her go, rip the band-aid off (be blunt, don't let her try and stop you, walk away clean), and it rest. I've tried to let girls go easily, it doesn't really work. You only, in the long run, cause them more pain. 3 or 4 months is nothing... wait until you get the one that sets you floating. If this girl doesn't already make you float, she should even be in the running.

Sultana

You know, when I was engaged to my Now-hubby, for a while he had a female roomie too. Back then I was very conservative and attending a religious college, and wasn't thrilled with the idea (I will admit I was insecure and jealous--back then. Hey! I was young...). But after I met the lady, it was all fine. I could plainly see she just wanted affordable housing, and that it would likely be less enjoyable for her to be living with 2 guys (lol!), etc. We became friends, and that was simply that.

LOL, I just thought of a solution: You could offer to marry your roomie...

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StanT

From the age of 18, when I moved out of my parents house, to 24, when I moved in with my wife, I always had female roommates. Since I had the living arrangement prior to dating my wife, she would have gotten a big WTF for questioning it.

My take would be that she's entitled to an opinion on your future living arrangements, she really isn't entitled to question the existing one.

abaya

Yep, I totally understand where this girl is coming from, because I used to think that way too. I spent 10 years as an evangelical, and it has taken YEARS to get it out from under my skin. Will she change? Maybe. I have, slowly. Should you date her expecting her to change? For your own health, I say no. But that's your own decision.

There's a lot of truth here. Can you convince her that you are above temptation? (Should you need to?) Personally, I think that if you've been living with this girl for two years, you're already above suspicion. If you just suddenly moved in with someone, and you had a history with the other girl, then there's reason for your gf to be hesitant. But to me, it sounds like she has her own baggage attached to this stuff, and that she has a different understanding of temptation than you do. Which is problematic.

/hopes something was helpful there...

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abaya

Okay, StanT summed up what I was rambling on about...

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And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Charlatan

From the time I moved out of my house at the age of 18 until I moved in with my girlfriend, now wife, I've had women as roommates (with the exception of a 6 month period before my girlfriend moved in where I shared my apartment with a guy).

It was *never* a problem of temptation. They were my roommates not my bed mates. What is next? You can't be friends and hang out with any other women as well?

As for men and women living together being "improper"... this is such a red-herring.

The only thing this really boils down to is trust. Does she trust you? If not, you should break it off now because it's only going to get worse.

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Sage

Personally, what I'm not getting is the fact that she seems to be all up ons some religion, whereas you have a much, much more laid back attitude. Now, isn't there somewhere in the Bible where you're not supposed to be "unequally yoked?" I think that her religion will be a much much bigger factor in deciding the happiness of your relationship in the long term than you having a female roommate. I, personally, would suggest you find a woman who shares as many of your passions as possible- AND your mindset at looking at life. This chick definitely doesn't sound like that.

And I really liked the part about offering to marry the roommate....

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Daniel_

What would she feel if you got a gay roomie?

Or a person from a different racial group or religion?

Seems that if she trusted you with a chaperon, but now he's gone she doesn't, that she's got serious issues that you're going to be banging your roomie.

Not cool.

Especially if you ARE banging your roomie

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Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
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hossified

dude...she sounds like a headcase......and after only 3 months....sounds like wayy to much problems and troubles for the future! I'd say get out while you can.....because it doesn't sound like you've been raised in the same beliefs / values she has....and its going to be a constant struggle with this chick. The only chance you have is if she changes.....and you can't bet on that one!

soundmotor

Yeah, that never happens.

kangaeru

Dude,

Tell this chick to take a hike. Seriously...you're not going to enjoy spending your time with someone so uptight. That is one of my number one deal breakers...if you're not fun, you're not the one.

BUH BYE

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