life - or something to that effect.... - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

cierah · 04-16-2005, 09:23 AM

I, for some unknown, reason feel a desire to share my personal story will all you wise ones. I am not very articulate with things like this therefore, bear with me. I've also never written any of this shit down before so forgive me if I post it for a few minutes, hours or days and then remove it.

To start: My history with my brother can pretty much be summed up by the narrative of two seperate occasions. The first was August 17th. My family was one of our our annual camping trips. Somehow (I never remember how) my brother got into a fight with my parents. When I say fight I mean axe weilding fight. I could not have been more than 15 or 16 at the time. It was late at night and there was a huge mother of a lightning storm occuring. My sisters (both younger than me) were scared and so was I. I have no concept of time but when it was over my mother abonded us to take my brother to the hospital. He was having a hard time breathing which probably had nothing to do with the fact that he had just been threatening dad with an axe and generally been in a huge physical fight (note the sarcasm). I just feel as though that decision - her taking him to the hospital when we were all really afraid and upset just sums up the relationship. Basically, that no matter what had happened my brother would always be forgiven and loved while I would be abandoned. I know that's a childish feeling to have but it's mine and I own it.

The second major occurance happened when I was in my last year of highschool. One night, of by this time, semi-regular fighting between my parents and my brother, the fighting apparently got bad enough for one of my parents to call the cops. They, I guess, arrested him. Anyways, the point is that when I woke up the next morning Dad told me that they had arrested my brother. I was like 'fine. good'. Yeah. The fighting was obviously loud enough to wake and upset my sisters. Dad said that after it was pretty much over he went around to everyone's rooms and asked them if they were okay. He said that I was flat on my stomach snoring up a storm. I did not even wake up. I did not know that anything was happening until the next morning. I thanked God with all my being that I did not have to be witness and remember that. I think it was God's way of protecting me but apparently he couldn't protect me from the choices of my mother.
My brother got out of jail and came back home. I don't remember how long it was until the next fight, or the next time that the cops were called, or the next time I was afraid. I do remeber waiting on the phone with the police while my brother was fighting with my dad and mother was repeatidly saying 'Stop it! We love you, {brother's name}.' The cops came and left and my brother remained and my mother's love for him remained.

When I write this it doesn't seem so bad (b/c a lot of ppl have a lot worse that I did) but there was a lot of shit going down in that house and it had a {negative} effect on me. I guess my brother is doing okay now. He's got a job and is supposedly going back to school in the fall. I don't know. That makes me angry because I don't feel as though he has the right to be okay. He fucked with my head and I'm obviously not okay so why should he be? I haven't talked to him in almost three years. I sorta regret that because I am supposed to have a brother but I don't. I don't think I regret it enough to actually talk to him because that would mean putting myself back in that situation which I am sure that I don't want to do.

That brings me to my question, wise ones. I think I want to forgive him but I don't want to put myself in a situation in which I can get hurt (mentally or physically) and therefore do not want to be his friend but do you alls think I should give him a second chance? (well if I was counting it'd be closer to a 30th chance or something but the idea is there...) That is really a stupid question for regardless of what you say I won't - I can not give him another chance. My soul could not bear it. It really could not. So, the real question is perhaps - is my hatred justified? But even that... I know hatred eats away at the soul until you are just as bitter and empty as them, or even more so. So life long hatred is not the answer. So the question? How do I forgive him and yet continue protecting myself? I guess that is the question.

ratbastid · 04-16-2005, 10:43 AM

Sure, your feelings are justified. That doesn't mean you have to honor them.

What are you committed to with your brother? What do you want to create with him?

So often we find ourselves expecting the future to be just like the past. We blind ourselves to the fact that the future hasn't happened yet. And WE have something to say about how it goes. But mostly we steer the car of our lives by looking in the rear-view mirror.

Pay more attention to the future than the past, that's the bottom line.

william · 04-16-2005, 01:20 PM

Sad story. I grew up fighting w/my brother, but we grew past that. Your's is a different story. Should you forgive him? Can you? Honestly - only you can answer that, and it's a tough call. Now I'm a Scorpio who forgives NO ONE; but HE IS family. The one true honest question that you need to ask is this - will he continue being the person he was? If so (and this may hurt), cut him loose. If he treated your parents that way, he'll treat you the same. Will he change? Let him prove it. Another thing Scorpios hold true is FAMILY. He says he has (or will) changed - make him prove it. This is someone who beat your parents for years. If he's changed for the better, it's safer to make him prove it. If he hasn't (or won't) changed, cut him loose. Harsh, maybe. But the sooner you do that, the safer you'll be.

ngdawg · 04-16-2005, 01:38 PM

You can forgive and let go as well. There is no need to have contact. He needs to make amends for all he's done to tear the family apart.
Hatred does nothing to the person holding on to it except fester. If he can not find the courage to apologize for his past doings, accept that he is a weak man, turn your back and do the best you can with your own life.
Good luck.

Carno · 04-16-2005, 03:19 PM

Forgiving him does not mean you have to become best friends overnight; it does not mean you are making yourself vulnerable.

Just think of forgiving him as doing it for yourself. You will feel a lot better when you let go of the hate you hold for him. Doesn't mean you have to like him or talk to him at all.

What do you think your parents should have done with him? Stopped loving him? People make mistakes and chances are he feels bad about what happened when yall were younger. In any case, you will be doing yourself a favor by giving up the hatred. You're only harming yourself by holding on to it. Deep down you may want to hold on to it and get back at him; make him feel what you felt, but that will accomplish nothing. You are only harming yourself by holding onto those feelings.

Seeker · 04-16-2005, 05:59 PM

I'm not sure that 'forgiving' is the thing you need to do. By the sound of it you need to 'accept' that that was how he was, and that was how your parents chose to deal with it. Once there is acceptance it will be easier to define yourself in your life. This will enable you to protect yourself from these things that you don't agree with.

If nothing else, you have experienced and defined what you do not want in your life, take strength from that.

cierah · 04-17-2005, 07:52 PM

Hey. Thanks everyone for reading and replying. There are probably a 1001 reasons why I should never have posted this on here but I am glad that I did. I knew everything you guys are saying but sometimes it is nice to have it reiterated to you.
As for the type of relationship I want to have with my brother... all I want is to be in the same room, building, hell even city as him and not be afraid. I mean he's my brother!
What I think my parents should have done? The only thing I wish is that my mother loved me with one tiny bit of the love, patience, and forgiveness that she has for him.
But I think this sums it up perfectly:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seeker

If nothing else, you have experienced and defined what you do not want in your life, take strength from that.

Thanks again all. I love this place! Peace.

Demeter · 04-17-2005, 08:32 PM

It may help to address your frustration to your parents. Do they realize you & your siblings were starved for attention while he played out his drama? You would be surprised at how much better you may feel to hear your parents apologize.
I had some issues with my mom from when I was young. She was an old-fashioned lady who didn't believe in upsetting the family with the truth when bad things happened.
For example, I had to finally tell her that finding out that my father had a heart attack from a schoolmate could not have been better than hearing it from her. She had never realized how these things kept us from learning to deal with life. It took me long time to learn to be confident in my decision making as an adult.
Just getting it off my chest helped. I just hope she harbors no guilt from this, I know she did the best she knew how.
Realize your parents would have never have intetionally let you feel the way you did. And don't let the anger for your brother eat you up. (I have issues with my older brother too, we are barely polite to each other, but I know the tension is hard on other family members.)
Man, its amazing what baggage we carry through our lives.

cierah · 04-18-2005, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Demeter

It may help to address your frustration to your parents. Do they realize you & your siblings were starved for attention while he played out his drama? You would be surprised at how much better you may feel to hear your parents apologize.

There is no way in hell that I could ever talk rationally with mother about this. That is suicide. I am pretty sure she knows at any rate because I think she feels the same way about her brother. It's a nice thought - being able to have a rational conversation with your mother - but one that is unatainable for my dysfunctional family....

Supple Cow · 04-18-2005, 09:48 PM

Maybe one day you will be able to tell her. When I was in high school, my brother had a heroin problem and I told him all kinds of mean things when I found out. It hurt me a lot that he never wanted to be close to me in the ensuing years, but I never knew how much I had hurt him with what I said. He finally told me on Christmas last year. I was very surprised and relieved to find out that he had been thinking about it and we were able to have somewhat of a breakthrough, even though he is still the brother with whom I have a "special drama" as I like to call it. I hope that one day you are able to express to your mother the ways that she has hurt you without inducing irrational behavior from her (or being irrational yourself). But you'll know when that day comes, and it sounds like you know that today is not quite that day.

As for your brother... well, special drama lives forever. It's all about baby steps.

Master_Shake · 04-19-2005, 10:24 AM

Relatives are just people. If your brother causes you more pain than not then feel free to write him off. Don't let society tell you what role to fit into, if you're this uncomfortable and angry it's not worth it. Sharing his DNA doesn't make him special. What benefit are you going to receive by forgiving or accepting your brother? Balance that with how much pain he's likely to cause you. That's not being selfish, it's just being reasonable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

So often we find ourselves expecting the future to be just like the past. We blind ourselves to the fact that the future hasn't happened yet. And WE have something to say about how it goes. But mostly we steer the car of our lives by looking in the rear-view mirror.

Certainly it's true that the future hasn't happened yet, but what else can we use to predict the likely outcomes if not our past experiences? Life is too short to waste on nasty people, give them a couple of chances and then move on.

04-19-2005, 01:02 PM

I'd be careful about writing people off too quickly, but I'm also interested to hear what these fights were all about? What were the issues between your brother and your parents that caused him to flare up like that?

You know, every one is just trying to get by, and if your brother had a difficult time of it, that's a shame. If he upset you and your sisters, then that too is a shame. Understand why he did those things, from his point of view, and that should help make it easier to forgive him for simply being human. If you understand why he's like that, you should be better able to help him in the times he needs it (i.e. when he's about to get in a fight)

Johnny Rotten · 04-19-2005, 08:57 PM

In order to forgive him, he has to be repentant and ask for forgiveness himself. Even compassion must bend to the laws of the conscience. It could be that he has no idea how much damage he's done, and the only way may be to tell him yourself. Following this, he still may not be repentant. He may even be defiant.

If he does ask for the forgiveness you sound like you intend to grant him, I would recommend maintaining your distance, regardless. Some people are so broken by events in their lives that they can only allow you to reach closure. And he sounds like he's in a very bad way, fundamentally. Good luck.

Demeter · 04-20-2005, 04:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cierah

There is no way in hell that I could ever talk rationally with mother about this. That is suicide. I am pretty sure she knows at any rate because I think she feels the same way about her brother. It's a nice thought - being able to have a rational conversation with your mother - but one that is unatainable for my dysfunctional family....

You shouldn't have to make excuses for people's behavior. This is what your mother did with your brother.
If you cannot discuss things rationally with your Mom, I would say you may want to seek some counselling, with or without her. This sounds like pretty damaging stuff. You need someone to help you see through all of this, or the drama will eat you alive.
You may find that just for your sanity you may need to sever ties with them. Or you can work with them on this. Or you can let them take you along on this rollercoaster ride. Some people thrive on this kind of emotional upheaval.
Sorry to sound blunt...

cierah · 04-20-2005, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zen_tom

What were the issues between your brother and your parents that caused him to flare up like that?

I'm sorry but this may sound like I'm an immature or being childish but ... this has always been about HIM and I'm sorta sick of it. It does not matter to me what his issues were because, (obviously I did not make this clear in the original post) but he got in AXE WIELDING fights. These were serious physical altercations. There is no issue on this earth that requires that kind of action.

This IS pretty damaging stuff but couselling seems a little beyond where I am willing to go with this. I have been distancing myself from mother's emotional rollarcoaster and will, I am sure, eventually stop talking to her. The only thing that is stopping me from cutting all ties is this childish hope that things will change and the knowledge that the fight that ends it will be horrible. I just can't take that fight at this point. That fight is going to be hell.
Thanks again everyone for your thoughts...

05-23-2005, 08:05 AM

You did make it clear - and an axe wielding fight requires an issue. To say that it's not important skates over the underlying problem and focuses on the behaviour. In a family that does have issues, but which chooses to ignore them, sometimes the only way to communicate that there is a problem is to turn up the volume control of your actions and emotions, and this can lead to axe wielding fights every now and then.

Yes I understand that it would have been very disturbing and scary and worrying for all of you, but trying to understand why they happened, cooly and rationally, and unemotionally, is the first step to getting over what happened and to begin repairing the problems in your family.

Counselling is the process of coming to an understanding of yourself and those around you, in order to get a better perspective of episodes that have occured in your life without them being clouded by overtly negative emotions. It's not for 'crazy people' at all.

I'm sorry I didn't respond to this sooner (I looked up the thread from your new counselling post) but I do care and am interested in how this turns out.

04-16-2005, 09:23 AM	#1 (permalink)
cierah Crazy Location: Canada	life - or something to that effect.... I, for some unknown, reason feel a desire to share my personal story will all you wise ones. I am not very articulate with things like this therefore, bear with me. I've also never written any of this shit down before so forgive me if I post it for a few minutes, hours or days and then remove it. To start: My history with my brother can pretty much be summed up by the narrative of two seperate occasions. The first was August 17th. My family was one of our our annual camping trips. Somehow (I never remember how) my brother got into a fight with my parents. When I say fight I mean axe weilding fight. I could not have been more than 15 or 16 at the time. It was late at night and there was a huge mother of a lightning storm occuring. My sisters (both younger than me) were scared and so was I. I have no concept of time but when it was over my mother abonded us to take my brother to the hospital. He was having a hard time breathing which probably had nothing to do with the fact that he had just been threatening dad with an axe and generally been in a huge physical fight (note the sarcasm). I just feel as though that decision - her taking him to the hospital when we were all really afraid and upset just sums up the relationship. Basically, that no matter what had happened my brother would always be forgiven and loved while I would be abandoned. I know that's a childish feeling to have but it's mine and I own it. The second major occurance happened when I was in my last year of highschool. One night, of by this time, semi-regular fighting between my parents and my brother, the fighting apparently got bad enough for one of my parents to call the cops. They, I guess, arrested him. Anyways, the point is that when I woke up the next morning Dad told me that they had arrested my brother. I was like 'fine. good'. Yeah. The fighting was obviously loud enough to wake and upset my sisters. Dad said that after it was pretty much over he went around to everyone's rooms and asked them if they were okay. He said that I was flat on my stomach snoring up a storm. I did not even wake up. I did not know that anything was happening until the next morning. I thanked God with all my being that I did not have to be witness and remember that. I think it was God's way of protecting me but apparently he couldn't protect me from the choices of my mother. My brother got out of jail and came back home. I don't remember how long it was until the next fight, or the next time that the cops were called, or the next time I was afraid. I do remeber waiting on the phone with the police while my brother was fighting with my dad and mother was repeatidly saying 'Stop it! We love you, {brother's name}.' The cops came and left and my brother remained and my mother's love for him remained. When I write this it doesn't seem so bad (b/c a lot of ppl have a lot worse that I did) but there was a lot of shit going down in that house and it had a {negative} effect on me. I guess my brother is doing okay now. He's got a job and is supposedly going back to school in the fall. I don't know. That makes me angry because I don't feel as though he has the right to be okay. He fucked with my head and I'm obviously not okay so why should he be? I haven't talked to him in almost three years. I sorta regret that because I am supposed to have a brother but I don't. I don't think I regret it enough to actually talk to him because that would mean putting myself back in that situation which I am sure that I don't want to do. That brings me to my question, wise ones. I think I want to forgive him but I don't want to put myself in a situation in which I can get hurt (mentally or physically) and therefore do not want to be his friend but do you alls think I should give him a second chance? (well if I was counting it'd be closer to a 30th chance or something but the idea is there...) That is really a stupid question for regardless of what you say I won't - I can not give him another chance. My soul could not bear it. It really could not. So, the real question is perhaps - is my hatred justified? But even that... I know hatred eats away at the soul until you are just as bitter and empty as them, or even more so. So life long hatred is not the answer. So the question? How do I forgive him and yet continue protecting myself? I guess that is the question. __________________ "You can close your eyes to reality but not to memories" -Stainslaw J. Lec

04-16-2005, 05:59 PM	#6 (permalink)
Seeker Getting Clearer Location: with spirit	I'm not sure that 'forgiving' is the thing you need to do. By the sound of it you need to 'accept' that that was how he was, and that was how your parents chose to deal with it. Once there is acceptance it will be easier to define yourself in your life. This will enable you to protect yourself from these things that you don't agree with. If nothing else, you have experienced and defined what you do not want in your life, take strength from that. __________________ *To those who wander but who are not lost...* ~ Knowledge is not something you acquire, it is something you open yourself to.

04-17-2005, 08:32 PM	#8 (permalink)
Demeter Psycho	It may help to address your frustration to your parents. Do they realize you & your siblings were starved for attention while he played out his drama? You would be surprised at how much better you may feel to hear your parents apologize. I had some issues with my mom from when I was young. She was an old-fashioned lady who didn't believe in upsetting the family with the truth when bad things happened. For example, I had to finally tell her that finding out that my father had a heart attack from a schoolmate could not have been better than hearing it from her. She had never realized how these things kept us from learning to deal with life. It took me long time to learn to be confident in my decision making as an adult. Just getting it off my chest helped. I just hope she harbors no guilt from this, I know she did the best she knew how. Realize your parents would have never have intetionally let you feel the way you did. And don't let the anger for your brother eat you up. (I have issues with my older brother too, we are barely polite to each other, but I know the tension is hard on other family members.) Man, its amazing what baggage we carry through our lives. __________________ I am not bound to please thee with my answers. William Shakespeare

04-18-2005, 09:48 PM	#10 (permalink)
Supple Cow Americow, the Beautiful Location: Washington, D.C.	Maybe one day you will be able to tell her. When I was in high school, my brother had a heroin problem and I told him all kinds of mean things when I found out. It hurt me a lot that he never wanted to be close to me in the ensuing years, but I never knew how much I had hurt him with what I said. He finally told me on Christmas last year. I was very surprised and relieved to find out that he had been thinking about it and we were able to have somewhat of a breakthrough, even though he is still the brother with whom I have a "special drama" as I like to call it. I hope that one day you are able to express to your mother the ways that she has hurt you without inducing irrational behavior from her (or being irrational yourself). But you'll know when that day comes, and it sounds like you know that today is not quite that day. As for your brother... well, special drama lives forever. It's all about baby steps. __________________ "I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. Twenty-six times I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed." (Michael Jordan)

04-19-2005, 08:57 PM	#13 (permalink)
Johnny Rotten lost and found Location: Berkeley	In order to forgive him, he has to be repentant and ask for forgiveness himself. Even compassion must bend to the laws of the conscience. It could be that he has no idea how much damage he's done, and the only way may be to tell him yourself. Following this, he still may not be repentant. He may even be defiant. If he does ask for the forgiveness you sound like you intend to grant him, I would recommend maintaining your distance, regardless. Some people are so broken by events in their lives that they can only allow you to reach closure. And he sounds like he's in a very bad way, fundamentally. Good luck. __________________ "The idea that money doesn't buy you happiness is a lie put about by the rich, to stop the poor from killing them." -- Michael Caine

04-16-2005, 10:43 AM	#2 (permalink)
ratbastid Darth Papa Location: Yonder	Sure, your feelings are justified. That doesn't mean you have to honor them. What are you committed to with your brother? What do you want to create with him? So often we find ourselves expecting the future to be just like the past. We blind ourselves to the fact that the future hasn't happened yet. And WE have something to say about how it goes. But mostly we steer the car of our lives by looking in the rear-view mirror. Pay more attention to the future than the past, that's the bottom line.

04-16-2005, 01:20 PM	#3 (permalink)
william Psycho	Sad story. I grew up fighting w/my brother, but we grew past that. Your's is a different story. Should you forgive him? Can you? Honestly - only you can answer that, and it's a tough call. Now I'm a Scorpio who forgives NO ONE; but HE IS family. The one true honest question that you need to ask is this - will he continue being the person he was? If so (and this may hurt), cut him loose. If he treated your parents that way, he'll treat you the same. Will he change? Let him prove it. Another thing Scorpios hold true is FAMILY. He says he has (or will) changed - make him prove it. This is someone who beat your parents for years. If he's changed for the better, it's safer to make him prove it. If he hasn't (or won't) changed, cut him loose. Harsh, maybe. But the sooner you do that, the safer you'll be.

04-16-2005, 01:38 PM	#4 (permalink)
ngdawg peekaboo Location: on the back, bitch	You can forgive and let go as well. There is no need to have contact. He needs to make amends for all he's done to tear the family apart. Hatred does nothing to the person holding on to it except fester. If he can not find the courage to apologize for his past doings, accept that he is a weak man, turn your back and do the best you can with your own life. Good luck.

04-16-2005, 03:19 PM	#5 (permalink)
Carno Junkie	Forgiving him does not mean you have to become best friends overnight; it does not mean you are making yourself vulnerable. Just think of forgiving him as doing it for yourself. You will feel a lot better when you let go of the hate you hold for him. Doesn't mean you have to like him or talk to him at all. What do you think your parents should have done with him? Stopped loving him? People make mistakes and chances are he feels bad about what happened when yall were younger. In any case, you will be doing yourself a favor by giving up the hatred. You're only harming yourself by holding on to it. Deep down you may want to hold on to it and get back at him; make him feel what you felt, but that will accomplish nothing. You are only harming yourself by holding onto those feelings.

04-19-2005, 01:02 PM	#12 (permalink)
zen_tom Guest	I'd be careful about writing people off too quickly, but I'm also interested to hear what these fights were all about? What were the issues between your brother and your parents that caused him to flare up like that? You know, every one is just trying to get by, and if your brother had a difficult time of it, that's a shame. If he upset you and your sisters, then that too is a shame. Understand why he did those things, from his point of view, and that should help make it easier to forgive him for simply being human. If you understand why he's like that, you should be better able to help him in the times he needs it (i.e. when he's about to get in a fight)

05-23-2005, 08:05 AM	#16 (permalink)
zen_tom Guest	You did make it clear - and an axe wielding fight requires an issue. To say that it's not important skates over the underlying problem and focuses on the behaviour. In a family that does have issues, but which chooses to ignore them, sometimes the only way to communicate that there is a problem is to turn up the volume control of your actions and emotions, and this can lead to axe wielding fights every now and then. Yes I understand that it would have been very disturbing and scary and worrying for all of you, but trying to understand why they happened, cooly and rationally, and unemotionally, is the first step to getting over what happened and to begin repairing the problems in your family. Counselling is the process of coming to an understanding of yourself and those around you, in order to get a better perspective of episodes that have occured in your life without them being clouded by overtly negative emotions. It's not for 'crazy people' at all. I'm sorry I didn't respond to this sooner (I looked up the thread from your new counselling post) but I do care and am interested in how this turns out.