Zeraph

pan6467 made me think to start this thread (and I hope he comments).

Losing your mind?

Immense psychological pain?

Immense physical pain?

To protect one's country? This one might seem odd but I'm trying to cover all the bases. And I'm sure CIA agents must face this occasionally. If they know they can't take torture, and will be tortured for information, should they commit suicide if possible?

Paralyzed? Legs? All limbs?

Being a burden on one's family?

How much should age factor into this?

Protesting terrible atrocities? (think when those monks burned themselves to death, food strikes...)

I think suicide can be acceptable in all its forms. I believe its up to the individual and that they shouldn't be worried about their family if they are in that much pain. They need to live, or die, for themselves. Not for others.

My only caveat is age. You need to be at least 20 or so if its psychological pain. Too many hormones going on then that can cause it as a teenager and all you need to do is wait a few more years to grow out of it.

levite

I don't hold with suicide in protest. I don't hold with suicide because of "not wanting to be a burden" to one's family, since quite frequently that is a decision made without consultation with the family, who, in the event, it usually turns out would much rather have been burdened, and not had to suffer through the person's suicide.

In general, I don't hold with suicide as a response to psychological pain, because most of the time, that pain can be alleviated with therapy, self-work, time and experience, and sometimes medication.

I probably wouldn't support suicide as a response to physical pain unless it were permanent pain, from which no medication, drug, therapy, or pain control technique could free one. Then I would support the right of such a person to suicide, unilaterally.

I wouldn't necessarily advocate suicide as a response to paralysis, but I guess I could understand it. I expect it would depend a lot on the person and the situation.

I don't know how often people really get put into positions where suicide is a way to avoid capture/torture/treason, but I suppose that if such conditions occurred, suicide might be a reasonable response.

To my mind there are pretty much only two immediately unproblematic reasons for suicide: suffering from an incurable degenerative disease that is in, or is about to be in, an advanced stage; suffering from an incurable disease of mental degeneration or progressive dementia.

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Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

Zeraph

Isn't the human race guilty of this?

genuinegirly

My gut reaction is to think about the pain inflicted on family and friends with a suicide. It really messes with the people that they leave behind, in a horrible life-altering way. My first thought when I saw the title of the thread was, suicide can be acceptable only if there is no one left behind to mourn their loss.

I'm really interested in hearing others' responses to this topic.

I like this response, Levite.

Though honestly I don't equate euthanasia with suicide, since it is ideally performed painlessly with the assistance of an outside source such as an attending physician.

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"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

pan6467

As for suicide, overall, I feel if someone truly wants to die for even a reason known only to them.... then by all means, I'm ok with their decision. Doesn't mean I'll let them "jump", I do have some compassion, I'd try to talk them out of it. But for some people even what the vast majority may find fulfilling someone may find depressing and how do you convince that person, life will get better?

To me, my mind is everything.... the body has always been secondary. I'm clumsy, uncoordinated and not exactly a great looking or well built man. So, if I lose the mind and my memories, I don't truly see having a quality of life, I want.

It's like when I worked in detox and saw people with missing hands who worked carpentry. They turned to addiction to hide from the pain of not being able to do that which they loved.

I love Scrabble, Risk and Chess, games that challenge my mind. Because physically, I truly cannot compete (although my body did make it through bootcamp). If I feel I cannot compete mentally anymore than what is my use in living? I cannot nor will not turn to drugs..... almost went there with the percocets a few weeks ago, thinking that with a picc line straight into a vein and knowing people, I could start shooting up. But, my mind thankfully made me decide differently. I was able to rationalize, (which for an addict I done did good, no my addiction was not in drugs or alcohol, but gambling it'll be 12 years March 20th), that using anything this late in my life especially for the first time would be foolish and cause me more troubles. I'm not Keith Richards or Ozzy and don't have millions. Plus, again, how would it affect that which I want to protect the most, my mind and (psuedo, to some) sanity. It would affect it negatively.

It's bad enough getting into a car and within 5 minutes forget where you wanted to go, so you drive around for 2 hours hoping to remember and sadly, you don't.

I do not want to live like that for another 30+ years because medical science lets me. To me that is not quality. If I can no longer do a suduku, play the games I love, do a crossword puzzle or be who I am, challenging my mind, then I no longer truly have any desire to be alive. It's a personal choice. Just as assisted suicide helps those who are physically and terminally ill, without being able to do what I love and be who I am, to me that is every bit as bad as last stages of cancer (and I am not implying that last stages of cancer necessarily = death... it is attitude and desire to live that may prolong that person's life). Last thing I want is someone to comment, "Hey Pan, what do you know about last stages of cancer? A relative/friend/co worker/whomever of mine supposedly had it and never gave up and is still alive today 10 years later with no cancer."


Emotional and psychological pain I have dealt with enough in my life and have found ways to be stronger, we all have our bullshit rationalizations. Mine was rationalizing the pain and overcoming it. We all have our bullshit rationalizations that only we, the individual, will ever understand, good bad or indifferent.

I leave with a Woody Allen quote, I find very appropriate for this topic: You can live to be a hundred if you give up all the things that make you want to live to be a hundred.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

pan6467

The problem here is that you are only covering the physical. To have or believe all you have is your mind and intelligence and see it stripped away... no med I know of will fix that. If so, I'd be shooting up right now. But ANY med that plays with the brain IMHO, would mess with who I am. I am not a big believer in meds "solving" mental illness. All they truly do is allow one to mask their problems internally. Why else would almost EVERY single anti depressant on the market say, "May cause an increase in suicidal ideations"? Maybe because everyone's brain is different. Hence the never ending need to keep drugging a person into a zombie with Zoloft, with benzodiazapines like xanax, klonopin, and so on. For some, yes, the right combo may help, but for others as they have told me, "It made me laugh on the outside but inside I still wanted to die."

Not a revelation I know but most drug addicts and alcoholics are on antidepressants and if the pills worked they wouldn't need to keep self medicating, with their drug of choice.

Just because you (and I mean this in a general sense because for the majority it applies) can understand physical pain, some can take it and build a high "tolerence" to it. The mental pain can be far worse and isn't easily explained or cannot "just go away" even with a medication, self/professional help, etc. "But we are told there are meds to take that away". Yes, and the big Pharms, make BILLIONS every year selling the public that the latest pill will cure their depression or anxiety. So, as a society, we recognize people are different skin, hair, and eye colors, and physical builds, we can somewhat understand, we can see" that and we understand. But when it comes to recognizing that our mentalities maybe different that who we are "inside" is as different as we are outside then we seem to be at a loss. Hence, hostility over political and religious philosophies. Hence, our not being able to understand mental anguish so severe that it supercedes any physical pain, for some people.

This is just my reasoning IF I am in the position where I believe that which is most precious to me, my mind is not there or where I want it to be. And no I am not suicidal, I am enjoying the fact that I have been given another chance by the God of my understanding.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

bagatelle

I agree with levite's post pretty far. If things are right, the family and close ones would rather deal with helping the suffering person than deal with the aftermath of suicide. The problem is the apathy though, not even the close ones always care, but here the society helping should come to the picture.

I also agree with Pan, that it will be hard to find a reason to live after losing abilities, but in a sense it's also arrogant and selfish to kill oneself, when a person suddenly has less, when there are people, who have struggled all their lives.

Now that the science has managed to make our life expectations better regarding physical condition, we should pay more attention to the quality of old people mental health. Not only through medication, but to find other ways for everyone to maintain our mental capacities starting from much earlier than at old age.

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pan6467

I have been very open about what I would do with my family (excluding my 100 yr old granny) and close friends. They all know how important the mind is to me and that should it not work properly and the dx states chances are it never will, that I will take my life. Most of them seem to be ok and understanding, with the exception of my sister. She believes that it is a selfish idea to even think about. She understands to the best of her ability why but still believes it to be a very selfish act.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

bagatelle

I find myself opposing to your view like your sister, even though you sort of have "permission" of your close ones. Growing old is part of life and you're expected to gradually lose everything.

In general people should stick around. If I'm following any logic: people can't choose to start their own life, should they be able to choose when to end it?

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ngdawg

I find suicide to be the most selfish thing a person could do. One is so wrapped up in his/her own misery, whether real or imagined, to be unable to fathom a) the misery is not or may not be permanent, b) the effect on those left behind and c) the lost opportunity to be a contributor to the world.
When that Rutgers student jumped off the bridge last September, my thoughts went to his devastated family. So much promise, so much talent and he was too selfish to care.
As someone who has suffered from depression, I know the feeling of being "cocooned" in misery but I also knew it could be alleviated and that seeking help was the only good option. And, no matter how bad it gets, I remind myself there are some who are worse off and count my blessings.

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Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Plan9

Devil's Advocate'd:

I find suicide to be perfectly reasonable for anybody at any time. Let's say it's the one true Hamlet freedom we have: Not To Be.

A: What is more real than your own misery? We are all we can ever claim to know for sure and even that's up for debate. And misery, real or imagined, is still misery, no? Suffering either physically or mentally is still suffering and that's just all bad. How is one person to judge another person's agony?
B: The effect on those left behind obviously doesn't matter to the person who is suffering or matters less than their immediate need to not be suffering.
C: One lost contributor is also one less person in the world to consume natural resources and tie up I-66 into Washington on a Monday morning at 0517.

Who is really impressed by potential? Nobody is going to give me a million bucks for potentially having the cure for cancer. Talent is only useful if you're around to use it. We are what we do, not what we can do, might do or should do. The Japanese certainly see suicide very differently than Americans.

I understand your point of view (I really do) but I see that as the same kinda silliness pushed by religion. Let's play John Lennon for a moment and "Imagine" that there is no religion, no god above, no hell and no afterlife. If you're sucking so bad as to want to kill yourself and you believe ("know") there is nothing beyond this world, why not go there? According to the Gospel of Dramarama (that '80s band), "Everybody Dies." Totally true.

I guess most of these debate points can be answered with smartass retort, "But what do you care? You're dead."

I'm not really all that "Babies On Spikes" but I figured these ideas should put up here for the sake of discussion.

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

jewels

Amen. And while I've been one of the many who've contemplated it more than once in their lifetime, I've always eventually realized it was pure selfishness. I needed attention, love, some kind of help in one way or another. I was too proud to ask and too blind to see. I thought I was a coward who didn't have the chutzpah to do it. What a shame to feel that depressed and kick yourself in the ass again and again.

That said, I think everyone should have a living will and that euthanasia is a beautiful thing.

---------- Post added at 09:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:20 AM ----------

Say WHAT? Imagined misery is just that, fictional misery. Drama, to overstate maybe a tad.

Your term "immediate need" tells all. Sounds like a selfish two year old wanting something to make everything better now, without regard to the consequences. Don't ya think that's kinda silly?

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We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

bagatelle

When you judge your own misery, you are still comparing yourself to others and their lives around you. Were the surroundings different, you might not have those worries.

Finland has statistically big suicide numbers compared to the rest of the world. In many cases there is depression. A very worrying feature is family suicide, when a distressed father has seen no other way out of problems than killing himself, but also the rest of the family, when he thinks the family has no future either.

Aren't japanese suicides often due to failing in business life? Shouldn't rather something be done to slow down and learn better to deal with shame than take examples from their culture?

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Plan9

Just for completeness: World Health Organization: Suicide Rates

...

And Bagatelle, what is wrong with the way the Japanese do things? The live ones seem to be very successful.

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

bagatelle

What is successful in life? Only to do well in business?

wow, when you look at those rates, you can see the highest numbers in countries of Eastern Europe and related to Russia.

Interestingly there are countries were suicides are almost non-existing.

Many suicides aren't even ending up in stats as suicides.

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Zeraph

IMO if you consider every type of suicide selfish, then you've never experienced true pain. Consider yourself lucky.

Grasshopper Green

I guess I'll jump in with my jaded .02.

Since 2004, I've lost a brother, a mother in law, a cousin, and a friend to suicide. They all had different reasons for dying.

My brother was a paranoid schizophrenic. Prior to developing the disease, he was smart as hell; was a gifted athlete, chess player, and musician; was the charming, good-looking, life of every party. He could have done anything he wanted to. When he died, he was a shell of the person he was before. He didn't want to live the way he was living. The psychologist I saw after his death told me it was ok to admit he was better off. He is. It hurts to admit it. I miss him terribly but I don't blame him for doing what he did.

My cousin and friend both found themselves in shitty positions that could have gotten better, but really, really sucked for awhile. I guess they just couldn't deal with life at that time. They've both caused a lot of pain to their loved ones. I think they fall into the group that ng was talking about - non permanent misery. They made their decisions and it sucks.

My mother in law lived a selfish life and died in a selfish manner. A week before her death, my husband and I severed ties with her. I watched my husband spend 15 years urging her to get therapy, to get into rehab, to turn her life around while the rest of the family enabled her and justified her actions. In the end, she chose her lifestyle and her victimhood over her family; we just couldn't take it anymore. I truly believe her death was her final fuck you, her final "Look at what YOU made ME do!" moment. Her family is devasted and is dwelling in the "shoulda, woulda, coulda" camp. Their pain is heartbreaking. Hers - not so much. Call me a coldhearted bitch if you want to, but I can't sugarcoat it.

It all comes down to the individual. I can't say that it's never justifiable. Suicide sucks and wreaks havoc on the people left behind, but so does child abuse, drug abuse, murder, gambling addiction, etc. People make stupid, bad decisions. Suicide just happens to be one of them.

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"They say that patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings; steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you king"

Formerly Medusa

Zeraph

If I may ask Grasshopper Green? I've never met anyone who knew so many people that committed suicide. I'm curious if there is a correlation to how it is done, and how it is later perceived. (like your aunt). May I ask how each of them died?

powerclown

Interesting link. I wonder why the rate of suicide worldwide is so much lower for women? Very surprised by that statistic.

Zeraph

India maybe? Its a banned practice officially but when their husband dies there's an old belief the wife must die too. Usually burned...

Also women simply live longer than men statistically. So there'd be more old age related suicides for women than men.

bagatelle

Thanks for sharing this, GG. Here comes the part, where I think the society has some responsiblity looking over their members. There are people, who could recover with help. Sometimes the signs are there, and we should not think, we are allowed to let our close ones give up on their lives that easy. We have to interfere, those who have the capacity.

I'm sure there are many cases, when death can be considered a relief. Great physical pain, mental condition, when these problems are permanent and harmful for yourself and others around you. It's understandable, but still it's a loss with additional feelings of guilt.

I know very little about the topic personally, I don't know anyone close, who committed a suicide. Heard a few stories of people, I knew distantly. I'm trying to speak for those, who can be helped.

There was a young boy, who was drunken driving and his girlfriend died in the crash, he caused. He was injured badly himself and when he was able enough to move, even though being carefully looked after, he had managed to try to kill himself, but didn't succeed. In his condition, it was not surprising he would try it, but it wouldn't have been right for anyone to let him go through with his attempts.

It is not easy to take your own life. You might fail terribly and end up living with more problems than you would have had.

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powerclown

Think thats all there is to it? Maybe you are right.

bagatelle

Statistics from Finland say men are more prone to committing suicide at age 41-45, women at 46-50. I make conclusions getting older has something to do with it.

Statistically the readiness to obtain means to commit suicide will increase suicides. Great Britain had high rating of suicides in 1945-1965, until they replaced coal gas by natural gas, thus lessening the availability of carbon monoxide in households. I make conclusions, men have easier to find the means.

Without any statistics to back up, I claim it's easier for women to seek help.

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ngdawg

A)With the exception of debilitating disease, misery is temporary, even the blackest of it. Yes, it's real but only someone who really believes no one else's suffering is as bad or that it's hopeless takes the short road out and to me that is selfish. "No one knows what I'm going through" is self-centered and a cop-out.
B) Again, completely selfish. Not to mention infantile. The ultimate beg for attention except if the act is successful, the person doesn't get to relish the attention now given.
C) Now that's just silly.

Everyone has some kind of potential-even it's just the potential to piss off everyone else.
Do you have the talent to cure cancer? I said the boy had talent and from the news articles that followed, he had gobs of it. But because two assholes played some dumb prank on an already confused young man, he took the short road. No one ever heard about the other person involved-probably because he wasn't wallowing in some perceived misery culminating in a life-ending show of desperation.

Depression runs in my family along with green eyes and acne. From my grandmother to my mother to me and my sisters and now my daughter, we all experience it, but for whatever reason, unlike Grasshopper Green's family, we wallow, we seek help, we go on. It would be an interesting study to find out why inherited depression tendencies in one family culminate in suicide while the same thing doesn't in another, but it's kinda hard to interview the dead ones.

The Japanese used to (don't know that they still do) would commit Hari-Kari for really dumb reasons. If anything, wallowing in perceived misery outscores "disgracing" the family name.

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Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Grasshopper Green

My brother, friend, and MIL used pills/drugs. My cousin shot himself. My uncle (mom's brother) also committed suicide when I was a child. He was a schizophrenic and hung himself. I didn't know him and have never felt negatively affected by his death, other than it made my mom sad.

Mental illness runs in my mother's family (obviously); my sister and mother both have been diagnosed with clinical depression and have both unsuccessfully attempted suicide. I'm the "normal" one. I've had bouts of depression my entire life, but I've learned how to better deal with them and experience depression less as I've gotten older. I've never seen suicide as a viable alternative. I'm not saying it's never crossed my mind, because it has...it's just never been an acceptable solution to whatever shittiness I've dealt with. I don't know why my viewpoint is different than those in my family. It just is.

As far as perception goes, it's been a mixed bag, but manner of death hasn't seem to affect people's personal opinions on the matter. Mental illness and suicide still carry stigmas and cause discomfort to many. From my personal experience, those factors play more of a role than the actual cause of death.

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"They say that patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings; steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you king"

Formerly Medusa

Zeraph

Thanks GG.


I've met only one single person impressed with my potential (graduated college at 21, even not taking my finals because of seizures). Unfortunately she was not a hiring manager.

I've sought help. I've been miserable since 17ish (26 now). Occasionally something good happens. Or there's an activity that I really enjoy doing, but all that passes in a small amount of time. I was raised so well that I never considered suicide until 22 (that's after 6 years of misery and depression.) At 23 or 24 I started seeking help and got it. Still miserable. That's almost decade of deep depression and misery. Sure its temporary? My uncle still hasn't come out of it (low 50s). And my other uncle is schizophrenic. Don't act like seeking out help is the answer. We all have and it hasn't helped much.

What does hari kari mean? I've always known it as Seppuku. They are dumb reasons only to you. Obviously they felt differently and they have the same brains as we do.

Bonkai

To each his own, if someone wants to end their life why shouldn't they?!

Willravel

I have to say I'm a bit libertarian on the issue of suicide. It should be a person's choice to commit suicide, so long as it doesn't involve directly hurting other people (like a suicide bombing). Your life is the one thing that's truly yours.

Mountain Biker

Its hard to say, you have to be in someones shoes to understand what they are thinking. To me, loosing a house and job would only mean that now I can go hiking and backpacking for a long time! A positive to me, for others - they might see it as the end of everything.

To each their own but I don't like seeing anyone (minus crimminals, rapist, child molesters, drug dealers/pushers.... only wish they all would) take their own life.

snowy

I appreciate that genuinegirly mentioned the difference between suicide and euthanasia. I live in a state with a euthanasia law, the Death with Dignity Act.

In Oregon, you can choose euthanasia if these conditions are met:

from: FAQs about Death with Dignity

I agree with our law.

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If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Mountain Biker

Yea, thats a good law - wish more states would allow that option.

bum4evr

I agree. some people just dont get dealt a fair hand in life and who are we to deny them the right of putting a stop to the pain?

I was never gifted in life with looks, charm or charisma- my last birthday, christmas and thankgiving I sat alone with nobody and nothing. But the hand in life we get is just something we have to accept.

Thank god we live in such a technological age where I can fill my life with Ipods, music, TV, movies, PC games and such. If I lived in a time before those things, like the 1800's, I would have killed myself long ago just because of pure boredom.

I think people have a right to commit suicide if their life is too painful, but we need to stop "impulsive suicides" - the ones where people go through something painful and kill themselves right away.

Maybe like the 7 day waiting period to buy a handgun in california, a 7 day waiting period to commit suicide.

noodle

I'm going to say it: I'm with niner to a point.

Suicide is awful for those left behind, but for the person involved, it's not a "right" or "wrong" situation. It's always the solution that they chose. Whether we say it's okay or not, it's what they chose. Their misery or suffering was theirs, completely and totally. Who are we to say it was the right or wrong choice because we think so. I truly believe that when you're immersed in those feelings it seems as if there is no alternative, then that is where you are and no one else can truly empathize. It's not wrong, it's not right... it just is. And we have to deal with our own feelings about it. So, trying to decide when it's acceptable and when it's not is kind of a moot point. In my opinion.

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bum4evr

im confused... from what I can tell from your post - A person who wants to kill themself has a right to do so, and the government has no right to stop you?

edit: Here's how life works: you either get to ask for an apology or you get to shoot people. Not both. ~ House - nice sig. I saw that episode

snowy

Having been there, I think you're right.

I was lucky in that I had people who cared about me enough to persuade me that there was an alternative beyond hurting myself. All I wanted at that point was to not be; trying to see beyond my own lack of self was difficult.

My first post in this thread is what it is because I do believe that euthanasia is acceptable and that suicide is another ball of wax entirely--and a ball of wax that requires some delicacy. I have been there; I have been in the bottom of the hole that is so deep you don't feel like you will ever ever ever get out. I am exceedingly thankful that I had friends and family that wanted me to live, and wanted to get me the help I needed to survive to see another day. It helped me realize that mental anguish like that can be a temporary state. I have been to the pit again since then; while I desired to injure myself, I didn't desire to go so far as to kill myself.

Ultimately, though, I believe that if you have the chance to intervene with someone contemplating suicide, you should. You might make a world of difference.

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If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

pan6467

I like how you say this. My belief is that NOT 1 person that commits suicide on purpose without having laid down clues to where their head and mentality is. I have known a few suicide victims and each time after the deed you could look back and see their hidden cries for help, that apparently noone saw during their life.

I just believe "spontaneous" suicides are very rare. Family, friends etc should see the change in their friend/sibling/child/etc. Isolating, refusing to do things they loved to do, increase in drugs and alcohol intake, sleeplessness, acting as if they do not "see" or cannot "think" of a better happier time for them. Using phrases such as if something were to happen....... no future tenses but a lot of past tenses.... "I loved playing tennis, before I blew my knee out."

The red flags I believe are 99% always there it's just seeing them and pointing them out to the person and trying to help them out. Attitudes can change.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

noodle

That is correct, if you'd like to nutshell it.

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ngdawg

Of course they are dumb to me-this is an opinion thread, not one of facts.
Hari-Kari involves taking a sword, plunging it into the gut and, if your strength allows, ripping it upwards, disemboweling oneself. The quieter one could do it, the "braver" they were thought to be. Sepuku and hari-kari are the same thing.

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Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

bagatelle

When thinking of Japanese suicides, I had in my mind the image of business men jumping off of buildings, when they have failed to make success.

I didn't think of harakiri, as it's known here.

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Jetée

Just to chime in with my "trivialities": (I'll probably reply to the topic at large, a week later, when everybody has most likely moved on... I'd like to read everything first, then accumulate my thoughts, if you don't mind.)

The Japanese code ('tradition') of seppuku traces its origins back to the fuedual ages of Japan, with the Samurai, house clans, Shogunates and whatnot. It is basically "choosing" (there really isn't a choice, however) to end one's own life instead of facing dishonor, defeat, or bringing besmirchment/shame upon one's family/Lord. I suppose you could call it the East's version of America's catch-phrase of "Dying with Dignity". It was very widespread then until now, and still in pockets, is practiced with rigidity, that of the code of Bushido. (Think of Europe's own Middle Ages, and the 'Knight's Code of Chivalry', if you'd call it that.)

i.e.
Instead of having some more elite swordsman, a shady mistress, or a business tycoon upstage all of your life's travails and accomplishments in one fell swoop by either slicing you in two/telling your wife & family of your illicit affairs/buying out your corporation and dismantling your oonce-proud empire, you can stick it to them (as well as in yourself) by not giving them the satisfaction of a "true" defeat. This is the reason why nearly all depictions of Western Samurai are wrong: nearly every appointed samurai was tasked to hold two swords, one long, for battle and defense, while the other, short, in dire times when defeat and/or capture is near-immediate, yet also impossible to allow, the warrior would plunge the dagger (kunai?) into his belly, thereby heralding his "honorable withdrawal". In a land, with a rich tradition where winning is everything, and perfectionism, meticulousness and esteem come second to none but the family (this is more Chinese, though).

It may hard to understand now that these are the Modern Times, but back then, and not even 50-60 years ago, when not everyone could own property, be rich, or even educated, honor is the one thing that can make a person feel a spiritual richness in life. When that honor is threatened to the point of no return, and in order not to bring shame upon your family/title/superiors by still hanging around with the idea of "you have been defeated once, who is to say you shall not be defeated again; you wish to bring us down with you as well?".

If you need to know more, a good first glancing is below... (the above is just my semi-short, not-very-quickly-written, off-the-dome knowledge of what you guys are trying to incorporate to the discussion, but may be missing a few knowledge bits of history.)


[wiki.]

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—Mohandas K. Gandhi