EleqTrizi'T

Hello. I'm mostly an occassional lurker.

I have a situation and I thought I'd ask for opinions here as I know most of you shoot straight.

My neighbor and I are good friends. We moved into our neighborhood about 8 years ago about the same time, and have been friends since. Lots of nights drinking, etc. We bought motorcycles together, everything. We're close.

About a year ago he started becoming a grumpy old man, even tho he's only 35 (I'm 33). We both let ourselves go physically over the years of being happily married. He and I were both unhappy about being out of shape but he was REALLY unhappy. He is also a heavy smoker.

I decided I would buy a complete weight set and start working out. I asked him to join me. He lasted like a week before excuses started coming. I kept at it. About 6 months into that I decided I wasn't getting the results I wanted so I joined a gym and started seeing a nutrionist.

My neighbor? Gained 30 more lbs despite the fact I GAVE him all my weights (bench press, leg machine AND elliptical). BTW I gave him the weights after failed attempts to get him to join the gym with me. He said he could do it on his own if he had my equipment, so I gave it to him.

2 months ago I talked my cousin into coming with me to the gym. He's SUPREMELY out of shape. Talking 200+ lbs over what he should be. We've been making steady progress together. My cousin is down 40 lbs already.

Here is where the smoking question comes in. About 4 months ago my neighbor broke a rib. It's been broken ever since? Why? Because he damn near has emphysema and can't stop coughing hard. He smokes SO much and has been smoking since he's 14. He can't breath. He can't TALK to you without running out of breath. Imagine having pneumonia every day, all day. That's him. I've never talked to him about it because his wife has warned me he is ultra sensitive about it and will just claim it's allergies. Allergies all year round.

So on Saturday I was in his garage talking to him and his wife comes home from the gym. That's right she goes to the gym because he demands his wife at least try to be fit (she's in better shape than him by far). Anyways his wife is talking to me and saying how good I look and she can see the difference. So my neighbor says "I WISH I could work out but my rib...".

I tell him when he finally heals he should come to the gym with me and my cousin. He immediately says "I absolutely refuse to join a gym and waste the money." I point out its only $25 a month. "That's money I DO NOT have", he tells me. I finally say, "Come on man, how much do you spend on smokes in a month?!?"

He yelled at me! "GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY GARAGE!!" I was like what? "I SAID GET THE FUCK OUT!". I started to say I was just trying to help but he interrupted with some more yelling to get out.

So I left.

Ten minutes later he came over and apologized, but I'm still mad at being talked to that way. He's increasingly turned into an angry guy over the past year, and in fact got denied a promotion at work because his coworkers threatened to quit if he became their boss. But this is the first time he's treated me like crap.

So I talked to a few people. I couple of smokers I asked about this said "it's a lifestyle choice and it's not up to you to decide what's best for him". Most didn't know what to think, tho.

Was I out of line? I don't believe he can do this on his own, and you know what, I think what I said needed to be said. Am I just butting into people's business too much? Cuz really, I'd do that for anyone, but if people don't want any encourage/help/truth then I'll just let people be.

Xerxys

Do you want to expend the emotional support you would on an immediate family member to a friend who has a family himself? It appears that his wife is already sufficiently struggling with the issue so you should leave it be and only offer your support once solicited. In general simply tell him that you have been friends with him for long and that he has changed, and changed for the negative. Then leave at that, balls in his court.

Hektore

Money spent on drugs is disposable income, regardless of the drug. He could just as easily spend his money on a gym membership as cigarettes. You were not out of line, if he is sensitive about it that's his issue.

You need to decide whether or not you want to be friends with the guy. If you do then let him know he needs to not bitch about being unhealthy to you when he only has himself to blame. At the very least he shouldn't bitch at you for giving him an honest answer - if you can't be honest with your frends then what the hell is the point in hanging out with them? If you don't want to be friends anymore, then it's not an issue.

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Jinn

The only potential issue I see is talking about it in front of his wife (if you did). I've learned through many unfortunately encounters that a normal discussion with a guy will go to hell in a handbasket if you have it with his wife or girlfriend nearby. Some will try to be macho to show you up (even though it's his wife, not yours), some will just get pissed.

That said, it sounds like this guy is starting to be an emotional drain and your otherwise good-natured attempts to help him out are failing. You're in for a long road of disappointment if you think you can turn him around at this point.

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SecretMethod70

Hektore+1

I don't think you were out of line at all. It doesn't sound like you were being pushy about it, and he's the one who complained about affording it in the first place. Frankly, if friends can't politely exhange advice with each other, it doesn't seem very friendly does it?

Xerxys

I will state early now to forgo all "loose the 'friend'" advice being doled out. I know that he may have been a fucktard but you should give an addict another chance. Not a million chances, but patience to the last straw, it's not like he's begging you for money or you're financing his meth addiction or something so please don't blow this out of proportion.

Idyllic

Lead horse water..... I started smoking at 14, smoked until I decided to get pregnant (16 years later) and quite three month before we started trying, didn't smoke again until my second child turned 3 months and we had to move, long story, husband still smoked, stress, excuses, started smoking. I smoked outside, not in the car, tried not to smoke around the boys at all. I can say I missed smoking the whole time.

My mom has smoked my entire life, and pretty much hers, she can barely breathe, her sister smoked also, now she brings her O2 tank everywhere she goes. What’s really scary about these two wonderful ladies is if anything happens to them and they have to be innabated, their odds of ever coming off a respirator are slim to none, boy, hard to think about that. It truly is a life-style and so much more, if you've never enjoyed smoking, it's hard to understand and I really enjoyed smoking, loved everything about it, the smell even, I just love it.

Twenty months ago we had a house fire, I put it out with an extinguisher and in the process breathed in a lot of smoke and extinguisher stuff and I could barely breathe, let alone smoke. My lungs hurt so damn bad, all I could think was, this is what it must feel like to have emphysema and die slowly. I tried really hard to keep smoking, missed it and craved it and yearned for it, it just hurt so badly, then, when I could smoke again, I thought, why. I figured, if I started smoking because my mom smoked, maybe my boys would, I don't want them to decide that way so I figured I wouldn't necessarily quit, I'd just wait until they turn 18 and move out, they are only 6 and 7 now.

I would want a cigarette and think in just a minute I'll have one right after I do this and start doing something else, then I would think I want a cigarette, then make myself do something else, all the time, everyday over and over. Other circumstances in my life lead me to wellbutrin, a lovely little antiD that has a wonderful side effect, and for me, the only real side effect. I don't even like the smell of cigarettes any more and the taste of a cigarettes I find repulsive, unless I'm really drunk (very rare). What I find strange is I still want to smoke.... I still think when the kids leave and I'm not taking the antiD crap anymore, I just can't wait to smoke again, just the way it feels, I even miss liking it. Crazy.

It really doesn’t matter much what you say to your friend, at 33 he’s heard it over and over, you’re not telling him anything new. If his health is bad, smoking may be what he does to cope, even if it’s making it worse, doesn’t matter until it matters to HIM. No one really knows what it takes for someone to finally make the decision to quit and then stick to it. My husband has quit over and over and over, he likes to say “only quitters quit” ha ha. My dad, lifelong smoker, has quit, over and over and over also, he tells my, you have to quit smoking everyday, I understand that. I truly believe if it weren’t for the welbutrin, I would be smoking now. As a matter of fact, I want a cigarette. Oh well, I guess I’ll do the dishes.

Just be patient, be his friend and accept him, or don’t. He knows how you feel about it. When you move on, either in your friendship or not, it will still be his decision, and when or if he does quit, it won’t be because of anything you have or haven’t said. Sad, I know. If he does decide to quit, mention to his wife, or if he becomes comfortable talking about quitting, to him, about wellbutrin, it may help. I know they are prescribing it now as a smoking cessation tool. I don’t know if it will help him quit as I had already stopped smoking before I started taking it, but I sure can’t “physically” stand them right know, even though I wish I could. I know crazy again, that’s a smoker’s life, and it doesn’t make sense to me either. Good Luck.

Martian

As an ex-cigarette smoker:

I can understand a bit of sensitivity about smoking. It is a lifestyle choice, whether you agree with it or not, and smokers get shit on pretty heavily for it. That said, his reaction was way over the top. I've been known to tell people to drop it, but to freak out at the first mention of his habit is... extreme, to say the least.

You're wrong about one thing, though. If he's going to change, he's going to have to do it on his own. You're right that he probably won't, but if he doesn't you can't do it for him. That narrows your options down to accepting him as he is, or walking away.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Wes Mantooth

Sounds like a proportional response in my opinion I would imagine, given the state of his health and finances, that he probably hears this stuff all the time and is probably getting a little fed up with it. In this case it doesn't sound like you did anything wrong but he's probably been down the "its expensive and bad for you road" so many times he just blew his stack before the whole conversation began.

I'm a smoker and I can tell you that anybody who smokes knows how expensive it is and how bad it is for you health yet for whatever reason we just don't care, we are going to quit when we quit. Personally I get a little sick and tired of people who feel like they are somehow enlightening me to the negative aspects smoking, I find it condescending and very annoying, after you've heard it enough times you just start telling people to fuck off because it gets old.

Anyway if you still want to be his friend I'd just leave it alone. He knows what he's doing and trust me you aren't telling him anything he doesn't already know.

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SecretMethod70

That's all good and well. Then he shouldn't complain about how he won't go to the gym because $25 a month is an expensive waste of money. If you're going to be sensitive about your own bad choices, don't start conversations involving the consequences of those choices.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

genuinegirly

Your comment was out-of-line. You know it's a sore spot, yet you went there anyway. It's not something you would have done if you really valued his friendship. At least, that's his perspective.

For whatever reason, you didn't know that what you said would be so frustrating. Now you know that's his response. Avoid making comments about his smoking and move on.

I don't see any reason to ditch the friend. His addiction is all the more reason to stand beside him. Whether he wants to accept your healthy ways or not, he's exposed to them - he can see what a difference it's making in your life. He will either come to his senses or not, but in any case you won't be the jerk for leaving him when he needed a friend most.

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Wes Mantooth

He didn't, he said "I wish I could work out but my rib..." It sounds like he thinks the whole idea of paying to work out is a waste of money and probably wouldn't pay for it even if he didn't smoke. I go out for a run everyday, I wouldn't waste a dime of my money on a gym either, smoking doesn't even factor into it.

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Cynthetiq

People don't like to be told their wrong or told that they have to change. Change is hard. But change is what life is, it's about constant change. We just seem to think that it isn't.

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roachboy

o i dunno...its hard to tell much of anything about such situations from message board posts i find, particularly in situations like this where there seems to be kindling laying about for all kinds of reasons that your remark set a flame to. was it out of line? well, that seems a circular matter---given his reaction it was situationally so, yes? is there some Line that you Should Have Seen? it's impossible to say.

were i to try to read into this i'd say the op contains alot of extraneous detail because it looks to me like the reaction was triggered by anxiety over the increasingly obvious health consequences of smoking for this guy, which seem to be mapped over onto the money consequences. it may be that the backstory explains why this particular conjuncture was in place...but it may not.

btw i just quit smoking about 8 weeks ago.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Lindy

Sadly, for many smokers, it is not a choice. It's an addiction, compulsion, habit, dependency, or escape. Maybe all of those things and more. But most smokers simply cannot choose to not smoke. Any more than my ex husband could choose to quit drinking. He'd say "I can quit anytime I want to" but he never "wanted to."
I've been around recovering alcoholics and addicts that tell me that kicking cigarettes is harder than quitting drinking or drugging.
Congratulations, roachboy on quitting 8 weeks ago. And good luck on staying quit.

Lindy

Charlatan

Sounds like he is aware that his smoking is an issue and is having trouble dealing with it. The last thing he wants is for his friends to be on his ass about it. Maybe it's a cry for help or maybe it's just him saying, Fuck off and let me deal with it (even if he's not dealing with it).

I agree with the above comment that you need to be patient. It's his life. He will deal with it in his own way. All you can do is be there if he asks for help.

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Martian

Do you smoke? Have you in the past? I'm just curious where this level of expertise comes from.

Again, I am an ex-smoker of cigarettes and a currently enjoy my pipe tobacco. When I switched over to the pipe I also cut way back on my consumption level, and even that sucked.

Smoking is a choice. Saying that it's not is an abdication of responsibility, like taking your hands off the wheel of your car.

I am of the opinion that saying it's not a choice is like spitting in the face of everyone who does it. Give people a little more credit than that, please.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

SecretMethod70

Sorry martian, but that makes no sense. Smoking is an addiction. Not for every single smoker, but for the vast majority. This is not really debatable anymore, unless you work for the tobacco industry. And even they've mostly admitted it by now.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Martian

Smoking is an addiction. It's an addiction I've stared in the face, so I can't very well deny the fact. I know first-hand what it feels like to need tobacco with every fibre of your being. I know how much resolve it takes to deny those cravings. And I know it can be done, because I've done it.

It's difficult to quit smoking, but saying 'oh, I'm addicted, there's nothing I can do' is defeatist and, frankly, stupid.

Furthermore, saying that smoking isn't a choice is condescending towards the people who do smoke. 'Oh, they're addicted, they can't help it,' you say. Turns out that some folks can put down the cigarette whenever they want. And I'd go a step further and suggest that the ones who can't just aren't ready to do so yet, despite what they might say to the contrary.

The fact that it's difficult doesn't remove the aspect of personal responsibility from the equation. Ask a recovered addict if their addiction is a choice some time. I'd be interested to hear the results.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

roachboy

o geez. i dont know if i've "recovered" from anything. and my idea was to stop for a while so i could smoke once in a while. so i wanted to get to the place of being a smoker who chooses not to smoke, but its gotten a bit out of hand and i've not smoked for 8 1/2 weeks. and stopping was a bitch. it really was. for a while. it was hundreds of little decisions to not light up at that moment. the big one "i quit" ended up meaning nothing, really, beyond putting all the little decisions into motion. i'm not sure i'd bother with the discourse of personal responsibility in this...if thats how you're thinking about stopping chances are you won't. you just have to want to do it. then keep wanting to do it across all those little decisions.

its definitely an addiction. it has withdrawal patterns. it sucks quitting. i'm glad i have so far. actually it sucked enough that the process of quitting is what's pushed me off my initial plan. personal responsibility had nothing to do with it.

i'm not saying anything about that discourse of responsibility one way or another for other people btw. whatever works, you know?

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

kramus

Others have told you already what seems to be the thing to do here. You ought to support your buddy. That being said, you also ought to tell him that you are supporting him in his choices, but you will draw the line at getting a load of his shit whenever he gets all raggy about his choices and their consequences. He can smoke, but he can't hide behind a smokescreen . . .

I speak as someone coming from roachboy's place - a smoker who chooses not to smoke. In my case I smoked 15-20 cigarettes a day for 20+ years, and quit because it was too costly. Took it up after a break of 4 or 5 years when I was separated, and quit again in order to hang with my Lady (she's a non-smoker who won't put up with a partner who does).

I enjoy the actual act of smoking. I hated the smell, the debris, the cost, and the impact on my health, my mental energy and my time. Yes it is an addiction. No it is not easy to make those small choices to stop time and again till they add up the the big choice of not smoking over a period of weeks, months or years. It would be nice to have the occasional smoke and the first time I'd stopped smoking I did have one every couple of months just to show it wasn't a big deal either way.

It is when you feel the need to have one, have another, think about buying smokes so you can have more when you run out of the ones you have . . . that is when the addiction and the habit are running with the bit in their teeth. Your buddy is sliding down a slippery slope and he knows he has damaged his body permanently by smoking. Just support him, and refuse his shit. You guys ought to grant each other that much at least, eh?

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settie

I completely agree. I don't have respect for people that whimper and complain about their addictions. I've known people stop their own addictions, just as I've stopped my own. If you want to keep that crutch, fine, go ahead, I won't stop you. But, if you ever complain about it to my face, in any way, or whine about it, or mention it as your crutch, well, frankly, fuck off. I'll be helpful if you want me to, I'll listen to your problems, as long as its not an addiction. If it is, talk to a professional about it. I don't need your addictive burden on me too.

dlish

no wonder settie is one of my favourites here...Amen!

i dont think you were out of line in what you said, but rather you were out of line in the company that you said it in.

what men say between each other is sacred (sometimes) and to highlight a point that paints him in a bad light in front of his mrs is a no no, and diminshes his macho-ness and masculinity in his mrs eyes.

be glad he apologised. make sure you tell him that it wont be happening again without it having a dire strain on your relationship, possibly for good.

you obviously like his company, so dont cut him off at the knees just yet. just let him know that you've been boxing at the gym.

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Wes Mantooth

The smoking issue is really one of those gray areas when it comes to social etiquette. Wow...that probably makes no sense let me explain. I don't think the OP meant any harm nor do I think anybody that lectures about smoking really means any harm, after all they are only trying in some way to help you kick an unhealthy habit. The problem is a lot of times, from the smokers perspective, it really starts crossing a lot of personal boundaries. For example in this case the OP, innocently enough, tells the smoker to quit so he can afford going to the gym...innocent, harmless...but think about what he's really doing.

He's criticising (for lack of a better word) a grown man over his personal habits and financial choices. If you take smoking out of the equation and instead the OP said something like "If you stopped buying junk food you could afford it", I think most people would find that rather rude. For some reason its become acceptable in today's world to criticise smokers in ways that would be completely unacceptable when dealing with other personal subjects.

I don't know, its just a theory (and maybe I'm overtired and this makes no sense to anybody else), but imagine if every time you engaged in a bad, unhealthy habit (junk food, too much caffeine, alcohol) somebody lectured, questioned or talked down to you about it. I think most people would start blowing their stack after awhile.

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Geo

As an ex-smoker I understand where he is coming from. It is a lifestyle choice, he has to want to give up and it's very unlikely that anything you say will have enough effect to make him want to give them up. I was the same ignoring all the "It will catch up with you later" comments. It was only when I became very ill last year (non smoking related) that I decided smoking wasn't going to help me get any better.

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"what doesn't kill you, only makes you stronger"

GreyWolf

The OP was not out of line with his comment. His friend was somewhat out of line with his response, but as anyone who ever worked in a customer service position will understand, the reaction wasn't directed at the OP. It was more likely a reaction to his own inability to deal with the issue on his own.

And that has led to the discussion of the addiction/choice comments here. Many years ago, in another life, while working on my Psychology degree, my Behavioural Modification prof was a smoking-cessation specialist. He ran clinics pretty much all year-long to help people stop smoking, evaluating different programs.

One thing he did mention is that nicotine IS addicting in the same manner as heroin. It permeates every cell in the body, and those cells become dependent on. It is a physical addiction, not merely psychological. The craving that smokers feel is a real, physical sensation caused by the leaching of the nicotine from the body. Because of that, his programs were designed to deal with both the physical and psychological aspects of quitting.

Partly because it is legal and still (at least marginally) socially acceptable, and largely because it is an insidious physical addiction, giving up smoking is horrifically difficult. This is especially true for those with any sort of addictive personality tendencies (and more people suffer those than you might think). The recidivism rate for smoking is generally higher than that for heroin or cocaine. So saying it's a life choice is a bit simplistic.

The many, many people who do give up smoking know how easy it is to start up again. Personally, as a lifelong non-smoker, I tend to like the "don't give it up forever, just give up the next one" philosophy. That has worked for me for over 27 years of drinking. The problem is that what works for one person won't for another. That's why there are so many different programs to help smokers. If you want to give it up, you just have to keep trying until you find the method that works for you. But like any psychological addiction, nothing works without the addict WANTING to give it up.

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EleqTrizi'T

Thanks for all the replies, everyone. I really really appreciate it.

First let me be clear. I was not asking if I should keep him as a friend. I never intended, or even thought of, defriending him. Like I said, we are close. One incident is not going to change that. Our families are close, his kids stay at my house, vice versa. We have the same motorcycle, we both bought camping trailers and go on vacations together. It goes on and on. We are close.

Since I posted this, he came over a second time to apologize again. I hope that is testimony to our relationship. And to him.

I think some of you read into my post things I didn't state. I tried to keep it short and yet even so, I was told by Roachboy I had "extraneous detail", so you know... Keep it short for the attention span, too short and people can only guess

In all the years I've known him, I've never said anything about his smoking to him. And even in this instance, it really wasn't about smoking, as much as he stated he couldn't afford something, and calling it a waste of money, that costs just 7% of his smoking budget. Cheapest CA pack $4 * 3 packs a day * 30 days. And that's conservative on price and packs per day.

I pointed out his heavy smoking because if anyone could sacrifice just 7% of their smokes for a month, it would be my neighbor. I pointed out his lack of previous attempts at weight loss and my own unsatisfactory attempts because it is hard on your own. I want him to come with me to the gym because a workout buddy makes all the difference in the world when self-motivation isn't doing it for you.

If a friend can't say, "hey man, I've tried this this and this, it didn't work for me, either. I found this though and it works, why don't you do it with me?" then who can? My real question was did I do it in the wrong way? I'm thinking I did. At least, under the circumstances of talking to his wife about the gym, him hurting with his rib, etc.

I just want to help. All I can really do now though is lead my example and hope he thinks "Wow, if I had joined him when he asked me to I could be where he's at, too". Because I'm not going to talk to him about it anymore unless he brings it up.

yournamehere

When dealing with addiction of any kind, you must realize that to an addict, his (or her) addiction will always come first. Family and friends will always take a back seat to whatever is tickling the brain receptors. That's why no one ever quit smoking/drinking/heroin/cocaine, etc. for their friend , boss, or spouse. People who kick their addictions must do it for themselves.

As a friend, you can offer advice and support. But he's not going to quit smoking until he absolutely wants to; and he's not going to go to the gym with you until the day he is absolutely repulsed by what he sees in the mirror.

Unfortunately, smoking, obesity, and a sedentary lifestyle are the perfect storm for a heart attack before he's forty.

I think that your leading by example is about as good as you can do right now. Sounds to me like you're being a good friend.

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Dolores Haze

It can't be repeated enough - we know it's bad for us. And GreyWolf is right - we have to want to quit. Jane the Serial Dieter knows that Snickers bar is bad for her, but she still damn well wants the thing - nobody can convince her she shouldn't eat it. It has to be her own fear of not fitting into her clothes that keeps her from doing it.

I think part of the reason the recidivism rate is so high for smoking - and that smokers (myself included) display this strange "I know what it does, but I still choose" response is that while the negative effects of it are indeed awful, they're delayed for much longer than other substances people get hooked on.

If a person is told that behavior A and behavior B will have identical consequences, but that those consequences will come several years down the line for behavior A (whereas they'll show up immediately with B), they will most likely choose A. I had a heroin habit that I managed to keep functional and hidden for about a year and a half- but by my last couple months as a user, my fingernails were the consistency of string cheese, I was twenty pounds underweight and my liver was so beat having to process shitty Mexican black tar that I had the complexion of a canary. In recovery, I picked up smoking.

It's been four years since I kicked heroin and started smoking cigarettes, and at around two packs a week I can hardly feel any long-term effects. If I hadn't quit, I don't think I would have made it anywhere near the four-year mark with my other addiction. I might still be alive, but I'd be in no shape to say anything intelligible about it. I am consciously aware of the fact that if I keep smoking, I could die a death as slow and painful as the one that I could have when I was using smack - given a choice between lung cancer, poisoning and kidney failure, I'd probably say "Fuck 'em all! Can I shoot myself instead?"

And yet, I still choose - and I maintain that it's a choice - to keep smoking. Each decision to smoke one more cigarette takes into consideration, on some unconscious or pre-established level, the relative probability that I will die of cancer, and the amount of time it will take for it to go that far - and each time, so far, the momentary pleasure and relief I get from lighting up outweighs the fear of a distant threat. I know what addiction feels like, and this definitely counts - but they are not all equal. A tabby and a lion are both cats, yes, but one will scratch you through your jeans whereas the other will rip off your fucking jawbone.