Adjusting your sleep cycle - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

ASU2003 · 06-09-2009, 08:40 PM

By June 27, I need to be on a 7pm bedtime, 3am wakeup sleep cycle. This seems like an impossible task. I usually get home from work at 6:30pm (although if I got to work at 5-6am, I would be able to get home earlier). I am on a 2am bedtime, 8-9am wakeup time schedule currently.

Do you have any advice on how to force your body into changing? Are there any legal over-the-counter sleep drugs that work? One thing I have done before is stay up all night the night before, and then you will be tired the next day at 7pm. The problem is that it doesn't stick and I get into this 36 hour awake, 8-12 hour sleep cycle.

I have taken Ambien before and that will work, but I can't go to Mexico to pick up some Ambien, and since we don't have socialized medicine here, I'm not paying $80 for a 5 minute office visit for my doctor to write me a prescription*. Plus the $$ a bunch of pills cost.

Benadryl sometimes makes me tired, but it seems to only work if I take it at 10pm (I will fall alseep by 11). If I take it a 6pm, it won't do anything to make me sleepy. (I think they have changed it a little since the early 90s).

I have never taken Tylenol PM, or something like that, but it seems to be something I would be willing to try. But, I will need to be able to wake up the next day and not be tired or anything.

If anybody has any tips or suggestions, I would like them.

*I already called my doctor about Ambien and was told to try over-the-counter stuff first. But, I would need to make an appointment to get a prescription.

inBOIL · 06-09-2009, 08:49 PM

The best way to do this is the old-fashioned way. Force yourself to get up early and do something; find a way to stimulate you mentally as well as physically. Before your (now earlier) bedtime, do something that isn't physically or mentally stimulating, to help you fall asleep faster. If you keep moving your bedtime/waking up time earlier over the next few weeks, you shouldn't have much trouble. The only difficulty is remembering to do this and sticking with it.

n0nsensical · 06-09-2009, 08:55 PM

If you're a morning person, do that. If you're nocturnal, I suggest staying up as late as you can every night and sleeping as long as you can. Eventually you'll have gone all the way round and be going to sleep when the sun sets. Works like a charm for me, that's actually something like my body's natural cycle.

ASU2003 · 06-09-2009, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by n0nsensical

If you're a morning person, do that. If you're nocturnal, I suggest staying up as late as you can every night and sleeping as long as you can. Eventually you'll have gone all the way round and be going to sleep when the sun sets. Works like a charm for me, that's actually something like my body's natural cycle.

I am not, and have never been a morning person. Well, besides when I was in Australia at first. My body wet back to going to bed at 1am and getting up at 8am by the time I left however.

If I go all the way around, my body will compensate for the lack of sleep, and go right back to where I was.

For example:
Sleep Wake
3am - 8am
4am - 8am
2am - 9am
no bed
7pm - 8am (I could wake up earlier and the next night wouldn't change much)
1am - 8am (I wouldn't be tired at 7pm on this day)
5am - 12am

And this isn't something that is new to me. In college, this sleep cycle was perfect. When I was unemployed, I went to a 36 hour awake, 12 hour asleep cycle, and now I have been working for 5 years and have made it in to work by 8am less than 10 times. I don't think will power is going to cut it this time.

Plan9 · 06-09-2009, 09:24 PM

... or just blunt force trauma it. You'll bottom out and begin the cycle as part of recovery.

I feel there is no easy way to do something that is "unnatural" like altering a sleep schedule.

I've tried it for work, school, hunting trips, military operations, etc. No luck. It just sucked.

You can try waking up early and staying awake with minimal 90 minute naps if necessary.

...

I'm kinda leery of Ambien. My roomie at Bragg said it made the walls turn purple and melt.

ASU2003 · 06-09-2009, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crompsin

I'm kinda leery of Ambien. My roomie at Bragg said it made the walls turn purple and melt.

If you fight it, it is weird. If you are in bed within an hour of taking it, I had no problem. It did work, but you aren't supposed to take it for a long time (and you do get a little better quality of sleep without taking it, but it is better than no or very little sleep.)

inBOIL · 06-09-2009, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by n0nsensical

If you're a morning person, do that. If you're nocturnal, I suggest staying up as late as you can every night and sleeping as long as you can.

I'm totally not a morning person. I've tried your method, and it didn't work for me. Maybe it's just a matter of trying different methods until one works for you.

Baraka_Guru · 06-10-2009, 02:35 AM

Yeah, try to do it drug-free.

Get a sleep mask, and set up a regular schedule. The body will chemically respond to darkness and a regular habit of shutting down.

Try light carbs before bed, and avoid stimulation from TV or the Internet....lights in general.

Relaxation techniques should help too. Deep breathing, etc.

I would use sleep aids only as a last resort.

ASU2003 · 06-10-2009, 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

I would use sleep aids only as a last resort.

Why? What is wrong with forcing your cycle to adjust? I would think using something will give me a better chance at succeeding.

Baraka_Guru · 06-10-2009, 05:37 AM

The more natural your habit, the more beneficial. Relying on sleep aids supersedes programming your body to do it on its own. Sleep is reliant on body chemistry. Our habits and environment are factors that trigger the chemicals that induce and control sleep.

Bringing in sleep aids might require a continuation of sleep aids for it to work. It's a synthetic reaction you'd be after. It's up to you, of course, but I'd suggest trying to program your body to use what it's already capable of.

At least consider a brief melatonin supplementation rather than using Ambien or Tylenol PM.

Ratman · 06-10-2009, 08:58 AM

Beware of Ambien, it is addictive. Tylenol PM, or any "PM" labeled drug, has a coating that is the generic Benedryl- diphenhydramine HCL. I react well to a couple of generic Benedryl ("Allergy Medicine" at Costco) if I really can't drift off. If you need to change your cycle, it takes a little time. You need to set a routine. Go to bed at the same time every time, whether you are tired or not. Take some melatonin, as this helps reset your circadian rhythm. Make the room as dark as possible- heavy shades that really block the light. Get up at the same time everyday, even if you have to stay in bed awake for an hour. Don't use your bedroom for anything other than sleep- No TV, no reading in bed or any other distractions if possible. Eventually your clock will reset.

vanblah · 06-10-2009, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASU2003

I have never taken Tylenol PM, or something like that, but it seems to be something I would be willing to try. But, I will need to be able to wake up the next day and not be tired or anything.

Tylenol PM and Sleepinal are both pretty much the same thing as Benedryl: 25 to 50mg doses of diphenhydramine.

When I have had to change my sleep cycle I usually just have to be tired a couple of days after the new schedule kicks in. I don't drink coffee during these times -- no matter how much I want it. Usually I stop drinking coffee on Thursday (or two days before a "weekend") so that I have the headache on Saturday and Sunday. I'm usually fine by Monday.

It should only take a few days of being tired for you to start sleeping at the new time.

Edit: Ratman beat me to it about the benedryl thing.

n0nsensical · 06-10-2009, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inBOIL

I'm totally not a morning person. I've tried your method, and it didn't work for me. Maybe it's just a matter of trying different methods until one works for you.

Such is life.

ASU2003 · 06-11-2009, 01:37 AM

It worked the first day without drugs. I ate a large lunch, and instead of taking a nap, I stayed awake until 7:30pm, then slept until 4:30am. I'll see if I am tired at 7pm again tonight.

Push-Pull · 06-11-2009, 03:17 PM

One thing that helped me was earplugs. The sleep mask didn't do a thing for me, but once I started the earplugs, I was able to get to sleep. One thing to consider is that if you try to sleep during daylight hours, you may not be getting as good a quality of sleep as night. At least I've noticed that with myself and my co-workers.

IdeoFunk · 06-11-2009, 09:58 PM

Anybody familiar with melatonin by chance? I first heard it wasn't effective, now I recall reading somewhere recently that it was being regarded as effective. I'm just wondering if anyone here has happened to try it... I've been slipping more and more towards becoming nocturnal thanks to these last few weeks, and I've happened to notice that my roommate has a bottle sitting in the bathroom...

n0nsensical · 06-11-2009, 10:05 PM

Melatonin is a hormone that is involved in regulation of the sleep cycle. A high level indicates you're ready to sleep, but it won't necessarily cause you to fall asleep on its own. It is synthesized in the body from serotonin, which is in turn synthesized from 5-HTP and tryptophan. Any of those can act as a sleep aid, but everyone is different, and they might not either.

IdeoFunk · 06-11-2009, 10:25 PM

Yeah, I know it's a bodily hormone involved in Circadian cycles which is why I find myself even being remotely tempted to try it. In my opinion most other sleep aides do more harm than benefit by ruining sleep cycles; but in this case - not so sure.

n0nsensical · 06-11-2009, 10:36 PM

You could always try it, the worst it will do is nothing, or it might make you fall asleep faster. I've only taken 5-HTP, which does work for me, but usually by the end of my day I'm so tired I don't have a problem.

MSD · 06-12-2009, 08:16 AM

1mg of melatonin should help the average person to fall asleep. 3mg is on the high side, and 5mg is way too much. While it will help you sleep, more than necessary will disrupt deep sleep and leave you less rested than a lower dose. You want a serious "natural" sleep aid? Go to GNC and get a bottle of L-Tryptophan.

snowy · 06-12-2009, 10:14 AM

I don't really like diphenhydramine as a sleep aid, but I do use doxylamine succinate from time to time. It's labeled as one of the varieties of Unisom, but I just buy the generic Kroger stuff. I find about half a pill usually puts me to sleep but keeps me from being too groggy the next day.

Usually I try breathing exercises before I pop a pill, though. Trying to alter your sleep schedule is difficult. Good luck!

ASU2003 · 06-12-2009, 03:44 PM

I tried melatonin about 7 years ago, but it didn't do anything. If it doesn't put me to sleep, I can usually stay awake. Then again, part of my problem is getting done with everything in order to go to bed.

06-09-2009, 08:40 PM	#1 (permalink)
ASU2003 immoral minority Location: Back in Ohio	Adjusting your sleep cycle By June 27, I need to be on a 7pm bedtime, 3am wakeup sleep cycle. This seems like an impossible task. I usually get home from work at 6:30pm (although if I got to work at 5-6am, I would be able to get home earlier). I am on a 2am bedtime, 8-9am wakeup time schedule currently. Do you have any advice on how to force your body into changing? Are there any legal over-the-counter sleep drugs that work? One thing I have done before is stay up all night the night before, and then you will be tired the next day at 7pm. The problem is that it doesn't stick and I get into this 36 hour awake, 8-12 hour sleep cycle. I have taken Ambien before and that will work, but I can't go to Mexico to pick up some Ambien, and since we don't have socialized medicine here, I'm not paying $80 for a 5 minute office visit for my doctor to write me a prescription. Plus the $$ a bunch of pills cost. Benadryl sometimes makes me tired, but it seems to only work if I take it at 10pm (I will fall alseep by 11). If I take it a 6pm, it won't do anything to make me sleepy. (I think they have changed it a little since the early 90s). I have never taken Tylenol PM, or something like that, but it seems to be something I would be willing to try. But, I will need to be able to wake up the next day and not be tired or anything. If anybody has any tips or suggestions, I would like them. I already called my doctor about Ambien and was told to try over-the-counter stuff first. But, I would need to make an appointment to get a prescription.

06-09-2009, 08:49 PM	#2 (permalink)
inBOIL I have eaten the slaw	The best way to do this is the old-fashioned way. Force yourself to get up early and do something; find a way to stimulate you mentally as well as physically. Before your (now earlier) bedtime, do something that isn't physically or mentally stimulating, to help you fall asleep faster. If you keep moving your bedtime/waking up time earlier over the next few weeks, you shouldn't have much trouble. The only difficulty is remembering to do this and sticking with it. __________________ And you believe Bush and the liberals and divorced parents and gays and blacks and the Christian right and fossil fuels and Xbox are all to blame, meanwhile you yourselves create an ad where your kid hits you in the head with a baseball and you don't understand the message that the problem is you.

06-09-2009, 08:55 PM	#3 (permalink)
n0nsensical Junkie Location: San Francisco	If you're a morning person, do that. If you're nocturnal, I suggest staying up as late as you can every night and sleeping as long as you can. Eventually you'll have gone all the way round and be going to sleep when the sun sets. Works like a charm for me, that's actually something like my body's natural cycle. __________________ "Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." --Abraham Lincoln

06-09-2009, 09:24 PM	#5 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	... or just blunt force trauma it. You'll bottom out and begin the cycle as part of recovery. I feel there is no easy way to do something that is "unnatural" like altering a sleep schedule. I've tried it for work, school, hunting trips, military operations, etc. No luck. It just sucked. You can try waking up early and staying awake with minimal 90 minute naps if necessary. ... I'm kinda leery of Ambien. My roomie at Bragg said it made the walls turn purple and melt. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."

06-10-2009, 02:35 AM	#8 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	Yeah, try to do it drug-free. Get a sleep mask, and set up a regular schedule. The body will chemically respond to darkness and a regular habit of shutting down. Try light carbs before bed, and avoid stimulation from TV or the Internet....lights in general. Relaxation techniques should help too. Deep breathing, etc. I would use sleep aids only as a last resort. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

06-10-2009, 05:37 AM	#10 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	The more natural your habit, the more beneficial. Relying on sleep aids supersedes programming your body to do it on its own. Sleep is reliant on body chemistry. Our habits and environment are factors that trigger the chemicals that induce and control sleep. Bringing in sleep aids might require a continuation of sleep aids for it to work. It's a synthetic reaction you'd be after. It's up to you, of course, but I'd suggest trying to program your body to use what it's already capable of. At least consider a brief melatonin supplementation rather than using Ambien or Tylenol PM. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

06-10-2009, 08:58 AM	#11 (permalink)
Ratman Addict Location: Somewhere... Across the sea...	Beware of Ambien, it is addictive. Tylenol PM, or any "PM" labeled drug, has a coating that is the generic Benedryl- diphenhydramine HCL. I react well to a couple of generic Benedryl ("Allergy Medicine" at Costco) if I really can't drift off. If you need to change your cycle, it takes a little time. You need to set a routine. Go to bed at the same time every time, whether you are tired or not. Take some melatonin, as this helps reset your circadian rhythm. Make the room as dark as possible- heavy shades that really block the light. Get up at the same time everyday, even if you have to stay in bed awake for an hour. Don't use your bedroom for anything other than sleep- No TV, no reading in bed or any other distractions if possible. Eventually your clock will reset. __________________ The difference between theory and reality is that in theory there is no difference. "God made man, but he used the monkey to do it." DEVO

06-11-2009, 01:37 AM	#14 (permalink)
ASU2003 immoral minority Location: Back in Ohio	It worked the first day without drugs. I ate a large lunch, and instead of taking a nap, I stayed awake until 7:30pm, then slept until 4:30am. I'll see if I am tired at 7pm again tonight.

06-11-2009, 03:17 PM	#15 (permalink)
Push-Pull I'll ask when I'm ready.... Location: Firmly in the middle....	One thing that helped me was earplugs. The sleep mask didn't do a thing for me, but once I started the earplugs, I was able to get to sleep. One thing to consider is that if you try to sleep during daylight hours, you may not be getting as good a quality of sleep as night. At least I've noticed that with myself and my co-workers. __________________ "No laws, no matter how rigidly enforced, can protect a person from their own stupidity." -Me- "Some people are like Slinkies..... They are not really good for anything, but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs." -Unknown- DAMMIT! -Jack Bauer-

06-11-2009, 09:58 PM	#16 (permalink)
IdeoFunk Crazy Location: to	Anybody familiar with melatonin by chance? I first heard it wasn't effective, now I recall reading somewhere recently that it was being regarded as effective. I'm just wondering if anyone here has happened to try it... I've been slipping more and more towards becoming nocturnal thanks to these last few weeks, and I've happened to notice that my roommate has a bottle sitting in the bathroom...

06-11-2009, 10:05 PM	#17 (permalink)
n0nsensical Junkie Location: San Francisco	Melatonin is a hormone that is involved in regulation of the sleep cycle. A high level indicates you're ready to sleep, but it won't necessarily cause you to fall asleep on its own. It is synthesized in the body from serotonin, which is in turn synthesized from 5-HTP and tryptophan. Any of those can act as a sleep aid, but everyone is different, and they might not either. __________________ "Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." --Abraham Lincoln Last edited by n0nsensical; 06-11-2009 at 10:34 PM..

06-11-2009, 10:25 PM	#18 (permalink)
IdeoFunk Crazy Location: to	Yeah, I know it's a bodily hormone involved in Circadian cycles which is why I find myself even being remotely tempted to try it. In my opinion most other sleep aides do more harm than benefit by ruining sleep cycles; but in this case - not so sure.

06-11-2009, 10:36 PM	#19 (permalink)
n0nsensical Junkie Location: San Francisco	You could always try it, the worst it will do is nothing, or it might make you fall asleep faster. I've only taken 5-HTP, which does work for me, but usually by the end of my day I'm so tired I don't have a problem. __________________ "Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." --Abraham Lincoln

06-12-2009, 08:16 AM	#20 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	1mg of melatonin should help the average person to fall asleep. 3mg is on the high side, and 5mg is way too much. While it will help you sleep, more than necessary will disrupt deep sleep and leave you less rested than a lower dose. You want a serious "natural" sleep aid? Go to GNC and get a bottle of L-Tryptophan.

06-12-2009, 10:14 AM	#21 (permalink)
snowy Kick Ass Kunoichi Location: Oregon	I don't really like diphenhydramine as a sleep aid, but I do use doxylamine succinate from time to time. It's labeled as one of the varieties of Unisom, but I just buy the generic Kroger stuff. I find about half a pill usually puts me to sleep but keeps me from being too groggy the next day. Usually I try breathing exercises before I pop a pill, though. Trying to alter your sleep schedule is difficult. Good luck! __________________ If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

06-12-2009, 03:44 PM	#22 (permalink)
ASU2003 immoral minority Location: Back in Ohio	I tried melatonin about 7 years ago, but it didn't do anything. If it doesn't put me to sleep, I can usually stay awake. Then again, part of my problem is getting done with everything in order to go to bed.