abaya

How many friends do you have who maintain polar opposite views/values from you?--And I don't mean "Facebook friends," but intimate friendships where you each trust and depend on each other, and could call them at 3am if necessary, and vice versa.

I have several former-best-friends with whom I talk now and then, but we are no longer very close. I wouldn't classify them in this category (and several of them have polar opposite views from my own). I am just wondering if it was the "drift" that killed the friendship, or if we drifted because as we grew up, our values just became too different to sustain an intimate friendship.

Truly, I am not sure how close I could get to a hard-core republican. I was chatting online with one of these older friends of mine today, and she mentioned that "All your Facebook statuses seem to be about politics lately..." and I replied, "Yeah, I'm really concerned about the outcome of this year's election, I'm on fire this year"... and then she changed the subject to her brother starting college, just like that. I know she votes republican because she's fervently pro-life, and voted for Bush both times ONLY because of that issue. So from the way she responded to that statement of mine, I'm pretty sure she's voting McCain and just doesn't want to go there with me.

But jeez, I mean... isn't that what friends do? With my best friends, I know where they stand on significant issues. We go down deep when we're talking, not surface crap or "catching up" for long... I always want to know where they stand on issues, life decisions, etc... and they know where I stand, and luckily, we tend to agree. I don't think we'd be close friends, otherwise. Same thing with ktsp and me... I don't think I could have married someone who was conservative, because I would have started a fight with that person every day (especially during this season!).

It just saddens me somewhat that my friendships tend to be with the same kind of people, because for whatever reason, I get pretty impatient with being in close quarters with someone who does not share my worldview. It's not that I think they should agree with me--but I do want to know why they believe a certain way, and I will drill into a person when I get to know them, to get down to the bedrock for what they believe. A lot of people are probably not cool with that.

But I have to know what someone believes, before I can figure out how to truly connect with them. It's just much harder to find ways to connect at a deep level when the person is standing on the opposite side of the world from me, so to speak.

Thoughts?

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Tully Mars

I can relate to this. My last residence was in a very rural, very "red" area on the northern Oregon coast. Back during the '04 race I supported Kerry/Edwards. Almost all my neighbors and friends were major Bush/Cheney backers. One day I had a long time friend stop by to make sure I had a Bush bumper sticker. I told her "I'm not voting for that guy this time." You'd have thought I told her I want to have sex with her 6 yr. old son. She asked "Who the hell ya voting for then?" I told her and she just about had a melt down. Not long after she left I started getting phone calls from "friends" many offering advice on why I was SOOOOO wrong. Some just wanted to make sure I was going to be home so they could return tools they borrowed etc... One guy called to tell me what an unpatriotic SOB I was. He told me "I thought you were in the Navy, don't you have "veteran plates" on your truck?" "I was and I do." "Well if you vote Kerry you should send them back."

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snowy

None of my friends are very radically different from me, opinion-wise. I find it hard to get along with a couple types of people--social conservatives and those who grew up in a different economic class than me. The latter makes me feel incredibly guilty at times, but I really do honestly have a hard time communicating with/establishing friendship with those who grew up in tougher economic circumstances than I did. Somehow, resentment always builds and I end up being accused of being spoiled/a snob for whatever reason.

And I just don't socialize with social conservatives. There is a fundamental difference of understanding that just cannot be surmounted. We have a couple of them in my SO's family, and it's one of those things where we just try not to talk politics.

This is not to say that all of my friends have the same exact opinions that I have, and it's fun to find out the differences in between my opinions and theirs. My SO and roommate are both third-party supporters while I am a Democrat. We often have very interesting discussions about the current state of politics in the United States.

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If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

ASU2003

I'm friends with a few people on the far right and some on the far left in real life. Even my Mom, who is extremely conservative socially has always been a democrat (Michael Moore level).

I tend to not try and argue or bring up anything that would cause problems. And I usually don't ask them personal questions directly. I tend to figure it out for myself after a while.

Actually, the hardest part is having to keep different friends from meeting your other friends that would hate them. Yes, hate. I don't care about someone's personal views, just how much I can trust them and if they are fun people to be around. My college roommate was a racist and anti-Semite... But 4 out of 6 of my friends in college were Jewish. One was Caribbean. They could never meet or even know about each other. It was just easier that way.

Bear Cub

Yes. In fact, dated my polar opposite for over 2 1/2 years. I'm relatively introverted, not a fan of clubs, not very creative, very technical/by the book engineering mindset (coincidentally, I work in engineering). She was very extroverted, super artsy/creative, and had a very "take it as it comes" approach to things. The differences were ultimately too great to make things last, though had we never dated, we probably could have been friends. My current SO still has some of those qualities, but is more down to earth and realistic in her goals and expectations thankfully.

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Living in the United Socialist States of America.

little_tippler

I think it's normal to forge closer bonds with people who you understand and who understand you better.

I'd say total polar opposite friends are possible, though it's harder if the issues are important ethical or moral ones.

I have at least one friend who I've grown to love to bits who I once considered cutting off completely. For the simple reason that her attitude to life was very different to my own and I couldn't understand or appreciate it.

At the time, my mother gave me some good advice: not all friends have to be best friends. It doesn't matter if they don't fit your expectations of a friend. If you still like them despite their flaws, and your life is better with them around, it's ok to let petty differences go.

__________________
Whether we write or speak or do but look
We are ever unapparent. What we are
Cannot be transfused into word or book.
Our soul from us is infinitely far.
However much we give our thoughts the will
To be our soul and gesture it abroad,
Our hearts are incommunicable still.
In what we show ourselves we are ignored.
The abyss from soul to soul cannot be bridged
By any skill of thought or trick of seeming.
Unto our very selves we are abridged
When we would utter to our thought our being.
We are our dreams of ourselves, souls by gleams,
And each to each other dreams of others' dreams.

Fernando Pessoa, 1918

The Faba

Sounds like they were kinda D-Bags...

Just a personal thought of mine.

abaya

Sure, and I agree with that. I have very few "best" friends, for this reason. But as you said, when it comes to serious moral and ethical issues, I just can't get that intimate with friends who don't share those values. I wish I could, but I just can't hold back on what I really think when I'm around them... I like to discuss issues, all the time.

Thing is, are politics a "petty" issue, or a moral/ethical one? I used to think they were petty... but this year, I'm starting to feel like they are a much more serious issue in terms of determining how deep I can go into a friendship.

Also, Snowy mentioned class (that was honest--thank you, I had forgotten to mention that as well). Funny, for me I actually have a harder time relating to upper-class people, for example the new friends we have here who gladly admitted to spending $50,000 on their wedding day. I have had a hard time connecting with them for that reason, and more, that are related to their spending judgments. To me, the way you spend money reveals your personal values as well--and whether I realize it at the time or not, I do judge when someone has totally opposite spending values than I do. I guess I don't know if that's so much a class thing, as a saving/spending thing... I can connect with rich people who save carefully and don't flash their money around, and who do most of their own work (house, car, garden maintenance, etc), because those values are similar to my own, I guess.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

curiousbear

Yes we do.
I have very few friends. They are 11 of them. And one is already gone. And I dint include my mom and wife (they are friends too). I meet some of them only once in few years because we live far away. Except one of them others dont have SIMILAR and SAME point of view about many things.

In fact during my university days people use to wonder how we could be so extremely different, egoistic, opinionated and still be so close. Even after 10 years we all still meet for new year.

Our ideology, traits, preferences, taste, beliefs all are very different.
How ever core values are same. That is the catch. Here values I mean by truth, respect, dignity, trust and stuff like that.

Catdaddy33

I live in the very red state of TN and for those friendships that I have I typically shy away from talking politics with those that are in the "red", it's tough at this time with the election but it's doable. I do have friends (and my spouse) that have similar positions so I do talk with them. I have run in with a few over the years that will not shut up and want to argue and I typically stop all personal communication (still have to work with a couple), if you cant respect my opinions and beliefs, I don't need them in my life.

I typically have the rule of not talking religion or politics with people I don't know very well. If the subject comes up I either casually change the subject and if they cant take the hint I ask to change the subject with the ole "I have my beliefs and nothing you can say will change them" if that doesn't work I clam up or leave if possible.

Cynthetiq

Yes, I do, just as I have friends who have deeply different religious views of mine.

To be honest, I don't share them with others. It's open for discussion, we can discuss them. I'm very happy to discuss my opinions and values with friends.

But ask me who I'm voting for? No, we won't discuss that because I take my vote very seriously AND the idea that it is secret ballot. So why wear it on my sleeve?

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Poppinjay

I've had a very good conservative Christian teetotaling friend who actually lists his church phone number because that's where he's at most of the time.

It was a while before I learned not to pick up the bait he would throw occasionally.

But he was quality folks.

__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

Cernunnos

Holding an opposite system of values would limit the potential closeness of a relationship. In my experience, the ability to relate to one another is integral to the development of a true friendship. If you are able to connect on nearly every topic that arises during conversation, it's highly likely that you will find yourself gravitating towards that person and wishing to keep them as a part of your life.

On those topics that you disagree on, you may be more inclined to genuinely listen to their arguments and openly consider altering your own positions, whereas with someone who maintains radically different values than you, their suggestions will be scrutinized and taken with a far greater level of resistance.

Is it possible to maintain a highly developed relationship with someone who has an opposite value system? Certainly, but you're probably not going to fall into one. I've found that those relationships are the result of forced interaction, such as growing up together during childhood, or working together on a long term project that requires constant communication. You must learn to look past the differences and find the few positions that can be compromised on and are perhaps shared.

In everyday life, if interaction with a particular person is not necessary, their value system must align with yours for a friendship to develop. Primarily in cases where interaction is forced do polar opposite friendships develop.

Appreciating someone for who they are (in spite of perceived flaws and differences) is not a passive act when their exterior does not conform to your preferences. You will probably walk away before reaching a friendship level and being able to connect.

Willravel

I've got a Denny Crane to my Allan Shore. It works not because of what separates us, but the ties of loyalty, trust, and respect. Those surpass ideology and philosophy, they have to.

abaya

I find it difficult to respect and trust someone who sincerely believes that I am going to hell, or that I am voting for the anti-Christ. I mean, that is just a fundamental disrespect of who *I* am, personally. And loyalty feels overrated to me, sometimes... it too often boils down to nostalgia and "shared history." I guess I'm just picky.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Willravel

84% of my country thinks I'll burn in hell after I die. Most of them have the good sense not to say it to my face, anyone that does gets the full rationalism argument with all the bells and whistles for being rude. Still, I don't like holding just being religious against people, it's not right. I hold actions against people, not ideology or philosophy.

Loyalty is something that comes with established trust for me. It's not just shared history, it's the attitude that develops from established respect and trust.

BTW, I'll see you in atheist heaven. I'll bring the mojitos.

abaya

Carefuly, Will... I didn't say that I held being religious against anyone. Very far from it. What I'm talking about in this thread is the cultivating of intimate, very close friendships... people I would call at 3am in an emergency, etc... a very select group of people, the ones I want close to me in a time of need. Not the general population, or what I think of my next-door neighbor, or who I have lunch with from work, etc. Those people's ideologies and philosophy are of little concern to me.

It's my 3 closest friends' beliefs/values/philosophies that matter most to me. One of them is mainstream evangelical, another is a cradle-Catholic, and the 3rd is an atheist (and for the record, I won't see you in atheist heaven, because I'm not an atheist). But none of them believe that I am going to hell (I certainly don't think any of them are), none of them ever talk or act that way, they are all voting Democrat, always have... and we agree almost completely on the Really Big Issues. I truly don't know how I would be able to confide everything in them, without knowing that we agree on those core issues.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Willravel

I don't hold friends t a higher standard of philosophy than the general population. I hold their trust and respect higher. One of my best friends in the world is voting for John McCain. I disagree with him, but it's his vote. I have another friend that's devout Muslim, and Islam does not have a good deal of respect for atheists. He saw past his own philosophies in our friendship because he values who I am. He could be right and I could burn forever, but that's not relevant to our friendship. He doesn't proselytize (as it'd be a big waste of time), but we do talk about religion and the nature of things. And we disagree, a lot. That doesn't damage our friendship, though. It strengthens it, actually. He's also a free market capitalist, and I'm a lot more socialist. We've had some knock down drag out debates. And we both have a blast. At the end we agree to disagree and the friendship is even stronger than it was before. Ah, but I just made up atheist heaven so I make the rules. Everybody gets in, even cynthetiq.

Supple Cow

There was this recent episode of House where a guy ribs Dr. House about not knowing how friendship works... how you trust without absolute evidence and then you are rewarded for that trust. I really believe in that paradigm of friendship, so maybe that's what has made this thread so difficult for me to deal with. The whole concept of this question upsets me; it has been upsetting me on some level for days.

I wasn't always this way, but I learned quickly when I saw how things played out for me in the last few years. Most of the friends I shared so many values with once were the first ones to jump ship when I grew up, examined things for myself and came to hold different values and beliefs. Then there were the few who surprised me and rewarded me for taking a chance on sharing the new me with them. These were the friends who looked at me like I was crazy as I revealed that I had been nervous to tell them certain things about my life. They were the friends who hugged me and said, "Well, yeah, it might suck if something bad happens to you because of your new ideas, but why would I ever get mad at you for being who you are?" They are the ones I call to rescue me in the middle of the night when I run out of AAA service calls for the year and I am stuck on the highway without gas. They are the ones I call on unexpectedly when I feel lost or as if I've committed a terrible blunder. And I would get out of bed at 3am and drive an hour to pick them up if they got stranded without gas too. Unfortunately, they are spread all over the country, so I can really only do that for one or two of them, but my point stands.

Beyond this essence of our friendships, if I had to categorize them by their views on just about anything besides whether they respect and like me and want to be my friend, I have friends that run the gamut. They are all my polar opposite in one way or another and they are all my peers in another way. One of my friends is a loud proponent of non-violence; another of my friends has a conceal and carry permit, with a pistol strapped to his leg at all times. Some of my friends are very religious and others are atheists. Some of my friends are very scientific and find non-scientists wishy-washy while other friends find science dry and boring, choosing to live an artistic life. Some are cat people, some are dog people, some are allergic to both. What does it all matter in the end? Each day that we remain friends, it only matters that we still like each other and treat each other with respect. If we really do, we learn not to get into heated discussions about the things we simply don't agree about. It's not as if this universe is such a boring place that avoiding certain topics leaves us with nothing to do or say in each other's company.

__________________
"I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. Twenty-six times I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed."
(Michael Jordan)

snowy

Ahem...your "atheist heaven" doesn't sound too different from my idea of a conventional heaven

When it comes to friends and religion, I find I often get along better with atheists and agnostics than other people of faith; however, there are notable exceptions, and it really depends on the tolerance level of the other person. My best friends in high school were both committed Christians, one Catholic, one evangelical, but they were both very tolerant people. I have a good friend now who is a devoted Catholic, but one of the things that drives her in life is to get to know others who are not like she is, plus she's a passionate scientist. So long as a person is still interested in critical thought, I'm interested in getting to know them. Faith and critical thought are not necessarily mutually exclusive, but it's been my experience that for some people, they are.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Willravel

Even Cynthetiq?

Heaven for me is living a life I can be proud of and looking back on that before the end of my life. And Chopin.

/heavenjack

levite

Sure. Two of my closest friends are Republicans-- one of whom is also ultra-Orthodox, and one is a Republican-leaning Independent. One of my best friends is an Anarchist agnostic with atheist leanings who is so far to the left of me that he'd need a 2-hour motorcycle ride from Che just to make it back to "liberal."

The two Republicans and the Independent and I were just very careful not to discuss politics until we had other supports for our friendship, and we already trusted one another very much. The Anarchist just accepts that nobody agrees with him, politically, and he is respectful about the religion thing.

If people make efforts on both sides, you can get along with lots of different sorts. It just takes some care.

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

Willravel

Yeah, that kinda goes with the territory, heh.

Abaya: Levite is a good example, actually. He and I clearly have varied views of religion, but I'm sure we'd get along just fine in the real world. So I'm not Jewish? So he's not agnostic? I don't see that as causing a rift unless either he or I took ourselves too seriously. Instead of proselytizing one another to death, we could have open-minded discussions. Not only that, but we could discuss all of the other things that interest us. I'd get bored with a Willravel clone, and I suspect that you'd get tired of an Abaya clone. And constantly chasing her away from ktsp would be exhausting.

thespian86

Shit, at my age, everything is new still and everything sounds true. I try very much not to become to committed to any methodologies or philosophies. On the other hand, who am I kidding, I argue till I'm blue in the face.

That is my point. Everyone my age works that way, they take their own roads but it's essentially the same thing. Everything changing, everything is true.

Meh. So I deal.

__________________
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ME: I officially love coffee more then you now.
EX: uh...
ME: So, not much.

dlish

will levite is that sort of person that you can talk to on many different topics. he makes sense and puts fair arguments across, though he does have strong views about his faith.

other people who may hold strong(er) beliefs may be more condescending.

it is much easier to keep friends with the same views though rather than tried really hard with those that dont.

bird of a feather flock together

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

Ch'i

A good friend of mine and I tend to strongly disagree half the time. Throughout the course of us arguing and debating it has never become a point of contention between us as friends. If anything, its somewhat benifitial to have someone to disagree with so often; we enrich each other's knowledge while at the same time enhancing our abilities to properly convey exactly what we mean to say, ect.

Sometimes agreeing too much can be a troublesome; my brother willravel and I stand so similarly in opinion on so many things that I often post only to add a different perspective. This thread for instance, I almost posted exactly what he did.

abaya

This is what I'm talking about. Maybe "values" was the wrong word... but when I mean value, I mean friends who are not going to judge me for changing my mind, and who I basically trust to make ethical decisions in their own lives and not hurt people around them. Problematically, the "friend" I mentioned in the OP (who is voting McCain, for reasons she has failed to help me understand so far) also stood me up when I was driving across the country, after 3 months of planning to meet up with her on the way... and that hurt, a lot. And that colors our interaction as well, not just from the political disagreement but the fact that she committed a major friend foul and disappointed me with her behavior.

Anyway, I agree with you Supple, the friends I had in undergrad shared the same "values" (evangelical Christianity) with me at the time, but once I started to explore other perspectives, they pretty much ditched me. I did not appreciate that. It was just those 3 best friends of mine who had seen me go from agnostic to religious and back to agnostic again, and they couldn't have cared less what I was about... they supported me and did not judge, and I did the same for them. We are always there for each other... we never "stood each other up," as this old friend of mine recently did. We know that when we call upon each other, we are there for each other. And for me, that's a shared "value" that my other friend did not have... who did not even think it was worth calling me to let me know that she couldn't meet me, on my cross-country drive where I went out of my way to meet her as planned. I find that frankly rude.

Looking at the responses, though, I wonder if for perhaps some women, the way we conduct our best friendships differs from that of how some men do it. I've noticed that for ktsp and his friends, for example, there isn't a huge need to agree on big things, or to talk very intimately about things every time they meet... there's a lot of hanging out, shooting the shit, maybe arguing about politics, playing pool, having a beer, etc. It's a very different dynamic than I have with my best girl friends, because with them we basically sit and talk, and go very deep into the details, decisions, and judgments of our lives since we last talked, the conflicts over what to do or what not to do, analyzing every possibly angle of everything, talking about emotions and making ourselves vulnerable with each other. We trust each other to be vulnerable about everything when we get together, and even though we're having fun and watching a movie or something, it always comes down to the sharing and talking dynamic.

So for me, I would have a hard time connecting at that level with a friend if (for example) she told me she was cheating on her husband, or marrying someone for his money, or who didn't possess any critical thinking skills (as Snowy mentioned earlier)... because for me, those are all things that I just can't go along and support her on, and it would throw a barrier between our intimacy, somehow. It doesn't mean we wouldn't be friends/acquaintances, or that I wouldn't still care for that person, but I could not be *very* close to someone who thought that way, who thought it was alright to hurt people she loved, who valued money over all else, or who did not think critically for herself about important issues.

I'm rambling now, but my point (Will!) is that hey, not everyone is going to conduct their relationships in the same way. I'm not looking for an argument about the "best way to have friends" on this thread. I'm just curious about how many people do have close, intimate friends with vastly different philosophies/ideologies/what have you, and how many do not. That's all. For me, my method of friendship works, and after 20+ years with these girls, I don't see that changing anytime soon.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

levite

Damn straight! I'd knock one back and shoot the shit with you any time, Will!

Thanks, D! That's really decent of you to say! And also a fair call on the last point. Needless to say (although clearly I will anyhow), I think the same might be said of you, in regard to the making sense and being someone easy to talk to on many subjects....

How much do you guys rock?!

Totally feeling the love in the room....

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

northstar

It all depends on what is important to you and your relationships. I think if someone is the polar opposite of your core fundamental values and beliefs then it is virtually impossible for you to maintain a genuine close relationship with them. As far as religion and politics, it all depends on the other person. I easily navigate with conservative and liberal friends, since I grew up a conservative and like the statistics say, was made liberal by higher education. Religion is a topic I tend to stay away from, I'd rather not shatter the dreams of people who still haven't rationally thought out the Bible.

I agree with abaya, if one of my close friends was constantly cheating on his girl or somehow hurting or using other people then I would have to rethink my relationship with them. Maybe I'd still hang out with them but I wouldn't hold them in the same regard and know that they would screw me over if it meant getting themselves ahead.

Iliftrocks

Shouldn't we surround ourselves with people who do not agree with us? Doesn't it keep us honest in our beliefs, to have them questioned? Would we question ourselves if there were not these natural checks and balances with other people in our lives?

The only problem I have, with people with different views, does come from the lack of respect for my right to have a view. It's hard to find people who can disagree respectfully, or even try to back up their point of view with anything but talking points and punditry. People tend to keep the "values" of their parents and never think about why. They will also defend these "values" with tooth and nail.

I can get along, and indeed have some kind of friendship with almost anybody. I just have to look for common grounds. We are all human, and we have families we love, and for the most part, everyone really wants the best for their fellow human being. Start there and work your way up.

__________________
bill hicks - "I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out."

ShaniFaye

I have a couple of close friends I do absolutely anything for and would be devestated where they not in my life, they are democrats and atheists and you cant get much more opposite of me than that lol

our friendship works because we each respect that the other is entitled to believe (or not believe) how they wish and we dont think less of each other for it

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