mixedmedia

So irregardless (heh) of the span of human behavioral evolution we are now at a standstill that nothing short of mass castration will change.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Jinn

I really don't know why I'm bothering, since I think this will fall on dead ears, or you're just using it as a ploy to frame me as a crazy liberal. It's hard to *demonstrate* modern day sexism in a forum, simply because most is nonverbally discriminatory, or verbally sexist (but not recorded). I will not deny that it has decreased, simply because it's become unpopular. If we can make it even less unpopular, it might continue to decrease.

You could tell me to lighten up (again) or tell me that these are all jokes. But if you were a little girl, say.. 8 or 9, what would this teach you about yourself? A child is easier for demonstrative purposes, but the "lessons" do not stop as we age. We're constantly learning our "roles" in society based on how our peers and our media present us.







"He's a Stud, She's a Slut, and 49 Other Double Standards Every Woman Should Know " -

I'll understand that these don't seem serious to you, simply because you don't take the issue of sexism or racism seriously. It doesn't exist to you, so naturally these won't be terribly effective.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

mixedmedia

Wow. Thank you, Jinn.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Jinn

I can't find the whole video, but here's part of Dreamworlds II. It's worth watching.



And here's a preview of DW3.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Willravel

Jinnkai: serial exaggerator.

"I'd hit it." is not some terrible symptom of sexism in society. It's a combination of sexual attraction and childishness. Sexism is hatred and intolerance. Can you see the difference?

Ustwo

If will and I agree on something, its either got to be right or horrifically wrong.

I'm putting the safe money on 'right' in this case.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Jinn

I'm not equating the two, but it, like all other things you seem to think are innocuous, are parts of the whole. You seem to think that the only types of sexism are overt and obvious to the casual observer.

Out of curiosity, will, did you watch the videos?

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Ustwo

Pretty much, and its womens fault too. If you have sex with the omega males more than the alpha males things could be different.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

ShaniFaye

I really wonder why I ever bother to add my opinion to things anymore.....

I guess a female that doesnt have a problem with it doesnt merit discussion?

oh well

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

mixedmedia

I fucked my share of omega males, thank you very much, and I gave birth to three women. So maybe we are all doomed.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Willravel

Not yet, I've been on the phone all morning (I'm at work).

When I look at your posts, I see sexism very clearly, but those examples stand in contrast to "I'd hit it".

Shani's opinion always merits discussion!

Shani doesn't have a problem with it: discuss.

ShaniFaye

eh, sorry...I shouldnt have posted that, it just irked me my post was skipped over...dont mind me I just got news of a death in the family and Im upset

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Ustwo

But did you have children with one? Thats the part that matters.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Jinn

"I'd hit it" in rap songs:


You think Dexter has a sister?
Yea, I bet she smokin like chesnuts on an open fire..
I'd hit that, I'd hit that, I'd hit that.. I'd hit that.
*chanting* I'd hit that..

This is from one of the largest entertainment companies in the WORLD.

And this lovely little gem from "www.idhitit.org":

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

mixedmedia

Of course, I did. Why else would I make that statement? But, of course, I was making a joke.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

abaya

I'm all about the omega males... and yes, we intend to reproduce.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

vanblah

OK, Jinn. You've shown us examples of sexism in the Media. And I am NOT denying that it happens outside of the media as well ... as in EVERYDAY life. But you have YET to offer any constructive method for "fixing" the problem ... except for this:

I'll assume you meant "less popular" rather than "less UNpopular."

However, anytime we marginalize a part of society we tend to create "underdogs." In this case, making it UNPOPULAR might make it trendy again and then it becomes mainstream again--with regard to the MEDIA of course ... I don't think it will ever be "trendy" to really degrade a person.

Like I said in previous posts ... I still think the ONLY cure for this disease is education ... and that both genders share an equal responsibility in that education.

To paraphrase a quote from someone I can't remember ... blast some sunshine on the subject and kill all the mildew.

Jinn

From my OP:

The reason I haven't offered a solution is I don't have a damned clue, other than to avoid these types of expressions. I started this thread with the express purpose of discussing ways to encourage without objectifying, but that's not where it ended up, obviously. I erroneously assumed that the majority of posters would agree with my premise that "I'd hit it" has an effect like I described. That's where I was wrong. It was evidently much more interesting to discuss whether "I'd hit it" was offensive, rather than what we could use in its stead.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Willravel

Of all the rap lyrics out there that are sexist, you go after "I'd hit that"?

Your priorities are all off.

abaya

Vanblah, I asked this question in post #43, didn't get much reply... I saw it as a positive way to try and change the conversation, at least on the male side:In fact, throughout my posts I have attempted to NOT group "all men as pigs," instead saying that I believe men are better than that. But many of those responding to this thread seemed to insist that they were, in fact, NOT above that level... and to quit expecting them to be any more advanced, so I'd better just lighten up and get over it. So I'd like to say that I think men deserve a lot more respect than they get re: this topic, but it seems that few *want* to rise to that level of respect/responsibility and act accordingly.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Willravel

Just to clarify, I don't know anyone who doesn't say "I'd hit that" in jest. It's something goofy ass people do, like calling their friends "homies" or "playa". It's a topical satirical jibe at popular culture, if anything.

pan6467

Forgive me fr coming in not reading much and adding my 2 cents.

"I'd hit that", "I'd tap that" and so on are just wrong, IMHO.

Unless you are into S&M love making should be just that. Yes, a truly good fuck may sometimes be needed, but violence is not necessary and should not have to be referred to.

You see a women you'd do, say, I'd do her. But to have to use violent words to describe an action of pleasure with a woman is kind of oxymoronic and shows little class, to me at least.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

abaya

Actually, I'd have to say that it might be something that goofy ass *white* people do, perhaps to jibe and/or imitate popular *black* culture... but that's another topic altogether, eh?

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

pan6467

So someone just trying to make conversation here shouldn't comment on anything, unless their priorities are up to your standards?

I find that rather elitist and very rude thinking.

You didn't need to comment or visit this thread.

//threadjack

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Jinn

Will, you CONSISTENTLY make the mistake of equating you and your peer group with the entire world.

The sheer existence of ONE person who does not use "I'd hit that" in jest, or one who is even thinking something non-hilarious when saying it acts as a counterpoint.

Just because you don't feel you're actively participating in racism or sexism, just because you don't think that anyone doesn't use it anything but jest, doesn't make it so. Not everything can be simplified to "intution" based anecdotes from your personal experience.

And as for priorities, I selected those because they were topical. I recognize that there are far worse lyrics, but they don't contain "I'd hit it," so they weren't as on-topic.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

vanblah

Do you see the sanctimony in that statement? "Men are better than that."

I know that you probably don't intend it to sound sanctimonious but it really can come across that way.

As well as the fact that it STILL puts the male gender in control: men have to change the way they act so that women don't get offended.

The fact is, change must happen on BOTH sides here. Men DO need to change the way they act with regard to women just as much as women need to change they way they RE-act to the male pattern of behavior. The reverse is also true: Women need to change the way they act and men need to change the way they RE-act to the female pattern of behavior.

powerclown

Dude, you need to be giving women more credit than that. Having to live with the likes of us men for thousands of years has made them pretty damn resilient.

vanblah

According to this thread ... no it hasn't.

Willravel

Touche. Still, it's more about making fun of ourselves for not having a culture to speak of instead of making fun of another culture.
Whoa, whoa, stop the thread. I've offended Pan. Everyone can go home, sorry for ruining everything.

When does the old Pan come back?
I was speaking more in reference to the topic of the whole thread. So far as racism goes in any part of any society, "Id' hit it" is quite benign. You demonstrated it above with the offensive Dolce, panties, jewelry, and condom ads, and then again by mentioning that rap lyrics are offensive. There are racist parts of our society and they need to be addressed. "Id' hit it" seems to be on the bottom of that list, though.

Why don't we do it this way:
Of all the ladies here on TFP, who here is MOST offended by "I'd hit it"? For whom is that simply the most sexist thing you could ever experience? And for whom is it simply either annoying or something you could care less about?

Leto

It is very commonplace in media, and I'm sure in the youth culture. But I rarely have heard it used in peer conversation. Most of my peer conversation tends to occur amongst colleagues, where such discussion is unprofessional and rarely happens, or amongst fellow parents at activities such as school/sports gatherings.

when I was younger we used similar terms, but employed the more crude work "fuck" for "hit". EG: "I'd fuck that" or " I would most definitely fuck that".

Of course this was all happening in dream land because there was no way that any girl that came under our scrutiny would ever give us the time of day. Maybe this is what generates such behaviour in the first place.

vanblah

With regard to the "I'd hit it," phenomenon. It's actually a VERY small percentage of male bonding (there's also farting, cursing, drinking, fighting, sports, music, the list goes on).

It only seems to be huge because sex sells ... so does violence and any extreme form of behavior.

It's akin to the fear and sensationalized media reports about shark attacks every Summer. How many people go swimming in the ocean? How many shark attacks are there?

I agree that ANY number (of shark attacks or sexist behavior) is tragic, and yes ... unlike shark attacks to an extent ... we CAN work to change this mode of OUTWARD behavior. But men will most likely NEVER stop objectifying everything around them (not just women).

Cars for instance, it's not just a way to get from point A to point B ... its the cool factor. Men objectify cars just like everything else.

This may not apply to you (it certainly doesn't to me ... I could care less about cars ... in fact I ride a bike) ... but you get the point. I'm sure there are some things that you objectify ... if not women and cars. And I'll bet you had to WORK ON the "not objectifying women thing." I catch myself EVERYDAY furtively glancing at women around me and "sizing them up."

Jinn

Cars are already objects. They don't need to be objectified. Women are humans. When they are objectified, they are de-humanized. You can't objectify an object.

Basically you're saying that because you don't perceive it to be a big concern, it isn't? I don't think its the biggest concern either, but that doesn't mean we have to ignore it because there are worse problems.

Why does this matter? Even if every woman on TFP said it wasn't a concern, that doesn't mean it isn't. I could find you handfuls of women who wouldn't think it was a problem at my local University. They've also don't think they have any option but to be a housewife. For them, the University is just a finishing school where they can meet their new "man."

Aberkok said it best..

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Willravel

No, I'm saying that a lot of people, even a majority it seems (see thread posts), don't seem to see this as a big deal, Jinn.
So you're only speaking on behalf of women who've taken a sociology class? I'm afraid you've lost me. We have a vibrant female community here on TFP, and you're (I think) trying to defend women. Maybe we should ask them if they think they need defending? I mean Shani has already said she didn't care, and Shani is important. MM said she found it a bit offensive, and Abaya did too, but they didn't mention how offensive it was in the grand scheme of sexism in our society.

vanblah

You are correct, of course, but the sentiment is the same.

Also, from my favorite source the OED: <i> To express (something abstract) in a concrete form </i>

So, rather than cars ... I'll change my statement to the <i>idea<i> of cars.

mixedmedia

Neither. As Jinn says, I see it (and lots of other less than admirable qualities in people) as symptomatic of a bigger problem. You really should watch the videos when you get home and try to imagine how 'i'd hit that' and other phrases and attitudes have trickled down (up?) into our popular culture and that by utilizing them you are still perpetuating and legitimizing the less than hysterical origins that they came from.

And vanblah, you are right that both men and women need to change how they are approaching and contributing to this problem. For the woman's part, I would think the biggest contribution they could make would be to stop allowing themselves to be objectified for money. That's not to say that women shouldn't be sexual and desirable, but somewhere along the line we sold away our right to control where and when we are seen as objects. Yes, this has always gone on to some extent, but somewhere along the line between pin-ups and wolf-whistles and today we lost our option to decide whether we want to play an active part in it or not because sexual objectification is so commonplace. The stimulation for the behavior is out there, everywhere. Therefore we have men today who see these habits as an entitlement and women, like me, who are kind baffled by it because we didn't see it coming. No pun intended.

This is in direct conflict with will's assertion that every guy he knows is doing it. Perhaps with the men you know and hang out with it is not commonplace, but within other groups it is virtually de rigeur.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Ustwo

Don't forget ngdawg said she likes it

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Willravel

No, no, not every guy. Only a few, and only in jest.

abaya

Maybe a poll would be a good way to see to this. A poll with options for both men and women, and the extent to which they agree with "I'd hit it" being an offensive term. Incidentally, I just heard on BBC today that somewhere in the UK a construction company has banned wolf-whistling at women--and BBC asked a bunch of local women what they thought. Several said, "I'd love it! I haven't had that kind of attention in years!", but most said "Yeah, I don't like the PC police, but I like it even less when I'm looking to buy a new house and someone wolf-whistles at me." So, there is a variety of responses on the part of women to subjects like that, imagine.
In the grand scheme of sexism that I happen upon as a PhD student who interacts with Thai women most of the time (most of whom are in far more oppressive gender situations than I will EVER be)?... no, it is not hugely offensive, but it does instruct me on the character of people and who I choose to spend my time with.

However, in the grand scheme of, say, the Portuguese women who work in the canteen of the construction workers' site in downtown Reykjavik where I went to the other day, who most likely hears those kinds of comments on a daily basis, and has learned to NOT react to it in order to protect herself from further jabs and jeers?... yes, comments like these are no small thing. That's called learned helplessness, and is a form of oppression. From the brief conversation I had with one Portuguese woman about working there (in broken English), she's grown callous to the men's comments and tries not to pay attention anymore. So is that how women are supposed to "learn" how to react to this kind of behavior?

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

powerclown

And every woman who's posted in this thread has posted nude pics of themselves here. All hail the rational irrationality of women.

Ustwo

And yet the vast majority of TFP thinks prostitution should be legal and its not a big deal. So which is it? Pretty much nothing says 'object' and 'money' like prostitution.

You want to remove that stimulation? Try a burka, and yet oddly in those cultures women have absolutely no status what so ever unless they are attached to a male, be it her father, her brothers, or her husband.

Instead of getting upset in the whole thing, embrace it. Women who understand sex and sex appeal are the powerful ones, use it to your advantage knowing mens nature instead of wishing men acted more like your girlfriends.

To quote a stripper I talked to a few years ago, 'Men are stupid.' From her perspective she was correct, the men she dealt with were stupid, and she would make over a $1000 a night for just having fun and dancing around while denying them sex.

You don't have to play a part of course, claiming you do is not true, I doubt many 'plain Janes' get objectified, so lose the make up, forget the hair style, go utilitarian, and bow out if its so bad.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.