Jinn

They'd rather not lose their right to "sexually express" themselves by using this sort of language. It would impede on their ability to build comradarie with their 'boys', and after all - it's completely natural. Men in the past have objectified women, so certainly men of today should be allowed the same courtesy. It's clearly an inherent trait in men, one that cannot be impeded in the name of civility. Objectification happens, so you should just get over it.

Furthermore, your and my belief that its common acceptance as "OK" is systemic, and indicative of a much larger problem of harassment and abuse is ridiculous, and we should "get over it."

Oh, and finally - becuase they themselves would be FLATTERED by a woman saying "I'd hit that," you and other females should either (a) use that to your advantage, manipulating men with your sexual wiles or (b) be flattered by it, too.

It just sounds so silly when I say it..

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Halx

I'm not being facetious here.

I have this thing I personally call "Real Communication" that happens between all the words that we say. So for instance, I could say, "I'd hit it," but what I really am saying is, "I don't usually like to use a dumb phrase to express my attraction, but in this case, I cant think of anything better (or it just came out...)." So what we have here is 3 words instead of a long neurotic monologue.

Knowing that my "Real Communication" is virtually silent to all around me, I reflect this understanding on others. That is why when I hear or read someone saying something idiotic, I usually don't care. Because I'm sure they have one of 50 different reasons for having said THAT instead of something interesting. The common ones are: fitting in, brevity, and impact.

So with all that said, I'd like to emanate my cool, calm chilled out demeanor to everyone in this thread and insist that none of this really means as much as you're reacting like it does.

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filtherton

Every time I see an ad for taco bell, I make sure to point out to anyone in the vicinity how, if given the opportunity, I would eat that. Every time I see a nice car drive by I make sure to point out how, if given the opportunity, I would drive that. Every time my friends and I are watching Duck Tales together and we see Scrooge McDuck swimming in his vault full of golden coins I make sure to point out how, if given the opportunity, I would do that (have that much money).

In general, I like to point out how I would enjoy doing things that are generally considered enjoyable using phrases I learned from local fraternity members, because I know how to make interesting conversation. Also, with regards to "hitting it", I like deluding myself with unrealistic or fantastical notions of sexual conquest.

I have also found that when discussing pictures of attractive women on the internet it is important to make sure everyone else who happens to read the discussion knows that I would, in fact, have sexual relations with the attractive woman in question. Because you just never know. What if she happens to stumble on the discussion at a later date, starved for the cock? What if I hadn't made public my open stance on sexual relations with her? I'll tell you what: she wouldn't see me as a viable option for sexual activity. Consequently, we would never have sex. It's all very simple.

The same goes for random women I see when I'm out and about and also celebrities. Someone must know that I would fuck them-- that's not the kind of information that I, nor anyone else, should just leave bottled up.

Martian

Exactly!

Wait, hang on here...

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Esoteric

What is the big issue here?

It's a compliment on someone's sexual attractiveness in the simplest form. Majority of the time the person it's directed towards doesn't even hear it. I really don't understand the big deal.

__________________
From a head full of pressure rests the senses that I clutch
Made a date with Divinity, but she wouldn't let me fuck
I got touched by a hazy shaded, God help me change
Caught a rush on the floor from the life in my veins

Ustwo

I don't understand your reaction tothis seems awful personal to you when it seems pretty general to me.


It is accepted in society, the fact that about 5 people who type fast can make 6 pages on it in a day or so doesn't mean its a major controversy. I'm not sure what the implications of this is in your mind, but to me its a face value thing. People like to have sex with people and those people are willing to expess this desire using a catch phrase. Thats about it.

Thats a matter of opinion, I'm not complaining that society is wrong, you have the beef, I'm just baffled with your reaction to it.

TFP exhibition has had a good number of such pictures, its not far fetched to bring them up as an example. In all fairness the women who HAVE done some risque pictures don't seem to have a problem with anything here either. If they did then my statement would apply. I'm not even sure who you are defending and you have yet to say what this 'explotation' is, so I'll assume it was just the wrong choise of words when you were being a tad melodramatic.

You can maintain this opinion, I have another. My inital reaction was to Jins rant about sexism in society etc which just seemed a bit off the hook. On the other hand I'm not even sure what you are arguing anymore. Is is that 'I'd hit it' is somehow a metaphor for voilence against women? Is it an assault against human nature in turning women into sex objects in the eyes of men? That women should be free from sexual judgement? Just what is the core of your argument? I have lost it somewhere.

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Jinn

And that, quite precisely, is why it is a big deal.

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Willravel

And this is exactly why it's not a big deal.

Hektore

Lets suppose I were to grant the point that 'i'd tap that' and other associated phrases sexually objectify women to precisely the same extent as advertising,music videos, etc. I don't see the huge revelation here. It's a necessity of language. In order to express sexual desire about something you have to objectify the something which is the object of your desires.

Perhaps another example is in order, take the sentence: "I would run a mile." In it, you dimensionally objectify the distance you are going to run. You have to in order to make sense, or at least to give the sentence some meaning. - "I would run." is (arguably) meaningless.

I think many people skip these steps and intuit straight to the conclusion, that in order to stop sexually objectifying women (or anything else), we have to stop commenting about anything sexual, in any meaningful way. If you take the proverbial group of frat boys and one of them says 'I'm horny' it isn't a real conversation starter, they're all horny. Not that this in any ways is an attempt to claim the ends justify the means, just one problem that presents itself.

This would present another, much bigger problem in that, how then does one make a sexual advance toward a woman, if you cannot objectify her? Even if you wanted to make the argument that welcomed objectification is acceptable while unwelcome objectification is not, how then is one to determine if an advance is welcome or unwelcome before it is made? It would seem that the argument some of you are trying to make, when carried out to it's full extent, makes the pursuit of a mate impossible.

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Esoteric

Seriously. I guess I just don't understand.

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Made a date with Divinity, but she wouldn't let me fuck
I got touched by a hazy shaded, God help me change
Caught a rush on the floor from the life in my veins

Willravel

It's only a big deal to Jinn. So far no one else has said it was a big deal, including every woman who has posted in this thread. Jinn is defending himself if he were a woman, only because he's not a woman he really doesn't seem to understand what deeply offends women. He assumes because this is disrespectful and maybe a little sexist that it's a big deal. I mean clearly it's not, based on the ladies of TFP, but that doesn't seem to matter to him.

Lasereth

News flash: every man on the planet scopes out a female and decides whether he would "hit it" whether he says it outloud or not. It's not meant to be rude, it's simply a man declaring whether he thinks a woman is attractive or not outloud.

I don't think it's appropriate to say it to a woman's face or loud enough for anyone but the person you're talking to. Not sure if women do the same thing but I wouldn't be offended or surprised if they do.

It's just the nature of men.

abaya

Clearly? How many ladies have been posting in response to this thread? I can only think of a handful... and between the 5 or so of us who have responded, we're definitely not in agreement even among ourselves. Obviously that's not the vast majority of women on this board, Will. Take a poll before you make this kind of statement... and then maybe this discussion might have a point again.

Consider why not many women are even bothering to post on these threads, or TFP in general, anymore... what's the point, really?

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Jinn

As I man, I'm fucking tired of hearing "It's just the nature of men." Or "All men do it." or "Men have always done it."

Here's your news flash: not all men are alike. By implying all men do it, you likewise imply that I am NOT a man for failing to do so.

I'm capable of separating my carnal thoughts from the words I utter, the products I make, and the marketing I use for them. Yes, I ENJOY HAVING SEX WITH FEMALES. Doesn't mean I have to make offensive assertions, regardless of whether or not another man thinks it is offensive. For me, it's called self control, and it's called social conscience. Even if it only offends 1 out of every 10 women, I'm making a positive contribution to society with little to no effort on my part, rather than justifying to myself that it's either not offensive, or so minor an issue that I shouldn't be concerned about it.

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Willravel

You do objectify women to some degree. All humans objectify some people. It's normal.

I'm not saying every man makes offensive statements, as a matter of fact, I've repeatedly said I don't know anyone who does it seriously and only a few who do it jokingly. But that's hard to hear through your self-righteous crusade.

Jinn

It's not hard to hear, I agree with everything said in post 255 save your characterization of my "crusade". What you've omitted, however, is the difference between words and thoughts.

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mixedmedia

No. Pretty much the jist of my argument at this point is that some people take even the suggestion that they might reflect on the implications of cultural jargon that they are so sure is harmless and meaningless as a very, very personal affront. I am not the one turning this into a 'major controversy.' We could have had a civil conversation about whether the use of a couple of phrases that essentially mean 'i'd fuck that' (which is a definitive example of the sexual objectification of a human being) is in anyway correlative to the mass sexual objectification of female bodies in our media and it's increasing acceptance. But instead it turned into a group exercise in pointing just how 'wrong' I am for even questioning these things in the first place. I haven't even been able to really consider possible answers to my own questions because I have been so thoroughly lambasted for even asking them. The reaction has me quite baffled, to tell you the truth. If it's not that big of a deal to you guys, you would have just read what I had to say on the first page and moved onto another thread.

So I've got an idea. You think this is a waste of time and not important enough to discuss? Then stop responding.

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aberkok

As roachboy already said - read the thread. Enough with the selective amnesia. The positions have been explained clearly. Saying you don't understand doesn't change that.

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Willravel

Jinn, you don't compliment your SO physically? That's active objectification via words. And why is it okay? Because your SO thinks it's okay.

Likewise, "I'd hit it" is okay with ngdawg and shani. If I were to say it to them, it'd be a compliment hidden in a tease, and I suspect they'd take it as such. So you see it's not as simple as "it's offensive". It can be offensive, but that's way more complex and has a lot to do with the intent in saying it and the perception upon receiving it.

jewels

Respect is what it boils down to.

Personally, my body is for me and the man in my life. But I don't mind attention from men, as long as it's done tactfully and respectfully. I think that, in general, women do enjoy being recognized as feminine, attractive and sexy, but we all have different degrees of tolerance, which may fluctuate based on other influences in our lives.

I remember loving when construction workers would make a lot of noise when I passed. I also remember, at some point, hating it when they did it. Now when it does happen, I don't mind at all, unless they're yelling obscene suggestions. A glance at my breasts or my ass, fine. But if you're glaring and staring and telling me how you want to (insert verb, adjective and noun here), I will think you're a disgusting classless pig.

EDIT: And as for the OP, I think that there is a cultural men's club that perpetuates the idea that a real man has to act like an uncivil animal at certain times. All I've got to say about that is that I hope you don't say that in the vicinity of any woman you care about.

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Jinn

Yea, but in an forum available to the public, whether written or verbal, you have no idea who is going hear or see it. You don't know everyone. My father can say "Women are such bitches.. " to my mother, and they've been married 30 years and she knows what he means by it. It doesn't mean he can go on the Internet or out in public and "jokingly" say it in earshot of another woman.

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Willravel

I agree with abaya, this should have a poll. Is it too late?

What Jinn and I seem to come down to: he believes that the average woman will be very offended by it and I don't. It's really that simple. Having y chromosomes, we can only guess.

Esoteric

You know you don't have to read or respond to these types of threads if it really bothers you.


Anyway, it's a fucking 3 word saying. I really don't see it as attempting to be offensive. I'm also sure women don't objectify men ever, ever, ever.

Ever.

__________________
From a head full of pressure rests the senses that I clutch
Made a date with Divinity, but she wouldn't let me fuck
I got touched by a hazy shaded, God help me change
Caught a rush on the floor from the life in my veins

ShaniFaye

define "average woman" lol somehow I think I dont fit into that category

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Willravel

Okay, Shani gets her own category.

Ustwo

I think few women fit 'average', or more average is far different than the projected average.

I think of you as an average woman myself, but in a good way

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ShaniFaye

Well thats not exactly what I meant, but I dont really think its any surprise I dont think or react to things like the category of "normal women" or rather a lot of women HERE. Maybe its cause Im older...maybe its because my mother swears I was born with a mans brain, who knows....

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Willravel

For the record, the average woman I mentioned above would be people picked at random from a group of people with vaginas. So you very well could be an average woman in that sense.

Lasereth

Well I certainly think it's rude if you say it loud enough for anyone but your buddy to hear it. Saying it loud enough that a stranger or especially another woman or THE woman that is being declared hittable is very rude and I don't condone it. But what's the difference between thinking you'd hit it and saying you'd hit it if it's just a passing comment to a friend? Is it morally wrong to say you think a woman is attractive? Is it morally wrong to say you'd like to have sex with a woman?

abaya

Well, that would be the benefit of having a poll (posted by someone who's not biased towards one side or the other--maybe one of the mods?)... to see if there's a normal curve on this subject, as there are on most social science studies, or if some other kind of pattern is going on.

We need to get at least 30 women and 30 men to respond for it to mean anything, and also include age as a variable (e.g. divide up the response categories by gender and age, possibly marital status; income level would be a stretch to ask about here, but would make it even more valid as a poll). Perhaps we could scale it using 5 answer categories measuring degrees of comfort when hearing the term (extremely-very-somewhat-little-none), or 5 answers for whether people agree/disagree with the term being offensive (very much agree-somewhat agree-neither agree nor disagree-somewhat disagree-very much disagree), etc.

I'd be sincerely interested in seeing the results, just to know what the lurking audience is thinking... lurkers tend to respond to polls more than actually contribute to a thread, unfortunately. Of course, the main bias here is self-selection... only people whose interest is piqued by this topic are going to participate in the poll, which will skew the results. But it still might be interesting.

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Shauk

my opinion is this, objectification is a myth.

Everyone is an object, a container, your personality is inside of that container. people don't have xray vision to see some personality so there is no way in the world, ever, ever for a human (noun, object) to look at another human (noun, object) and go, gee, he/she has a nice personality!

Sex is a physical act between 2 bodies. (noun, object)

this isn't star trek, there are no vulcan mind fucking clubs running rampant in society. (unless you count people "thinking" about what they'd do to a person in a given situation)

NOUN = PERSON (that'd be the men, and the ladies), PLACE, OR THING

you're nothing but a noun, your personality means little when you're reduced to grunting and sweating and making the beast with 2 backs.

Unless, you know, you're in the habit of discussing whatever it is you pretend to define yourself with, no one is rutting eachother trying to show off their personality and individuality going "I LIKE GREEN! I LIKE GREEN, I LIKE GREEN, OH BABY, I WENT TO SCHOOL FOR PSYCHOLOGY! FUCK! YES!"



I'd veeeerb your noun!

Ustwo

I tend not to read roachboys posts, he generally gets insulting to me in them, and I'd rather not be told my opinions are shit for having them. I do on occasion when they are quoted, but thats not very often.

There is no selective amnesia here, MM has not been clear, and STILL has yet to explain what the exploitation is while throwing it back on us for responding to her, after all if it didn't matter we would not respond, which is no argument at all.

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roachboy

ustwo--whaddya mean?
i'm a sweetheart.
a teddy bear.
ask anyone.


let's put the routine political differences/impatience aside for this one..
just read through the whole thread sometime.
do you see how it could be understood as an exercise in collective defensiveness?

it's very strange, this one.

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Nimetic

When I was a kid (and later worked with youngsters) the term "I'd do her" or "yeah, but I'd do her" was used occasionally.

The second was more common. Basically it was used after one person say negative stuff about a woman (given our age then, probably a teacher).

It meant something along the lines of 'she's not all bad'. It probably also meant, in part,
(slightly wistfully) "I'm not getting any at all and I'd not be so fussy if I was you". We were young eh.

Simply a statement of reality I think there.

mixedmedia

I've been very clear about my stance here, you just don't agree with me. You're taking one word out of thousands I have typed here (used in a different context than you are requesting from me, I might add) and calling my whole argument nil because I have yet to quantify it for you. Meanwhile, conveniently ignoring all of my questions and multifarious mission statements.

Let me see, how could the phrase 'i'd hit that,' ever be construed as exploitative of another human being?

Number one, using 'that' to describe a person that you would like to fuck is exploitative whether you want to admit it or not. I find the use of the word 'that' in this phrase to be very significant.

But more interesting to me, is considering the most recent origin of this phrase, (as well 'i'd tap that') which happens to be a segment of the hip-hop culture in which women have been most literally exploited - in that they've been promoted as being anonymous, available, disposable and interchangable. Which after about a decade of outrage on the part of a horrified white America, started to trickle into white culture without a second thought, eventually winding up here on this thread where it is legitimized as 'male bonding' and 'sexual expression.' It's funny, but I don't recall those words being bandied around when this was a 'black issue.'

Now, people have two choices when observing this phenomenon:
1. They can dismiss it outright and say that it's just harmless fun and has absolutely no further implications to society and the state of male/female relations.
or
2. They can question it when the realization dawns on them that we have accommodated an attitude, even if in a less overtly offensive manner, that just a few years ago we thought was despicable.

Now, no, I do not think that a guy directing 'i'd tap that' at me amongst his friends without my knowledge is necessarily exploitative, although it is on an innocuous level. And I can certainly imagine many scenarios in which being the subject of the phrase would be violative enough to make me feel that I've been exploited.

But can we acknowledge that our acceptance of this phrase into our vernacular combined with the increase in the last twenty years or so of women in the media seen not only as sexual and desirable, but sexually available (I think there is a big difference there), is, at the very least, a curious thing and okay to talk about?

Now if all this is still unclear to you at this point, I don't think I can think of a plainer way to put it. If you want to talk about any of these things, then fine, let's talk. This is what I have been wanting to do all along. But I'm done having my argument minimized and dismissed like this is a silly game for you.

And to bring it allllll the way back around to my first contribution to this thread. If you are using these phrases as anything other than a mockery of the men who use it as if it were an entitlement, then I think it's stupid. Grow the fuck up.

The end.

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PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

filtherton

Context is definitely important. Every time I hear someone say "I'd hit it" about someone they've never met I sincerely question their maturity. Most of the guys I know who say shit like that in that context aren't exactly the cream of the crop when it comes to the crop of "men who have sex with ladies who don't work in the sex industry." What they're really saying when they say "I'd hit it." is "At some point in the very near future I'm going to think about her while I masturbate." Which is fine. It's just not something I'm inclined to want to hear about.

It seems like such a ridiculous thing to say. You'd hit it? Would you use birth control? Would you hang out afterward? Would you stick around if she got knocked up? Would she be conscious? Would it bother you if she wasn't? Would it be like you just borrowed her vagina for a while, and gave it back once you were done? You'd fuck someone just because you found them physically attractive from a distance? Really? Is it like you're just jerking off inside of someone else? Have you ever had sex with someone you cared about?

The only times I say "I'd hit it." are when I'm making fun of people who say "I'd hit it." and usually then I say something more like "I'd domesticate that shit" or "I'd pile drive that sasquatch."

Lasereth

I'm pretty sure that when most guys say "I'd hit it" they mean if they were put in an alternate universe they would have sex with that girl if they were dating the girl or something along those lines. It's ridiculous to assume that when it's said it means that they want to go fuck her in the street and then leave.

filtherton

In other words, "In the alternate universes that provide a backdrop for my masturbatory fantasies, where women exists solely to provide knob service and reality based problems and responsibilities are nonexistent, I would totally hit that shit."

What you seem to be saying is that "I'd hit it" doesn't actually mean "I'd hit it" it means "In some alternate reality, where me and that woman are in a committed monogamous relationship I would engage her in sexual intercourse". I don't think I buy that, though I would believe you if you told me that that's what you mean when you say "I'd hit it".

I guess that's why i think the phrase is silly. When I say I'd do something, it's because I'd actually do it, as in actually do it if given the opportunity. I try not to say that I want to do things that I don't actually want to do in actual reality.

ShaniFaye

so let me get this straight....saying you'd have sex with some one is bad unless you're joking when you say it?

Put me in the "bad" line then because I honestly dont see it as anything but a compliment.....maybe Im stupid because I dont see it being exploitive one iota.

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Shauk

man, like my last 3 or 4 posts are pretty much ignored, that makes me a sad panda. someone debate me!