NoSoup

I suppose it is best to begin at the beginning, but I'm not so certain as to where that is...

Although I don't think I have ever really posted anything related to my family on the TFP, I am unsure as to what to do at this point, and would really appreciate some sound guidance as to where to go.

I'll start off saying that I haven't really been raised in the traditional sense - to make a long story short, without boring you, most of my life has been just me living with my father, with my half brother living with us part of the time.

My half brother is much older than I - he is 35 while I am only 22. We were never really that close while I was growing up, for obvious reasons, Additionally, we are fundamentally different, he's big into hunting and drinking beer and country music and all that jazz, where I am pretty much the complete opposite. However, we do both have one trait in common - we are both incredibly stubborn. Unfortunately, whereas I am occasionally willing to listen to the other side of the argument and change my opinion, my half brother is not. He believes what he says goes, without any exceptions. Obviously, we had quite a few personality conflicts as I was growing up.

Moving on - he still lives with my father. Oddly enough, he got married a couple of years ago and so does his wife and her child. (from a previous marriage) To be honest, I can't even fathom why - he has lived with my father for many years - and his wife is nearing her forties. My father just turned fifty, so it's quite the interesting household, I imagine.

Anyway, enough background, and on to the central problem...

He is not, in my opinion, ready to be a father - not by a long shot. He recently impregnated his wife so that he could have a child of his own (she had to go and get her tubes un-tied to do this, it wasn't an accident)

However, I don't believe he feels any real attachment to his wife's 15 year old daughter, the one that is living with them. I don't think he fully understands that he is, in fact, her stepfather, as I am her Uncle.

She just moved here approximately one year ago from Montana - she had been living with her father in quite a small town.

Her living situation was pathetic, and her mother had to fight tooth and nail for custody for her - amazing, since her father was pretty much a deadbeat.

In essence, my niece was ripped away from everything she knew and nearly everyone she loved (with the exception of her mother, of course) and put in a rather ridiculous household that I'm sure is difficult to live in - I moved out when I was 18. She didn't come willingly, but by order of the court.

For the last year she has pretty much been grounded non-stop, for a random variety of things, none of them really a big deal. (Talking on the phone too late, things like that)

Everything apparently culminated last night, though, when she was arrested for Operating a vehicle under the influence (she blew a .01, (the legal limit in Green Bay is .008) Operating a vehicle without a license, (she just turned 15) attempting to elude a police officer, and Grand Theft Auto, a felony offence.

I was absolutely blown away. I couldn't, and still can't believe it. Her hearing is tomorrow, so I'll know more of what happened, but from what I gather she must have walked out of the house after her mother went to bed, and apparently stumbled across a car a few blocks away with the keys in it. She hopped in and drove off. A police officer attempted to pull her over because she didn't have headlights on, and she accelerated sharply, lost control of the vehicle (spun out in the middle of the street, no damage to the vehicle) got out and ran and hid. The officer, oblivious that he was chasing a 15 year old girl who probably weights all of 100 pounds, pulled out his gun and tackled her to the ground in the dark. From my understanding, she tried to resist still and was bruised all over her arms, back, and face from the officer attempted to restrain her/tackling her.

Un-fucking-Real...

Please keep in mind that I would have never expected this from her, and for something like this to happen is incomprehsible. I haven't spoken to her, as she is in the juvenile detention center, but she has a hearing tomorrow afternoon, which I'll attend.

When she first arrived here, I tried my best to be more of a friend to her rather than an authorative figure. She has enough of those, and I really think that that is how you keep kids on the right path. I have experience dealing with a younger cousin of mine that was always into a lot of trouble, but have no kids of my own. My personal philosophy is mutual respect. I would talk to her for hours about how she misses her friends and family out in Montana, and try to guide her through current situations (peer pressure, feelings of inadequacy, the constant punishment) from a point of view not too dissimilar from her own. I lived in the house, hell - she sleeps in my old bedroom. It does get better once you are out on your own, but you have to put up with it until that time comes. In the meantime, focus on your education - start saving money for college. Perhaps I am kidding myself, but I think that I had more of an impact on her than her overbearing stepfather or her mother. I don't mean to give the impression that either one of them are bad people, but I don't think either one of them are very good parents - they are too far removed from the situation.

Anyway, probably about four or five months ago my half brother and his wife got into quite the argument with me. The basically felt that I was trying to undermine their authority, and blamed me for a lot of problems that they were having with their daughter. For example, I told their daughter that if she ever needed anything - a place to stay, money, a ride, whatever the case may be - she should call me first. I wanted her to know that I was going to be there for her no matter what - even if her parents weren't. I understand on a basic level why her parents would be upset with me for saying this, but at the same time, if she were to run away or something like that, I would much prefer that she came to my house - where I know she is safe, and I know where she is, rather than try to live on the streets or something like that.

At the end of the evening, although I disagreed with them, I thought perhaps I wasn't being objective, and agreed not to talk to their daughter about really anything important to see if that helped out their relationship with her and improved her behavior.

One night, my niece approached me and in hushed tones told me that she was no longer allowed to speak with me at all, and started crying. My half brother happened to walk in the house at exactly that moment and yelled at her to get into her room (she was grounded, big surprise)

I haven't really spoken to her since - the occasional Hello or whatever, but nothing like the talks we used to have that I think made life bearable to her.

As it stands, my half brother is not really speaking to me anymore (for a variety of reasons) and my once fine relationship with my sister in law is strained because of my half-brother's grudge against me, as well as the fact she thinks I'm trying to undermine her authority as a parent, when I was just trying to look out for her daughter.

So, folks, my question is, what - if anything - can I do to help my niece get her life on track? I'm at a total loss as to what to do, and I certainly don't ever want anything like this to happen again. I feel as though my hands are tied, but I would be willing to sacrifice my relationship with my half-brother and his wife for the time being instead of just sitting idley by watching my niece waste her life away.

As far as my father's stance is concerned, he doesn't think I should get involved. I don't know, maybe I shouldn't, but it is just so difficult to go over to his house (I visit every Sunday) and watch her life disintigrate. She is incredibly unhappy, and I don't really see any light at the end of the tunnel in the near future...

Thoughts? Opinions? Please be honest, I won't take offence.

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tecoyah

If indeed...you decide to help her, it is important to understand you might fail. It sounds as if the situation is far to complicated (as in the individual steps needed) to give advice to you one way or another. It is commendable that you feel her pain, and would be wonderful if someone could step in to protect her before its too late, but that person will likely be in for a very rough ride, just as she is.

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maleficent

Don't make excuses for her, and don't blame the police officer for doing his job. She is old enough to know better and old enough to take responsibility for her actions...

Has this girl had any kind of therapy at all? Is she in counselling? Is she still in school?

I honestly think this was out of line on your part to say this. You're giving her an easy out, instead of dealing with what's going on. Has she said anything about running away?
I hope you didn't say that to her... House rules are house rules.. .If she's breaking those rules... then there are consequences... You might think the rules are stupid,b ut you don't live there... it's not your place to say what rules are and aren't a big deal.

She needs help, but I think she needs way more help than you can give her... Maybe she will get assigned some therapy in court, but unless she wants it to help (and it doesn't sound like she does) it's not going to do much good.

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The_Jazz

OK, first and foremost, she quite obviously broke the law and needs to accept responsibility for her actions and her punishment. Given that she's 15 that's not likely, regardless of her other issues. Don't get caught in the blame game. Your brother and his wife are not responsible for your neice stealing a car - your neice is. There's also the issue of underage drinking. From what you know of the events, it sounds like she got loaded at home and then snuck out.

That said, it sounds like this kid is in desparate need of a friend or two. If she's constantly grounded, it would just make it harder for her to reach out to her peers. If you know anyone who goes to school with her, could you reach out to them on the sly and see what the consensus about her is?

Assuming that she's going to be coming home (the new home that is), maybe you can voice your concerns with her mother and offer to help in any way that the parents see fit. That way you leave their authority in place and hopefully provide some sort of conduit for the kid. Can she be convinced to go out for some sort of team or group activity (although it is a little late in the school year for that).

Therapy is probably not a bad idea, and hopefully the court will figure that out.

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NoSoup

I understand, that I might fail - perhaps it is even likely. To be honest, I'm not really looking forward to that rough ride that I'm likely in for - but absolutely noone else is willing to fill the position, and I would rather feel a bit of discomfort than have her continue on the path she's going on...


I apologize, I wasn't attempted to make excuses for her. What she did is unexcusable - I was simply trying to show that this is completely beyond the scope of behavior that I expected from her. I didn't think she was even capable of something like this, much less expect it. When she had come out here to visit, she was a gentle, kind, even a bit shy - nothing like she is today. I'm under the assumption that she is just lashing out - but like you said, it is inexcusable.

I don't blame to officer at all for the injuries that were inflicted. He had no idea if she was armed or not, and it was dark. I suppose I mentioned it because it was very surprising to see that she struggled so much against the police, and hopefully she leared a lesson from it.

As far as counceling is concerned, while her parents were still on good terms with me, I suggested that they go see a family counceler and try to nip their growing problems in the bud. They agreed, but only send their daughter. As you can see, the results so far have been nominal, at best.

She is still in school - she just entered high school this year, grade 9.

It may have been, perhaps I should have explained myself better. In essence, what I believe (and hope) that she got from the conversation was that no matter what, she'll always have at least one adult who is willing to stand by her. She'll obviously have to face the consequences of her actions, but I wanted her to know that she wasn't alone.

While we were talking in her room one evening, a bag fell off the top shelf in the closet. In that bag there were a varety of clothes, a bit of cash (she works a few hours a week as a waitress) and a list of phone numbers. I asked her what it was for, and she said that she had packed it in case she needed to get away for a few days. That is when I suggested that my door is always open. I also told her that I couldn't rightly keep her at my house without her parent's knowledge, but would try and convince them to let her stay at my house a few days while they all cool off. I would make sure she got to school on time and had something to eat, as well as a safe place to stay. Perhaps I did cross the line, but I did so with her safety and well being as my paramount concern.

No, I would never say anything like that to her. I'm not trying to get her to believe she is being treated unfairly, I am simply trying to help her deal with her life. She's new in the area, new to school here, and she is firmly under the assumption that her parents don't care about her. I try to help her understand that noone is perfect and that they are just doing the best they can, and both still love her deeply.

Agreed, hopefully she will be required to go to counceling, but you're right - if she doesn't want it to help, it won't.

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robbdn

I have a different perspective on this one... the answer here is not one of improving discipline, or rules, or knowing better. This is a child that is not getting the love supplies she needs at home, and is instead turning to drinking and crime. Unless she gets the love that she needs, it's just going to continue. Nothing else is very important here.

Her parents, who live with your father, do not sound like they are in a position to provide the love supplies that she needs. Perhaps you are, and for trying, you would have no share of her guilt or blame. Perhaps her short-sighted parents will try and blame you for things, but it's really just ridiculous, because she makes her own choices, not you. For trying to love her and defend her, you assume none of that blame. She is reaching out to you, you have a real chance to help her turn her life around. Throwing it away with the justification that you're not the parent is not responsible, it's the same sort of moral blunder that millioins of Americans make every day that allows things like domestic violence and sexual abuse become as prevalent as they are. Get involved, love your family, and whatever line-item actions you take in the course of loving your family, you have no need to feel bad about, even if things end up disastrously.

For what it's worth, let her know you don't approve, but that's not the important thing here. What's important is showing her that you love her, unconditionally. It will not magically fix her, it will not make her suddenly realize the errors of her ways, but she will have a support structure to back her up when she decides it's time to change, and she will feel self-worth for being loved. Until that time comes, let the law and her parents deal with her as they see fit, but don't ever stop being involved and caring for her, no matter what, even if it means being a bit subvertive to the authority figures in her life. If she's not getting love from them, the love from you will go a long way. That is what family is supposed to be all about, after all. Nobody has a right to stop you from having honest, open communication with the people you love, and nobody has the right to tell you not to care about somebody who obviously needs your care and concern.

Again, there's no one specific thing you can do or say in this situation. There is no way that you can "fix" it, and it would only end up hurting you if you tried. Let each of them who is involved deal with that. All you need to do is care, no matter what, and things will work themselves out from there.

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NoSoup

[QUOTE=The_Jazz]OK, first and foremost, she quite obviously broke the law and needs to accept responsibility for her actions and her punishment. Given that she's 15 that's not likely, regardless of her other issues. Don't get caught in the blame game. Your brother and his wife are not responsible for your neice stealing a car - your neice is. There's also the issue of underage drinking. From what you know of the events, it sounds like she got loaded at home and then snuck out.

That said, it sounds like this kid is in desparate need of a friend or two. If she's constantly grounded, it would just make it harder for her to reach out to her peers. If you know anyone who goes to school with her, could you reach out to them on the sly and see what the consensus about her is?

Assuming that she's going to be coming home (the new home that is), maybe you can voice your concerns with her mother and offer to help in any way that the parents see fit. That way you leave their authority in place and hopefully provide some sort of conduit for the kid. Can she be convinced to go out for some sort of team or group activity (although it is a little late in the school year for that).

Therapy is probably not a bad idea, and hopefully the court will figure that out.[QUOTE]


While I don't blame her stepfather and mother directly for it, I do think that they are the underlying cause of her lashing out, in whatever way that may be.

Additionally, I find it absolutely ridiculous that they don't know that their 15 year old daughter is getting hammered while at home. Had this been a one time event, I would understand, but we looked in the liquor cabinet and there is probably three or four bottles of liquor that were nearly empty. If they never really drank or whatever, I would understand, but my step-brother goes into the cabinet quite often to get his drink of choice.

Because so much is missing, I imagine she has been doing it for quite some time, and perhaps I am being unfair by saying they should have noticed, but a vast amount of alchohol is gone, and I find it nearly impossible that there were never any signs...

I agree with you wholeheartedly that what she likely needs is a friend or two. I can't even imagine how difficult it must be for her to be thousands of miles away from all your old friends, and not really allowed to make new ones.

I will see what I can do to find out what her classmates see her like, but she seems rather sociable, so providing she had the opportunity, I would imagine she would be able to make friends just fine. However, I also imagine that it is incredibly difficult to make friends in the few minutes she has in between classes - she gets dropped off at school and picked up immediately afterward.


This is exactly what I was hoping the response would be. I understand that I am not her parent, nor do I agree with many of her decisions. However, I think it is important for her to realize that I will be there and love her unconditionally.

I don't think that additional discipline will help her realize her errors and correct them. It's hard to punish a child who has pretty much everything taken away from her already. Grounding, Not being able to talk on the phone, not being able to go out with friends, etc, is such the norm that I don't think she thinks of it as punishment anymore, just the way things are and always will be.

I'd talk to my sister in law and half brother, but neither of them will listen. Both of them get incredibly defensive when it comes to talking about their parenting style, and automatically dismiss everything I say because I'm not a parent myself, telling me that I'll look at things differently when I am. I can't disagree with that, because I certainly may, but I was in their child's position not long ago - I'm not as removed from the situation as they think.

To be completely honest, although they have children, I almost feel more like an adult than they are. Granted, they are older than I and are parents, but I have a stable job, am engaged, own a home, (and don't live with my father) and have had quite a bit of life experience when it comes to matters regarding kids. I pay my bills on time, save for the future and my retirement, and have money put away for my childrens education, who probably won't even be concieved for several years.

It just seems ridiculous that someone in their position can so completely and utterly discount my opinions on the subject....

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NoSoup

This just keeps getting better and better...

On Monday, my niece had an initial hearing to see if she could be (at least temporarily) released into her parent's custody. It was granted.

I went to the hearing, and she didn't look good. Her stepfather is at a cabin up north, and didn't even bother coming home - and still hasn't been home - since the whole thing happened. I called about visiting her, but they only allow the legal guardian in. Her mother was near me when I called, and overheard. She said that she would go and visit (This was on Saturday) but was too tired. So all of Saturday, as well as Sunday, her daughter was up there alone, without recieving so much as a phone call from her mother.

After she was released, I went over to my father's house to see how she was doing. Basically, she cried and said that she was incredibly sorry, was going to do her best never, ever to get into a situation like that again, etc. It ended with her hugging me and telling me that I was the best uncle she ever had. When we had talked about the events in question, I didn't come at her with accusations, I was more interested in understanding why she had done it, and how to prevent it.

Through the course of our conversation, she asked what happened next, I explained that there would be another hearing on Wednesday to decide what exactly she was being charged with, and then at least one more to see what she had to do to atone for her crimes. She then asked if I would go to all her hearings with her, I agreed, of course.

Anyway, her mother apparently caught wind that I had spoken to her about it - I hadn't realized that she hadn't, and I wasn't supposed to for some unknown reason. This morning, about three hours before the next hearing (my niece was in school yet) she called me up and told me that she didn't want me to be there. Apparently it had offended her that her daughter had thought to ask me rather than her to make sure to attend all her hearings.

So, I didn't go. I feel horrible. I don't think that when I talk to my niece I want to tell her that the reason I didn't go is because her mother wouldn't allow me in the courtroom - that would just damage their relationship more.

However, I don't want her to think that I abandoned her, just like everyone else, either.

Perhaps I should tell a little white lie about having a flat tire or something...

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Poppinjay

I think before you are able to do anything for your niece, you need to to come to some sort of understanding with her parents. Their skills are what they are, and not for you to judge. Try to envision a scenario for this discussion where there is no talk about what you feel is lacking in their parenting skills, only what you can do to help your niece.

It's ugly to hear it, but a part of their problem may be because this is a non-blood relative niece, 15, you're 22, and mom is near 40. She may be suspicious of your motives since she is newer to the family than you and your step-brother.

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NoSoup

Agreed, that's pretty ugly.

That has never even crossed my mind...

Wow.

I would hope that her mother wouldn't be that irrational...

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robbdn

Yeah, I guess that could be a little weird... perhaps if your fiancee was more involved, it would make the mother feel more at ease? Went with you to support her, etc, you did say you were engaged right? I think that could go a long way to put her at ease if that is a part of the issue...

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NoSoup

I am indeed engaged. I don't think her mother would feel comfortable knowing about their family life than necessary, she does her best to keep everything very hush-hush.

After giving it some more thought, though, I really don't think that it is an issue...

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slimpi66y

Damn man, you are a great human being.

While I am sure you are flawed like every other human being, but I think either your father did a great job in raising you or you are just a great humanist