What if they're at war with the other 5 because of massive ideological differences? That'd be quite a thing.

Lots of speculation on the last 5 or whatever. I think it is ambiguous enough to do lots of different things. I suspect if we could categorize what attributes each of the models we know possess, we may be able to start to divine what (human) attributes are unaccounted for. I mean if they were designed around the 7 deadly sins, we could start to get into 1=sloth 2=gluttony etc. We don't know the list / attributes that Moore used, but maybe the holes would point us in the right direction. I have no idea though.

For fun - I found this on YouTube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxX0DKE3oqw&eurl=

I liked it since some guy did it in his spare time which I think is neat. my favorite part is Spoiler: when the Viper turns around in the trench and blasts the pursuing Tie Fighter.

Well, Battlestar inadvertently showed us all, yet again, why its the best show on television. Great episode tonight! Tied up alot of things in a very entertaining way.

Yeah I was quite the episode. The fight with Adama and his speech was the best. Didn't really like the Apollo/Starbuck thing.

I just realized that the actor who plays Hotdog is Bodie Olmos - Edward James Olmos' son... Was this common knowledge and I wasn't paying attention?

Yeah, it was common knowledge, at least in my household.

I didn't know about it.

Starbuck is one crazy effed up bitch. WTF is with her? Did she marry Anders out of guilt or was she doing it to punish herself since she felt unworthy?

Listen to the podcast. Moore, along with Helo and Boomer, explain it. The thing is: Starbuck is always running. She's been afraid of letting people in since we've known her. Of all the people on the show Lee is the closest to her, and when he seduced her she freaked out. With Anders, she could have a shallow love and lust without the complications of a deeper relationship (though we all know that was doomed). Deep down she knows that she'd in love with Apollo. I think she's known since she shagged Baltar (called out Lee's name, LOL). The thing is, Starbuck is flawed. She's just like the rest of the cast.

She did Baltar? Damn, I totally forgot.

I hate when the previews contain big spoilers. Such as Spoiler: Starbuck obviously survives and is rescued/assisted by Dee, and the oviously don't nuke the planet with all their peeps still on the surface (like that was ever gonna happen). There should really put a "this preview may contain spoilers" warning on them.

I wish shows would just stay on the same night and time, Sunday YUCK!

mrklixx: like they're going to kill a main character. I enjoy the show, but they're not nearly that daring.

I think it's safe to assume that all previews for the next episode contain spoilers.
You forgot about Kat already?

There are only a few characters that probably won't die (perminantly): Admiral Adama, President Roselyn, Apollo, Starbuck, Baltar, and the cylons. Everyone else is fair game including: Helo (though that would espically piss me off), Athena Sharon (she could be boxed), Dee, Anders, Tigh, Tyrol and his wife, Gaeta, and Tom "where the heck did he dissapear to?" Zerek.

Neeways, how amazing was that episode? It had me on my seat the whole time. We got to hear "Prelude to War" by Bear McCrary as Adama was preparing to nuke the planet and it really drove the urgency and danger home. The looks on everyone's faces changed it from a bluff situation into a real possibility. He's just crazy enough to do it.

I'm still wrapping my head around Starbuck and Apollo. They really are the Ross and Rachel of the 12 Colonies. Will they? Won't they? So now Starbuck is suggesting that she can't get a divorce because marriage is a sacred promise, even though she fracks around with all sorts of sailors and such. Are we to assume that their marriage vows don't include singlular devotion? Also, I'm really dissapointed in Apollo. His character has been back and fourth, but it seemed as if he always was trying to do the right thing. He fought his father and Tigh when they were wrong. He fought Zarek. He fought the various Pagesus captians. He might as well have a big yellow S on his chest. While he obviosuly has intamacy issues (Lee loves the hookerfolk), I didn't see him cheating on his wife with a married woman, even if he is in love with her. Another thing that's funny to me, Jamie and Katee have great chemestry, but their love scenes are kinda awkward. Is that intentional?
As to the main storyline: I'm beginning to be confused about the connection between the final 5 and the Eye of Jupiter. De'Anna is continually committing suicide because she feels she is becomign closer to the truth about the final 5 and also the true nature (and face of) the cylon God. The final 5 are presumably only 40 years old at the most. We've found a temple that was prophisized in the sacred books of Kobol, it has 5 pillars. When the hybrid cylon grabbed Baltar, she said "Intelligence, a mind that burns like a fire," presumably referring to Baltar, "...find the hand that lies in the shadow of the light, in the eye of the husband, in the eye of the cow." Thanks to Baltars reasoning, we figure out that Hera is commonly called cow eyed Hera, and the husband of Hera is Zeus or Jupiter. To this, De'anna suggests a connection between the cylon god and the theology of the 12 Colonies. Baltar figures that the Eye of Jupiter is hidden in a cluster of starts (shawdow of light). The hand? Baltar thinks that the hand is some sort of artifact...but then makes the connection between the five fingers and 5 faces...did he really mean the final 5? I mean there were 5 priests at the temple at one time, according to the scriptures, but could Baltar mean that: 1) the final 5 have accepted the Colonial theology to be their faith and have taken the place of the 5 preists? 2) The final 5 are hiding on the planet? 3) The final 5 have some connection to the history of the temple and thus the voyage of the 13th tribe?

And what about the massive coincedence that they all arrived at once, just before the star was going to go nova (as Gaeta and Baltar pointed out)? Could this show finally move from coincedence to an actual higher power playing a role? I mean the other stuff was history, though the stuff about Laura being sick and leading the people is really amazing, but this is getting silly. Also, I wonder what roll the cylon eventually play in the mythology of the 13 tribes reuniting? I need to get that book!

Neeways, enough ranting for now. I await January with eager anticipation.

I thought it was a great episode and I can't wait till the end of January.

On a side note, is it really necessary to include spoiler tags during discussion of episodes that already aired? Shouldn't those who didn't see the ep know that the discussion of the ep will include spoilers?

willravel: Yeah, I forgot about her. I never really thought of her as a main character. I feel the same way about her as I do about Hot Dog or any of the other minor but recurring characters. Kat was only in 18 episodes of the 44, but I guess she was kind of a main character.

I also think the whole "is this a coincidence?" thing was their nod to the fact that the "same place, same time" thing's totally unrealistic and they needed to bring deus ex machina to explain why it happened. It's not that I'm not enjoying it, but the show has some weak points.

This is what I think is going to happen: Spoiler: Chief was reading the off the wall of the temple when he said something like "the heavens will open and reveal the Eye of Jupiter. I think Adama is actually going to fire the nukes, but the nukes will be intercepted by something and reveal whatever the Eye of Jupiter is (I think its the entire planet). Ronald Moore is hardly predictable, so who knows. I completely agree with you on the whole preview thing. I especially hate the flashes of the episode during the opening credits (which I never watch anymore).


Kudos to Mr. Moore for keeping this series so insanely good.

MASSIVE Spoiler: One will die, one will find out he or she is a cylon, and one will find Earth... This second half of a season looks incredible, and I can't wait....HURRY, SCI FI!!!

Me too. I think they did a good job improving the Cyclons! It did not make much sence before when the Cyclons were "Piloting" ships.

No comments yet? I thought it was great and I wouldn't have expected the plot twists that occurred.

What's there to say? Battlestar is the epitome of television.

Mothology: The final five have a definate connection to the traveling Earth colonists, which runs against the timeline we were given in which the Earthlings left thousands of years ago, but the Cylons are only 40-60 years old. I'm wondering if the final 5 might be more supernatural than we had previously been lead to believe. Could it be thery traveled through time? Or could it be that the Earthicans, with their precognative abilities, forsaw the current situation and left behind the identities of the final five to assist the human fleet.
Earth: The fleet knows where to head next!
Food: Did we forget that the reason we were on the planet was to gather edible fungus becuase we were out of food? Oops...
Hybrid: HERA IS BACK, AND SHE BROUGHT CAPRICA!!! I couldn't be happier that Carl and Athena have their daughter back, and Caprica helped them!! I missed seeing Caprica in a role seperate from Baltar.
Baltar: "Welcome back, Mr. President..." *thwak* Awesome. So now we have Baltar back amongst the humans and, according to the previews, in quite a bit of danger. Spoiler: I wonder if we wil get to see the beginning of the trial next week or if they'll make us wait unti; the week after. I can't wait to meet Baltar's representative, with his cape.
Lee, Starbuck, and the people that love them: Lee and Starbuck are assholes. De and Anders are codependant. Yeesh.
Starbuck the visionary: WTF?! What could this possibly mean? Is Starbuck a prophet? Is she a cylon? Will she find Earth? Boy, that was out of left field.
Bye, bye, Zena: Fair thee well. So now there are 11 cylons because the entire model of Dianna was boxed! I wonder if that's going to lead to a lot of 50/50 decisions with 3 cylons going one way and 6 going the other. No more tie breakers. Maybe they can do a secret ballot.

Either way, the wait was waaay to long, and I can't wait for next Sunday (why the move to Sunday?!).

I don't know why the move to Sunday, but it's a pain in the ass.
Is Starbuck a cylon? I overheard that in the halls today. Personally I think either Adama or Tigh is a cylon....
'Course, if Laura has her way and flushes Baltar out of an airlock, like in the previews, I guess that'll solve the whole "is Baltar a cylon" thing...

I was reading a fucking TV guide before the season started and it mentioned that a cylon model would be boxed but not who. There was also other shit in there that is major and hasn't happened yet.

They pretty much covered than in The Eye of Jupiter; they were processing the algae and had already been shipping it up to the fleet.


I'm really curious as well about the whole Starbuck-unintentional-foresight-thing.

There's no way Adama or Starbuck is a cylon - but...if Tigh were a cylon...wow...that would be...really messed up. Seeing as how the show tends to max out the 'messed-upness' factor, I guess he would be my top vote.

Seems very unlikely they would make Baltar a cylon, since he's the one wondering if he is or not.

I can't really imagine any of the major human characters as a cylon, though. But since she recognized at least one of them, and said 'I'm sorry'...I guess it has to be someone we've seen.

Was anyone else bothered by the fact that:

o Human doctor, when presented with a cylon/human hybrid, can quickly figure out how to cure cancer with it's blood?

o Cylon doctors, when presented with a cylon/human hybrid, can't seem to figure out how to fix what appears to be a blocked digestive system?
(but, on the other hand - why would the cylons need to learn anything about surgery or advanced medicine? If one of them gets 'damaged' enough to require extensive fixing, just exterminate it and it will be downloaded into a new body.)

On a related note - are any of the cylons we've seen expert scientists or engineers? Or are they all just using the tools provided to them by 'someone' (the final five, maybe?)

Baltar is a genius, and humankind has a lot of exierience in dealing with innovative medicine.
Objection, your honor, asked and answered.
While it's not made clear, I suspect that there is a slave worker class in addition to the centurions and raiders. Ironic, no?

I thought Sharon was using that as an excuse to bring the baby back to Galactica and pursuade Boomer to let them do it.

I thought the show was pretty good despite the shit ass previews they had been showing for about a week.

The only problem with the show--other than unbelievably oily Lee--is the Admiral seems to be going soft.

Mondak kind of brought it up earlier and at the time I just thought "this too will pass," but soft Adama seems here to stay, which irriates me to no end. Where on earth is the incredibly tough, but fair hard-ass from the mini-series and season 1? After Sharon shot him, he's changed from the rough, respectable father figure with a heart of gold into the doddering, soft relic that nobody listens to and then walks all over. The Grandpa Simpson of Galactica, if you will.

Helo shoots Sharon and suffers nothing? Gets in the President's face with chest puffed out and no reprimand other than weak ass gesture of the hand? Sharon, for all intents and purposes, leaves the ship to consort with the enemy and then she just flys back to Galactica with nary a trouble. She just walks off with hubby to see the doc, while the rest of the deck crew appropriately flip out over Caprica showing up.

I understand the idea is that they're family, but godsdamn aren't they taking it too far? The survival of the human race is at stake, the fate of the race to Earth is hanging in the balance and Adama can't seem to keep his crew in line. The only person who seems to be trying--or at least talking about it--is the President and they're painting her as a hypocrite.

Not to say there haven't been flashes of the old Adama, I just wish it would stick.

Adama, Tigh, Apollo can't be cylons. Probably not Starbuck either. Cylons don't age and there are people that can obviously vouch for their existance and aging.

...unless they were replaced at some point. The Admiral didn't see Lee for a few years, who knows?

The cylon is either De, Anders, Roselyn, or Geata.

I'ts probably not Zarek because he's been famous for a while, so he would haev aged in the public eye. It's probably not Anders for the same reason (though we don't know how long cylons have been under, he could have made his way up through the minors into the majors in a few years).

godsdamn . . . nice touch. . .

I just watched this week's episode, and dang, it's irritating when they get basic science wrong. With the air draining from the airlock, the problem for the Chief and Caleigh wouldn't be freezing, it would be overheating, along with depressurization. Vacuum is cold, sure, but it's also a near perfect insulator. Body heat has no place to go, so the body heats up.

Otherwise, it was a good slice of life episode.

Heh, thanks for the info, I would never have guessed something like that. It is too bad they got it wrong, but at least they're right more often than most of the crap on TV lately!

I also enjoyed this past episode. I've seen a lot of people complaining about the last few being filler, but personally I've enjoyed seeing the character development. It makes everything much more real to see how things run when they've gone for nearly two months without a cylon attack.

They weren't in a vacuum, though. The air was very slowly leaking out, and that leak was moving the heat energy out of the room...but the thin air still could draw the heat from the body. You're absolutely right that in a vacuum heat stays in because thermal diffusion (conduction) only can happen between a solid, liquid or gas, though. Also, you can lose radiative heat in a vacuum, though that wouldn't be much at all.

I was hoping they might have sunburns, for realism.

I really loved the episode. The intruduction of Admiral Adama's ex wife was a fascinating window into his past and also explained quite a bit about his relationship with Lee and Zach. I'm always happy to get more back story. Also, the law books not only act as an anchor for Lee, but a tie in to the much anticipated "Caprica" series.

Insomnia sucks.
 

Sure, it's drawing heat energy from the room, but it's doing so along with a drop in air pressure. The amount of heat would be going down, but the temperature drop would be very slow, and they'd in the meantime be having difficulty dumping their excess body heat due to the thin air.

Battlestar Galactica is the best show on television.

I really like the dedication to character development on the show. That is why BSG is really one of the best dramas on television to date.

It's so refreshing to come here and see that people are enjoying the last few episodes. Over at TVSquad, where I read reviews (well, more accurately, recaps) of each episode after it airs, it seems people really don't like these "filler" episodes. The posts on the official sci-fi channel boards aren't much better. The fact is, while we all enjoy awesome space battles, and crazy revelations regarding the mythos, every episode can't have that - especially when the season is 20 hours long. Instead, some weeks, we get episodes that are almost entirely dedicated to character development. I, for one, enjoy it, and I'm glad to see that there are others who do as well.

Besides, we all know that when they return to the action for the end of the season it's going to be insanely awesome, so why not sit back and enjoy the break in intensity for a bit! :)<hr>In other news, Battlestar Galactica has been renewed for a 4th season, apparently returning to the 13 episode format of season 1. This renewal also means that there will likely be a straight-to-DVD/TV movie between season 3 and 4. Details on the movie are not yet known.

I was worried about last week's episode being a "filler." But I have no idea why that thought ever came to me. The episode was very well directed, and had a captivating touch. It was very cool to have an episode based in developing Admiral Adama.

Aren't they just out in space, rather than near a star?

Solar radiation fills space.

I for one have enjoyed the last couple episodes, along with the rest of my family. To many time "space" shows are about the special effects more than the story. Battlestar is the exception to all space tv. I love it and theres nothing better than BSG except for Firefly.

Just when I thought I could love Gaius Baltar/James Callis anymore...for as little as he appeared in this past episode, it was definitely one of the better Baltar episodes!

And, I just want to share with all of you here what is being said in some other corners of the internet about the most recent episode of BSG:And that, folks, is why great shows like BSG struggle to find an audience. It takes a special kind of stupid to call character development "boring."

This was a very good episode IMO. We get to see the continuation of the small story arc with The Chief, Caleigh, and even Seelix got a little development.

Sure, it's the third or fourth episode in a row without Cylons, but so what? BSG is at it's core a show about what it means to be human, and this can be explored through interaction between the humans and the fleet or the humans and the Cylons.

There were some small problems--I just knew the kid sent to the refining ship was going to get badly injured or killed the moment he showed up; he had "red shirt" written all over him--but the way it gives us some insight into how messy and fragile the situation is helps keep the show grounded. One of the problems with a lot of science fiction is how clean it seems.

This was a good episode. Not the stinker that "Scar" was, and not the great entertainment that "Exodus" was, but still some solid storytelling.

I do have to say that the solution they came up with, drafting civilians and forcing them into labor on the refining ship was nearly as bad as letting the refiners continue without relief.

Good character development, and good exploration of a complex problem. I'm not getting the complaints.

True, the solution was pretty terrible, but their situation is pretty terrible too. I think that's what made the episode particularly interesting. It's difficult to pick sides when while you want to side with Chief Tyrol and demand decent working conditions, you're also faced with the reality that they have a very limited number of people, are stuck in space, and may have to run from the cylons at any minute. If that's not a decent argument for "I don't care how it gets done, just do it," I don't know what is! With that in mind, the solution they came up with seems pretty reasonable. People get much-needed downtime and jobs requiring minimal experience get rotated. I'm not sure that there's any better solution for them considering the circumstances.

Once again BSG presents a thoughtful look at relevent societal issues, mainly workers' rights and the social hierarchy in a really compelling way. I am so addicted to this show that I'm afeared it will be cancelled.
Baltar is quickly becoming one of my favority anti-heros.

You know, I've been saying for awhile now that BSG will ultimately be able to be seen as the fall and redemption of Gaius Baltar. Yet, for some reason, I never thought of him as an anti-hero. Now that you've described him that way, I'm not sure why I didn't.

With all you Baltarists out there, is there room for a hater in your midst?

This story could have been told without the Baltar vehicle. I think he did too much in recent history to be redeemable as a credible information source. His sins:

1. Sold out the 13 colonies for some ass. His actions led to the deaths of billions of people. The only thing is that no everyone knows this.

2. Pitched the people on moving to New Caprica despite his own understanding that it would be a disaster of a planet to move to. Why? He wanted to win the election. If you go back to the merits of Roslyn v. Baltar for president, her argument was not to settle a planet - it was that THIS was the wrong planet to choose. The Scientist presented information on why it was ideally suitable that was false. The climate and resources were inappropriate as a long term home for a people to proliferate on. People would not forget this.

3. He lived in a den of moral filth BEFORE the Cylons took over on New Caprica and supplied a million reasons why people would hate him on his own. Then he acted as an pawn of the Cylons rather than fighting back. The kind of kangaroo court that I see coming where the whole story won't come out but his version will be accepted as truth by a jury will be very frustrating.

I don't think the people would be so willing to jump back on the Baltar wagon. Why did the writers do it? Well they are not going to kill off this dirt bag, so they had to find a way for him to "plausibly" get back in. I don't think it is plausible at all.


In other news, the President and the Admiral would not turn that blind and eye to the problems of the refinery ship and the rest of the fleet just to do an about face a few hours later. Helo runs all over the place on his own agenda and Adama thanks him for keeping to his moral compass. The Chief who is WAY above board on being reliable, valuable and having good judgment gets forced into a no win situation, jail and has his wife's life threatened. This results in the very situation that would have really happened from the get go: Roslyn and Adama listen to him and trust his judgment. Retarded.

Am I complaining that I didn't see enough space battles and they did too much with character development? Nope (although space battles are shiny treats). Instead I say that they directly contradicted very detailed previous character development so that they could somehow get Baltar back in the game.

Yuk. . .

But Mondak what kind of character would Baltar be if he was just a uni-dimensional dirtbag? He is a weak, egotistical man but not necessarily all bad. He was spot on when he pointed out the inequities that existed within the fleet. Did he do this for his own self-serving reasons or to effect change?
I can't help but find the character interesting, if not sympathetic.
And yes, I believe redemption is always a possibility.

There's no denying that Baltar has made some pretty huge mistakes. However, there's a big difference in knowingly setting up the colonies for destruction just for some ass, and being used as a means to an end. I think it's been made quite clear over the years how incredibly guilty Baltar feels about the part he unknowingly played in that. You make some valid observations and of course you're entitled to dislike Baltar if that's the way you see it, I don't mean to disregard your entire post. But as for your first point, it's not fair to make it seem as though he knew what was happening and didn't care. Yes, he gave Six access to things he shouldn't have for ass, but he certainly didn't know what it would lead to.

You see, THAT is what is wrong with our society today. Nothing is anyone's fault. Who could have known? Rubbish!!! You work for the planetary defense and you have codes to get into the system, what would you THINK someone might want them for?

SIX: Gee Baltar, I really want to play some space invaders on the defense grid mainframe. You mind giving me the global access codes?

BALTAR: You are still going to frak me though right? Oh by the way, having these fall into the wrong hands could lead to the end of our civilization. So even though I went through eight million levels security clearances and background checks and even though I promised to never reveal these codes to anyone, how about you promise not to give them to anyone mmmmkay?

On second thought, you are right. How COULD he have known. We should all feel sorry for him instead. He was just a helpless doe eyed deer when he handed over the codes, made a fake Cylon detector, gave a nuke to a Cylon in the fleet so she could blow up herself, a ship and a couple thousand others, lied about New Caprica to get elected, screwed all the people on the planet, worked with the Cylons, helped put the Cylons on the path to Earth, etc. . .

Me? I prefer to take responsibility for my actions. I demand the same of my SciFi characters, and condemn those who don't.

You may have missed it - it was only referenced in a couple lines here and there - but the reason he gave the codes to Six is because he thought she worked for a company that was competing for a defense contract. As far as Baltar was concerned, he was just helping Company X beat out Company Y for the contract.

Anyway, I was going to make a big long post about Baltar and why, while guilty of many things, there are other things to consider about his character as well, but actually I think there's a more important point to be made...

This is a TV show. In life, we obviously want to have a stable rule of law and see "bad guys" caught. On the other hand, I propose that in fictional entertainment, it's best to have characters like Baltar who are flawed, make mistakes, but not totally evil. Regardless of whether or not you like Baltar, you have to admit they make an effort not to portray the situation as black and white. Even if you hate him, I don't think anyone would say Baltar is totally evil. Simply put, it makes for good TV. If you want cookie-cutter characters who are either "good" or "bad," and you want to see the "good guys" always prevail and the "bad guys" always lose in the end, watch the original Battlestar Galactica (and I say this as someone who actually enjoyed it, for all its campiness). Otherwise, enjoy the ride, and be thankful that this Baltar is such a flawed, human character who is not simply evil. :)

Exactly...its just a fictional show, not reality, and its been going downhill for a while. My Kingdom for some actual excitement again.....a space battle, a cylon encounter...something besides interpersonal relationships and the beginning of a workers union.......like Adama would have actually shot someone for mutiny...Please!!!!

Adama would have shot Cally.

I think he was bluffing.

No, I think he would've.

To (mostly) quote another comment from TVSquad:I have no doubt that if Chief hadn't given in, Adama would have had Cally shot. He needs to make sure that people are doing what is necessary to keep the fleet ready for the Cylons, and that they know there are consequences if they aren't. Chief can represent the workers and be their voice to the Admiral and President, so long as they can trust that he will keep them working while he negotiates better working conditions. Adama made that clear.

I find that listening to the podcast enhances my Battlestar experience. Included in this past podcast is Ronald D. Moore explaining how Adama would have done it. Just fyi.

Do you watch every episode twice Will? I've listened to a couple podcasts, and I've saved all of them, but I just can't find the time to watch every episode twice through for the podcast.

Had Adama actually shot Cally, he would have been seen as a dictator and murderer, the whole fleet would have mutinied and all would be lost. Theres a fine line between military authority and actual murder. They may be at war, but supposedly Roslin is still in charge......she eventually did hear what the chief had to say......they could not exist with a subserviant underclass, that had no rest, no means of promotion, and most of all no hope. In the end Adama and Roslin realized this......maybe we should too...:confused:

I think Baltar is an interesting character. He's an opportunist, and self-serving, but not strictly evil, which makes him more interesting to me.

It's been a while since I saw the original mini-series, but I'm certain that he didn't sell out the Caprica defense systems. My impression was that Six was a silent collaborator who helped design the computer networks that Baltar was given credit for, which makes perfect sense when you think about what the Cylons did in the initial attack. It goes by rather quickly, but the basic idea was that before the armistice, the humans had avoided any kind of computer networking or AI development as a defense against infiltration of their systems by the Cylons. A couple of generations had gone by, and people had come to accept peace as the status quo, resulting in computer networking being acceptable once again. Baltar, at Six's urging, had taken the lead in helping develop these systems. Six had access because she was partly responsible for the design. It wasn't just the defense codes, but the fact that they were networked at all that allowed the Cylons to penetrate the defenses of the planetary defense systems and the Battlestars themselves.

Also, the Cylon detector did work; it's the other humans who don't know this.

This isn't to say that he's a good person or a hero, and I don't like him very but he's far from my least favorite character, and he really is very interesting. What he's done in his past doesn't invalidate his ideas regarding the social stratification of the fleet.

Col. Tigh, on the other hand, him I can't stand. Nearly everything he does sets my teeth on edge. Since Mrs. Tigh's very timely death, he's become the character I most want to see sacrificed for the greater good.

I had no doubt Adama would have had Caleigh killed.

I watch every episode twice and then listen to the podcast. When it's Battlestar, you make time. Thanks to iTunes, I can watch them at home or work.

They covered up the half cylon baby theft for over a year. I think they could have covered the Cally thing just fine.

The fleet has already been split up once, it could easily be split again....you actually think that the murder of the chiefs wife could be covered up??? I have some swamp land you may be interested in.....:)

She does work around alot of machinery. An "accident" would not be so unbelievable.

Coverups:
- Cylons look like humans (kept until 1x08)
- Adama lied about knowing where Earth is (kept until 1x12)
- Roselyn has cancer (kept until 1x13)
- Baltar is a traitor - or was fooled (kept until 2x13)
- Billy isn't a panzy (kept until 2x16)
- The final five are different (kept until maybe the Eye of Jupiter)
- Cylon baby is still alive (kept until very, very recently maybe a few eps back)
- Kat was a smuggler (kept until 3x09)
Spoiler: - Kara can see the future (kept until 3x16, you'll see)
There's so much crap going on, they could easily say that she contracted a disease or there was an accident.

Once again I'll point out out that this is a fictional program,and the writers could conceivable have Cally be abducted by aliens and subjected to an anal probe. Covering up a hybrid childs existance is one thing, but covering up a murder is another. Adama wasnt at Cally's location, his soldiers were....now do you really think "the writers" would have the soldiers shoot an unarmed woman who had just given birth a few months earlier??? Its all supposition....the writers can write whatever they want...it would have been a real shocker if they would have shot her!!!! But they didnt....... good thing too, cause Adama would have had zero credibility then....sure he would have been following the dictates of military justice, but as a human being he would have been a total zero....

Cheater.

I checked it out... you're right, but in the same podcast he concedes that the actors might have better insight into the characters than he might. I wonder what Olmos would have to say about it.

Well the last episode Edward James Olmos directed was "Tanking a Break from All Your Worries", in which Baltar tries to commit suicide, Roselyn was going to throw Baltar out the air lock, and Admiral Adama uses hallucinogenics to brutally interrogate Baltar. I'll bet that he would have gone balls to the wall. Also, I think Eddie has it in for James Callis.

I don't think they would have tried to cover up Cally's execution. It wouldn't have the deterrent effect Adama wanted to produce.

Gilda, good point.

DaveMatrix: We understand that the show was written knowing that Cally was going to survive, and the threat was there to create drama. It was, however, also there to make a dramatic point regarding what kind of man Adama is, and that's why we're discussing whether he'd have gone through with it.

We know that killing Cally would have been the right choice from a military perspective, but I'm not convinced Adama would do it, given the opportunity. I don't think he wouldn't do it either. I'm just not sure either way.

The most recent situation I can think of that comes close was on the algae planet, where I think we can all agree he wouldn't have nuked the planet, given that Lee and Kara were on it. So I guess by comparison, Cally is far less important and he could have gone through with it.

Consider, though, that the fallout would be too great. Given Cally getting killed, what are the chances the ship's crew would continue to work? He already threatened Tyrol so I don't think a cover-up could fool any of the crew. Also, don't you think he's learned a thing or two about what not to do from Admiral Cain? She did something quite similar to what y'all are proposing.

Admiral Adama has moved past the perspective of self interest. He understands that his interests must be those of the fleet; his position is too important to the fleet to allow a conflict of interest. That is why I believe he would have killed Cally, and why he would have nuked Lee and Kara.

Actually, I did consider the possibility that Adama would have nuked the planet. I would have been surprised, but moreso at the writers and not at Adama.

As Adama said, the union has no place in the military. The question really is how far Adama is willing to go to protect the survivors. Considering what we've seen over the past 3 years, that's pretty damned far. The difference between Adama and Cain is that what Adama does is put the interest of the fleet at the top. Cain put the interest of her ship at the top. That's a marked difference, though they may use similar methods.

Gilda: Thanks for clearing that up for me......please continue with your discussion unabated by an opposing viewpoint....:oogle:

I'm happy to have dissenting opinions because it makes for good discussion, and I made no argument regarding Adama's actions in that particular post.

I was pointing out that we understand that it's a scripted fictional show, and we were discussing a different point--Adama's motivation--from what you were discussing--the writers' motivations. Even if the writers would never have had Adama have Cally executed, it's still possible that, taken from the character's point of view, that Adama would have.

The thing is, we can't separate what the writers want, from what the characters want, from what the actors would have the characters do.

These three elements combine to form the result. We can discuss it from any angle we want.

To further clarify my point of view, the decision to shoot Cally was not actually in front of the Admiral yet... he was using it as a threat to get things back in line. I don't want to think about whether he would have done it if the gun (so to speak) was in his hand... I want him to be a good guy... damn you RDM for toying with my emotions like that.

Sure we can. It's possible to discuss the resulting work as an entity in itself that exists separate from what motivations went into creating it as it exists. I'd even argue that, once the decisions have been made and the product finalized, it becomes an entity that exists separate from whatever motivations the creators had for it.

Of course, but what I was reading here was a discussion of what Adama would have done, with nobody arguing about whether it was a fictional, scripted show.

I would say Baltar is totally evil. After being responsible for the death of billions, and thinking perhaps that you might never get caught, but you would have the knowledge that you did it, how do you think YOU would act? Lets just got with this whole innocent lamb thing for a moment. Maybe you don't come clean because that would get you shot, but you do your damnedest to make amens for it. Instead of lying about Cylon detectors, elections, giving the enemy nuclear weapons, perhaps you would try and make sure that you would never again be "led astray". Nope. Not this cat.

Plain and simple he consistently hurts others to his own advantage (many times leading to their death). He does this in cases both big and small.

Now does the show need a foil? Yep. Do I like him or his (evil) character? Nope, he is a filthy POS who needs to be tossed out the nearest airlock.

I thought he was more acting under red-dress six in his mind making him continue on, with him not powerful enough to fight her. I've always seen him as more of a broken person, with serious issues, and as gaeta said, a huge urge to stay alive.

Indeed, Baltar is, for the most part, a very weak person. Most of the things you mentioned, such as lying about the results of the cylon detector, were the result of Six messing with his mind. She (probably rightly) pointed out that if he had done anything about the results, Boomer would have killed him.

First the fleet, now the rest of you. He has you all fooled. Pathetic. . .

I hope he runs in '08. . . Then again, there are plenty of him already running.

I can't help but think that all this character development is build up for some really big event(s) that will really test the strengths and weaknesses of the main characters. And possibly form strange alliances among unlikely individuals.

Let's just say, you're right :)

Dont give it away!! Thank God, the spoiler was whited over! I dont want to know....Please! I hate to even see the previews....

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That was awesome!

I've stayed away for about two weeks. Boy, am I glad I came back tonight. Great episode.

Guess who's waking up in a big vat of goo?

Spoilers, dude.
Spoiler: It's also possible that she ejected and was picked up by the heavy raider. Or, she's dead. We can't rule that out, no matter how painful it is.

And once again, I forgot BSG moved to Sundays...:(

If you haven't seen the most recent episode yet, I don't know what you're doing reading this thread in the first place. But just in case, my post is filled with...

***SPOILERS***










So, I knew Starbuck was going to "die" as far as Galactica was concerned. The fact she was done shooting for the season after this episode wasn't exactly a well-kept secret, but I wasn't sure exactly what was going to happen. I have to say, I'm a bit disappointed.

Either 1) her "destiny" was to accept death, in which case it's the Lamest Destiny EVAR (TM), or 2) there's more to her destiny we were not shown. If there's more to it, they should have had some shocking revelation in the last moments of this episode, because without that final revelation as a cliffhanger, I'm left no choice but to assume #1 - her "destiny" is to accept death, and also the lamest excuse to kill off a character I've seen in a long time. If all they're doing is killing her off, they should have given her a death that makes more sense, not "gee, death's not so bad, I guess I'll just let myself die for no reason now." By bringing destiny into the picture, it makes it seem like there's more to her death than that, but you could have fooled me after watching last night's episode.

All it would have taken was a quick 10 seconds: show her wake up on a baseship, show her find herself transported through a wormhole, whatever. Just show SOMETHING to indicate that there's more to the episode than "Starbuck's destiny is to accept death." But, they didn't show anything else, all they showed is Starbuck blowing up. And no matter what they show at a later date, it doesn't change that this episode felt like one big contrived excuse to kill off her character - even more contrived than the excuse to kill off Kat - and nothing more.

I was shocked last night, and I'm still shocked. I can't believe that they did that to a main character. I thought she was going to survive again.

Where would be the fun in that? If Ronald Moore put something like that into the end of the episode it would completely take away from the shock of her dying because we would immediately know she was alright. I think its a great cliffhanger.

Now I'm even more convinced she's a Cylon.

See, the way the episode was filmed was not as a cliffhanger. It was filmed as the death of Starbuck - no more, no less. A cliffhanger would be to show a quick flash of her being alive somewhere: maybe a flash of her waking up on a baseship, or perhaps a quick moment where she's alive in some other dimension, or whatever. Instead, we were given an episode that wraps everything up, with her accepting death. No indication that there's more to come, except out faith as fans that the people behind BSG wouldn't write such a crappy and pointless death (and destiny) for a major character. I shouldn't have to rely on my faith in the writers to know that someone's death is a cliffhanger: they should have made some indication of it.

Being a BSG fan is all about having faith in the writers. Remember 'one year later'? Usually shows do that at the end of the series, but BSG did it when the ratings were strong and the show showed no signs of cancellation. From experience, we know the writers are allowed to really move in unorthodox directions. No matter what the outcome, I'd say this is one of those unorthodox directions.

That being said, I'm really pissed that we don't get any new Starbuck until October 2007.

It's be funny if Anders made a pass at Dee.....

That's the thing though: "One Year Later" *IS* a cliffhanger. It's easy to have faith when you're thrown a bone. The whole point of a cliffhanger is that you're given a strong hint of what's to come, but have to wait to find out how it plays out.

Think of it this way: this past episode with Starbuck was the equivalent of watching the season 1 finale where Adama gets shot and at the end of the episode he's declared dead. As a viewer, you're left with nothing other than to assume that what you've been shown is accurate - Adama is dead. Sure, the writers may reverse that in the season 2 premiere - someone will suddenly discover Adama is still alive but barely - but since you weren't given any concrete indication that there was more to come in that storyline, you spent the previous months thinking Adama was dead and with that as the primary image in your mind.

Better yet, an example from Star Trek. This past episode is the equivalent of watching an episode of Star Trek where a ship blows up with a major character in it, before they could be transported out, and then we see everyone sad that the major character is dead and they have a funeral for that person and everything. Next season, we suddenly discover that the person has been trapped in the transporter buffer and they manage to save that person. That's not a cliffhanger, that's just stupid. If it were a cliffhanger, the episode would have ended with some indication that the person is stuck in the transporter buffer and we'll be waiting anxiously for the next season to see how the crew gets them out of there.

Cliffhangers do not trick you. They entice you. Killing Starbuck only to bring her back in some way at a later date is tricking the viewer, and not even in a good way, because as far as death stories go this past episode was pretty bad. The only excuse for spending an hour with completely transparent references that say "LOOK! STARBUCK'S GOING TO DIE! LOOK HERE! LOOK HERE!!" is if you're going to give the audience something to redeem the episode at the end: a cliffhanger. A cliffhanger, by definition, leaves a very obvious opening without answering what is on the other side. That's why I say an extra 10 seconds or so would have saved this episode. They don't even have to answer why she's still alive, just show that she is. For example, they could show a close shot of Starbuck's face waking up - we don't have to see whether it's on a resurrection ship or in another dimension or anything, just something to show us "there's more to come." Instead, we're left with an episode that wraps up neatly and doesn't give any indication (beyond "I refuse to believe this episode was THAT pointless") that there was more to Starbuck's death than accepting death.

EDIT: And trust me, I don't enjoy saying this. BSG is easily my favorite show on television, but this past episode was just bad, and that's assuming they ARE going to do more with Starbuck. If they don't, then the episode was just plain terrible.

I agree her death at this point seems pointless, however if we are to believe she is destined to do something, I suspect that means she is more useful to Gallactica dead than alive. So does that mean returning as a useful "spirit" ?
I suspect some sort of post- death incarnation of this character to appear in future episodes.

Maybe her death serves to focus other characters, Lee, Anders, etc. Listening to the podcast, and please listen to the podcast, it seems as if she may not return but in memories. It's a damn shame, but I see it as being reasonable if for no other reason but it's realistic. Sure, most shows would never dream of losing a real main character. Riker would never die on TNG, for example. The reality is that in real life people die, especially in a war situation and especially especially when they are in a war situation and suffering from mental illness and are warriors. It's escaping from the bs marketing-driven part of fictional writing. While I will sorely miss the Starbuck character, I understand and I'll move on. If she does come back, great. If not, it's okay.