The Definative Matrix Revolutions Speculation Thread - Spoilers definately inside

[Sun Tzu]

Thanks Moobie for the suggested viewings. I've only watched the movies and now I remember that it was stated in the extras of Reloaded that you really have to watch everything and even play the game to fully understand the whole story.

[Moobie]

Definately watch the Animatrix it's so totally worth it, the music is awesome too. Plus there's a must see story about the "kid". You'll actually understand who he is.

I've never played the games so I have no idea what kind of story is in there to tie into the movies. I have no intention of ever playing the games and if they put information vital to the comprehension of the movie storyline in a friggin game then that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

So if anyones's played the games I'd be interested in hearing what they add to the story.

Also the online comics on www.whatisthematrix.com are pretty cool if you've got some time to waste. Not a whole lot of new info, but some pretty good exposition on the Matrix world in general.

[CSflim]

Originally posted by Moobie
Definately watch the Animatrix it's so totally worth it, the music is awesome too. Plus there's a must see story about the "kid". You'll actually understand who he is.

I've never played the games so I have no idea what kind of story is in there to tie into the movies. I have no intention of ever playing the games and if they put information vital to the comprehension of the movie storyline in a friggin game then that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

So if anyones's played the games I'd be interested in hearing what they add to the story.

Also the online comics on www.whatisthematrix.com are pretty cool if you've got some time to waste. Not a whole lot of new info, but some pretty good exposition on the Matrix world in general.

The amout of information that is to be had from Enter The Matrix is overstated in my opinion. you aren't missing a huge amount.

[Moobie]

Pretty much from what I've heard the only real info from Enter the Matrix is when Niobe goes to see the Oracle. What they talked about I don't know.

[ninjaz0r]

Did anybody else catch the exchange between Smith and the Oracle when she calls him a bastard and he says something to the effect of "you would know, mom." I was just wondering if anybody had any ideas about how that whole thing works.

[Moobie]

I believe he's refering to the fact that the Oracle is the mother of the matrix.

But I have a feeling that it's not so cut and dry as that. Usually there are dual meanings to most things in the Matrix. This seems too easy of a reading. Anybody else?

[Lasereth]

Originally posted by CSflim
The amout of information that is to be had from Enter The Matrix is overstated in my opinion. you aren't missing a huge amount.

Roger that. I downloaded all of the movies that you get to see with Enter the Matrix and it didn't explain a whole lot to the overall trilogy. The plot of Enter the Matrix is amazing, though. I wish that game would have been good. Niobe, Ghost, and Sparky were three of the coolest secondary characters in the trilogy.

Ghost and Niobe both had to go see the Oracle. I don't remember what she told Niobe, but I do know that it's revealed that Ghost is in love with Trinity but knows he can never have her. You also get to see some short but cool fight scenes with Seraph.

Persephone is also in Enter the Matrix. In order to reveal information that the rebels need, she makes them give her a kiss. Yes, Ghost and Niobe kissed her for the information they needed.

Simply enough, Enter the Matrix shows what's going on with Niobe, Ghost, and Sparky during Reloaded and Revolutions. None of it has a lot to do with the main plot, though.

-Lasereth

[Moobie]

I read a spoiler for Revolutions long before the movie came out that had a bunch of pictures from the trailers that said that "The Kid" was actually the One. In it they said that the Kid ended up taking over the Architects position. I've been trying to find it, but to no avail. Does anyone remember this or even does anyone have the link to it? I haven't been able to find it.

[SecretMethod70]

Alright, I FINALLY saw Revolutions and loved it. In fact, thank you to all the people who hated it in this thread for making me realize just HOW MUCH I loved it.

I've got to say - and I don't mean this in any way as a jab to anyone - but every single explanation I've ever heard for people disliking it is boiled down to one of three things: either 1) you missed one or many points that, frankly, were not that hard at all to extrapolate from what we're given in the movies, 2) you're simply upset because the movies didn't end the way YOU envisioned them to - and this is an understandable reason to dislike a movie to a certain extent, but not with as much malice as it seems many do, or 3) you can't look past the very few minor inconsistancies that there are in the movies (and by few I mean a couple, because most "inconsistancies" are actually not if you're willing to put the pieces of the puzzle together).

The movie was amazing - period. I'm not going to get into the many different things I saw criticized in this thread and explain them - at least not now - because I simply can't remember them all. But, I will point out that the sunrise ending really did have a lot of significance. The lack of green overtones as mentioned is not something that only a fanboy would notice - when symbolism like that is used throughout THREE entire movies, it's the kind of thing that most people paying attention should see. And the little girl wasn't pointless either - she was given a purpose to control the sunrise in the Matrix. That's why the oracle asked her if she "did that."

One thing I can say though is that, generally speaking, these three movies are a GREAT example why Square will never make a Final Fantasy VII game. Most EVERYONE love the original MAtrix movie and in the years between it and these 2, everyone came up with their own expectations as to what would happen. It was IMPOSSIBLE to meet everyone's expectations, so they weren't. Instead they simply did what they planned on doing all along - and if you watch the first movie with a keen eye you can see the seed being planted right away, i.e. the screen of televisions.

And, lastly, since I'm going on a rant here and there are so many things I want to say that I really have no structure to this post, I just wanted to address Neo's "powers" in the real world. The simple answer is, he didn't have any "powers" per se. At the end of the first movie, Neo and Smith joined. At that point, Smith became Neo's opposite and, like Smith said in the second movie, there was something of Neo left in him. That something was a little bit of Neo's humanity. Likewise, Neo took away from the experience a little bit of Smith's connection to the machines. Neo never had more strength or anything like that in the real world - he only had an innate connection to the machines. When he was blinded, all he could see was things related to the machines. He could not see Trinity or anything associated with humans in any way - only everything associated with machines.

Also, just like Morpheus said at some point in the trilogy, what happened could not have happened any other way. It's an exploration of purpose and everything fulfilled its purpose exactly as it should have. Trinity HAD to die AT THAT POINT or else Neo could not have let go of his life and done what he needed to do. The Oracle HAD to be absorbed by Smith or else Neo could not have realized what he had to do. Bane HAD to blind Neo or else he couldn't have realized the vision he was capable of and led them to the destination they had to go to in the Machine City. Everything simply HAD to happen the way that it did - it was inevitable. It was fate. It's really amazing how WELL everything is tied together.

Anyway, now that I've done nothing but rant on, I think I'll stop here and just say, once again, that this movie ROCKED.


EDIT: And, by the way, the first thing I said at the end of the movie was "I don't get it." I could have stopped there and not put my brain to work as to putting the pieces of the puzzle together, but I didn't - I thought and discussed and, for that, I am grateful, because now I am able to look on the trilogy as the great thing that it is.

EDIT2: Oh yeah, and if you haven't already then this is a good read for some of the less-specific symbolism of the movie: http://www.corporatemofo.com/stories/031109matrix.htm

[Ganguro]

hehe SM70.. you have a wee bit too much time on your hands..
Good job at defending a crappy movie though, Personally, im pretending it never happened.

[Moskie]

I've got to say - and I don't mean this in any way as a jab to anyone - but every single explanation I've ever heard for people disliking it is boiled down to one of three things: either 1) you missed one or many points that, frankly, were not that hard at all to extrapolate from what we're given in the movies, 2) you're simply upset because the movies didn't end the way YOU envisioned them to - and this is an understandable reason to dislike a movie to a certain extent, but not with as much malice as it seems many do, or 3) you can't look past the very few minor inconsistancies that there are in the movies (and by few I mean a couple, because most "inconsistancies" are actually not if you're willing to put the pieces of the puzzle together).

I gotta chirp in a say a few things here. I get the impression that people who praise all the symbolism of the Matrix movies are impressed with these movies because they've never witnessed such depth in a movie before. I often feel people are going through this epiphany with the series, where they say to themselves "Wow! A movie can have underlying themes and visual metaphors! Whodathunkit?"

I'm not an idiot (quite the opposite, in fact! ). I understand the themes and symbolism the Matrix series uses. I pay attention to things like this (in every movie I watch or book I read, etc... well, the ones where you get something out of doing so). Yes, the Matrix has these things. But I get impression that people ignore the fact that, after the first movie, the Matrix series lacks good scripting, plot, and characters (see my previous posts in this thread). They ignore this because they're too busy trying to figure out all the underlying stuff. That's all well and good, but please don't think that people are idiots for not liking these movies. Our standards are just placed differently. I like my movies to be superfically pleasing as well as deep.

I've seen and read plenty of works that have 10 times as much depth as some people claim the Matrix to have, but do not fail in the categories that the Matrix does (study some Shakespeare, then you'll know what I'm talking about. I apologize that I have to compare him to the Matrix, but some people seem to be putting the series on a very high pedastol). Anyway, the key difference between most of these works is subtlety. The Matrix shoves its themes down your throat. Take this for example:

Agent Smith: Why, Mr. Anderson? Why do you do it? Why get up? Why keep fighting? Do you believe you're fighting for something? For more that your survival? Can you tell me what it is? Do you even know? Is it freedom? Or truth? Perhaps peace? Yes? No? Could it be for love? Illusions, Mr. Anderson. Vagaries of perception. The temporary constructs of a feeble human intellect trying desperately to justify an existence that is without meaning or purpose. And all of them as artificial as the Matrix itself, although only a human mind could invent something as insipid as love. You must be able to see it, Mr. Anderson. You must know it by now. You can't win. It's pointless to keep fighting. Why, Mr. Anderson? Why? Why do you persist?
Neo: Because I choose to.

I challenge anyone to tell me that that's good, intelligent writing. Anyone who says it is... sorry, it's just horrible. And the second two movies are filled with this kind of trash. This is why I don't like the last two movies. Not because I don't understand the (often assumed) depth of the Matrix.

Sorry for the rant. I mean no harm.

[SecretMethod70]

Ganguro: Not time. The stuff I said in that post took about 15 minutes of talking with my friends after the movie to realize. Really didn't take that much thought at all.

Moskie: I'm glad to, er, read that Seriously. But I do think that you're in the minority as far as your true reasons. I have not seen one bad review that wasn't based on a simple lack of understanding - the one on CBS's website that was linked earlier is a perfect example. Likewise, most people's comments reflect the same type of thing.

But you're right - there are PLENTY of movies which have just as much or more meaning than the Matrix movies. Perhaps many people don't realize this, perhaps they do. But nonetheless I don't think that the 2nd or 3rd movie are any worse than the first - especially considering that, as was pointed out, the cliches, etc were just as present in the first.

Anyways, we're all of course entitled to our opinions.

[Sun Tzu]

Just bought Animatix and it was definatley enjoyable as well as giving the whole story a better foundation (especially The New Ren Part I and II).

I still dont fully understand why Neo has powers outside the Matix ie (being able to see after his eyes are torched, being able to disable machines, etc)

[Lasereth]

Originally posted by Moskie
But I get impression that people ignore the fact that, after the first movie, the Matrix series lacks good scripting, plot, and characters (see my previous posts in this thread).

Many critics give the trilogy good reviews because of these main aspects. I believe that the script (especially in Reloaded and Revolutions), plot, and characters were all the best aspects of the trilogy. I'd like to include a quote from one of my co-posters on a website I update:

I personally thought it was amazing, a great end to everything, with many great moments. I am truely baffled by the amount and verocity of some reviews and opinions of the movie, and after discussions with XXXXX and XXXX think at least a large part of it is people wanting it to be terrible. It seems in large part to be 'cool' to completely and irrationally bash the recent Matrix movies, while deifying the first one. While I know many people do have real criticisms and are not like that, I do believe that the number of the irrationally negative reviews is directly impacted because of this. In a way I almost feel sorry for those who gave it a chance and wanted it to be good and simply didn't like it on some level or had serious criticisms of it, as they are often lost in the anti-matrix furvor which has taken over. I find it incredibly sad that two of the greatest sci-fi movies of all time have fallen victim to this mass bandwagon of hating what was once 'cool', as being cool in and of itself. It is through these movies, and through many others recently, that I have realized that one of the problems with the majority of the movie critics is that they try to write what they hope people want to read. The reviews for Reloaded were much better than the ones for Revolutions on the whole, and I fully believe this to be a direct consequence of pandering to the expectations of readers. Before Reloaded, the anti-matrix sentiment was not as loud, not as much in the limelight, and on the whole people were hoping for a good movie. Thus, a tomatometer reading of 74%. In between then, when the anti-matrix crowd took control of media and blew out of proportion, reviewers realized that there were now more people wanting it to fail than the other way around, and thus a movie equally good and in fact half of the same movie got an astounding tomatometer reading of 37%. Consistancy is not in their vernacular. Perhaps worst of all is the anti-matrix crowd's declarations that their viewpoints are not only their own, but that they are complete and utter fact. So many times I have read that anyone who disagrees with them are only 'fanboys' who do not think of anything on their own, and that 'everyone' thinks the movies 'suck' and are terrible. If only half of the people making these statements would just listen to themselves sometime, I think they would realize they themselves are making the sort of statements that would usually infuriate anyone, including themselves, if they heard others saying the same thing. It truely is a sad situation, but I also fully believe time will bear it out and those of us who very much enjoyed the films and consider them to be great pieces of film will hold out and more will share our opinion over time. As it stands, this summer and fall, I saw two damn good fucking movies.

I couldn't have said it better myself. The only thing that I would like to add is the fact that the amount of time spent outside of the Matrix is constant to how much people liked the movies. The first movie was about 90% Matrix, and everyone loved it. Reloaded was about 60-70% Matrix, and there was controversy over whether it was good or not. Revolutions has about 15-20% Matrix in it, and the general population hated it. Maybe the general population wants to see whirly special effects and doesn't really care about the plot of the trilogy? Just a theory.

And for the record, an OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of the professional critics that didn't like Reloaded and Revolutions simply didn't understand the plot. I've seen countless reviews saying Revolutions was bad because Smith was more powerful than in the first one, and "agents are based on rules!" No shit, go watch Reloaded, Smith isn't an agent anymore. Little facts like these can change opinions on the trilogy. The only critic that gets all of the plot information correct and has rated these movies what they deserve to me is Roger Ebert. The first Matrix and Revolutions got 3 stars out of 4, and Reloaded got 3.5 stars out of 4. I have to agree -- Reloaded was my favorite. I don't care if critics or readers didn't like the last two movies, but don't say they suck based on false information...that's what most of those that hated them are doing.

-Lasereth

[Moskie]

Ok, admit it Las.... you either ARE Roger Ebert himself, or his agent. So which is it?

[Lasereth]

Originally posted by Moskie
Ok, admit it Las.... you either ARE Roger Ebert himself, or his agent. So which is it?

I've read over 500 of his reviews for the movies of the past 20 years and have disagreed with TWO. Two movies out of 500...I personally think he knows what the hell he's talking about. Those two movies were the Final Fantasy movie (which I hated because I love the games) and Fight Club (which I would have rated a bit higher).

*EDIT* I did an actual count, and it seems that I've read well over 500 of his reviews. They're addicting.

-Lasereth