Rekna

This Christmas i'm flying home to see my family. My family is from a small town about 6 hours away from Minneapolis. Luckily the town has an airport so I can fly straight into there but I have to first have a layover in Minneapolis. Well just today my family found out that they would be in Minneapolis the day I am flying home. So we decide it would be a good idea to just get off in Minneapolis and meet my family and then drive back with them.

So we called the airline to see if we could do this and they said if I don't board that second flight they will cancel my return flight. If I want to get off in Minneapolis I have to pay MORE money. hahah does that make any sense? I'm just asking to not board one of the planes i've already paid to board.

What makes me even more annoyed is the fact that they can just cancel my return flight if I don't board the plane. I've paid for the seat and that seat should be considered mine whether I board or not. There should be some laws about this crap. damn....

maleficent

Sadly, that fine print will get you every single time...

Shop around some more - you might be able to get a cheaper flight to minneapolise and then just just your existing ticket (with a change fare) at another point. Flying at christmas is the most expensive time of year to fly..

So you think we should regulate the airlines?

I agree it sucks... I don't fully remember flying before 1978 -- but from what I gather, it's a bit better and cheaper today...

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flstf

I used to fly from Seattle to Valdosta, Georgia on business a few years ago. All flights connected in Atlanta. The cost of a flight to Jacksonville was less than a flight to Atlanta even though it was the same plane and you had to connect in Atlanta with another flight to Jacksonville. To save money we would book the flight to Jacksonville and just get off the plane in Atlanta and not make the connection. Then we would book a flight to Valdosta on a small carrier. This was cheaper than booking a flight to Atlanta and then Valdosta.

The air carrier (Delta) told us we were not allowed to do this to save money but we did it anyway. I think it had something to do with the carrier trying to get more business for the Jacksonville airport and so they subsidized flights booked there but not those whose final destination was Atlanta.

Rekna

The problem is i still need the return trip to be from the small city. i'm kindof hoping they will offer me a bump when i get to Minneapolis, where i could stay there a day or so (or maybe just not take the rest of the flight). If that happens i could even get some free tickets

Rekna

Also I don't think we should regulate it but I think there should be general consumer laws stating that buisnesses must render services paid for.

maleficent

When I lived in NJ, and used to fly up to Manchester New Hampshire on a regular basis-- a flight booked on less than 2 weeks notice usually ran about 600 dollars (for a seat on a crappy little regional jet, for a 45 minute flight) Newark is a hub for ContinenHell... people could fly from the opposite coast or Europe and end up in Newark to continute on to manchester cheaper than what it cost me... for the final leg...

ContinenHell figured that the newark to manchester people were going strictly for business and woudl pay whatever was asked...

If I was more ambitious I'd give you a lot of links of the reasons why tis is done and how airline deregulation was the cause of it...

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sailor

Hahaha, depends on whether you consider them a necessary public infrastructure... Seems like the government does, as many times as they've bailed them out. Given that most of the airlines are still afloat because of government subsidies, I don't think its necessarily a bad thing to impose some consumer protection rules on them

Back on topic, yeah, the airlines are frequently counterintuitive. Like how it's cheaper to buy a roundtrip ticket than a one-way, even for the same flight. And things like what's happening with you. It's crazy sometimes...

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Gilda

I've never been able to understand certain things about the airlines, either. Like how having a ticket, an actual ticket, paid for six months in advance, not a reservation, a ticket in hand, doesn't guarantee a seat.

It was, oh, sometime in the late 90's. I'm flying home for Christmas. I buy my ticket months in advance to guarantee my seat. I show up for the flight two hours in advance of boarding, and am told that the flight is full, and I'll have to be put on standby. I ask why. I'm told that I failed to "confirm my reservation" 48 hours in advance of the flight. I explain, very politely, that I don't have a reservation, I have a ticket. I'm told that that is irrelevant, as airline policy states that all seats have to be confirmed 48 hours prior to departure or the seat can be resold.

While waiting on standby, I reread the ticket, and damned if it doesn't say specifically that it's a reservation that has to be confirmed, and that I was right, not that it does me any good. I got on a flight on a different airline the next day.

So it's a week later, and I call 48 hours in advance to confirm my reservation (which wasn't a reservation at all, but a ticket I'd paid for six months before) and I'm told that my seat has been resold. The return flight was cancelled when I didn't take the outboard flight, the flight they didn't let me on.

So they refuse to let me take a flight for which I had a ticket, then cancelled a second flight because I didn't take the first flight that they wouldn't let me take.

It's just one of the many, many things I hate about airline travel, and why I drive whenever possible.

Gilda

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Carno

While there is a lot of bullshit, a lot of the stuff they do has a good reason behind it. What you see and think as a customer is not what they see as a business. Things like overbooking and reselling seats are done for good reasons, from their point of view.

Airlines sell a perishable product, so they try to get every damn seat filled on that aircraft, one way or another. If they don't, they lose money big time.

I could explain some of the other stuff they do, but I don't really care to right now, unless somebody has any questions. All I have to say is read the fine print. That ticket is a contract, and if you don't read the rules of that contract and something happens, then you are SOL. Not their fault.

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rmarshall

So, what really happens to you if you try to take advantage of the system? As above, sometimes the round trip is cheaper than the one way. I was trying to book a holiday last year and wanted to go from Syracuse NY to Gran Canaria Spain, to Stuttgart Germany and then back home. I found that it was cheaper to get a round trip ticket to Gran Canaria, then a round trip ticket from Gran Canaria to Stuttgart, then a round trip ticket from Stuttgart to home than it would have been for one way all around. I thought, so what, I'll just go one way and fail to get on the return flights. Would they try to penalize me in some way? Would they look at the collection of tickets and say "oh no, you can't be in two places at once"? Would I be arrested?

We ended up with a round trip to Stuttgart and then a round trip to Gran Canaria from Stuttgart because it was cheaper, but we were seriously jet lagged and had only a few hours to sleep before going back to the damn flug hafen. And the damn airline lost some of our bags. Luckily we got the bags 5 minutes before boarding to go to Gran Canaria.

Note, with 2 adults and three children, pack some of each person's clothes in each bag in case not all the bags make it.

5757

My dad has worked for United Airlines for 20 years, so luckily we know what tp do in situations like this. Next time, if there happens to be one, just "MISS" the flight. They won't be upset with you for doing that. It happens everyday. Of course if you ask them they are going to make a big deal out of it. I happen to love when people miss their flights. That means I get on the plane, as, i do fly standby. haha.
When you miss the flight, they sometimes will even help you out with a free ticket for "next time"

Gotta know how to play em.

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BigBen

I'm sorry, but the language used here makes me respond. The airlines do not sell a product (nor do they sell a perishable one). They sell a service. That service is transportation. I hate to nit-pick, but in the language of business and Economics, there is a distinct difference. I blame The Apprentice and Donald Trump for this faux pas, as he is always calling services "Products". A perishable good is a piece of fruit, not a fare on a plane. Notice that you are not buying the seat, but the priveledge of sitting in it for a very defined period of time.

Well, notice that the fine print of that contract also restricts several other recourses once you have entered into it. In business law, I can think of no other contract that is so one-sided as a transportation voucher on a yank airline. Do the benefits (fast transport) outweigh the costs and risks associated with flying? Not in my books.

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losthellhound

With many airlines if you miss ANY leg of a flight they reserve the right to cancel the ENTIRE itinerary. Dont risk "missing" a flight and expect to get back on. I can name ten airlines that will screw you over.. not because they want to, but because thier computer will do it for them

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Carno

Yes, you are right. I don't know what you mean by Donald Trump and The Apprentice, but I use the word product because that's what I've heard many of my professors and many airline execs refer to it as. It's not correct, but due to the nature of the industry, that's what a lot of people call it.

Say you have a dry cleaning business. People come in and drop off their clothes, and you clean them. If someone calls and says they are going to be coming in at 3pm to drop off their clothes, but then doesn't, it's really no skin off your back. Someone else can come in at 3pm and drop off their clothes and it's all the same to you. You can still serve someone else at 3 pm despite the fact that the guy who called in did not show up.

An airline, however, cannot serve anybody else once that aircraft has left the gate. If they reserve a seat for you, but you don't show up and the jet leaves without you, that service is gone for ever. They can never sell that 3pm seat from New York to Dallas ever again, because once that jet leaves, it's gone. That service in that point of time has perished.

I forget the exact percentage, but between 5 and 15% of people who reserve seats on a flight never show up. So it makes sense for an airline to overbook a jet because historically speaking, not everyone is going to show up and get on that jet.

If you miss the first flight on a round trip ticket, then they are going to assume that you are not going to be on the return flight. Why should they assume that even though you missed to flight from New York to Dallas, that you will be waiting in Dallas for the return trip to New York? From their point of view, you did not get on in New York, so you can't possibly be in Dallas. So they might as well sell that seat on that aircraft to someone else.


So what? They are not holding a gun to your head and making you enter in to that contract. You are free to not buy that ticket if you don't like the terms of the agreement.

You may think that driving or taking a train is better than flying, but plenty of people don't. That business man that has to be in Dallas tomorrow or he'll lose the multimillion dollar contract sure doesn't.

The thing with the airlines is that it's a business anomaly. There isn't really any other industry that is so cutthroat for such small profit margins (that I know of anyway). I'm not an expert on this stuff though, this is only what I've been taught at school and what I've learned during my internship with one of US airlines. This only applies to US airlines, by the way. I'm not exactly sure what the situation is in Canada, or the rest of the world.

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maleficent

exactly - and they will charge thru the nose or other orifices to reticket you... it's rarely for free. and if it's your screw up - they will not compensate you by giving you a free ticket.. heck they screw up themselves on connections and don't compensate.

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joemc91

It really depends WHY you miss the flight. If you really missed it because you were running late, had an emergency, etc. they will generally work with you and get you on a later flight. However, if you admit to working the system, they will work you back. Often in the contract is something saying that if you skip a portion of a trip (say buy a ticket through a hub but get off at the hub), they can cancel the rest of your trip (including return) and charge you for the walk up ticket price of the one way ticket to the hub. It's very rare that airlines will enforce this.

Carno

Airlines are so hurtin for money right now that I wouldn't expect any sympathy for them.

The airlines are so fucked up that they all should have been dead and gone a long time ago, both for having shitty customer service and for having fucked up business models. But they are necessary for this country, so they will continue to survive.

Many experts think that the aviation industry is still shaking itself down since deregulation, and that it probably won't stabilize and get better for a long time.

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shakran

Careful not to paint all airlines with the same brush. Southwest, for one, avoided the hub/spoke system, avoided expanding to something unmanageable, and is doing quite well even during this time of mass airline money loss. It also helps that the flight attendants are all crazy and will do all sorts of cool stuff during the flight. Always like to fly them.

maleficent

Southwest and jet blue and the rest of the cheap airlines fly exactly where they want to fly from.... the airports they fly out of aren't convenient (and southwest's service is beyond shitty) It'd be pretty easy to make money if you are picking where you will and wont fly out of.

the major carriers don't have that luxury...

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Carno

Yeah, my last post was way too generalized.

I was speaking more of the legacy airlines than the newer ones like Southwest and Jet Blue.

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shakran

hehe. Yeah, you're right. Flying from Vegas to BWI or from Albuquerque to Orlando is SO inconvenient Southwest has a great route structure as long as you are travelling from or to somewhere in the southwest. That's its mission. If it tried to expand to these convenience routes that the major carriers do, it too would be losing money.

And you must've had a bad experience. I've never had a problem with them myself.

rmarshall

I believe that in my hypothetical scenario above, it would have been three itineraries. Sure they all would have been booked through Expedia.ca, but they would have been three round trips and I would be purposely missing the return legs of each. Just because I didn't get on on the return leg to Syracuse, I don't think they'd cancel my ticket to Stuttgart, especially since it would likely be a different airline.
I would only do that if 1- is is cheaper than a series of one way trips and 2- I don't have time or want to fly all over in order to do the round trips their way. Booking yourself online doesn't give you the option to go from point A to point B to point C and back to point A. Perhaps I should have used a travel agent. Would they have helped?

maleficent

I'm not sure about expedia - because I've generally found it cheaper and easier to go directly to the airline's website.. but most airlines will let you book a multi city trip - it's not always cheaper - but it gives you one intinerary.

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Carno

I think you would be fine missing the return trips of each round trip ticket. If you were going to miss the first trip then I would advise against it, but you should be fine. ASnd no, they won't cancel your other two tickets if you miss the return trip. They shouldn't anyways, because they are all separate business agreements.

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flstf

I don't understand why they should do this. Why do they care if you get off at the hub if you already paid for the whole trip. You paid for the seat whether you are sitting in it or not so they already got their money. I could understand them cancelling your return trip and refunding that portion your money but I don't think that is what is happening here. In fact aren't many of these rates based on a no-cancellation option?

In the case of the OP, they just want to miss one leg of the flight itinerary which means that one of the flights will go with an empty paid for seat. How does this hurt the carrier?

maleficent

they do it, i'd imagine, to get people to keep to their schedules... otherwise people woudl get on whatever flight they wanted...

anyone old enough to remember people's express will doubtfully remember them fondly.. that was an airline run like greyhound... you paid for your seat when you got on the plane... you had a reservation that was sometimes honored... but since you didn't pay for the seat yet - it was hit or miss as to whether you actually got on the plane..

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losthellhound

Maleficent - I'd love that.. My work would hate it, they like me to schedule my flights before its even confirmed I'm going

(I've also acheived more airmiles then anyone I know in ten months)

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cyrnel

I used to enjoy air travel. Now I wonder if it wouldn't be easier to find a nice, secure crate & pack myself with a couple SCUBA tanks for FedX. The service & food would be similar, barring a forklift through the forehead.

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denim

The word is also used that was in telecommunications, insurance, banking...

I don't fly if it's at all avoidable. I just went to AAA to get Tripticks(tm) for my Thanksgiving roadtrip to Ohio.

Charlatan

Before you know it you will be Super Elite or Elite... the lounge, priority check in, priority luggage, it makes travel all that much easier.

I don't know what I would do without access to the lounge.



Greyhound actually ran an airline in Canada for a time. It was the first "no frills" airline here. When Greyhound was purchased by a company with large holdings in either Canadian or Air Canada, part of the purchase agreement was that they stop the airline.

They ran it much like Ryan Air or Easy Jet does in Europe.

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canuckguy

Whenever I think of airlines I always have the song by ac/dc in the back of my head....

"got you by the balls"

Gilda

Sure this makes sense, selling a seat to someone else after someone doesn't show up to take their reservation. What doesn't make sense is selling the same seat more than once, especially at a crowded time like just before Christmas. If I hadn't shown up, that seat wasn't going empty, as there was a big crowd of people waiting for standby seats. I know, because there were some half dozen standby people--people who I assume bought a last minute ticket-- who got on the flight for which I had an actual paid for seat that I bought several months in advance and for which I was at the airport some two hours in advance for a domestic flight.

It was insanely frustrating to watch stand-by passengers boarding a plane I had an actual ticket for and wasn't allowed on. They had empty seats at departure. I had a ticket, not a stand-by just-in-case-there-are-extra-seats-available ticket, an actual ticket for that particular flight. It would make sense to give a passenger with a ticket bought months in advance precedence of those who showed up late.

I'm ranting, I know. It still bugs me.

But if they refuse to let you board, then arrange for you to get to your destination on a different flight, it would make sense to assume that you'd be at your destination and would be coming back.

I know that wasn't directed at me, but I just had to vent.

Gilda

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Carno

Yeah that is pretty shitty, but that is how it happens with airlines nowadays.

That's why I don't particularly like to buy tickets online too. They always come with wierd shit that is too easily fucked up.

The airline you bought the ticket from set it up for you to take a flight on a different airline?

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maleficent

People's Express had a good concept - it was carried out very poorly - anyone old enough to have ever flown them... did not shed a tear when they went under...

I'd love some airline to come along to cater to business travellers... fly to the major markets (alternate airports I don't mind so much just get me close enough), on a business schedule(ie early morning flights late afternoon flights) and don't charge more for last minute tickets. And keep children off the plane or at least in the baggage hold.

Wait'll you hit one million miles flown... and you wonder exactly how much time you have spent in airports to accumulate so many miles...

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maleficent

that happens a lot - ContinentHell calls them Codeshare partners -- the carrier you booked on originally doesn't fly where you want to go -- so they partner up with another airline... Northwest is one of ContinentHell's Codeshare partners..

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denim

It should bug you. Maybe if it bugged enough people, something would be done. Personally, I think the way to go is to vote with your feet. Let the big carriers go bankrupt. I won't cry for them.