School Violence, Are We Fostering It? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Bill O'Rights · 03-03-2004, 07:31 AM

When Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold forever changed Columbine High School, I was one of the very few people to number them with the victims. I didn’t have to wonder what drove them to such extremes…I knew. They had been driven over the edge by those that taunted, harassed and abused them. In no way am I condoning their actions, but I do understand why they did what they felt that they had to do. People seem to be so quick with the mantra; “Where were the parents?”. I say; where was the system? Where was the safety net that could have protected Harris and Klebold, and prevented them from feeling so trapped that mass murder and suicide seemed like a viable option?

I am submitting to you, an article from yesterdays Omaha World Herald, the local rag that I read. Following the article, I am including some local reader’s comments, in response to the article.

Click here to see the original article in the Omaha World Herald.

Quote:

Kayla Brengman, 13, lay in the snow and took the beating.

She wished her mother would drive up and scatter the crowd of students pressing in around her Feb. 10 on a hill near the running track at La Vista Junior High School.

Six girls - four of whom arranged the first letters of their first names to call themselves the "S.M.A.K" girls - hit, slapped and kicked her, according to police reports.

Then one of the girls bent down, Kayla said, and left a warning: "If you tell anyone, we'll hurt you again."

Kayla didn't tell, at first.

Neither did the crowd of about 15 other kids who watched the beating and even chanted and taunted her.

The failure of onlookers to take action made the incident strikingly similar to the Feb. 19 beating of a Millard North High School student. That attack was videotaped by another student and watched by a crowd of up to 20 students, who had driven to the victim's house, police said.

Bystanders to violence are increasingly getting the attention of psychologists as school officials try to spur them to report incidents, said a psychologist with the University of Nebraska-Lincoln.

"What we're really trying to understand more about are these kids who watch bullying or an aggressive act and then don't intervene," said Susan Swearer, assistant professor of educational psychology and an expert on bullying.

Kayla got only bumps and bruises, thanks, in part, to a quilted parka, said her mother, Beth Roth of Papillion.

But Roth feels "just sick" that no one in the crowd intervened or ran for help. She said students need more education on how to handle these situations.

Annette Eyman, spokeswoman for the Papillion-La Vista Public Schools, described the incident at La Vista Junior High as "horrible." Eyman said school officials share Roth's concern about the bystanders.

"That's the thing that makes the school so disgusted with this incident," Eyman said.

After the beating, district officials sent letters urging parents to tell children what to do if they witness fights and bullying.

The letter asked parents to talk about peer pressure and "about not using popularity or violence to intimidate other students."

District officials are discussing whether more education is needed in the classroom, she said.

Swearer said incidents like these serve as a "wake-up call" to schools. But turning bystanders into good Samaritans isn't easy, she said.

Bystanders often must overcome intense peer pressure or intimidation to take action, she said. Teens tell researchers that reporting or trying to stop an incident can be "the kiss of death," she said.

"If you intervene, that's risky, you may get it next time," she said.

"I guess people just really don't care," said Kayla, whose parents placed her in a private school after the incident. "They just want to fit in with the popular crowd."

Her mother said parents share responsibility.

"Around here, there's a lot of the tail wagging the dog," Beth Roth said. "Teenagers are calling the shots."

Now, here are some comments from some Omaha area people that read that article, in the paper.

Quote:

So, Papillion LaVista is "horrified" at the little girl being assaulted. I voiced my concerns to Papio Jr High eight years ago about the bullying at that "zoo of a middle school", in the hallways, between class change. I received nothing but lip service from the district. My son would come home from school with cuts and scratches, from being slammed against lockers. Appears nothing has changed with the districts attitude.

Quote:

I feel for Mrs. Roth and her daughter. My child, attended LaVista Jr. High in 1997, was confronted by 4 female gang wantabees, & 20 other student onlookers, ready to cheer them on. School officials made me feel like my kid was the problem, and to deal with it. I told the Asst. Principal, at that time, if my daughter was assaulted, I was holding them personally responsible. It later came out that they had had over 300 police calls to LaVista Jr. High that year. The same problem exists.

Quote:

My child used to attend the middle school in Fremont. The bullying, a lot by girls not just boys, went on constantly. Kids hate to go to school unless they're one of the few rich beautiful people. One girl was attacked in the bathroom and they cut her long hair off. There's no protection for our kids.

Quote:

I had the same problem with my daughter. I never had the problem with my sons because they made it clear that the three of them would stand together against anyone who wanted to fight one of them. My daughter was younger and not as aggressive as her brothers. It took visits to the school, to the police station with the names of the girls harassing her and threats to the parents of those girls and their friends with restraining orders and lawsuits before they backed off and left her alone. Fight fire w/fir

Why am I still reading about this crap in 2004. Have we learned absolutely nothing from Columbine? Was it only good for forwarding an anti-gun agenda. Wake the hell up people. It’s situations like these that give birth to the Dylan Klebolds, and the Eric Harris. We created them. We nurtured them by doing nothing more than being the bystanders that this article denounces. Maybe, just maybe,it could be stopped if we hit the problem head on, and attacked it at its’ roots…the “bully”. Maybe the school district could do just a little more than;

Quote:

After the beating, district officials sent letters urging parents to tell children what to do if they witness fights and bullying.
The letter asked parents to talk about peer pressure and "about not using popularity or violence to intimidate other students."
District officials are discussing whether more education is needed in the classroom, she said.

Sorry for the ramble. What do YOU think?

Psivage · 03-03-2004, 08:07 AM

There will always be bullies, no matter what people do, it is human nature to pick on the weak. There nothing to stop it, sure we all in a up rage after a school shooting vowing that it will never happen again, and yet it does.

Pragma · 03-03-2004, 08:17 AM

I agree completely - it pisses me off that school officials and parents are incapable of doing more than "looking into the problem" or just saying "now don't do that again". It angers me even more that the wrong people get the blame (such as the guy's kid in one of the letters who was beat up).

There's no wonder that some of these people have had enough shit and decide to get even.

CinnamonGirl · 03-03-2004, 08:27 AM

I never understood the "let's stand around and watch" thing. I can KIND OF see stopping to watch two people fight, even though I was never one to do that myself. But a group of people beating up on one person, or someone obviously stronger kicking the shit out of another kid? C'mon now...

I sat here and tried to think, okay, what's it going to take to stop something like that? But the only thing that came to mind was "what the hell is wrong with you?" ("you" being the bullies, and those that just stand and watch.)

Are the teachers/administrators just not paying enough attention? I went to a pretty small school, so fighting and bullies weren't a huge problem (at least, not to the extent of some of the larger schools in the area), but it seems like everytime there was a fight, one of the teachers jumped in and broke it up.

SaltPork · 03-03-2004, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Psivage
There will always be bullies, no matter what people do, it is human nature to pick on the weak. There nothing to stop it, sure we all in a up rage after a school shooting vowing that it will never happen again, and yet it does.

Bullying is one thing and I agree with you, there will always be bullies. But this is more along the lines of gang type violence and apparently it comes with it's own audience.

I was the target of this type of thing once in 9th grade. It sucked, but other kids saw what happened and put a stop to it. The bigger problem is that other kids are afraid to stand up to these bullies. Unfortunately, that's all they have to do. Show that they are not going to be easy targets and the bullying will stop.

Part of the problem with these bullies lays squarely on the shoulders of the parents of the bullies and part of the responsibility lays on the shoulders of the school.

The parents shouldn't be raising kids that are assholes, plain and simple.

The school system should be able to provide a safe environment for all kids while they are on school property. If this means forgoing some liberties and privacy then fine. If that's what it takes to ensure the safety of my child, then great. Would it suck that it comes to that? Absolutely. I'll tell you what though, I would do just about anything to ensure the safety of my child. And anyone that tells you they wouldn't do the same is a liar.

Done ranting.

krwlz · 03-03-2004, 09:24 AM

One way to deal with bullys... Make it not worth their time. Hit em back... Its gunna hurt like a motherfucker for a while, but they wont come back if they know picking on you means pain.

A system would be great, but face it... we cant watch people all the time. Its an impossibility to make bullying go away completly.

Its up to the parents of both the bullys and the victims to teach their kids a better way. Stand up for yourself if you are a vicitm...

If its the parent of a bully... it may be, in part, too late. Kids need to be taught morals at an early age, before they taste the power that goes along with bullying.

mystmarimatt · 03-03-2004, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by krwlz
One way to deal with bullys... Make it not worth their time. Hit em back... Its gunna hurt like a motherfucker for a while, but they wont come back if they know picking on you means pain.

But wouldn't you consider this the same kind of sentiment that can lead right back to Columbine? "It's okay to fight back, but this time, i'll use a 9 mm."

I can completely understand wanting justice and and emotional vindication from the victims' side, but there has to be a different way. In some ways, just going to the system, getting help and watching your victimizer be ripped apart and torn down by the system can be vindication enough, I've seen it happen. It's a much more sinister, emotionally satisfying victory.

Bill O'Rights · 03-03-2004, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Psivage
There will always be bullies, no matter what people do, it is human nature to pick on the weak.

So, do we not, at some point expect the weak to lash back?

Quote:

Originally posted by Pragma
It angers me even more that the wrong people get the blame (such as the guy's kid in one of the letters who was beat up).

This has happened to my own daughter. She was being harrased, in English class, by a teenage "gangsta". To the point where it became physical, and sexual. (he was grabbing her breasts) She reported the incidents, and was subsequently moved to another class, halfway through the semester. It was easier for the administration to deal with her than it was to deal with the actual problem. In essence, they are are afraid of the gangsters, and refuse to deal with it.

Quote:

Originally posted by wrkime
Part of the problem with these bullies lays squarely on the shoulders of the parents of the bullies and part of the responsibility lays on the shoulders of the school.

Agreed! But, that ain't happenin'. The parents of these little hooligans are either non-existant, gangsters themselves or in self-denial. As far as theschool systems go, I firmly believe that they are, in a lot of cases, physicaly afraid to take action, for fear of retribution. It's much easier, and safer, to take action detrimental to the actual victim.

Quote:

Originally posted by krwlz
One way to deal with bullys... Make it not worth their time. Hit em back....

Ah...there's the rub. They are hitting 'em back. I firmly beleive that's what Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold did. They hit 'em back...in the only way that they could. I would bet you dollars to donuts that the school watched as these two got the snot beat out of 'em, all the way up from grade school, and did not do a damn thing to intervene. Then we act all so shocked when they lashed out in complete frustration and dispair.

Quote:

Originally posted by mystmarimatt
In some ways, just going to the system, getting help and watching your victimizer be ripped apart and torn down by the system can be vindication enough, I've seen it happen. It's a much more sinister, emotionally satisfying victory.

You've seen it happen. I'm glad. I'm not being sarcastic here, I truly am glad. I have not seen it. The system is a complete, total miserable failure. First the 'victim' is beaten by the bully, then the victim is beaten yet again...by the very system that should be there to at least provide support, if not protection.

Cynthetiq · 03-03-2004, 10:39 AM

IMHO bring back the afternoon boxing ring. Let people settle their differences in a physical bout, monitored by the school staff.

I was bullied in school since I was a runt growing up. I got sent to the principals office because I didn't want to fight back. I didn't want to fight with my fists.

Schools can't even teach well you expect them to be able to deal with bullies too?

thejoker130 · 03-03-2004, 01:30 PM

My own theory on bullies is that they should be identified stripped down naked and hung from the school flagpole by their thumbs with barbed wire and left there for all the world to see until they learn that being a bully may not be the best way to go.

*this is a former bullied person speeking*

Lebell · 03-03-2004, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mystmarimatt
But wouldn't you consider this the same kind of sentiment that can lead right back to Columbine? "It's okay to fight back, but this time, i'll use a 9 mm."

I can completely understand wanting justice and and emotional vindication from the victims' side, but there has to be a different way. In some ways, just going to the system, getting help and watching your victimizer be ripped apart and torn down by the system can be vindication enough, I've seen it happen. It's a much more sinister, emotionally satisfying victory.

NO!

I am completely the opposite: It is our society's view of "be a victim", "DON'T fight back", "Be passive" that is responsible for at least some of this today.

We teach our kids and each other that it is the police, the teachers, somebody, anybody, else who is responsible for keeping us safe when IT IS OURSELVES!

Yes, going through channels is great, but if the school administration isn't going to do anything to stop a bully then yes, I will teach my child to fight back.

CrazySaturn · 03-03-2004, 03:02 PM

Parents are getting much more lax at the teachings of right and wrong, and they also seem to have much more of a problem keeping up good communications with their children. IMHO parents are one of the largest problems. Society isn't some uncontrollable beast, it's a product of people's emotions. If everyone learned how to actually handle problems rationally the world would be a lot better off.
That said, the world isn't rational, and it's my belief to hit someone back if they come at you.
As for the Columbine'ness of that statement, I don't believe it rings true. Those boys didn't hit back against the stereotypes they were portrayed as, they promoted them. And all the anger they built up from the mental tauntings they were given just built up, ready to explode.

timalkin · 03-03-2004, 03:04 PM

Hell, my school had a zero tolerance policy. If you were involved in a fight, you were expelled. It didn't matter if you were reading a book, minding your own business and some punk ass punched you in the back of the head with no warning. The innocent person should try to kill their attacker, because you really don't have much else to lose, in my opinion.

krwlz · 03-03-2004, 03:53 PM

You all make a very good point... I guess thats where the upbringing plays a roll.

I used to get picked on, so I feel stongly on it. I had to work for my respect, but now I have it. After I got out of highschool, I definatly didnt need to do that anymore.

The senitiment remains though.

j8ear · 03-03-2004, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lebell
NO!

I am completely the opposite: It is our society's view of "be a victim", "DON'T fight back", "Be passive" that is responsible for at least some of this today.

We teach our kids and each other that it is the police, the teachers, somebody, anybody, else who is responsible for keeping us safe when IT IS OURSELVES!

Yes, going through channels is great, but if the school administration isn't going to do anything to stop a bully then yes, I will teach my child to fight back.

Nod sir. Well put.

I will also teach my child to fight back, to be strong and effective, and to protect those who are weaker and worthy of protection. Personal responsibility is the corner stone of the upbringing I intend to apply to my growing but unborn daughter. Life is a quest for knowledge and successes, with necesary failures along the way. Ultimately the capability to pass this accumulated wisdom on, to better our place. Be bullied, be a bully, then learn the awesome responsibility that strength, mental and physical, coupled with experience brings to any situation, and use it wisely. Directing and steering. Creating win-win situations, and minimizing loosers. Bear in mind that there will always be a looser. The world is full of winners and loosers. Maybe the loosers need to be informed....have looser status reinforced and assisted with improving.

I was also struck in this thread by a minimization of the those pyschopath's parents in Columbine. Those people are at least 80 percent culpible in this massacre for NOT KNOWING that their boys had hundreds of pounds of weaponry, ammunitions, explosives, and other hasty incindiary devices, IN THE FUCKING HOUSE.

The public school education system is a complete failure, sacrificing quality knowledge driven curriculum's for political and social experimentation. Mired in bureaucratic fiscal unaccountability, and changing the tests to meet the standards, instead of teaching the material to have standards met. I have no idea where to start, but suspect it involves vouchers. Your tax dollars spent on something other then worthless government corruption and solving problems exclusively with money. They have become catch-all assylums for the children of this country, herded like lambs to the slaughter, taught whining and complaining, victimization, and scandal.

**Does anyone else find it odd that only one of the three R's ACTUALLY begins with a fucking R!**

Finally, I can't believe for a second that your daughter was sexually assaulted, and the police weren't summoned to take someone away in handcuffs. Am I missing something?

Wow, much longer then I thought. Not sure if it all ties in, but I'll post and reread...clean up later.

best,

-bear

**Not original. Heard or read this somewhere, but can't actually place it**

tfin · 03-03-2004, 05:11 PM

Wow, bring on the repressed memories.

When Colombine happened I was actualy happy. 2 years before I had been in HS and I had been those people. I was beat, a lot, and no one ever did anything about it. I hoped with Colombine that the bullies would learn a lesson. But it did not work. The sad thing is that it needs to happen again, and again, till people realize that this shit is real.

When I was in HS I was assulted bad. I did not even see it comming. He came up behind me, started choking me. When I finally hit the ground he started to just bang my headin to the floor for the fun of it. Then the principal told me I was going to get expelled due to the 0 tollerance policy, but the guy who whooped up on me would not. This sounds even worse but thank god that the principal commited sucide before they expelled me.

First hand I know the absolute incompetince of school officials. I mean hell, just 1 year after I graduated they hired a new guidance counsler. Well after 20 girls steped forward to file sexual harrasment charges they finally suspended him. Then in court it was found out that he was hired knowing full well that he was fired from his last job for being a pedophile.

That was a porly put together rant but oh well.

mystmarimatt · 03-03-2004, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lebell
NO!

I am completely the opposite: It is our society's view of "be a victim", "DON'T fight back", "Be passive" that is responsible for at least some of this today.

We teach our kids and each other that it is the police, the teachers, somebody, anybody, else who is responsible for keeping us safe when IT IS OURSELVES!

That's great that you can say that, it is. Unfortunately, I don't have that option, as I can hardly use the left side of my body. If somebody wants to pick on me, unless they're a complete runt, I'm basically defenseless.

You should also tell that to the child in the wheelchair, I'm sure he'll appreciate being told he should fight back, stick up for himself, without using a gun or anything.

For some of us, going through a medium, getting help is the ONLY option we have. My brother fought with people who made fun of me growing up. And while i wish he didn't HAVE to fight them, i was grateful for the help. You cannot say we are ALL responsible to fight back, stick up for ourselves, because some of us CAN'T.

Soggybagel · 03-03-2004, 11:15 PM

So many thoughts in my mind right now. First off just as a little front, I think that Girls in society now are getting even worse than guys. I mean did you see/remember that High School "hazing" incident with those girls. I think its more that guys will fight and it will be over where as girls have this whole other psychological war (maybe?? I'm not one so I can't speak for them).

Any case I think that parents are partially to blame but honestly if you were the parent of a smarter but quiet kid you would probably respect there space. I know for a fact that I could have amassed a small arms supply without my parents knowing while I was in highschool. I didn't, but honestly it wouldn't have been hard to do so. The "MOB FACTOR" is everything though. If a fight breaks out you just watch. You cheer them on. There is no thought into what is really going on. I mean take a look at any riots...more importanly after a sporting event. One or two or even 15 of them wouldn't do much. 500 people will get out of control and crazy.

I will agree though that it comes down to parents to start early and teach morals. If any school shooters had been taught a bit more about what is right and wrong, a school shooting wouldn't happen.

Lebell · 03-04-2004, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mystmarimatt
That's great that you can say that, it is. Unfortunately, I don't have that option, as I can hardly use the left side of my body. If somebody wants to pick on me, unless they're a complete runt, I'm basically defenseless.

You should also tell that to the child in the wheelchair, I'm sure he'll appreciate being told he should fight back, stick up for himself, without using a gun or anything.

For some of us, going through a medium, getting help is the ONLY option we have. My brother fought with people who made fun of me growing up. And while i wish he didn't HAVE to fight them, i was grateful for the help. You cannot say we are ALL responsible to fight back, stick up for ourselves, because some of us CAN'T.

I'm sorry, but I completely disagree.

At least half of standing up for yourself is attitude.

No, it won't stop a determined bully from picking on you, but children shouldn't be afraid to take agressive steps, such as reporting bullies to the proper authorities.

And as for a disabled adult, it is up to you whether or not you own a gun, but one of the very GOOD things about guns is that they allow the physically weak to defend themselves against much stronger advisaries.

Do you really think this is a bad thing?

guthmund · 03-04-2004, 12:40 AM

I agree with you, Lebell. I remember getting out any number of fights using a little bit of attitude.
That being said, the schools we grew up in are very different then the ones my kids will go through. In my day, fists were a last resort. Today kids seem to be too quick to pick up a knife or a gun.

And I agree that there should be some authority that these kids could go to. However, I have to ask....what authority?

Parents don't want to teach their children right from wrong and expect the school system to teach them citizenship.

At the same time, school administrations are scared shitless to deal with these kids for fear of legal reprisal. Any serious punishment and the parents, who previously didn't care, are suddenly very concerned with disciplinary precedure and talking to their lawyers. Anything else is a joke. Can't get rid of the troublemakers or they lose money. At least, that's my understanding, feel free to correct.

You can't punish them; you can't get rid of them. It's a damned if you do situation and it doesn't look to be changing anytime soon.

mystmarimatt · 03-04-2004, 12:42 AM

Hey, I'm all for sticking up for myself, If somebody says "Fuck you", I'll make a really smart-ass comment right back. but if it comes to blows and they feel the need to physically attack us, we disabled people are at a disadvantage.

As for going to the proper authorities, that's what i was advocating, that we push going to the authorities, because not all of us have the luxury to fight back.

And as far as the guns go. Yes, It can be a bad thing, look at Columbine. sure, they may have shot a few people they hated, but innocent people died too, because they were flat out disgruntled, and I never want to put myself in that position, where I'd even consider it, because I'm human, and I may snap.

As much as I may despise a bully, and want him to suffer, I'd really rather do the humane thing, report him, and see that he gets helped.

edited for grammar, because my hands are really freakin' cold

Lebell · 03-04-2004, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mystmarimatt
Hey, I'm all for sticking up for myself, If somebody says "Fuck you", I'll make a really smart-ass comment right back. but if it comes to blows and they feel the need to physically attack us, we disabled people are at a disadvantage.

As for going to the proper authorities, that's what i was advocating, that we push going to the authorities, because not all of us have the luxury to fight back.

And as far as the guns go. Yes, It can be a bad thing, look at Columbine. sure, they may have shot a few people they hated, but innocent people died too, because they were flat out disgruntled, and I never want to put myself in that position, where I'd even consider it, because I'm human, and I may snap.

As much as I may despise a bully, and want him to suffer, I'd really rather do the humane thing, report him, and see that he gets helped.

edited for grammar, because my hands are really freakin' cold

Well,

I respect the fact that you admit that you don't feel trustworthy with a gun. I wish some gunowners would do that.

As to the rest, well then that's also what we're talking about, isn't it?

Why do people stand around and watch the weak get beaten and not do anything?

And with that, I go back to my original premise: we are teaching people not to get involved, that someone else will take care of it, anyone, but not us.

Personally, I get involved.

Bill O'Rights · 03-04-2004, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by j8ear
I will also teach my child to fight back, to be strong and effective, and to protect those who are weaker and worthy of protection. Personal responsibility is the corner stone of the upbringing I intend to apply to my growing but unborn daughter. Life is a quest for knowledge and successes, with necesary failures along the way. Ultimately the capability to pass this accumulated wisdom on, to better our place.

Very good. And with 0 sarcasm intended, I wish you all the luck in the world with that.

Quote:

Originally posted by j8ear
I was also struck in this thread by a minimization of the those pyschopath's parents in Columbine. Those people are at least 80 percent culpible in this massacre for NOT KNOWING that their boys had hundreds of pounds of weaponry, ammunitions, explosives, and other hasty incindiary devices, IN THE FUCKING HOUSE.

I will agree with you...to a point. As a parent, of a teenager, I can tell you from experience that, while I do maintain a very active involvement in her life, I do not know everything. Add to that the mixed signals that parents get today. "Give the child his/her space.", "Don't go snooping through their things.", Respect his/her privacy." VS "How could the parents not know?" "Where were the parents." etc. Yeah, I know that there's a fine line, but when you're a parent, that line gets damn fuzzy. Doubt me? Wait.

Quote:

Originally posted by j8ear
The public school education system is a complete failure, sacrificing quality knowledge driven curriculum's for political and social experimentation. Mired in bureaucratic fiscal unaccountability, and changing the tests to meet the standards, instead of teaching the material to have standards met. .

I agree with you 100%, on this one. No argument offered...none given. Well said.

Quote:

Originally posted by j8ear
Finally, I can't believe for a second that your daughter was sexually assaulted, and the police weren't summoned to take someone away in handcuffs. Am I missing something?

Believe it!
My daughter was verbally abused and harrased, for the better part of the semester in one particular class. One day, one of the more prominent of her "abusers", cornered her and started feeling up her breasts. She broke a desk getting away from him, and reported the incident to her school counselor. The entire incident was just trivialized as; "Well, boys will be boys. After all Mr. O'Rights, we were boys once too, now weren't we." Substitute the last name for my real one, and that's a direct quote. I still remember it. My daughter was suspended for 3 days, for breaking the desk, and was forced to change to a different class, which she subsequently failed, because they were working on different material. I had to pay for the desk.

I am of the belief that the school was afraid to do anything to my daughters "attacker" (I hate to use those terms, but that's what he was.) because he is a known member of the Crips gang. They are afraid of retribution. Now, how do you fight that. How do I teach my daughter to report any abuse, much less sexual abuse, when the school system just taught her that she will be the one made to pay?

Here's another example, from another poster. I do not question him one damn bit. I've seen, with my own eyes, exactly what he's talking about.

Quote:

Originally posted by tfin
When I was in HS I was assulted bad. I did not even see it comming. He came up behind me, started choking me. When I finally hit the ground he started to just bang my headin to the floor for the fun of it. Then the principal told me I was going to get expelled due to the 0 tollerance policy, but the guy who whooped up on me would not.

Don't tell me this stuff doesn't happen, because it does.

j8ear · 03-04-2004, 07:16 AM

Forgive me, It's not that I didn't believe you, instead I have trouble with the outcome.

Did law enforcement get involved? Your daughter was sexually assaulted, and that's a felony. Regardless of what that corrupt, scared shitless adminstration thinks. In fact, some could argue that the adminstration NOT involving law enforcement is Obstruction of Justice, and a felony in itself. Their is something going on in Morris County, New Jersey, with a situation very similar. School administrators waiting two months to inform law enforcement about a sexual assault. It was being swept under the rug, with state sanctioned complicity, but has recently resurfaced, with a disgusted community calling for some bureaucratic heads to roll. Plus the accused has been booked on felony charges, juvee, sure, but public humiliation none the less.

Does a school yard incident change law enforcement jurisdictions?

-bear

Bill O'Rights · 03-04-2004, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by j8ear
Did law enforcement get involved? Your daughter was sexually assaulted, and that's a felony. Regardless of what that corrupt, scared shitless adminstration thinks.

No, law enforcement was not involved. Whether, or not they should have been is relative. Yes, I was a 15 year old boy once myself. I grabbed my share of boob and butt. But, I stopped, when I was told to. Mine was in fun, whereas his was to intimidate. I believe, anyway. Boys may be boys, but this is a different day and age. Things are not the same.

In the end, it is not the actual grabbing of her breasts, that has affected my daughter, it's the injustice in the way that it was handled. She was made to pay the price. That is what will stick with her for the rest of her life, not the fact that she got felt up by a teenage boy.

My point is, the schools are failing in all possible ways. They are failing at education. They are failing at providing a safe environment for students to learn. Instead of attacking the problem at it's core, they are taking the easy way out by further humiliating those who are at the most danger of becoming school shooters. When the system fails them so often, why do we wonder in that they feel they have no other recourse?

Lebell · 03-04-2004, 09:30 AM

BOR,

I can't even begin to voice my disgust at your daughter's experience

I wish I had an answer to this, but I don't.

Bill O'Rights · 03-04-2004, 02:39 PM

Thanks, Lebell. That's appreciated. But, it's done and over with. She dealt with it, probably more maturely than I did.

My point is that her experience wasn't even a fraction of the tip of the iceberg. Make no mistake, I was bullied in school. But, not like what I see now. Add to that, Those that are bullied really have nowhere to turn for any justice. They get beaten by a bully, then beaten again, by the system. What do we expect them to do?

raeanna74 · 03-04-2004, 04:45 PM

I was on of the OUT few in school myself. I can recall a number of punches and scratches I recieved. I remember by 2nd grade fighting back and actually causing injury. I ended up in the principal's office more times than I can count and eventually in the school counselor's office. It wasn't because I sought out fights but when I got picked on I stood up for myself. I was the one being detained after school and sent to the school counselor to find out why I was such a "troubled" child. I still feel bitter about it.

Today - I see my neighbor boy come home from school this year after ONLY the second day of school with a big black eye. The neighbor girl who I watch after school 3 days a week has come to me several times with mud on her clothes or even a shoe print on her jacket from the kids on the bus. An older friend of hers has vouched for her truthfullness of the story. She had a goober in her hair one day too. Does the school know? Yeah. Have they talked to the kids - who knows. It doesn't seem to end. This girl is only in 2nd grade where will this go in 6 years? My daughter is not going to our school district. She will be homeschooled. I will be sure to involve her in many extracurricular activities to get proper socialization but those will be activities where I can be present and deal with the bullying myself. Not to sound like I will be overly protective. I will teach my daughter to fight back. Today we do need to turn to authority for justice but we also need to know how and when to protect ourselves too. I won't jump into every situation to protect her from bullying. There is a boy in our neighborhood who tends to be a brat. I've taught my daughter how to deal with it with or without my help. She has gone to his mom and also learned to ignore it when possible. Most bully's find encouragement in our reactions. When you can remain stoic their efforts loose strength. Take the power back from bullies and use it to our advantage.

When I taught school there was one boy who harrassed the girl. Grabbed one girls skirt and lifted it up and reached for another girls breasts. He was severely reprimanded and his parents called. I spoke to his Dad and his Dad argued that his son would never do that, he was just too sweet and mild. There was nothing more I could do. From then on I never let him out of my sight or alone with girls unless he was with another teacher that I teamed up with to watch him. She was aware of the situation and watched him closely. I was forced to leave other students at times to make sure I knew what he was doing and where he was. I didn't even let him in the bathroom with the boys because he yanked out his winkie in the bathroom and waved it at the other boys. The sad part is this was a parochial school and the school administration just kept record of the incident and did nothing more. It was left to me to call the parents they did nothing.

I find this disgusting that those kids could have thought that it was even remotely ok to do what they did. I also find it terrible that the students aren't more closely supervised. I'm glad that girl came out.

I'm sorry for the trial that your daughter went through also Bill. There is no excuse for that.

03-03-2004, 08:17 AM	#3 (permalink)
Pragma I am Winter Born Location: Alexandria, VA	I agree completely - it pisses me off that school officials and parents are incapable of doing more than "looking into the problem" or just saying "now don't do that again". It angers me even more that the wrong people get the blame (such as the guy's kid in one of the letters who was beat up). There's no wonder that some of these people have had enough shit and decide to get even. __________________ Eat antimatter, Posleen-boy!

03-03-2004, 08:27 AM	#4 (permalink)
CinnamonGirl She's Actual Size Location: Central Republic of Where-in-the-Hell	I never understood the "let's stand around and watch" thing. I can KIND OF see stopping to watch two people fight, even though I was never one to do that myself. But a group of people beating up on one person, or someone obviously stronger kicking the shit out of another kid? C'mon now... I sat here and tried to think, okay, what's it going to take to stop something like that? But the only thing that came to mind was "what the hell is wrong with you?" ("you" being the bullies, and those that just stand and watch.) Are the teachers/administrators just not paying enough attention? I went to a pretty small school, so fighting and bullies weren't a huge problem (at least, not to the extent of some of the larger schools in the area), but it seems like everytime there was a fight, one of the teachers jumped in and broke it up. __________________ "...for though she was ordinary, she possessed health, wit, courage, charm, and cheerfulness. But because she was not beautiful, no one ever seemed to notice these other qualities, which is so often the way of the world." "Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?"

03-03-2004, 10:39 AM	#9 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	IMHO bring back the afternoon boxing ring. Let people settle their differences in a physical bout, monitored by the school staff. I was bullied in school since I was a runt growing up. I got sent to the principals office because I didn't want to fight back. I didn't want to fight with my fists. Schools can't even teach well you expect them to be able to deal with bullies too? __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

03-03-2004, 01:30 PM	#10 (permalink)
thejoker130 Insane Location: slippery rock university AKA: The left ass cheek of the world	My own theory on bullies is that they should be identified stripped down naked and hung from the school flagpole by their thumbs with barbed wire and left there for all the world to see until they learn that being a bully may not be the best way to go. this is a former bullied person speeking __________________ WHAT MORE CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR IF NOT FOR THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN? ------------------------------------- I like you. When the world is mine your death will be quick and painless.

03-03-2004, 03:02 PM	#12 (permalink)
CrazySaturn Insane Location: Champaign, IL	Parents are getting much more lax at the teachings of right and wrong, and they also seem to have much more of a problem keeping up good communications with their children. IMHO parents are one of the largest problems. Society isn't some uncontrollable beast, it's a product of people's emotions. If everyone learned how to actually handle problems rationally the world would be a lot better off. That said, the world isn't rational, and it's my belief to hit someone back if they come at you. As for the Columbine'ness of that statement, I don't believe it rings true. Those boys didn't hit back against the stereotypes they were portrayed as, they promoted them. And all the anger they built up from the mental tauntings they were given just built up, ready to explode. __________________ What's the difference between you and a mallard with a cold? One's a sick duck...I can't remember how it ends, but your mother is a whore!

03-03-2004, 08:07 AM	#2 (permalink)
Psivage Psycho	There will always be bullies, no matter what people do, it is human nature to pick on the weak. There nothing to stop it, sure we all in a up rage after a school shooting vowing that it will never happen again, and yet it does.

03-03-2004, 09:24 AM	#6 (permalink)
krwlz Fledgling Dead Head Location: Clarkson U.	One way to deal with bullys... Make it not worth their time. Hit em back... Its gunna hurt like a motherfucker for a while, but they wont come back if they know picking on you means pain. A system would be great, but face it... we cant watch people all the time. Its an impossibility to make bullying go away completly. Its up to the parents of both the bullys and the victims to teach their kids a better way. Stand up for yourself if you are a vicitm... If its the parent of a bully... it may be, in part, too late. Kids need to be taught morals at an early age, before they taste the power that goes along with bullying.

03-03-2004, 03:04 PM	#13 (permalink)
timalkin Addict Location: watching from the treeline	Hell, my school had a zero tolerance policy. If you were involved in a fight, you were expelled. It didn't matter if you were reading a book, minding your own business and some punk ass punched you in the back of the head with no warning. The innocent person should try to kill their attacker, because you really don't have much else to lose, in my opinion.

03-03-2004, 03:53 PM	#14 (permalink)
krwlz Fledgling Dead Head Location: Clarkson U.	You all make a very good point... I guess thats where the upbringing plays a roll. I used to get picked on, so I feel stongly on it. I had to work for my respect, but now I have it. After I got out of highschool, I definatly didnt need to do that anymore. The senitiment remains though.

03-03-2004, 05:11 PM	#16 (permalink)
tfin Insane Location: At the Casino	Wow, bring on the repressed memories. When Colombine happened I was actualy happy. 2 years before I had been in HS and I had been those people. I was beat, a lot, and no one ever did anything about it. I hoped with Colombine that the bullies would learn a lesson. But it did not work. The sad thing is that it needs to happen again, and again, till people realize that this shit is real. When I was in HS I was assulted bad. I did not even see it comming. He came up behind me, started choking me. When I finally hit the ground he started to just bang my headin to the floor for the fun of it. Then the principal told me I was going to get expelled due to the 0 tollerance policy, but the guy who whooped up on me would not. This sounds even worse but thank god that the principal commited sucide before they expelled me. First hand I know the absolute incompetince of school officials. I mean hell, just 1 year after I graduated they hired a new guidance counsler. Well after 20 girls steped forward to file sexual harrasment charges they finally suspended him. Then in court it was found out that he was hired knowing full well that he was fired from his last job for being a pedophile. That was a porly put together rant but oh well. __________________ Did I mention that I can't spell or type? Oh yeah, check out my car www.cardomain.com/member_pages/view_page.pl?page_id=275916

03-03-2004, 11:15 PM	#18 (permalink)
Soggybagel Psycho Location: Lovely City #1	So many thoughts in my mind right now. First off just as a little front, I think that Girls in society now are getting even worse than guys. I mean did you see/remember that High School "hazing" incident with those girls. I think its more that guys will fight and it will be over where as girls have this whole other psychological war (maybe?? I'm not one so I can't speak for them). Any case I think that parents are partially to blame but honestly if you were the parent of a smarter but quiet kid you would probably respect there space. I know for a fact that I could have amassed a small arms supply without my parents knowing while I was in highschool. I didn't, but honestly it wouldn't have been hard to do so. The "MOB FACTOR" is everything though. If a fight breaks out you just watch. You cheer them on. There is no thought into what is really going on. I mean take a look at any riots...more importanly after a sporting event. One or two or even 15 of them wouldn't do much. 500 people will get out of control and crazy. I will agree though that it comes down to parents to start early and teach morals. If any school shooters had been taught a bit more about what is right and wrong, a school shooting wouldn't happen.

03-04-2004, 12:40 AM	#20 (permalink)
guthmund big damn hero	I agree with you, Lebell. I remember getting out any number of fights using a little bit of attitude. That being said, the schools we grew up in are very different then the ones my kids will go through. In my day, fists were a last resort. Today kids seem to be too quick to pick up a knife or a gun. And I agree that there should be some authority that these kids could go to. However, I have to ask....what authority? Parents don't want to teach their children right from wrong and expect the school system to teach them citizenship. At the same time, school administrations are scared shitless to deal with these kids for fear of legal reprisal. Any serious punishment and the parents, who previously didn't care, are suddenly very concerned with disciplinary precedure and talking to their lawyers. Anything else is a joke. Can't get rid of the troublemakers or they lose money. At least, that's my understanding, feel free to correct. You can't punish them; you can't get rid of them. It's a damned if you do situation and it doesn't look to be changing anytime soon. __________________ No signature. None. Seriously. Last edited by guthmund; 03-04-2004 at 12:45 AM..

03-04-2004, 12:42 AM	#21 (permalink)
mystmarimatt Omnipotent Ruler Of The Tiny Universe In My Mind Location: Oreegawn	Hey, I'm all for sticking up for myself, If somebody says "Fuck you", I'll make a really smart-ass comment right back. but if it comes to blows and they feel the need to physically attack us, we disabled people are at a disadvantage. As for going to the proper authorities, that's what i was advocating, that we push going to the authorities, because not all of us have the luxury to fight back. And as far as the guns go. Yes, It can be a bad thing, look at Columbine. sure, they may have shot a few people they hated, but innocent people died too, because they were flat out disgruntled, and I never want to put myself in that position, where I'd even consider it, because I'm human, and I may snap. As much as I may despise a bully, and want him to suffer, I'd really rather do the humane thing, report him, and see that he gets helped. edited for grammar, because my hands are really freakin' cold __________________ Words of Wisdom: If you could really get to know someone and know that they weren't lying to you, then you would know the world was real. Because you could agree on things, you could compare notes. That must be why people get married or make Art. So they'll be able to really know something and not go insane. Last edited by mystmarimatt; 03-04-2004 at 12:46 AM..

03-04-2004, 07:16 AM	#24 (permalink)
j8ear Gentlemen Farmer Location: Middle of nowhere, Jersey	Forgive me, It's not that I didn't believe you, instead I have trouble with the outcome. Did law enforcement get involved? Your daughter was sexually assaulted, and that's a felony. Regardless of what that corrupt, scared shitless adminstration thinks. In fact, some could argue that the adminstration NOT involving law enforcement is Obstruction of Justice, and a felony in itself. Their is something going on in Morris County, New Jersey, with a situation very similar. School administrators waiting two months to inform law enforcement about a sexual assault. It was being swept under the rug, with state sanctioned complicity, but has recently resurfaced, with a disgusted community calling for some bureaucratic heads to roll. Plus the accused has been booked on felony charges, juvee, sure, but public humiliation none the less. Does a school yard incident change law enforcement jurisdictions? -bear __________________ It's alot easier to ask for forgiveness then it is to ask for permission.

03-04-2004, 09:30 AM	#26 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	BOR, I can't even begin to voice my disgust at your daughter's experience I wish I had an answer to this, but I don't. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

03-04-2004, 02:39 PM	#27 (permalink)
Bill O'Rights will always be an Alyson Hanniganite Location: In the dust of the archives	Thanks, Lebell. That's appreciated. But, it's done and over with. She dealt with it, probably more maturely than I did. My point is that her experience wasn't even a fraction of the tip of the iceberg. Make no mistake, I was bullied in school. But, not like what I see now. Add to that, Those that are bullied really have nowhere to turn for any justice. They get beaten by a bully, then beaten again, by the system. What do we expect them to do? __________________ "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

03-04-2004, 04:45 PM	#28 (permalink)
raeanna74 I'm not a blonde! I'm knot! I'm knot! I'm knot! Location: Upper Michigan	I was on of the OUT few in school myself. I can recall a number of punches and scratches I recieved. I remember by 2nd grade fighting back and actually causing injury. I ended up in the principal's office more times than I can count and eventually in the school counselor's office. It wasn't because I sought out fights but when I got picked on I stood up for myself. I was the one being detained after school and sent to the school counselor to find out why I was such a "troubled" child. I still feel bitter about it. Today - I see my neighbor boy come home from school this year after ONLY the second day of school with a big black eye. The neighbor girl who I watch after school 3 days a week has come to me several times with mud on her clothes or even a shoe print on her jacket from the kids on the bus. An older friend of hers has vouched for her truthfullness of the story. She had a goober in her hair one day too. Does the school know? Yeah. Have they talked to the kids - who knows. It doesn't seem to end. This girl is only in 2nd grade where will this go in 6 years? My daughter is not going to our school district. She will be homeschooled. I will be sure to involve her in many extracurricular activities to get proper socialization but those will be activities where I can be present and deal with the bullying myself. Not to sound like I will be overly protective. I will teach my daughter to fight back. Today we do need to turn to authority for justice but we also need to know how and when to protect ourselves too. I won't jump into every situation to protect her from bullying. There is a boy in our neighborhood who tends to be a brat. I've taught my daughter how to deal with it with or without my help. She has gone to his mom and also learned to ignore it when possible. Most bully's find encouragement in our reactions. When you can remain stoic their efforts loose strength. Take the power back from bullies and use it to our advantage. When I taught school there was one boy who harrassed the girl. Grabbed one girls skirt and lifted it up and reached for another girls breasts. He was severely reprimanded and his parents called. I spoke to his Dad and his Dad argued that his son would never do that, he was just too sweet and mild. There was nothing more I could do. From then on I never let him out of my sight or alone with girls unless he was with another teacher that I teamed up with to watch him. She was aware of the situation and watched him closely. I was forced to leave other students at times to make sure I knew what he was doing and where he was. I didn't even let him in the bathroom with the boys because he yanked out his winkie in the bathroom and waved it at the other boys. The sad part is this was a parochial school and the school administration just kept record of the incident and did nothing more. It was left to me to call the parents they did nothing. I find this disgusting that those kids could have thought that it was even remotely ok to do what they did. I also find it terrible that the students aren't more closely supervised. I'm glad that girl came out. I'm sorry for the trial that your daughter went through also Bill. There is no excuse for that. __________________ "Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama My Karma just ran over your Dogma.