i can prove that it is impossible to do good - Page 3 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

BoCo · 09-12-2003, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 3leggedfrog
no good as in a good deed. all good deed are inherently selfish so to do good is impossible.

Jesus died for our sins, selflessly.

MacGnG · 09-12-2003, 07:41 AM

self-sacrific is selfless.

Marius1 · 09-12-2003, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MacGnG
self-sacrific is selfless.

Not nessisarily. What if its because they want to become famous as a martyr?

Or believe they will have a better afterlife due to their self sacrifice?

Cynthetiq · 09-12-2003, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Marius1
Not nessisarily. What if its because they want to become famous as a martyr?

Or believe they will have a better afterlife due to their self sacrifice?

the old man who goes down with the ship allowing the child and young couple to board the lifeboat... selfless. no reward, no martyr, not necessarily afterlife

second guessing or adding supposition invalidates the argument to me, because you are then giving specific conditions to make the argument fit.

Marius1 · 09-12-2003, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cynthetiq
the old man who goes down with the ship allowing the child and young couple to board the lifeboat... selfless. no reward, no martyr, not necessarily afterlife

second guessing or adding supposition invalidates the argument to me, because you are then giving specific conditions to make the argument fit.

You mean like what you just did?

You can't just say 'self sacrifice' and imply that all self sacrifice is selfless if their are conditions that meet the selfish criteria.

Cynthetiq · 09-12-2003, 11:30 AM

correct that's the whole reason why I stated it as such. because it invalidates my argument. it just has to be as is face value. you don't know someone's intentions, you can guess, but you cannot know.

Xiangsu · 09-12-2003, 12:46 PM

There is nothing wrong with doing something for selfish reasons. So if you save someone it doesn't take away the fact that it was a good deed.

3leggedfrog · 09-12-2003, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr. Spacemonkey
. Okay so then it is a question your asking, not proof that your giving. Yes is the answer to the question in my opinion.

i was proving my argument by logic. i was not asking a question. sorry its hard to explain. logic takes apart a argument and condences it to simple saying. ex. all ___ are ____ or some ___are not___ . There are ways to read a argument and state whether it is false or not by the constructin of the argument or theory. most arguments and theories can be proven false this way. think of it as a version of the scientific methoid.

Quote:

Originally posted by Fibrosa
Actually I think you are begging the question twice 3legged.

First, by assuming there is such a truth as "good" and "evil" and second by assuming that selfishness is evil. In addition, how can a person NOT be selfish?

"logic" seventh edition, by Patrick J. Hurley U of San Diego defines begging the question as. "Arguer creates the illusion that inadequate premises are adequate by leaving out key premise, by restating the conclusion as a premise, or by reasoning in a circle". ok what key premise did i leave out. did i use Circular logic?

Quote:

Originally posted by motdakasha
...you are not willing to accept the possibility of truly white deeds."

yes i am. but i am a skeptic also, so i must question why.

3leggedfrog · 09-12-2003, 02:14 PM

Wile E
sorry i will have some good research in a future post. i have never really researched this topic so you must forgive me when i say i need some time to find some credible sources. my use of the logic argument was an attempt to prove my argument with out research.

jwoody
thanks, i hope to keep this debate interesting.

Quote:

Originally posted by Marius1
Happy is good, correct?
If I do a good deed for someone and he is happy and I am happy and no one is unhappy its good.

okay that is a good definition of good. but let me ask you what happen when you take away the reason for someone to do good? will you still do that good deed. if no then while the outcome of the good deed maybe "good" the deed it self, by being motivated by selfishness, is not. if you believe that selfishness is not good. (oh boy i can hear people typing argerly on that statement.)

Quote:

Originally posted by Marius1
If everyone was only concerned with oneself in every single action they took how would that affect society. Could society in fact function under those circumstances?

sure read a social contract by hobbes ( i only believe in hobbes on my bad days) according to hobbes all morality is a way to avoid confict with one another. in a natural state humans are nasty, brutish, and violent. they make mutual beneficial contracts with one another. ex. i will not kill you if you dont kill me.

Mr. Spacemonkey · 09-12-2003, 02:15 PM

And yet still no proof . . . *shakes head*

edit: but i still am enjoying the debate

3leggedfrog · 09-12-2003, 02:20 PM

look at my logic argument. or wait until i will find some good sources. i have never researched this topic before.

nothingx · 09-12-2003, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BoCo
Jesus died for our sins, selflessly.

He did? I don't recall him pouring lamp oil on himself and setting himself on fire for me... I don't recall him piercing his own heart with a dagger for me... As I recall, he was executed by the state for being a cult leader.

BoCo · 09-12-2003, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by moelester
He did? I don't recall him pouring lamp oil on himself and setting himself on fire for me... I don't recall him piercing his own heart with a dagger for me... As I recall, he was executed by the state for being a cult leader.

He was sent here to die by His Father, and even talked of His own death--as it would eventually happen--long before it actually happened. He was not a cult leader.

Marius1 · 09-12-2003, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 3leggedfrog
i am taking all comers i can prove that it is impossible to do good.

Quote:

Originally posted by 3leggedfrog
look at my logic argument. or wait until i will find some good sources. i have never researched this topic before.

:Marius translates:

I can prove a theory, but I have to find proof, I didn't bother to look into the topic before I made a claim i could prove it.

:Marius comments:

Hmmmmmmmm

DownwardSpiral · 09-12-2003, 04:06 PM

Well said Marius, couldent have said it better myself.

3leggedfrog · 09-12-2003, 04:10 PM

*sigh* there is more than one way to prove something true or false.

not be be mean or anything but before your can "translate" what i said, you need to understand what i said. in logic, if one cannot find a fallacy and the argument is constructed correctly then it must be true.

a fallacy is defined as "A statement or an argument based on a false or invalid inference" by dictionary.com. Before your start saying that you know that my argument is false because... whatever your reason.... look up fallacies in a logic book and tell me the correct fallacy my argument is flawed with.

Quote:

:Marius translates:

I can prove a theory, but I have to find proof, I didn't bother to look into the topic before I made a claim i could prove it.

my translation:
i think i can prove my argument is true by logic, but if you want me to prove that my argument is true by another way please wait until i researce this topic. i started this thread a few days ago on a whim sleep depraved.

DownwardSpiral · 09-12-2003, 04:14 PM

You can't logically prove that good is impossible to do, Frog, the only option you have is to do some sort of research on it. Might be a hard topic to research though.

3leggedfrog · 09-13-2003, 02:38 PM

yes you can, philosophers have been proving their philosophies with logic for thousands of years.

Mr. Spacemonkey · 09-13-2003, 04:26 PM

Okay then, if you say you can prove it with logic . . . THEN DO IT.

You keep on saying that you can prove it but you sure aren't showing any.

Booboo · 09-13-2003, 06:36 PM

The Reason your argument that it is impossible to do good is flawed to me.. is because your telling me how I feel when doing something "good". You say I do it for my own personal motives.. how do you know this? I can not on a whim do something good because I just happen to feel like doing it? If there is a feeling of goodness or it does something for you to do this "good" deed.. it does not matter. I know I dont do good deeds to get off. I just do them because its something I do.

Even if it is done for selfish reasons.. Just because something is selfish does not mean its a bad thing, or a wrong thing. A car is about to hit me.. I move out of the way. By your reasoning this is selfish and bad. Others may see this as a good deed simply because they rely on me in some way.

I see no reason why something can not be selfish and good at the same time. It is all a matter of opinion... and yours does not hold much weight to me.

Edit: It also depends on what you decide "good" is and what defines doing "good"

Thanks

I hope this makes sense.. I'm very tired right now. and even if you dont agree with it. Its how I see things.

DownwardSpiral · 09-13-2003, 06:41 PM

This thread hasn't proven that good is impossible yet, waiting. . . waiting. . .

Mr. Spacemonkey · 09-13-2003, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DownwardSpiral
This thread hasn't proven that good is impossible yet, waiting. . . waiting. . .

It's useless to even wait. You know why, it's because it will NEVER happen.

3leggedfrog · 09-13-2003, 06:45 PM

fine i had time to sit and think over your proof over a glass of wine tonight. here goes

Fredrich Nietzche's will to power. he stated that there are only two types of people slaves and masters. masters rule over the slaves. to counter act this the slaves invented morals and religion to try to limit the masters power.

aristotle's pyrmid of virtue. for ones psyche to be in good health one must balance the soul between will and appetite (desire). all your actions are based off of either fullfilling or denying your appetite. all things in moderation. all our actions are based on desire.

hume in a very simplistic metaphore we (humans) are all just wind up toys that god created in the begining of time. there is no good or evil because we are just following a set pattern. free will is just a illusion. can't do good if we are just wind up toys. (the matric reloaded philosophy behind the Prophecies)

Jean-Paul Sartre we are born on this earth without being given a chooice. we learn the most terrible knowledge that we will die. we and all those around us are finite. there is no good nor evil just chooices. while we are alive there are no rule books that we can judge ourselves "good" nor "evil". we have our institions to guild us but they cannot tells what is truly right for us. ie thou shall not kill. what if there is someone trying to kill us. the rules to live by that the christian god wrote down in what we call the commandments. i would use other religions but it would take too long to explain those religions. sorry.

Sigmund Freud id, ego, super ego. id = selfish desires. ego= that which controls the id. super ego ethics we learn from our culture.

like i said this argument has been aroud for a very long time.

more later.

Booboo · 09-13-2003, 06:47 PM

I still dont see why something is not a good deed if done for personal reasons.. again I think its all in your beliefs and opinions.

DownwardSpiral · 09-13-2003, 06:48 PM

I don't see the proof in the opinions of dead philosopher's and myths, so where is the solid proof?

Booboo · 09-13-2003, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Marius1
Not nessisarily. What if its because they want to become famous as a martyr?

Or believe they will have a better afterlife due to their self sacrifice?

What if they dont?

3leggedfrog · 09-13-2003, 06:51 PM

oh and hobbes in social contract. we are brutish and violent and the only reason we are together at all is because we need what others have. we make contracts with others to our mutual benifit. i dont want to die so i wont attempt to kill you if dont attempt to kill me.

Mr. Spacemonkey · 09-13-2003, 06:54 PM

Hah! That's your proof? I can't wait to see the rest because that showed no good, solid proof.

DownwardSpiral · 09-13-2003, 06:59 PM

Spacemonkey, he is proving one thing. And that is 'Don't take the opinions of dead philosopher's seriously.' I mean cmon, don't you think that the statements you've posted sound the least bit ridiculous? All philosophy is is opinions. And if that is your proof than you have proven nothing, Frog.

3leggedfrog · 09-13-2003, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DownwardSpiral
I don't see the proof in the opinions of dead philosopher's and myths, so where is the solid proof?

ahh a deciple of decarts. lol

what type of proof are you looking for? here are great respected philosophers and psychologists who wrote their great works from thousands of years ago to the 1980's arguing in their own way that selfish desire is behind all actions that humans do.

i have taken examples from people here in tthis post and showed that selfish desire is behind all the "good" acts from sacrificing one self for others to charity.

can you be more specific in what you want?

DownwardSpiral · 09-13-2003, 07:07 PM

I want you to prove it, as you said you could, did you not? I don't wanna hear the opinions of professional opinion givers I want you to prove to me in your own words that good is impossible. And I'm starting to think that it's impossible for you to prove that good cannot be done. You have to have some proof that it's impossible, otherwise you woulden't have started the thread in the first place, right?

3leggedfrog · 09-13-2003, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Booboo
I still dont see why something is not a good deed if done for personal reasons.. again I think its all in your beliefs and opinions.

you may be right. its all about if your think that there are times when selfishness is not bad. my argument hinges on this simple belief. if you want to kill my argument all you have to say there are times when selfishness is good. me i say no because of the defintion of the word selfisheness. Concerned chiefly or only with oneself by dictionary.com. i say this cannot possibly good but who knows i may be wrong.

Da Munk · 09-13-2003, 07:24 PM

This is pointless. You cannot, absolutely cannot, assume to know a person's reasoning for taking an action. Just because an act could have been selfish does not mean that it was. Sure you can examine a given situation and come up with many selfish reasons that a person took those actions, but that does not mean that those were in fact the motivations for their actions.

You say that if you take away the reward for the action then the action would not be perfomed, but you also say that everything is predetermined and therefore there is no free will. If this is true then wouldn't the action be performed whether or not the reward was still present?

Your logic is very flawed. Until you can prove without a shadow of a doubt that all actions are indeed motivated by selfish desires you have proven nothing.

DownwardSpiral · 09-13-2003, 07:30 PM

Coulden't have said it better myself, Da Munk.

3leggedfrog · 09-13-2003, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DownwardSpiral
I want you to prove it, as you said you could, did you not? I don't wanna hear the opinions of professional opinion givers I want you to prove to me in your own words that good is impossible. And I'm starting to think that it's impossible for you to prove that good cannot be done. You have to have some proof that it's impossible, otherwise you woulden't have started the thread in the first place, right?

* chuckles*
me: look outside the sky is bule.
you: no it isnt where is your proof.
me: look out side
you: so you say. where is your proof that is blue? i see no proof
me: here is a chart that says the color up there is blue
you: i want proof. this chart is not proof. where is your references.
me: this leader in his feild of physics say it is so
you: all you have proven is that we shouldnt trust those people. where is your proof.
me: what kind of proof do you want
you: i want hard, concrete proof that it is blue.
me: so have you see whos on second. no whos on first. (albert and constello)

Mr. Spacemonkey · 09-13-2003, 07:39 PM

Haha! That was funny.

Getting pretty desperate eh? Comparing that to this thread, they aren't even close in comparison. You'll never find something even close to proof, just except it and give up.

Booboo · 09-13-2003, 07:39 PM

I think heres your problem..

self·ish ( P ) Pronunciation Key (slfsh)
adj.
Concerned Chiefly or only with oneself: “Selfish men were... trying to make capital for themselves out of the sacred cause of human rights” (Maria Weston Chapman).

selfishness

\Self"ish*ness\, n. The quality or state of being selfish; Exclusive regard to one's own interest or happiness; that Supreme self-love or self-preference which leads a person to direct his purposes to the advancement of his own interest, power, or happiness, without regarding those of others.

When you do something for someone else, or do "good", even if it makes you feel better.. generally you will not do it Exclusively for your own interests or happiness. There is still concern regarding the person(s) you are helping.

There may be a small amount of selfishness in the deed, but the fact remains you are helping someone else and in so doing improving their quality of life... this part of the act is Not selfish.

Therefore... if the motivation for doing the act is more heavily weighed with helping someone, then doing it for those feelings of greatness or whatever, then by the definition from dictionary.com the act is not selfish.

I think that makes sense... =)

Edited for various gramatical errors...

3leggedfrog · 09-13-2003, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Booboo

Therefore... if the motivation for doing the act is more heavily weighed with helping someone, than doing it for those feelings of greatness or whatever, than by the definition from dictionary.com the act is not selfish.

finally someone with a good logical argument against my argument.

ok does that happen? does our concers for others outway our selfihs desires? this leaves the realm of philosophy and enters psychology.

self image one of our most important concepts in mental health. self image is how we see our selves and how we believe others see us. i am a good person a good person does this.... if we do the act there is no problem we feel no anxiety, guilt etc. if we do not then we feel a almost physical pain that is the emotional upheaval caused the painful realization we are not who we thought we are. so we make up reasons to make our actions fit our versions of our self image. i didnt save the boy because he was not really a good boy or i couldnt have saved him... ect. our belief in who we are is so powerful that it can makes us do amazing or really stupid things.

here is another point. when someone says that Mr. Everyone just died in a car accident what is the usally first responces. was he drinking, was he wearing a seatbelt. we dont really care that he die (unless he was very close to us say a beloved family member) we just want someone to comfort us saying that cant happen to us. we do this to protect our self image that driving a car is safe for us. our self image is ruthless in protecting oursleves. we will even commit suicide to protect our self image. worse our self image is at a unconscious level. so we dont even relalize we are doing it.

when we do these acts we call good we, are in the end, just trying to protecting our self image.

Booboo · 09-13-2003, 09:22 PM

I think it certainly can. I think it might depend on the situations, but it also depends on whats are more important to you. Your desires, or someone elses well being. And sure, you could say that because someone elses well being is important to you, that when you defend it, you are being selfish because it is important to you.

However I dont think that is always the case... or even mostly the case for that matter. I think it really depends on your own values and morals.

Quote:

self image one of our most important concepts in mental health. self image is how we see our selves and how we believe others see us. i am a good person a good person does this.... if we do the act there is no problem we feel no anxiety, guilt etc. if we do not then we feel a almost physical pain that is the emotional upheaval caused the painful realization we are not who we thought we are. so we make up reasons to make our actions fit our versions of our self image. i didnt save the boy because he was not really a good boy or i couldnt have saved him... ect. our belief in who we are is so powerful that it can makes us do amazing or really stupid things.

I think for this to be true there has to be time for thought. There are situations where you rely on instincts alone. Do you think that the passengers who faught back when their plane was highjacked so that it would not result in an even larger catastrophe were thinking, "Sweet if we take down this plane before they can crash it into something we will be hero's!". I dont think so. I think there are times where people snap, and when it happens reasonable thought is gone. They are fighting for something they believe in and in their hearts they know what is right. When they brought down the plane they were protecting people they had no emotional connection with.

I appologize if that example offended anyone... it was all I could think of at the time.

Quote:

here is another point. when someone says that Mr. Everyone just died in a car accident what is the usally first responces. was he drinking, was he wearing a seatbelt. we dont really care that he die (unless he was very close to us say a beloved family member) we just want someone to comfort us saying that cant happen to us. we do this to protect our self image that driving a car is safe for us. our self image is ruthless in protecting oursleves. we will even commit suicide to protect our self image. worse our self image is at a unconscious level. so we dont even relalize we are doing it.

Personally when I hear of an accident... I usually think, "Its so sad stuff like this happens all the time", and I think of how fortunate that I am. I myself was in an accident, a really bad one, and I was lucky as hell I am still here today. I think having such an experience has led me to accept that shit happens... and there is not much we can do about it when it does. Perhaps this has given me a different outlook on things.. but I dont remember thinking differently before hand. I counted my losses and moved on, knowing they could have been worse. I know the next time I drive a car, it could be the last thing I do. Well, I do it anyway. I do not try to pull illusions in front of my face.

Tirian · 09-13-2003, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 3leggedfrog

i have taken examples from people here in tthis post and showed that selfish desire is behind all the "good" acts from sacrificing one self for others to charity.

You have taken examples from people here in this post and showed that selfish desire MAY BE behind all the "good" acts from sacrificing.....

My point is exactly that; since you have not shown that these acts ARE selfish or badly motivated, than you have proven absolutly nothing. Only an all knowing being (ie God) could actually prove this one way or the other by actually KNOWING what motivated each persons good deeds. You have only guessed what motivates each person.

Human philosphers and pshyco-babblers are also guessing.

09-12-2003, 11:30 AM	#86 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	correct that's the whole reason why I stated it as such. because it invalidates my argument. it just has to be as is face value. you don't know someone's intentions, you can guess, but you cannot know. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

09-12-2003, 02:15 PM	#90 (permalink)
Mr. Spacemonkey Wake up Location: Nowhere special	And yet still no proof . . . shakes head edit: but i still am enjoying the debate __________________ "I hope that when the world comes to an end, I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to." -- Donnie Darko Last edited by Mr. Spacemonkey; 09-12-2003 at 02:18 PM..

09-12-2003, 02:20 PM	#91 (permalink)
3leggedfrog Psycho Location: Hiding from the penguins they come to take my sanity away!	look at my logic argument. or wait until i will find some good sources. i have never researched this topic before. __________________ "enjoy life to the brim but do not spill it" quoted off my tatoo "Iam myself every day."

09-12-2003, 04:06 PM	#95 (permalink)
DownwardSpiral The Funeral of Hearts Location: Trapped inside my mind. . .	Well said Marius, couldent have said it better myself. __________________ "So Keep on Pretending. Our Heavens Worth the Waiting. Keep on Pretending. It's Alright." -- H.I.M., "Pretending"

09-12-2003, 04:14 PM	#97 (permalink)
DownwardSpiral The Funeral of Hearts Location: Trapped inside my mind. . .	You can't logically prove that good is impossible to do, Frog, the only option you have is to do some sort of research on it. Might be a hard topic to research though. __________________ "So Keep on Pretending. Our Heavens Worth the Waiting. Keep on Pretending. It's Alright." -- H.I.M., "Pretending"

09-12-2003, 07:41 AM	#82 (permalink)
MacGnG Know Where!	self-sacrific is selfless.

09-12-2003, 12:46 PM	#87 (permalink)
Xiangsu Addict Location: Illinois	There is nothing wrong with doing something for selfish reasons. So if you save someone it doesn't take away the fact that it was a good deed.

09-13-2003, 02:38 PM	#98 (permalink)
3leggedfrog Psycho Location: Hiding from the penguins they come to take my sanity away!	yes you can, philosophers have been proving their philosophies with logic for thousands of years. __________________ "enjoy life to the brim but do not spill it" quoted off my tatoo "Iam myself every day."

09-13-2003, 04:26 PM	#99 (permalink)
Mr. Spacemonkey Wake up Location: Nowhere special	Okay then, if you say you can prove it with logic . . . THEN DO IT. You keep on saying that you can prove it but you sure aren't showing any. __________________ "I hope that when the world comes to an end, I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to." -- Donnie Darko

09-13-2003, 06:36 PM	#100 (permalink)
Booboo Insane	The Reason your argument that it is impossible to do good is flawed to me.. is because your telling me how I feel when doing something "good". You say I do it for my own personal motives.. how do you know this? I can not on a whim do something good because I just happen to feel like doing it? If there is a feeling of goodness or it does something for you to do this "good" deed.. it does not matter. I know I dont do good deeds to get off. I just do them because its something I do. Even if it is done for selfish reasons.. Just because something is selfish does not mean its a bad thing, or a wrong thing. A car is about to hit me.. I move out of the way. By your reasoning this is selfish and bad. Others may see this as a good deed simply because they rely on me in some way. I see no reason why something can not be selfish and good at the same time. It is all a matter of opinion... and yours does not hold much weight to me. Edit: It also depends on what you decide "good" is and what defines doing "good" Thanks I hope this makes sense.. I'm very tired right now. and even if you dont agree with it. Its how I see things. __________________ "Your life is yours to live, go out and live it" - Richard Rahl Last edited by Booboo; 09-13-2003 at 06:46 PM..

09-13-2003, 06:41 PM	#101 (permalink)
DownwardSpiral The Funeral of Hearts Location: Trapped inside my mind. . .	This thread hasn't proven that good is impossible yet, waiting. . . waiting. . . __________________ "So Keep on Pretending. Our Heavens Worth the Waiting. Keep on Pretending. It's Alright." -- H.I.M., "Pretending"

09-13-2003, 06:45 PM	#103 (permalink)
3leggedfrog Psycho Location: Hiding from the penguins they come to take my sanity away!	fine i had time to sit and think over your proof over a glass of wine tonight. here goes Fredrich Nietzche's will to power. he stated that there are only two types of people slaves and masters. masters rule over the slaves. to counter act this the slaves invented morals and religion to try to limit the masters power. aristotle's pyrmid of virtue. for ones psyche to be in good health one must balance the soul between will and appetite (desire). all your actions are based off of either fullfilling or denying your appetite. all things in moderation. all our actions are based on desire. hume in a very simplistic metaphore we (humans) are all just wind up toys that god created in the begining of time. there is no good or evil because we are just following a set pattern. free will is just a illusion. can't do good if we are just wind up toys. (the matric reloaded philosophy behind the Prophecies) Jean-Paul Sartre we are born on this earth without being given a chooice. we learn the most terrible knowledge that we will die. we and all those around us are finite. there is no good nor evil just chooices. while we are alive there are no rule books that we can judge ourselves "good" nor "evil". we have our institions to guild us but they cannot tells what is truly right for us. ie thou shall not kill. what if there is someone trying to kill us. the rules to live by that the christian god wrote down in what we call the commandments. i would use other religions but it would take too long to explain those religions. sorry. Sigmund Freud id, ego, super ego. id = selfish desires. ego= that which controls the id. super ego ethics we learn from our culture. like i said this argument has been aroud for a very long time. more later. __________________ "enjoy life to the brim but do not spill it" quoted off my tatoo "Iam myself every day." Last edited by 3leggedfrog; 09-13-2003 at 06:47 PM..

09-13-2003, 06:47 PM	#104 (permalink)
Booboo Insane	I still dont see why something is not a good deed if done for personal reasons.. again I think its all in your beliefs and opinions. __________________ "Your life is yours to live, go out and live it" - Richard Rahl

09-13-2003, 06:48 PM	#105 (permalink)
DownwardSpiral The Funeral of Hearts Location: Trapped inside my mind. . .	I don't see the proof in the opinions of dead philosopher's and myths, so where is the solid proof? __________________ "So Keep on Pretending. Our Heavens Worth the Waiting. Keep on Pretending. It's Alright." -- H.I.M., "Pretending"

09-13-2003, 06:51 PM	#107 (permalink)
3leggedfrog Psycho Location: Hiding from the penguins they come to take my sanity away!	oh and hobbes in social contract. we are brutish and violent and the only reason we are together at all is because we need what others have. we make contracts with others to our mutual benifit. i dont want to die so i wont attempt to kill you if dont attempt to kill me. __________________ "enjoy life to the brim but do not spill it" quoted off my tatoo "Iam myself every day."

09-13-2003, 06:54 PM	#108 (permalink)
Mr. Spacemonkey Wake up Location: Nowhere special	Hah! That's your proof? I can't wait to see the rest because that showed no good, solid proof. __________________ "I hope that when the world comes to an end, I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to." -- Donnie Darko

09-13-2003, 06:59 PM	#109 (permalink)
DownwardSpiral The Funeral of Hearts Location: Trapped inside my mind. . .	Spacemonkey, he is proving one thing. And that is 'Don't take the opinions of dead philosopher's seriously.' I mean cmon, don't you think that the statements you've posted sound the least bit ridiculous? All philosophy is is opinions. And if that is your proof than you have proven nothing, Frog. __________________ "So Keep on Pretending. Our Heavens Worth the Waiting. Keep on Pretending. It's Alright." -- H.I.M., "Pretending"

09-13-2003, 07:07 PM	#111 (permalink)
DownwardSpiral The Funeral of Hearts Location: Trapped inside my mind. . .	I want you to prove it, as you said you could, did you not? I don't wanna hear the opinions of professional opinion givers I want you to prove to me in your own words that good is impossible. And I'm starting to think that it's impossible for you to prove that good cannot be done. You have to have some proof that it's impossible, otherwise you woulden't have started the thread in the first place, right? __________________ "So Keep on Pretending. Our Heavens Worth the Waiting. Keep on Pretending. It's Alright." -- H.I.M., "Pretending"

09-13-2003, 07:24 PM	#113 (permalink)
Da Munk Crazy	This is pointless. You cannot, absolutely cannot, assume to know a person's reasoning for taking an action. Just because an act could have been selfish does not mean that it was. Sure you can examine a given situation and come up with many selfish reasons that a person took those actions, but that does not mean that those were in fact the motivations for their actions. You say that if you take away the reward for the action then the action would not be perfomed, but you also say that everything is predetermined and therefore there is no free will. If this is true then wouldn't the action be performed whether or not the reward was still present? Your logic is very flawed. Until you can prove without a shadow of a doubt that all actions are indeed motivated by selfish desires you have proven nothing.

09-13-2003, 07:30 PM	#114 (permalink)
DownwardSpiral The Funeral of Hearts Location: Trapped inside my mind. . .	Coulden't have said it better myself, Da Munk. __________________ "So Keep on Pretending. Our Heavens Worth the Waiting. Keep on Pretending. It's Alright." -- H.I.M., "Pretending"

09-13-2003, 07:39 PM	#116 (permalink)
Mr. Spacemonkey Wake up Location: Nowhere special	Haha! That was funny. Getting pretty desperate eh? Comparing that to this thread, they aren't even close in comparison. You'll never find something even close to proof, just except it and give up. __________________ "I hope that when the world comes to an end, I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to." -- Donnie Darko

09-13-2003, 07:39 PM	#117 (permalink)
Booboo Insane	I think heres your problem.. self·ish ( P ) Pronunciation Key (slfsh) adj. Concerned Chiefly or only with oneself: “Selfish men were... trying to make capital for themselves out of the sacred cause of human rights” (Maria Weston Chapman). selfishness \Self"ishness\, n. The quality or state of being selfish; Exclusive* regard to one's own interest or happiness; that Supreme self-love or self-preference which leads a person to direct his purposes to the advancement of his own interest, power, or happiness, without regarding those of others. When you do something for someone else, or do "good", even if it makes you feel better.. generally you will not do it Exclusively for your own interests or happiness. There is still concern regarding the person(s) you are helping. There may be a small amount of selfishness in the deed, but the fact remains you are helping someone else and in so doing improving their quality of life... this part of the act is Not selfish. Therefore... if the motivation for doing the act is more heavily weighed with helping someone, then doing it for those feelings of greatness or whatever, then by the definition from dictionary.com the act is not selfish. I think that makes sense... =) Edited for various gramatical errors... __________________ "Your life is yours to live, go out and live it" - Richard Rahl Last edited by Booboo; 09-13-2003 at 07:46 PM..