i can prove that it is impossible to do good - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

3leggedfrog · 09-10-2003, 10:44 AM

i am taking all comers i can prove that it is impossible to do good.

Capt.JamesHook · 09-10-2003, 10:47 AM

Impossible to do good. Is English your primary language?

JStrider · 09-10-2003, 11:05 AM

if i get a 100% on a test i did good

CrazySaturn · 09-10-2003, 11:10 AM

By whos standards are you talking about?

micah67 · 09-10-2003, 11:12 AM

I think you need to define "good" first to make sure we're talking the same thing.

johnnymysto · 09-10-2003, 12:04 PM

OK, I'm waiting....prove it!

Lebell · 09-10-2003, 12:15 PM

*patiently sits back and waits*

jujueye · 09-10-2003, 12:15 PM

geez....the suspense is killing me....DO SOMETHING!!!!!!

YourNeverThere · 09-10-2003, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by micah67
I think you need to define "good" first to make sure we're talking the same thing.

ya really, I mean I just LOVE it when the thread title is the excate same as the thread contents... What do you think was going to happen? no one was going to ask you to define what you are talking about? A well, I'll take the bait, overlooking bad grammer why, pray tell, is it impossable to 'do good'?

tj2001cobra · 09-10-2003, 01:58 PM

Let me correct that for you

Quote:

Originally posted by JStrider
if i get a 100% on a test i did well

3leggedfrog · 09-10-2003, 02:06 PM

no good as in a good deed. all good deed are inherently selfish so to do good is impossible.

sorry 48 hrs no sleep makes one really weird.

Nafter · 09-10-2003, 02:26 PM

I think i can see where you're going to come from but please explain to me something like saving someones life is not a good deed? Say you run out to push someone out of traffic, risking your own life, how is this inherently selfish?
Also is selfishness inherently bad, so much so that thinking of yourself as well as others when doing a deed means that its not a good deed but a bad one?
bit tired at the moment but i think you get the gist.

Cynthetiq · 09-10-2003, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 3leggedfrog
no good as in a good deed. all good deed are inherently selfish so to do good is impossible.

sorry 48 hrs no sleep makes one really weird.

all good deeds are inherently selfish.

from who's point of view? the do gooder? some people just do things because it's to be done, be it evil or good.

start with flawed logic, you'll get a flawed result.

Cubby · 09-10-2003, 02:34 PM

Who says being selfish is a bad thing to be? If doing "good" is inherently selfish then perhaps being selfish is a good thing to be.

And how is putting food in a food hamper a selfish act? It make me feel good to do so? So what..it is still a good deed.

3leggedfrog · 09-10-2003, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cubby
And how is putting food in a food hamper a selfish act? It make me feel good to do so? So what..it is still a good deed.

well putting food in a food hamper just so you can feel good is selfish. hence not a good deed. because selfishness is bad. right?
would you still put food in the hamper if you knew only 1\3 of it was going to the needy and the rest is going to someones pocket?

Quote:

Originally posted by Nafter
Say you run out to push someone out of traffic, risking your own life, how is this inherently selfish?
Also is selfishness inherently bad, so much so that thinking of yourself as well as others when doing a deed means that its not a good deed but a bad one?
bit tired at the moment but i think you get the gist.

why are you running out into traffic? adreline junky? no? death wish ( i'll show her/him how much i love them by doing this [lovers and parent/child])? selfish? wanting to be a hero and be reveared by the culture. a selfish thing. we can go on. all the acts of good deed are selfish in nature.

jfranco13 · 09-10-2003, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 3leggedfrog
why are you running out into traffic? adreline junky? no? death wish ( i'll show her/him how much i love them by doing this [lovers and parent/child])? selfish? wanting to be a hero and be reveared by the culture. a selfish thing. we can go on. all the acts of good deed are selfish in nature.

But if you see someone about to get hit by a car, and you save them without conscious thought, then where's the premeditated benefit?

Unless you're saying that the person in question has SUB-conscious motivations that come through that quickly. That seems like a different argument.

Nefir · 09-10-2003, 03:27 PM

See, the thing about your argument is - no matter what we say, its always going to have a selfish aspect to it.

So how about I'll attack you from another perspective - why is selfish necessarily "ungood"?

Seriously, think about it - we are all individuals, but we also live as a collective. By enriching our own life, without hurting another (not necessarily immediate or conscious hurt), we enrich the collective as well.

By helping someone else, I am satisfying my desire to do good, thus enriching not only my own life, but also someone else's - twice the good in one deed! What more could you ask for?

docbungle · 09-10-2003, 03:36 PM

Quote:

why are you running out into traffic? adreline junky? no? death wish ( i'll show her/him how much i love them by doing this [lovers and parent/child])? selfish? wanting to be a hero and be reveared by the culture. a selfish thing. we can go on. all the acts of good deed are selfish.

You are a pessimist. That doesn't have anything to do with others committing "good deeds" simply out of the kindness of their hearts.

Which is not greedy at all.

3leggedfrog · 09-10-2003, 03:39 PM

why is subconscious a different argument? it is our motivation behind our actions. its defends our self image. i am a good person. a good person would do this so i must do this. our self iamge is derived from our attempts to please our culture. so our subconscious thoughts motivate us to do selfish deeds everyone else calls "good"

yes subconscious thoughts are that fast.

3leggedfrog · 09-10-2003, 03:49 PM

Nefir why is selfishness bad? well why would we do a good deed if it does do no good for us. take away what ever we are getting out of the good deed and we have no motivation to do that deed.
thats why institions that promote values are so improtant.

docbungle, no i am a realist actualy but i am just in a psssimistic mood but that does not invalidate my argument. selfishness is bad...no? so when something is motivated by selfishness that is bad...no? so what has me being a pessimistic got to do with anything?

sexymama · 09-10-2003, 03:54 PM

Even the bible says "Love your neighbor as yourself" not love your neighbor instead of yourself. Good deeds are the act of loving others as you want to be loved -- so what!?

Fallen · 09-10-2003, 03:56 PM

"Good" has a subjective definition. It can not be pinned down so easily. You first have to tell us your definition of "good" in order to present a strong argument.

Marius1 · 09-10-2003, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 3leggedfrog
no good as in a good deed. all good deed are inherently selfish so to do good is impossible.

sorry 48 hrs no sleep makes one really weird.

This old philosophical chestnut!

It was even played out on an episode of Freinds.

David Gemmel writes a great dismissal of this concept in one of his fantasy books. Better than any philosophical argument I'll dig it out and post it tomorrow.

Such theories are really just a load of old bollocks that pretentious people invent to waste time and make themselves feel important and clever by showing off. Essentially though its a worthless use of philosophy.

Halx · 09-10-2003, 04:03 PM

SO all you are saying is that there is no such thing as pure altruism.

*shrug*

Glory's Sun · 09-10-2003, 04:05 PM

is there really such a thing as good or bad?? everyone has different views on what is good or what is bad.. so in the end is there really good or bad? Everyone is raised by different values and organized religion is to blame for many things being bad but that's a totally different subject.

Mr. Spacemonkey · 09-10-2003, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 3leggedfrog
no good as in a good deed. all good deed are inherently selfish so to do good is impossible.

sorry 48 hrs no sleep makes one really weird.

I think what your trying to say is that there is no such thing as an unselfish good deed. You can still do good deeds but it will still also be selfish.

When i give a homeless person a meal, that homeless person is still going to benefit from the meal regardless of why i did it. So that would still make it a good deed. It doesn't matter if the good deed was done for selfish reasons or not, that other person still benefited from it.

3leggedfrog · 09-10-2003, 04:13 PM

fallen, post your definiton of good it really does not matter in the end.

Marius1, yes the argument has been around a very long time just ask sexymama. its in the bible. but just because you dont like the argument does not mean it is not a vaild argument.

i am not trying to be clever. i am just proving a point to my self that to do a good deed is impossible by defending the point of view that i really dont want to accept. doing a good deed is impossible.

3leggedfrog · 09-10-2003, 04:16 PM

Mr. Spacemonkey yes it does matter because like i posted earlier if you take away the good you are going to get from the experence then the question is raised will you still do that good deed?

yea halx all act of altruism are motivated by selfish desires.

Mr. Spacemonkey · 09-10-2003, 04:33 PM

I don't think most people do good deeds because of how they are going to feel afterwards. I think because they do good deeds, that good feeling is a side effect of what they did.

I can't help it if i feel good afterwards for doing something to enrich someone elses life. Is it such a bad thing to feel good for doing something good? The answer is no.

crow_daw · 09-10-2003, 05:16 PM

3leggedfrog, no offense, but I find your logic as wanting as your grammatical ability.

3leggedfrog · 09-10-2003, 05:22 PM

you dont think people anticipate the rewards they will get with an intentional good deed? hmmmm. here i have to disagree with you. i believe that people do the "good" deed because of the perceived reward. for an example i want to do this because my culture approves of these actions and will praise me. i will save that man.

now lets change this up a little i will not save that man because he is a killer and has killed many people and will do so again. this is a cultural verson of good. some cultures will dissagree with that last statement some would agree. people will either save or let the man die because of cultural approval and the perceived reward.

3leggedfrog · 09-10-2003, 05:30 PM

crow_daw, yes my grammer is really bad, that is not in question. what is in question, with you, is the logic of my argument. so whats the fault in my logic? you need to be more specific.

viejo gringo · 09-10-2003, 05:39 PM

when you get to be 60, come and discuss it----you need a few years of experience to make such a broad statement...

Cynthetiq · 09-10-2003, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 3leggedfrog
crow_daw, yes my grammer is really bad, that is not in question. what is in question, with you, is the logic of my argument. so whats the fault in my logic? you need to be more specific.

the premise is flawed, there is only your answer.

I can use the same logic to say that all good deeds are rooted in evil and provide along those same points.

which is why i said initially, flawed logic.

it's the same kind of flawed logic as:

Love is blind,
God is love,
Stevie Wonder is blind, therefore Stevie Wonder is god.

bundy · 09-10-2003, 07:33 PM

**singing...

Without Evil There Can Be No Good,
So It Must Be Good To Be Evil Sometimes.

johnnymysto · 09-11-2003, 04:48 AM

A good deed is not always a selfish deed. In the example where I push a man out of traffic so he doesn't get hit, my selfish desires would tell me NOT to go into traffic. Rather, if I were completely selfish, I would keep myself out of trouble and let the poor man fend for himself. The same would apply if I jump in a lake to save a man from drowning. My selfish impulses tell me not to put myself in harm's way and to stay out of the water. But, the good thing to do is to help the drowning man. One more - a coworker is wrongly accused of forgetting to do something that was my responsibility. The selfish thing to do would be to keep quiet and thank my lucky stars that he was blamed and not me. But the good and decent thing to do would be to admit that it was my fault, not his. Again, this is a good deed that does not serve my interests in the least - it is merely good to do.

baaa · 09-11-2003, 04:52 AM

*** cynthetiq edited my post because I said something immature ***

nothingx · 09-11-2003, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Capt.JamesHook
Impossible to do good. Is English your primary language?

The use of "good" in this sense is not adverbial, rather a it is used as a noun.

good n.: something that is good

People often forget that the word good is also a noun, especailly when used in a sentence where it could be used in the adverbial sense which has been under attack since the 19th century.

More to the point of the topic though, I believe that he is saying no good can be done because it is ill defined. Its morally subjective. What's good for you is bad for me, and just okay to someone else. There no universal boundries on the continuum... ergo, no one can ever do good.

Cynthetiq · 09-11-2003, 11:21 AM

moelester, that's exactly why I said the argument premise was inherently flawed.

jujueye · 09-11-2003, 11:39 AM

So far, this has been well worth the wait. I'm glad I tuned in.

09-10-2003, 10:44 AM	#1 (permalink)
3leggedfrog Psycho Location: Hiding from the penguins they come to take my sanity away!	i can prove that it is impossible to do good i am taking all comers i can prove that it is impossible to do good. __________________ "enjoy life to the brim but do not spill it" quoted off my tatoo "Iam myself every day."

09-10-2003, 11:05 AM	#3 (permalink)
JStrider Poo-tee-weet? Location: The Woodlands, TX	if i get a 100% on a test i did good __________________ -=JStrider=- ~Clatto Verata Nicto

09-10-2003, 11:10 AM	#4 (permalink)
CrazySaturn Insane Location: Champaign, IL	By whos standards are you talking about? __________________ What's the difference between you and a mallard with a cold? One's a sick duck...I can't remember how it ends, but your mother is a whore!

09-10-2003, 11:12 AM	#5 (permalink)
micah67 Thor Location: 33:08:12N 117:10:23W	I think you need to define "good" first to make sure we're talking the same thing. __________________ ~micah

09-10-2003, 12:04 PM	#6 (permalink)
johnnymysto Overreactor Location: South Ca'lina	OK, I'm waiting....prove it! __________________ "I'm disinclined to acquiesce to your request." - Capt. Barbossa

09-10-2003, 10:47 AM	#2 (permalink)
Capt.JamesHook Crazy	Impossible to do good. Is English your primary language?

09-10-2003, 12:15 PM	#7 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	patiently sits back and waits __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

09-10-2003, 12:15 PM	#8 (permalink)
jujueye alpaca lunch for the trip Location: in my computer	geez....the suspense is killing me....DO SOMETHING!!!!!!

09-10-2003, 02:06 PM	#11 (permalink)
3leggedfrog Psycho Location: Hiding from the penguins they come to take my sanity away!	no good as in a good deed. all good deed are inherently selfish so to do good is impossible. sorry 48 hrs no sleep makes one really weird. __________________ "enjoy life to the brim but do not spill it" quoted off my tatoo "Iam myself every day."

09-10-2003, 02:26 PM	#12 (permalink)
Nafter Insane Location: The Eng	I think i can see where you're going to come from but please explain to me something like saving someones life is not a good deed? Say you run out to push someone out of traffic, risking your own life, how is this inherently selfish? Also is selfishness inherently bad, so much so that thinking of yourself as well as others when doing a deed means that its not a good deed but a bad one? bit tired at the moment but i think you get the gist. __________________ I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."

09-10-2003, 02:34 PM	#14 (permalink)
Cubby Insane Location: BC, Canada	Who says being selfish is a bad thing to be? If doing "good" is inherently selfish then perhaps being selfish is a good thing to be. And how is putting food in a food hamper a selfish act? It make me feel good to do so? So what..it is still a good deed. __________________ Don't be irreplaceable - if you can't be replaced, you can't be promoted!

09-10-2003, 03:27 PM	#17 (permalink)
Nefir Junkie Location: Louisville, KY	See, the thing about your argument is - no matter what we say, its always going to have a selfish aspect to it. So how about I'll attack you from another perspective - why is selfish necessarily "ungood"? Seriously, think about it - we are all individuals, but we also live as a collective. By enriching our own life, without hurting another (not necessarily immediate or conscious hurt), we enrich the collective as well. By helping someone else, I am satisfying my desire to do good, thus enriching not only my own life, but also someone else's - twice the good in one deed! What more could you ask for? __________________ You do not use a Macintosh, instead you use a Tandy Kompressor break your glowstick, Kompressor eat your candy Kompressor open jaws, Kompressor release ants Kompressor watch you scream, Because Kompressor does not dance

09-10-2003, 03:39 PM	#19 (permalink)
3leggedfrog Psycho Location: Hiding from the penguins they come to take my sanity away!	why is subconscious a different argument? it is our motivation behind our actions. its defends our self image. i am a good person. a good person would do this so i must do this. our self iamge is derived from our attempts to please our culture. so our subconscious thoughts motivate us to do selfish deeds everyone else calls "good" yes subconscious thoughts are that fast. __________________ "enjoy life to the brim but do not spill it" quoted off my tatoo "Iam myself every day."

09-10-2003, 03:49 PM	#20 (permalink)
3leggedfrog Psycho Location: Hiding from the penguins they come to take my sanity away!	Nefir why is selfishness bad? well why would we do a good deed if it does do no good for us. take away what ever we are getting out of the good deed and we have no motivation to do that deed. thats why institions that promote values are so improtant. docbungle, no i am a realist actualy but i am just in a psssimistic mood but that does not invalidate my argument. selfishness is bad...no? so when something is motivated by selfishness that is bad...no? so what has me being a pessimistic got to do with anything? __________________ "enjoy life to the brim but do not spill it" quoted off my tatoo "Iam myself every day." Last edited by 3leggedfrog; 09-10-2003 at 03:53 PM..

09-10-2003, 03:54 PM	#21 (permalink)
sexymama My own person -- his by choice Location: Lebell's arms	Even the bible says "Love your neighbor as yourself" not love your neighbor instead of yourself. Good deeds are the act of loving others as you want to be loved -- so what!? __________________ If you can go deeply into lovemaking, the ego disappears. That is the beauty of lovemaking, that it is another source of a glimpse of god It's not about being perfect; it's about developing some skill at managing imperfection.

09-10-2003, 03:56 PM	#22 (permalink)
Fallen Crazy Location: Adrift In Madness	"Good" has a subjective definition. It can not be pinned down so easily. You first have to tell us your definition of "good" in order to present a strong argument. __________________ Overdosed on Apathy

09-10-2003, 04:03 PM	#24 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	SO all you are saying is that there is no such thing as pure altruism. shrug __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

09-10-2003, 04:05 PM	#25 (permalink)
Glory's Sun Registered User	is there really such a thing as good or bad?? everyone has different views on what is good or what is bad.. so in the end is there really good or bad? Everyone is raised by different values and organized religion is to blame for many things being bad but that's a totally different subject.

09-10-2003, 04:13 PM	#27 (permalink)
3leggedfrog Psycho Location: Hiding from the penguins they come to take my sanity away!	fallen, post your definiton of good it really does not matter in the end. Marius1, yes the argument has been around a very long time just ask sexymama. its in the bible. but just because you dont like the argument does not mean it is not a vaild argument. i am not trying to be clever. i am just proving a point to my self that to do a good deed is impossible by defending the point of view that i really dont want to accept. doing a good deed is impossible. __________________ "enjoy life to the brim but do not spill it" quoted off my tatoo "Iam myself every day."

09-10-2003, 04:16 PM	#28 (permalink)
3leggedfrog Psycho Location: Hiding from the penguins they come to take my sanity away!	Mr. Spacemonkey yes it does matter because like i posted earlier if you take away the good you are going to get from the experence then the question is raised will you still do that good deed? yea halx all act of altruism are motivated by selfish desires. __________________ "enjoy life to the brim but do not spill it" quoted off my tatoo "Iam myself every day." Last edited by 3leggedfrog; 09-10-2003 at 04:18 PM..

09-10-2003, 04:33 PM	#29 (permalink)
Mr. Spacemonkey Wake up Location: Nowhere special	I don't think most people do good deeds because of how they are going to feel afterwards. I think because they do good deeds, that good feeling is a side effect of what they did. I can't help it if i feel good afterwards for doing something to enrich someone elses life. Is it such a bad thing to feel good for doing something good? The answer is no. __________________ "I hope that when the world comes to an end, I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to." -- Donnie Darko

09-10-2003, 05:16 PM	#30 (permalink)
crow_daw Idolator Location: Vol Country	3leggedfrog, no offense, but I find your logic as wanting as your grammatical ability. __________________ "We each have a star, all we have to do is find it. Once you do, everyone who sees it will be blinded." - Earl Simmons

09-10-2003, 05:22 PM	#31 (permalink)
3leggedfrog Psycho Location: Hiding from the penguins they come to take my sanity away!	you dont think people anticipate the rewards they will get with an intentional good deed? hmmmm. here i have to disagree with you. i believe that people do the "good" deed because of the perceived reward. for an example i want to do this because my culture approves of these actions and will praise me. i will save that man. now lets change this up a little i will not save that man because he is a killer and has killed many people and will do so again. this is a cultural verson of good. some cultures will dissagree with that last statement some would agree. people will either save or let the man die because of cultural approval and the perceived reward. __________________ "enjoy life to the brim but do not spill it" quoted off my tatoo "Iam myself every day."

09-10-2003, 05:30 PM	#32 (permalink)
3leggedfrog Psycho Location: Hiding from the penguins they come to take my sanity away!	crow_daw, yes my grammer is really bad, that is not in question. what is in question, with you, is the logic of my argument. so whats the fault in my logic? you need to be more specific. __________________ "enjoy life to the brim but do not spill it" quoted off my tatoo "Iam myself every day."

09-10-2003, 05:39 PM	#33 (permalink)
viejo gringo Registered User Location: Deep South Texas	when you get to be 60, come and discuss it----you need a few years of experience to make such a broad statement...

09-10-2003, 07:33 PM	#35 (permalink)
bundy . Location: Tokyo	singing... Without Evil There Can Be No Good, So It Must Be Good To Be Evil Sometimes. __________________ Ohayo!!!**

09-11-2003, 04:48 AM	#36 (permalink)
johnnymysto Overreactor Location: South Ca'lina	A good deed is not always a selfish deed. In the example where I push a man out of traffic so he doesn't get hit, my selfish desires would tell me NOT to go into traffic. Rather, if I were completely selfish, I would keep myself out of trouble and let the poor man fend for himself. The same would apply if I jump in a lake to save a man from drowning. My selfish impulses tell me not to put myself in harm's way and to stay out of the water. But, the good thing to do is to help the drowning man. One more - a coworker is wrongly accused of forgetting to do something that was my responsibility. The selfish thing to do would be to keep quiet and thank my lucky stars that he was blamed and not me. But the good and decent thing to do would be to admit that it was my fault, not his. Again, this is a good deed that does not serve my interests in the least - it is merely good to do. __________________ "I'm disinclined to acquiesce to your request." - Capt. Barbossa

09-11-2003, 04:52 AM	#37 (permalink)
baaa Banned Location: ville	* cynthetiq edited my post because I said something immature * Last edited by Cynthetiq; 09-11-2003 at 06:20 AM..

09-11-2003, 11:21 AM	#39 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	moelester, that's exactly why I said the argument premise was inherently flawed. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

09-11-2003, 11:39 AM	#40 (permalink)
jujueye alpaca lunch for the trip Location: in my computer	So far, this has been well worth the wait. I'm glad I tuned in.