09-11-2003, 11:47 AM | #41 (permalink) |
Psycho
Location: Memphis
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Flawed premise and methodology. You're starting with the hypothesis that all good deeds are selfishly motivated and then you find an argument to make the data conform to your hypothesis. Just because a selfish motivation can be found for any given situation doesn't mean that the situation was selfish.
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When life hands you a lemon, say "Oh yeah, I like lemons. What else you got?" Henry Rollins |
09-11-2003, 11:52 AM | #42 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Florida
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Quote:
You're freakin' nuts. I do nice things for people who are close to me all the time. Why? Because it makes me feel good to help them and make them happy. What's wrong with that? Not a damn thing. Are the things I do not good *because I like doing them*?? Fuck no!! A better question would be: is it possible to be an altruist? Altriusm, by definition, is doing or giving something selflessly. But do people really do that, or do they do these things because it makes them feel good? Which is a selfish act--and there's nothing wrong with that WHATSOEVER. |
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09-11-2003, 12:43 PM | #43 (permalink) |
Addict
Location: Canada
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In my view it's all about the motivation of the person doing the good deed. There are people who do deeds for self righteous reasons, and I can honestly say I know some people well enough to know that they are doing good deeds for non-selfish reasons.
Since the bible has already been mentioned, and there is a good illustration found within, I am going to add a biblical parable to this post. From the gospel of Luke. "And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury. And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites. And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all: For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had." This little story illustrates my point about motivation. The rich men could have had some of the selfish reasons listed in this thread. Self import, increase of own well being, or better fitting in with the crowd. But the story shows the contrast of a widow, who would be living in exceedingly depressed and dependent condition of a poor man's widow in the countries where our Lord was. She was unlikely to contribute anything to a charitable purpose, but she did. I feel it would be hard to show selfishness on her part. There may be other points to this parable as well, that I have not mentioned. |
09-11-2003, 01:14 PM | #44 (permalink) |
Psycho
Location: Hiding from the penguins they come to take my sanity away!
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Cynthetiq
i like that you use logic to disprove my conclusion but you made a mistake. your logic is flawed due to a fallacy inherent in your argument. Love is blind, God is love, Stevie Wonder is blind, therefore Stevie Wonder is god. your stevie wonder argument is a weak analogy fallacy. love is blind. love may not be blind so your conclusion is false. if you can find a fallacy in my argument please post it. ( please read my past post before replying it explains why all good deeds are selfish.)thanks all selfish acts are non good all good deeds are selfishness (see past posts on motivation of good) all good deeds are not good the only problem with my argument is that if you do not agree with the first premise all selfish acts are not good. this is your problem with my argument Moelester. i do not give a definition of what is good but you may use utilitarian or deontology or what ever. right now i see no problem with my argument fitting in any of these schools of thought. also i agree that continuum statement. good is subjective thats not what i am arguing about. i say use what ever definition you want and my argument still stands up.
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"enjoy life to the brim but do not spill it" quoted off my tatoo "Iam myself every day." Last edited by 3leggedfrog; 09-11-2003 at 03:03 PM.. |
09-11-2003, 01:59 PM | #45 (permalink) |
Psycho
Location: Hiding from the penguins they come to take my sanity away!
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Tirian
hmm ok please go easy on me with this one but a it could have been her goal to show that is she good to the christian god. her reward was his/her approval. also one could argue that she was looking for "browie points" to get into heavan due to the fact that the life she was living was close to the end and her standard of living was very poor. We can speculate that she wanted a better afterlife. johnnymysto love the avatar. to answer your reply what was the motivation to go into traffic and save the man? was the motivation temporarily stronger than self preservation. yes so what was the motivation? sipsake what do you mean that the situation may not be selfish? what happens when you take away the motivation and keep the situation will the person still act the same way? the likey out-come is no. so while the out-come was good the act itself was not. irseg. your point of doing something because we hate it is the only possible way to do good is wrong. while if you follow the logic of the argument that seems a likly statement its not. because doing something we hate mean that we are not doing the act of our own free will. so someone must be forcing us to do this act and the only reason we would do this act is prevent the bad consequences from not doing it. that is selfish. viejo gringo, sr, i have great respect for your age and wisdom, but could you please clarify what you mean by waiting to your age. to me this argument is very cut and dry. what have i missed sir?
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"enjoy life to the brim but do not spill it" quoted off my tatoo "Iam myself every day." Last edited by 3leggedfrog; 09-11-2003 at 02:31 PM.. |
09-11-2003, 02:27 PM | #47 (permalink) |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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exactly the logic itself is flawed, selfishness is in the flawed portion.
It's why I used the fallacy logic to express the same thing in your logic.
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
09-11-2003, 02:38 PM | #49 (permalink) |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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your second statement all good deeds are selfish.
because they are not. ex. A person who dies and a kidney is taken from their dying body is doing good, though no perceived reward, in fact it cannot be known to the individual prior to death. that action in itself is selfless, not selfish.
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
09-11-2003, 02:40 PM | #50 (permalink) | |
Wake up
Location: Nowhere special
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Quote:
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"I hope that when the world comes to an end, I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to." -- Donnie Darko Last edited by Mr. Spacemonkey; 09-11-2003 at 02:48 PM.. |
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09-11-2003, 02:43 PM | #51 (permalink) |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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the logic also doesn't work because you can equally substitute EVIL for good, and defend that equally. so again, flawed logic that wastes brain cycles and time.
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
09-11-2003, 02:47 PM | #52 (permalink) | |
Addict
Location: Canada
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Quote:
As per a real life good deed story... sipsake said it best... "Just because a selfish motivation can be found for any given situation doesn't mean that the situation was selfish." It doesn't mean it was not selfish either, but since we can't really judge anothers motivation, than we cannot prove that all good deeds are badly motivated. Logically I see it like this... Just because we cannot prove an object to be square, does not mean we have proven it to be round. |
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09-11-2003, 02:51 PM | #53 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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Quote:
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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09-11-2003, 02:54 PM | #54 (permalink) |
Addict
Location: Canada
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Further to all of this, I have anecdotal real life evidence.
I know people who have done good deeds, and deep deep within my being I know them to have been GOOD deeds. Selflessly motivated purly for the good of the reciever. This is not something I can prove with pure logic, but I have accepted it as it is. Truly good deeds do exist. |
09-11-2003, 03:10 PM | #55 (permalink) |
Psycho
Location: Hiding from the penguins they come to take my sanity away!
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mr space monkey sorry miss type. its fixed now.
Cynthetiq did he bequeath the organ before he died? if no then he did no deed at all. the good deed lies with the family that okayed the donation and the doctors who preformed it. then we must look at their motivations. becha they are selfish motives. if yes then what was his motivation to do it?
__________________
"enjoy life to the brim but do not spill it" quoted off my tatoo "Iam myself every day." |
09-11-2003, 03:13 PM | #56 (permalink) | |
Psycho
Location: Hiding from the penguins they come to take my sanity away!
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Quote:
i am not trying to prove that a square is round. i am saying all good deeds are inherently selfish. the out come maybe good but not the motivation to do the deed.
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"enjoy life to the brim but do not spill it" quoted off my tatoo "Iam myself every day." Last edited by 3leggedfrog; 09-11-2003 at 03:17 PM.. |
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09-11-2003, 03:15 PM | #57 (permalink) | |
Psycho
Location: Hiding from the penguins they come to take my sanity away!
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Quote:
__________________
"enjoy life to the brim but do not spill it" quoted off my tatoo "Iam myself every day." |
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09-11-2003, 03:17 PM | #58 (permalink) |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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selfish acts can also be evil. so the same position that you chose to defend can also be defended as evil.
in re: to the bequeath.. yes, law dictates it be such. no reward because death precludes it. religion? no because then you create certain situations that just fit right.
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. Last edited by Cynthetiq; 09-11-2003 at 03:19 PM.. |
09-11-2003, 03:23 PM | #59 (permalink) |
Psycho
Location: Hiding from the penguins they come to take my sanity away!
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how about that it makes the person feel good to do this act. he will be praised after his death. he may feel good knowing that he will be praised after his death. a hero of sorts.
...side note... knowing that we cannot stop our death why shouldnt we give an organ to save someones life? be a organ donor. if you are, make sure that your family know so that your organ can be used to save someone elses life!!!!!!
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"enjoy life to the brim but do not spill it" quoted off my tatoo "Iam myself every day." |
09-11-2003, 03:24 PM | #60 (permalink) | |
Addict
Location: Canada
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Quote:
Remember what I said in my most recent post. I know DEEP DEEP in my being that I have witnessed good acts. I challenge you to take a hard critical look inside yourself, and see if you can honestly believe that all good deeds are selfishly motivated. If you can, than you have had the misfurtune of hanging around with a different crowd than have I. |
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09-11-2003, 03:37 PM | #61 (permalink) |
Psycho
Location: Hiding from the penguins they come to take my sanity away!
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Tirian
no you have witness good out comes of selfish acts that you (as a part of your culture) deeply admire. just because they are selfish does not mean that we should stop doing them. good reward is need for all of us to survive. we need things to make us happy. a happy person will make others around them happy. thus a stable enviroment. if you are a hero then you too will be praised and rewarded.
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"enjoy life to the brim but do not spill it" quoted off my tatoo "Iam myself every day." |
09-11-2003, 03:45 PM | #62 (permalink) | |
Addict
Location: Canada
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Quote:
Remember that the word "prove" includes the removal of alternate possibilities. You have in no way (with your reasoning) removed the possibility of a selfless act. You have only introduced the possibility of a selfish one. (which I agreed to the existance of all along.) FYI - I am just continuing to post in the spirit of good discussion. Please take it as such. (not trying to be argumentative here) I hope that's cool. |
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09-11-2003, 03:45 PM | #63 (permalink) | |
Go Ninja, Go Ninja Go!!
Location: IN, USA
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I noticed you said this.... "yea halx all act of altruism are motivated by selfish desires." Do you not understand the MEANING of Altruism? The MEANING is that is NOT motivated by selfish desires. See your whole arguement, i'm sorry to say, is crap. I do not say this to flame, I say this because you took one IMPORTANT WORD, and IGNORED its meaning. Therefore, without Altruism to stop you, you could go on and on. So on that note, here is a dictionary reference. Altruism --Unselfish concern for the welfare of others; selflessness. (Did I hear... Selflessness?) Admit your defeat, you forgot about altruism
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RoboBlaster: Welcome to the club! Not that I'm in the club. And there really isn'a a club in the first place. But if there was a club and if I was in it, I would definitely welcome you to it. |
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09-11-2003, 04:21 PM | #64 (permalink) | |
Wake up
Location: Nowhere special
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Quote:
__________________
"I hope that when the world comes to an end, I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to." -- Donnie Darko |
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09-11-2003, 05:13 PM | #65 (permalink) | |
Insane
Location: Burbs of NYC
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Quote:
Without being able to follow simple protocol, how can one be expected to listen to any following statements? If you had said, Anybody who wants to attempt to prove to me that doing good is not a selfish act, then please post your arguments , then I would understand. So here’s your chance to redeem yourself. Prove your theory. Use arguments, facts, and quotes from philosophers that have fought this argument previously and we will all be gracious listeners. Perhaps we'll even post a poll following to see if you have 'proven' your theory. But as of now, I have not been convinced. Nothing has been proven yet.
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"We got no food, no clothes...our pets HEADS ARE FALLIN' OFF!" |
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09-11-2003, 05:42 PM | #66 (permalink) |
Psycho
Location: Hiding from the penguins they come to take my sanity away!
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hmm i seem to have made some people very angry.
i am all for debates and have taken all that have posted here as a debate. lol i did say all comers. Mr space monkey its a logic statement. the first two are premises and the last is a conclusion. by writing my argument that way, i was proving that my argument is logical. even arguments can be proven using a mathmatical formula. is a good deed, any good deed, that is motivated by selfishness still good. the out come may be good but is the deed? yes i know what altrusim is. altruism is set by the culture we live in, when they tell us what is good and what is bad. altuism the ultimate selflessness good act. NORMALLY, but not always, the untimate act, dieing, to advance ones culture in some way. it is even documented as one of three ways to commit suicide from the american psychology assosciation. Tirian, i am sorry that i offended you, your friends, and the people who are heros in your life. this is just my opinion. as for not know what i am talking about i was a EMT/LPN for 5 years decorated for humanitarian services. (if you want to know more send me a private email i will tell you why). Prove according to dictionary.com is: To establish the truth or validity of by presentation of argument or evidence.
__________________
"enjoy life to the brim but do not spill it" quoted off my tatoo "Iam myself every day." |
09-11-2003, 05:55 PM | #67 (permalink) | |
Insane
Location: Burbs of NYC
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Quote:
Ok, you have the definition. Thats good. Now do it.
__________________
"We got no food, no clothes...our pets HEADS ARE FALLIN' OFF!" |
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09-11-2003, 05:56 PM | #68 (permalink) | |
Wake up
Location: Nowhere special
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Quote:
But anyway, the whole reason i came here was to see the proof that it is impossible to do good deeds. And as Wile E pointed out there hasn't been any proof. Some good debate, but i haven't seen any good solid proof.
__________________
"I hope that when the world comes to an end, I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to." -- Donnie Darko |
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09-11-2003, 06:06 PM | #69 (permalink) |
The Funeral of Hearts
Location: Trapped inside my mind. . .
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I thought you said you could prove that it is impossible to do good, frog, so where's the proof hmmm?
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"So Keep on Pretending. Our Heavens Worth the Waiting. Keep on Pretending. It's Alright." -- H.I.M., "Pretending" |
09-11-2003, 06:52 PM | #70 (permalink) | |
Addict
Location: Canada
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Quote:
Simply pointing out the obvious. I sincerely hope I have not offended you, by differing. |
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09-11-2003, 10:07 PM | #71 (permalink) |
Hiya Puddin'! Miss me?
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
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Okay, these are just my thoughts:
I can almost agree with you 3leggedfrog, but I really don't like absolute statements since there's usually some sort of exception to it. (Except that all humans die and that kind of stuff.) While, I can agree to the fact that most human actions are calculated based on greed and selfishness, I disagree that all (good, or even bad) actions are selfish. I think, while few and far between, truly selfless acts exist. It seems like one of the biggest arguments with your theory is that you think anything selfish is ultimately the determining factor of a good deed. I disagree with this. I think it's only part of the picture. While it is admittedly only one cultural perspective, the first example I can think of is crime. Let's say truly bad crime is represented by black and innocent of crime is white. First degree murder would be black. Second degree murder would be a dark shade of gray. Third degree (a.k.a. manslaughter) would be gray. While minor crimes would be a light shade of gray and innocent would be white. While intentions change the shade representing "bad deeds," it isn't the only determining factor, it's also the type of deed. Black (Murder1) -- Dark Gray (Murder 2) -- Gray (Manslaughter) -- Light Gray (Minor crimes) -- White (Innocent) Where am I getting with this? I think that this continuum can go in the opposite direction. There are white deeds and gray ones. There are black deeds done in the name of good as well. But, I think the extreme ends of the spectrums are not as common as the gray area. I suspect what is going on here is that you've only experienced the gray, and based on your experience, you are not willing to accept the possibility of truly white deeds. Anyway, it sounds like you're so dead set in your ways, that you aren't really taking into full consideration what others are saying. So I feel my post is a moot point.
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=^-^= motdakasha =^-^= Just Google It. BA Psychology & Photography (I'm not going psychoanalyze you nor will I let you cry on my shoulder. Have a nice day.) |
09-12-2003, 01:50 AM | #72 (permalink) | |
Go Ninja, Go Ninja Go!!
Location: IN, USA
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Quote:
As for that dying part? That too could be altruism.. Perhaps you realize that you're gonna die, so you figure you might as well try to go out with a bang, and help everyone else. Thats not selfish, its only selfish if it makes your death not as bad, if you get a thrill of it.. or if that kinda thing will make you happy and you KNOW it. If you dont' know it makes you happy, then its not selfish. Debate that, but I'll counter you first. Take the first time you went down a slide as a kid. Were you in a selfish mindset for going down the slide? No, because you had no clue if you'd like it or not. Maybe the SECOND time.. you went down it for a selfish reason, but certainly not the first. I hope you caught my point. Oh and uh, I agree with Wile E here... You haven't proven it, so uh, why don't you go and Prove yourself Here is a quote... in fact it is your thread title.... "i can prove that it is impossible to do good" Get Typing!
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RoboBlaster: Welcome to the club! Not that I'm in the club. And there really isn'a a club in the first place. But if there was a club and if I was in it, I would definitely welcome you to it. |
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09-12-2003, 02:34 AM | #74 (permalink) |
Loser
Location: Wales
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Time to end this argument.
Is making someone happy good or evil? Happy is good, correct? If I do a good deed for someone and he is happy and I am happy and no one is unhappy its good. A deed is only evil if it has a negative effect on someone. Myself deriving pleasure from the deed isn't negative, its good that I'm happy not sad. Its good they're happy. Why is it good because it encourages the person to do more good deeds, that helps society again and again. Which is good. A where the person makes themself happy but someone else has to be made unhappy to achieve it, now that is a selfish happyness and therefore evil. |
09-12-2003, 04:08 AM | #77 (permalink) | ||
Loser
Location: Wales
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Well lets define selfish, dictionary.com has it as:
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Evil according to dictionary.com: Quote:
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09-12-2003, 05:51 AM | #79 (permalink) | |
Psycho
Location: Memphis
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Quote:
Your premise is that there are no unselfish acts. Someone presents you with a situation. You look at the situation, find a way in which the actor's motivation can be defined as selfish, and declare yourself the winner. The problem is that YOU are defining the motivation regardless of what the actor's true motivation may have been. Your real premise is that self interest is the primary motivating factor in human behavior. You then ask everyone to prove that it is not. You've therefore given everyone the impossible task of proving a negative. Can't be done. You've just issued a wager that no one can win.
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When life hands you a lemon, say "Oh yeah, I like lemons. What else you got?" Henry Rollins |
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09-12-2003, 05:54 AM | #80 (permalink) | |
Psycho
Location: Memphis
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Quote:
__________________
When life hands you a lemon, say "Oh yeah, I like lemons. What else you got?" Henry Rollins |
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good, impossible, prove |
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