09-12-2003, 06:03 AM | #81 (permalink) | |
Fear the bunny
Location: Hanging off the tip of the Right Wing
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Activism is a way for useless people to feel important. |
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09-12-2003, 07:59 AM | #84 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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second guessing or adding supposition invalidates the argument to me, because you are then giving specific conditions to make the argument fit.
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. Last edited by Cynthetiq; 09-12-2003 at 08:03 AM.. |
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09-12-2003, 11:27 AM | #85 (permalink) | |
Loser
Location: Wales
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You can't just say 'self sacrifice' and imply that all self sacrifice is selfless if their are conditions that meet the selfish criteria. |
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09-12-2003, 11:30 AM | #86 (permalink) |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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correct that's the whole reason why I stated it as such. because it invalidates my argument. it just has to be as is face value. you don't know someone's intentions, you can guess, but you cannot know.
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
09-12-2003, 02:13 PM | #88 (permalink) | |||
Psycho
Location: Hiding from the penguins they come to take my sanity away!
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"enjoy life to the brim but do not spill it" quoted off my tatoo "Iam myself every day." Last edited by 3leggedfrog; 09-12-2003 at 02:21 PM.. |
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09-12-2003, 02:14 PM | #89 (permalink) | ||
Psycho
Location: Hiding from the penguins they come to take my sanity away!
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Wile E
sorry i will have some good research in a future post. i have never really researched this topic so you must forgive me when i say i need some time to find some credible sources. my use of the logic argument was an attempt to prove my argument with out research. jwoody thanks, i hope to keep this debate interesting. Quote:
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"enjoy life to the brim but do not spill it" quoted off my tatoo "Iam myself every day." Last edited by 3leggedfrog; 09-12-2003 at 02:19 PM.. |
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09-12-2003, 02:15 PM | #90 (permalink) |
Wake up
Location: Nowhere special
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And yet still no proof . . . *shakes head*
edit: but i still am enjoying the debate
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"I hope that when the world comes to an end, I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to." -- Donnie Darko Last edited by Mr. Spacemonkey; 09-12-2003 at 02:18 PM.. |
09-12-2003, 02:20 PM | #91 (permalink) |
Psycho
Location: Hiding from the penguins they come to take my sanity away!
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look at my logic argument. or wait until i will find some good sources. i have never researched this topic before.
__________________
"enjoy life to the brim but do not spill it" quoted off my tatoo "Iam myself every day." |
09-12-2003, 02:45 PM | #92 (permalink) | |
undead
Location: nihilistic freedom
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09-12-2003, 03:19 PM | #93 (permalink) | |
Fear the bunny
Location: Hanging off the tip of the Right Wing
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__________________
Activism is a way for useless people to feel important. |
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09-12-2003, 03:21 PM | #94 (permalink) | ||
Loser
Location: Wales
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I can prove a theory, but I have to find proof, I didn't bother to look into the topic before I made a claim i could prove it. :Marius comments: Hmmmmmmmm |
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09-12-2003, 04:10 PM | #96 (permalink) | |
Psycho
Location: Hiding from the penguins they come to take my sanity away!
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*sigh* there is more than one way to prove something true or false.
not be be mean or anything but before your can "translate" what i said, you need to understand what i said. in logic, if one cannot find a fallacy and the argument is constructed correctly then it must be true. a fallacy is defined as "A statement or an argument based on a false or invalid inference" by dictionary.com. Before your start saying that you know that my argument is false because... whatever your reason.... look up fallacies in a logic book and tell me the correct fallacy my argument is flawed with. Quote:
i think i can prove my argument is true by logic, but if you want me to prove that my argument is true by another way please wait until i researce this topic. i started this thread a few days ago on a whim sleep depraved.
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"enjoy life to the brim but do not spill it" quoted off my tatoo "Iam myself every day." |
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09-12-2003, 04:14 PM | #97 (permalink) |
The Funeral of Hearts
Location: Trapped inside my mind. . .
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You can't logically prove that good is impossible to do, Frog, the only option you have is to do some sort of research on it. Might be a hard topic to research though.
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"So Keep on Pretending. Our Heavens Worth the Waiting. Keep on Pretending. It's Alright." -- H.I.M., "Pretending" |
09-13-2003, 02:38 PM | #98 (permalink) |
Psycho
Location: Hiding from the penguins they come to take my sanity away!
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yes you can, philosophers have been proving their philosophies with logic for thousands of years.
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"enjoy life to the brim but do not spill it" quoted off my tatoo "Iam myself every day." |
09-13-2003, 04:26 PM | #99 (permalink) |
Wake up
Location: Nowhere special
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Okay then, if you say you can prove it with logic . . . THEN DO IT.
You keep on saying that you can prove it but you sure aren't showing any.
__________________
"I hope that when the world comes to an end, I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to." -- Donnie Darko |
09-13-2003, 06:36 PM | #100 (permalink) |
Insane
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The Reason your argument that it is impossible to do good is flawed to me.. is because your telling me how I feel when doing something "good". You say I do it for my own personal motives.. how do you know this? I can not on a whim do something good because I just happen to feel like doing it? If there is a feeling of goodness or it does something for you to do this "good" deed.. it does not matter. I know I dont do good deeds to get off. I just do them because its something I do.
Even if it is done for selfish reasons.. Just because something is selfish does not mean its a bad thing, or a wrong thing. A car is about to hit me.. I move out of the way. By your reasoning this is selfish and bad. Others may see this as a good deed simply because they rely on me in some way. I see no reason why something can not be selfish and good at the same time. It is all a matter of opinion... and yours does not hold much weight to me. Edit: It also depends on what you decide "good" is and what defines doing "good" Thanks I hope this makes sense.. I'm very tired right now. and even if you dont agree with it. Its how I see things.
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"Your life is yours to live, go out and live it" - Richard Rahl Last edited by Booboo; 09-13-2003 at 06:46 PM.. |
09-13-2003, 06:41 PM | #101 (permalink) |
The Funeral of Hearts
Location: Trapped inside my mind. . .
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This thread hasn't proven that good is impossible yet, waiting. . . waiting. . .
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"So Keep on Pretending. Our Heavens Worth the Waiting. Keep on Pretending. It's Alright." -- H.I.M., "Pretending" |
09-13-2003, 06:44 PM | #102 (permalink) | |
Wake up
Location: Nowhere special
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Quote:
__________________
"I hope that when the world comes to an end, I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to." -- Donnie Darko |
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09-13-2003, 06:45 PM | #103 (permalink) |
Psycho
Location: Hiding from the penguins they come to take my sanity away!
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fine i had time to sit and think over your proof over a glass of wine tonight. here goes
Fredrich Nietzche's will to power. he stated that there are only two types of people slaves and masters. masters rule over the slaves. to counter act this the slaves invented morals and religion to try to limit the masters power. aristotle's pyrmid of virtue. for ones psyche to be in good health one must balance the soul between will and appetite (desire). all your actions are based off of either fullfilling or denying your appetite. all things in moderation. all our actions are based on desire. hume in a very simplistic metaphore we (humans) are all just wind up toys that god created in the begining of time. there is no good or evil because we are just following a set pattern. free will is just a illusion. can't do good if we are just wind up toys. (the matric reloaded philosophy behind the Prophecies) Jean-Paul Sartre we are born on this earth without being given a chooice. we learn the most terrible knowledge that we will die. we and all those around us are finite. there is no good nor evil just chooices. while we are alive there are no rule books that we can judge ourselves "good" nor "evil". we have our institions to guild us but they cannot tells what is truly right for us. ie thou shall not kill. what if there is someone trying to kill us. the rules to live by that the christian god wrote down in what we call the commandments. i would use other religions but it would take too long to explain those religions. sorry. Sigmund Freud id, ego, super ego. id = selfish desires. ego= that which controls the id. super ego ethics we learn from our culture. like i said this argument has been aroud for a very long time. more later.
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"enjoy life to the brim but do not spill it" quoted off my tatoo "Iam myself every day." Last edited by 3leggedfrog; 09-13-2003 at 06:47 PM.. |
09-13-2003, 06:48 PM | #105 (permalink) |
The Funeral of Hearts
Location: Trapped inside my mind. . .
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I don't see the proof in the opinions of dead philosopher's and myths, so where is the solid proof?
__________________
"So Keep on Pretending. Our Heavens Worth the Waiting. Keep on Pretending. It's Alright." -- H.I.M., "Pretending" |
09-13-2003, 06:50 PM | #106 (permalink) | |
Insane
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Quote:
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"Your life is yours to live, go out and live it" - Richard Rahl |
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09-13-2003, 06:51 PM | #107 (permalink) |
Psycho
Location: Hiding from the penguins they come to take my sanity away!
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oh and hobbes in social contract. we are brutish and violent and the only reason we are together at all is because we need what others have. we make contracts with others to our mutual benifit. i dont want to die so i wont attempt to kill you if dont attempt to kill me.
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"enjoy life to the brim but do not spill it" quoted off my tatoo "Iam myself every day." |
09-13-2003, 06:54 PM | #108 (permalink) |
Wake up
Location: Nowhere special
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Hah! That's your proof? I can't wait to see the rest because that showed no good, solid proof.
__________________
"I hope that when the world comes to an end, I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to." -- Donnie Darko |
09-13-2003, 06:59 PM | #109 (permalink) |
The Funeral of Hearts
Location: Trapped inside my mind. . .
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Spacemonkey, he is proving one thing. And that is 'Don't take the opinions of dead philosopher's seriously.' I mean cmon, don't you think that the statements you've posted sound the least bit ridiculous? All philosophy is is opinions. And if that is your proof than you have proven nothing, Frog.
__________________
"So Keep on Pretending. Our Heavens Worth the Waiting. Keep on Pretending. It's Alright." -- H.I.M., "Pretending" |
09-13-2003, 07:01 PM | #110 (permalink) | |
Psycho
Location: Hiding from the penguins they come to take my sanity away!
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what type of proof are you looking for? here are great respected philosophers and psychologists who wrote their great works from thousands of years ago to the 1980's arguing in their own way that selfish desire is behind all actions that humans do. i have taken examples from people here in tthis post and showed that selfish desire is behind all the "good" acts from sacrificing one self for others to charity. can you be more specific in what you want?
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"enjoy life to the brim but do not spill it" quoted off my tatoo "Iam myself every day." |
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09-13-2003, 07:07 PM | #111 (permalink) |
The Funeral of Hearts
Location: Trapped inside my mind. . .
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I want you to prove it, as you said you could, did you not? I don't wanna hear the opinions of professional opinion givers I want you to prove to me in your own words that good is impossible. And I'm starting to think that it's impossible for you to prove that good cannot be done. You have to have some proof that it's impossible, otherwise you woulden't have started the thread in the first place, right?
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"So Keep on Pretending. Our Heavens Worth the Waiting. Keep on Pretending. It's Alright." -- H.I.M., "Pretending" |
09-13-2003, 07:21 PM | #112 (permalink) | |
Psycho
Location: Hiding from the penguins they come to take my sanity away!
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Quote:
__________________
"enjoy life to the brim but do not spill it" quoted off my tatoo "Iam myself every day." |
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09-13-2003, 07:24 PM | #113 (permalink) |
Crazy
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This is pointless. You cannot, absolutely cannot, assume to know a person's reasoning for taking an action. Just because an act could have been selfish does not mean that it was. Sure you can examine a given situation and come up with many selfish reasons that a person took those actions, but that does not mean that those were in fact the motivations for their actions.
You say that if you take away the reward for the action then the action would not be perfomed, but you also say that everything is predetermined and therefore there is no free will. If this is true then wouldn't the action be performed whether or not the reward was still present? Your logic is very flawed. Until you can prove without a shadow of a doubt that all actions are indeed motivated by selfish desires you have proven nothing. |
09-13-2003, 07:34 PM | #115 (permalink) | |
Psycho
Location: Hiding from the penguins they come to take my sanity away!
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Quote:
me: look outside the sky is bule. you: no it isnt where is your proof. me: look out side you: so you say. where is your proof that is blue? i see no proof me: here is a chart that says the color up there is blue you: i want proof. this chart is not proof. where is your references. me: this leader in his feild of physics say it is so you: all you have proven is that we shouldnt trust those people. where is your proof. me: what kind of proof do you want you: i want hard, concrete proof that it is blue. me: so have you see whos on second. no whos on first. (albert and constello)
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"enjoy life to the brim but do not spill it" quoted off my tatoo "Iam myself every day." |
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09-13-2003, 07:39 PM | #116 (permalink) |
Wake up
Location: Nowhere special
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Haha! That was funny.
Getting pretty desperate eh? Comparing that to this thread, they aren't even close in comparison. You'll never find something even close to proof, just except it and give up.
__________________
"I hope that when the world comes to an end, I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to." -- Donnie Darko |
09-13-2003, 07:39 PM | #117 (permalink) |
Insane
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I think heres your problem..
self·ish ( P ) Pronunciation Key (slfsh) adj. Concerned Chiefly or only with oneself: “Selfish men were... trying to make capital for themselves out of the sacred cause of human rights” (Maria Weston Chapman). selfishness \Self"ish*ness\, n. The quality or state of being selfish; Exclusive regard to one's own interest or happiness; that Supreme self-love or self-preference which leads a person to direct his purposes to the advancement of his own interest, power, or happiness, without regarding those of others. When you do something for someone else, or do "good", even if it makes you feel better.. generally you will not do it Exclusively for your own interests or happiness. There is still concern regarding the person(s) you are helping. There may be a small amount of selfishness in the deed, but the fact remains you are helping someone else and in so doing improving their quality of life... this part of the act is Not selfish. Therefore... if the motivation for doing the act is more heavily weighed with helping someone, then doing it for those feelings of greatness or whatever, then by the definition from dictionary.com the act is not selfish. I think that makes sense... =) Edited for various gramatical errors...
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"Your life is yours to live, go out and live it" - Richard Rahl Last edited by Booboo; 09-13-2003 at 07:46 PM.. |
09-13-2003, 08:11 PM | #118 (permalink) | |
Psycho
Location: Hiding from the penguins they come to take my sanity away!
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Quote:
finally someone with a good logical argument against my argument. ok does that happen? does our concers for others outway our selfihs desires? this leaves the realm of philosophy and enters psychology. self image one of our most important concepts in mental health. self image is how we see our selves and how we believe others see us. i am a good person a good person does this.... if we do the act there is no problem we feel no anxiety, guilt etc. if we do not then we feel a almost physical pain that is the emotional upheaval caused the painful realization we are not who we thought we are. so we make up reasons to make our actions fit our versions of our self image. i didnt save the boy because he was not really a good boy or i couldnt have saved him... ect. our belief in who we are is so powerful that it can makes us do amazing or really stupid things. here is another point. when someone says that Mr. Everyone just died in a car accident what is the usally first responces. was he drinking, was he wearing a seatbelt. we dont really care that he die (unless he was very close to us say a beloved family member) we just want someone to comfort us saying that cant happen to us. we do this to protect our self image that driving a car is safe for us. our self image is ruthless in protecting oursleves. we will even commit suicide to protect our self image. worse our self image is at a unconscious level. so we dont even relalize we are doing it. when we do these acts we call good we, are in the end, just trying to protecting our self image.
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"enjoy life to the brim but do not spill it" quoted off my tatoo "Iam myself every day." |
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09-13-2003, 09:22 PM | #119 (permalink) | ||
Insane
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I think it certainly can. I think it might depend on the situations, but it also depends on whats are more important to you. Your desires, or someone elses well being. And sure, you could say that because someone elses well being is important to you, that when you defend it, you are being selfish because it is important to you.
However I dont think that is always the case... or even mostly the case for that matter. I think it really depends on your own values and morals. Quote:
I appologize if that example offended anyone... it was all I could think of at the time. Quote:
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"Your life is yours to live, go out and live it" - Richard Rahl |
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09-13-2003, 11:49 PM | #120 (permalink) | |
Addict
Location: Canada
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My point is exactly that; since you have not shown that these acts ARE selfish or badly motivated, than you have proven absolutly nothing. Only an all knowing being (ie God) could actually prove this one way or the other by actually KNOWING what motivated each persons good deeds. You have only guessed what motivates each person. Human philosphers and pshyco-babblers are also guessing. Last edited by Tirian; 09-13-2003 at 11:53 PM.. |
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good, impossible, prove |
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