i8one2

Got no problem with a little corporal punishement after that "time out thing" failed

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mongo

I have only spanked my son once or twice.I try to talk to him..even yell at him sometimes.However it seems that you just can't get your point across sometimes without that reinforcement.I know I'm probably not the best father in the world but I try like hell.My dad had to smack me a few times when I was growing up and as a father now I realize the meaning.There were times when I just didn't listen.No matter how much he talked or yelled I just didn't do it.

ARTelevision

sapiens,
you have just proven (inadvertently, I'm guessing) that - at most - corporal punishment is not predictive of anything in particular and therefore, not deleterious.

To follow up on your statement:
I would say that the response given by the successful individual would, on average, be more reliable. Successful individuals rarely blame their upbringing for their problems - coincidentally, they don't have as many, do they?

Unsuccessful people, on average, seem to blame everything - including the facts (or delusions) of their upbringing - for their problems - of which they typically have quite a lot.

Rather than tie up the discussion with a neat equation, you have in fact, clouded it with issues that are quite disparate.

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homerhop

I see it around me every day, kids whos parents "talk" to their kids. Im not saying it does not work but a good clip on the ear really brings the point across.I see my friends kids who run riot do what they want and even kick their parents all to their parents plea of "dont do that jimmy thats bold"
A gentle reminder of what is wrong or right is no harm.I got it as did my sisters. I can show you every kid in my area who didn't.

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krwlz

i would assume then that i am the exception to the rule, i dont sneak, and i dont lie...then again why would a reduction of privledges (say driving, etc.) not make one sneak? i think it would make them sneak more!

by the way, the throat grabbing was at the extreme, it happenede like twice, both times i deserved it, i lost privledges, and as a rule got rewards, but i think that i am a better person from the physical punishment, occaisional throat grabbing, or the flying tackle off the stairs...makes one realize something...you treat people like shit (especialy your father) and you ought to expect something like that....

Phaenx

My brother (his wife made this decision) and his wife decided they weren't going to spank their kids. Years later they decided that wasn't a good idea.

I myself wasn't spanked much as a kid. Not because my parents didn't believe in it (my sister got hell unleashed on her on a regular basis) it was more that I was a perfect child! Hurray!

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louiedog

I was never spanked when I was a kid. I've never shoplifted, I didnt' fight in high school (other than a few self-defense instances where I disabled but never threw a punch), or any of the things that can land a kid in big trouble. I didn't have anything to rebel against. My parents treated me fairly and sat me down when I did something wrong and explained why it was bad. I don't see any reason to spank a child. I don't get the argument that if your parents spanked you and you did okay then it's okay to spank your kids. If you don't die from a dose of radiation you don't go back for seconds. If it didn't do anything too bad in the longrun it's not necessarily doing any good that can't be done in another way.

sapiens

From what I said, you can choose to take the thread to the issue of whether or not unsuccessful people make internal versus external attributions about their failure. However, the fact that some people turn out fine when they are beaten and some people do not is not the same thing and does not cloud the issue of whether or not corporal punishment is an effective means of behavioral modification. A discussion of attributions we make about control over success and failure is a separate issue which I didn't bring up. (ARTelevision: I do think that it is an interesting issue that could merit some discussion).

I certainly don't think that anyone will tie up the discussion of corporal punishment with "a neat equation." It's a complicated issue. It wouldn't be an interesting discussion topic if it could be tied up with a "neat equation."

I think that there are individual differences between people in the effectiveness of corporal punishment in modifying behavior. I have worked with kids that appear to be reinforced by corporal punishment. They provoke people until they get it and they love the people who give it to them. For those kinds of kids, corporal punishment is not going to decrease the bad behavior. It may instead increase it. I have also worked with kids who decrease the bad behavior immediately when punished physically. In their case, it seems like punishment works. The danger of punishment for many of these kids is a danger of punishment in general. Punishment often reinforces a fear of the punisher. This can teach the child to avoid performing the behavior in front of the punisher, to avoid getting caught, but it does not provide the child with an appropriate behavioral alternative. (This type of effect seems to be the most prevalent in the empirical literature).

An important and related issue is that "corporal punishment" encompasses a lot of different parenting strategies (as BoCo suggested). Even "spanking" may encompass a lot of different behaviors. Beating a child severely with a belt or beating them until they bruise are qualitatively different from a few spanks on the bottom. So, people who say that they benefitted from corporal punishment may be speaking about an experience entirely different from a child who was beaten with a belt, or cut with a knife, or burned with a cigarette, etc (I've seen worse). Because corporal punishment is such a general term, I wouldn't expect it to be predictive of anything. If we were more specific about types corporal punishment, we might find some statistically significant predictors.

A common argument for corporal punishment is "I was beaten and I turned out fine. So, corporal punishment must be ok." The argument on the other side is, of course, "I was beaten and I'm now really messed up." Making a causal claim about corporal punishment being responsible for you turning out fine is just as flawed as making a causal claim about corporal punishment ruining your life. The individuals may be talking about qualitatively different experiences. Plus, there are many factors which influence the development of children into well adjusted adults. Can someone really know that corporal punishment was the one factor, the holy grail of parenting, responsible for their good (or bad) adjustment as adults?

A separate issue that bothers be a lot when I see it in the developmental literature is whether or not beating kids causes kids to grow up and beat their own kids (the cycle of violence argument). (Here, I am talking about something different from mild, corrective corporal punishment). Could it be possible that parents beat their kids not because of the their social history (because they were beaten), but instead because of something innate in them? Maybe in some cases the genes that code for the behavioral tendency to use corporal punishment are the same genes that code for pain in the ass kids who need a little corporal punishment every once in a while (and who respond positively to that punishment).

Generally, I think that positive reinforcement is more effective than punishment in modifying the behavior of a child. Hopefully, you can plan ahead and reinforce the positive behavior so that you will never have to punish the negative behavior. Unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect world and all of us aren't perfect parents. There are always times when a child does something so costly, so dangerous to themselves, that an immediate response with punishment may be the most effective. In these cases, I think that it is important for parents to "debrief" their children. Explain to them what they did wrong, why it was wrong, what they should have done, how they can perform the appropriate behavior in the future, and that the parent loves the child. Parenting is hard. It requires a lot of thought and a lot of foresight.

Corporal punishment is not a "neat" concept. Parenting is not a "neat" issue. I certainly did not provide a "neat" equation to explain all of the issues. I don't think that anyone can.

ARTelevision: Thank you for the thought provoking comments. More generally, I appreciate the thought-provoking discussion from everyone.

ARTelevision

sapiens, well put as usual. Thanks for all the effort and thought you put into your contributions here.
Posts like yours give us pause to read reflect and consider. Thanks also for knowing how to handle the various sorts of responses.

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sapiens

I'm not sure how well put it was. It may have been a thread-killer.

MilleniumZeus

Let me tell you that I am a hs teacher and this generation of kids are spoiled little brats that spent too much time in "time-out" or losing their Gameboys for a week instead of being spanked. Most kids that I have contact with do not respect their parents and treat their parents like a sister or brother. It's disgusting. Bunch of whiney brats. Smacks on the butt teach a lesson. There are guidelines and rules, follow them as long as you are under my roof, whether you agree with them or not. When my kids have their own house, they can establish their own rules. Respect is key. However, if you feel you are being abused, talk with your friends and see what they say. Parents are human too and have issues of their own, make sure you are being punished for your problems, not theirs. I have switched to so many tenses. I can't remember who I am writing to. Sorry about the preaching.

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raeanna74

I spank my child under certain conditions. 1. Only hard enough to hurt some - never enough to leave marks. 2. Only under circumstances where disobedience would put her in physical danger (ie. running into the road) 3. Not in anger. 4. With a spoken explanation before and after and a hug and cuddle afterwards.

I have found that with my girl sending her to her room for just a minute or two is more effective at least at this age than a spanking is. She is not quite three but timeouts and spankings aren't near as effective and completely separating her from me for just a minute. It also gives me time to calm down if the disobedience was upsetting to me. She has a high pain threshold and can scrap her knee but get up and keep playing while getting blood all over her clothes. Spanking isn't going to get much attention if a bloody knee doesn't get any either. Some children are more sensitive to it and it may work better for them. It depends on the child, the situation, and the parents. No matter what I would never do it in anger or leave a mark. That isn't necessary. The child must always know that we love them and why they are being punished.

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scancode

scancode

Smack them 'till their butts are red

Averett

blah blah, used to be something here now theres not. nothing to see here. move along

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DelayedReaction

Although it's not as valid an argument as I would like it to be, I'm in the group that says "I was spanked, turned out well, and intend to use spanking when I am a parent." Although still a young adult (and single), I think spanking is useful as a psychological tool more than a physical means of punishment. When I do have children, I will swear to never touch them while angry. I will send them to their room, calm down, and then decide a punishment. This has the added benefit of giving them time to think about what they've done.

I was spanked with a wooden spoon, and it worked well. As a kid I knew that the wooden spoon meant I had done something wrong, and that my actions were unacceptable.

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Destrox

I grew up on spanking, my parents grew up on it, and theirs before that did as well.

It worked, and we are all perfectly fine.

Now I know this isnt a fair statement, but I have seen more annoying little shits come from families who dont "believe" in physical punishment and use the "go sit in your room
treatments then the reverse.

Its not to be confused with giving your children a fear, but just a simple set of punishment.

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Cadwiz

I think it all boils down to consequences for actions. Think about it, what is keeping most of us from robbing a bank? The consequences. Children and young adults these days don't have consequences for their actions. "Oooooh!, if I do something bad, my parents might tell me it was wrong and ground me to my room to watch tv and talk on the phone and play on the computer". "Boy, I better not do that". It is in the legal system as well. "I didn't mean to kill that person and hide them in my freezer, but my mommy didn't read to me at night". "It's not my fault".
Hell ya I spank my kids, but I only had to do it a few times. Once I got the point across, they realize they have to make a choice. Do I want to do this bad enough toput up with the consequences. On a side note, I haven't had to spank them in the last four years. That's my rant. Thanks.

tecoyah

You have the right to spank....I have the right not too. I think my children deserve better than hitting, but that is only opinion.

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canuckguy

My parents spanked my sister and I, my sister tells me the story of the last time my parents spanked us as I don't remember, too young.. We were misbehaving or whatever and my father went to spanked us with a belt (70's thing i guess) and he missed his target as I was thrashing about and hit my face. I guess my dad cried for hours and never hit us again.
I will not be taking this road of punishment for my daughter. I can't remember any spankings I received, but I bet i deserved it

Gotenks

Unless previously stated, I think the right to spank has an absolute age limit. Young enough that they're still learning right from wrong, maybe to a max age of 7. Than after that, I think that *I* (personally) would only hit my child if he used a strong amount of profanity towards me or my wife (which I don't have... but when I have a kid I hope he has a mother!). I guess, it all depends on how YOU grew up. I know I grew up with barely ever being beaten (atleast none that I can recall), I also know that I turned out alot worse than I would want my child to turn out like... so I would probably be a bit more strict in situations that my parent would be lenient to me about.

Definately would NEVER "Beat" my child, there's a thin line between teaching them right for wrong, and you just being mad and hot headed.

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combatmedicjen

I personally believe that spanking to "stun" your kid when they're young is fine if they're doing something very wrong or dangerous, like sticking keys in electrical sockets or pulling the dog's ears (woops!), but I personally think that striking a child with any intent to physically hurt them is cruel and inexcusable. My mom swatted me on my ass a few times when I was a kid and got the point across without causing any actual physical harm. My brothers, my husband, my parents and I are all living proof that you can grow up without physical punishment and turn out absolutely fine.

Diamond

I have been spanked, and deserved every one I got, even got away with a bunch. I do spank, within reason and in appropriate situations. Children need direction, I do use time outs, but get laughed at the older they get. I work out a lot, and the kids see it, so they do push ups when it applies. Be creative, be firm, make good adults. We all thank you.

Menoman

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Gertie

Gotenks came close to my opinion. A swat for emphasis, often on the hand, is usually enough to get a child's attention that something is seriously wrong to do. It should be done judiciously and thoughtfully, not in anger. And by the time a child is 6 or 7 there should be no more need for corporal punishment. By that time you can reason with them and/or apply punishments that they will understand. These work best if you have developed a strong relationship based on love and trust.

nothingx

I think a lot of us feel that whatever our parents did for us, is good enough for our children. For instance, my parents spanked my ass plenty, and I think I'm okay.

My girlfriend, on the otherhand, who has a degree in psychology, says that spanking is called "positive punishment" (I think) and that it's a proven fact that it doesn't work as well as other types of punishment, and certainly not at well as rewarding your kid when he does the right thing.

That said, more than anything, disciplin is most effective with consistancy and fairness. For those that say they knew a kid that ended up in jail because they never got their ass kicked when they needed it, you are probably right that they needed suitable punishment, which they didn't recieve. Suitable punishment, is not necessarily physical pain.

danman78

Beaten, or Disciplined. HUGE difference. Beating a child is WRONG. But not disciplining a child is equally wrong - in terms of the lasting effect. A child who grows up to understand the importance of consequence will be an effective member of society. I was spanked as a child and feel that it was done in a loving and direct way. The idea is to inflict a harmless amount of physical pain and no injury. Never done in anger, but with an intelligent plan in mind. With CLEAR consequences, discipline is easier to project. An effective spanking is reflected by an child that understood why they got the punishment, what the punishment was before hand and that they deserved it. As with the last post, MOST people who were raised this way stay out of prison and obey the law. THIS crap that Physiologists are preaching about how to raise our kids is teaching most of them one thing.....as long as you can avoid the consequence to a crime (no matter how small) then it is OK. Our modern legal system only supports this Junk. In our courts today, justice is replaced my utter nonsense. If my child is disobedient (for instance I might say "trust me when I tell you not to run out in the middle of the street" I want his obedience and trust of me to be immediate for his safety. So I will make a punishment that is CLEAR (not always a spanking) and every time I will deliver, this leaves no excuse for disarray. But in our courts today, in society and in the media, more time is spent figuring out how a punishment can be avoided or lessened than figuring out weather or not a person is actually guilty. I find this Disgusting.!~!!

I agree with all the other posts concerning age - Spanking should only be used until the child is old enough to comprehend other forms of punishment.
But this is often too late an a child can develope a bad case of disobediance is you wait till they can talk to disipline. Many of the kids that you see on talk shows like "MY KID IS OUT OF CONTOL" and then they send them to kid boot camp, there is a reason this really works. Because the kids need to grow up knowing that there is a consiquence for every action. If you are blessed to have a child that responds well to other forms of dicipline - you are blessed. (there are many) I have one.

but spanking if done correctly SHOULD never be taken away from us as a legal means of Child Rearing!!!!!@

MageB420666

Well I would just like to put in my 2 cents.

I am almost twenty years old and I was spanked as a child I can still remember several of the occasions. I do not remember what I did wrong but I do know that it wasn't punishment for little misbehaviors. I was spanked when I deserved it. My dad used a belt and that thing hurt like hell, or at least it seemed to at that age, now I realized that my dad was barely swinging at all, but I do remember that he did not wait to cool down, he just kept his anger in control. I would like to think I turned out good, I've never been to jail, exept to visit, and I'm currently studying for a Bachelors in Computer Engineering. I would like to think that I am a case of support for corporal punishment.

Now my older brother is a different matter. He is currently serving a 33 year sentence for second degree murder(he did a plea bargain to get it down from 1st). I do not recall him ever being treated differently then I was and my parents always made it clear that they loved him and just wanted what was best for him. I guess I would just have to say that in his case he was just a little asshole who took just wanted to have a good time and no responsibilities, despite how hard my parents tried to teach him the importance of responsibilty. Now that he is in prison he has calmed down quite a bit and is starting to mature and become more responsible.

Corporal punishment was not the only method my parents used, they would give us time out for misbehavior that wasn't really bad, but worse than just a little disobedience. They didn't send us to our rooms, they made us stand in the coner, usually for about twenty minutes. There were also times that they would just sit us down and explain to us why what we did was wrong.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that you shouldn't use just one form of punishment, it should be varied according to how bad the kid has been. I'm also trying to say that sometimes it doesn't matter how you discipline the kid, he/she is just not going to listen/learn. It is as much a matter of the individual child as it is the form of punishment.

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Paq

I was spanked rarely as a child, most of the time, nothing more than a swat, once was like 6 when i almost burned down a storage shed (i was a pyro as a kid). I don't think it was 'necessary' to get a point across to me, as i was generally a kid who hated being in trouble. i still do, actually, so i was pretty much just one of those 'good' kids that didn't do too much to get into trouble. I was also one of those kids that you could say 'no' to and i'd listen for the most part.

On the other hand, i pretty much knew that they weren't bluffing when they said i would get in trouble and i knew what it would lead to, so that may have shaped my fragile little mind as well, but i dont' think so. I just think i like making people happy more than i like doing whatever.

on the 5th hand, i am also a bit of a strange person and nothing that applies to me applies the same to anybody.

Do i think i would spank as a parent....I think so as it is an immediate 'attention getter' but i dont' think i'd go overboard and it certainly would not be my first option. I hate causing pain or fear.

Now, would i spank my gf..oh hell yea (sorry, had to throw in some levity as i have known too many abused children along wtih a lot of children who were properly spanked when appropriate)

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The Phenomenon

I agree with spanking with the hand (not the fist) to the arse is appropriate in some cases. Using a belt or a paddle or anything like that is not.

For me when the kid does something stupid that he/she knows they are not supposed to do and that is bad for them, spanking is in order.

Grounding etc can be used in other cases. When your kid steals your car or gets his 14 year old GF pregnant kick his arse :P

bigoldalphamale

for me, spanking was how i knew when i REALLY fucked up. it was how i learned what was right and wrong and the grey area in between. if i did something like tracking mud through the house...i was told to clean it up and if i didnt, i got yelled at. if i took all of my dad's $1000 golf clubs into the back yard and wrapped them around trees and hit rocks with them....i would get a few hard ones accross the backside. so i learned that tracking mud in the house isnt nearly as bad as fucking with my dad's expensive toys. maybe not the best example...but i plan to tan my child's ass when they REALLY fuck up...and i will yell, ground, and use other modes of discipline for the greyer areas of wrong. this of course applies on the other end of the spectrum. praise and gifts for good behavior reinforces what is right and what is better than right.

username

As long as I can remember, my parents have always talked to me like an adult. When they punished me, they would sit me down and talk to me about what I did wrong and why it was wrong. Normally, this worked pretty well, but if I didn't follow their advice and did it again, I got spanked. This worked fine for a while, but then I just started laughing while getting spanked. So, they had to adjust the way they punished me, which was taking away the rights to do things, like watch TV (as a little kid this is bad, however now, it is an ok thing).

However, everybody responds differently to punishments, some people need the spankings, other people need to be talked to and explained why it was wrong, it all depends on the type of child they are. Whenever I have kids I would like to try and raise them as my parents raised me: treated with respect and talked to like an adult and not a child.

gondath

Conversation is definetely the better alternative to spanking I would have to say. Spanking just to stun as some people have put it is valid if only light and to get the youngest kids to realize when they are in mortal danger. Past a certain age, which would depend on the mentality of the individual child, talking things out would do the most good. Penalties then could consist of taking away privileges if the dialogues reach a standstill. Spanking should always be taken seriously. Violence tends to get out of hand really quickly. This is why I think it should be reserved for situations of immediate danger for the child and then only carefully. It would be no use trying to keep the kid from getting into jail later, as some have made the comparison, if their home becomes a prison of suffering all of its own.

MaGlC_MaN

i say spank those little fuckers til they die! then keep spanking them til your hand can't take it anymore! then use the other hand!

..nah, spanking's ok, but save it for the real bad stuff, cuz i hated it. my dad spanked me once and i got pissed and hid in the shack behind my house for a long time. he thought i ran away and went looking for me in his car. that taught him.

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la petite moi

I think that younger children deserve a little spank on the bum when it's for a good reason. However, my parent hit us for every little thing -a bad grade, picking flowers off plant when we didn't know it was special, eating a waffle on the couch (but not making a mess), running off to pee on a hike- with yardsticks, belts, tree branches. My mother even choked me and kicked me almost to the point of blacking out. This did not help me; it made me resent and fear my parents. Finally, my sister told a social worker (after the social worker had been called into her junior high because another kid saw my mother hitting my sister at the bus stop) thinking everything would be all better, but instead my parents told us we were horrible and that we didn't deserve anything.

My mother recently admitted that she was out of control- she knows it now, and I knew it then. Spanking is something as discipline when a child needs it. When a kid knows their grades are bad and will try harder, or when a kid learns their lesson after being grounded, or when a kid gets the point from grounding that eating on the couch is not acceptable- beating or spanking is never the answer. Always try talking to a child, is what I think would work.

Baldrick

It really depends on the child, but I'm a firm believer in talk first, spank second.

My Dad only raised a hand to me bottom once (and it was very well deserved both times) when I was growing up. But he reminded me regularly what would happen if I "crossed the line". In hindsight, it was all talk but I didn't know that at the time - I respected and somewhat feared me 'da. The thought of him kicking my ass was enough to make sure I thought twice before crossing my folks in some way.

I swore at my Mom once... Once...

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adam

I have a daughter who's almost 5; we have never spanked her, and haven't had much trouble with discipline. However, that may be as much an aspect of her personality as anything else... she is easily discouraged.

I'm not much on physical punishment, myself, and my wife is even less enthusiastic.

tangledweb

Spanking a child is/should be about consequences. Consequences for actions or inactions that have bad or potentially bad potential outcomes. Corporal punishment isn't always used that way by people because people are what they are.

I have about 40 to 50 children who are left in my care (at my store) each Saturday to play games and interact with their peers. I can tell you EXACTLY which children get spanked and which children do not. Of the kids that we have told not to come back due to continual misbehavior, I can tell you that most of them are children who get no discipline and have no fear of reprisal from their parents.

Spanking or corporal punishment is quick and over with. The problem with 'time-Out' and 'restriction' type punishments is that they become more difficult for the parent to deal with. Rather than have to deal with the child, they just end the restriction and let the kids go. The only lesson learned there is that they just have to wait it out and Mom/Dad will cave.

YMMV.

adam

Yeah, my mileage does vary. Different kids respond in different ways, basically because personality has a lot to do with it. Take a look at Nurture by Nature some time.

raven12

Spanking should be the last resort, everything else should be tried before you spank a child...but it is sometimes necessary.