Herk

Recently my daughter came home from school and asked me to take her to McDonald's. Right off the bat; not cool. It is a result of a fundraiser for the local PTA called McTeacher night. Apparently schools across the nation participate in this. I raised a red flag and, through much resistance from the PTA president, am on the agenda to discuss this at the meeting tomorrow night.

I see a lot of bad in this and absolutely zero good. I'm hoping to get some of your opinions so that I can speak comfortable tomorrow night. Essentially my beef with it is simple. There is no room for corporate influence in schools. I hate to see children exploited for others to profit. It is very similar to the door to door fundraisers where they enlist children as slave labor to sell their goods from door to door.

This sort of operation generally operates in a guise of benefit to the children. For instance, with McTeacher night the PTA gets 20% of profits earned for McD's to benefit the school. Of course McD's gets the rest and your kids get type 2 diabetes, but only the dollar signs make it into the eyepiece. Why not send a letter and ask parents to calculate the cost of driving to McD's and buying a meal for the family, divide by 5, and please donate that to the PTA. You might even add a footnote that says, "If you really care about our children, you might go ahead and skip the dividing by 5 step... and also add in the money your child might save by not being a product of the fast food nation."

Don't mistake me. I'm fat, and I catch an All American Meal on a regular basis, but McD's is obviously a corporation that cares about making money more than children's wellbeing. My daughter goes to a public school. How can this be ok with people?

I feel like my rant lost clarity before I even started. I'm going to cut myself of before the rage grows.

Your thoughts?

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-Blind faith runs into things!-

robot_parade

fwiw, I've seen this with other fast food restaurants - Chick fil a, for one. This is similar to various other techniques - like the 'susan komen breast cancer' pink stuff. The company gets more people to buy their stuff, gets to look like a good guy, and keeps most of the profit. It's 'win' all around for them.

Still, it's a tricky situation...strict donations would technically be better, but they tend to go against human nature. People don't like to beg for handouts, and they don't generally like to give them, either. This way you have the fiction of buying and selling to cover the otherwise awkward social situation.

Think about this - girl scout cookies are also the same thing. Being a national organization, the Girl Scouts have more power to bargain for a higher percentage of the profit to go towards the actual purpose of the fundraiser, but the cookies are still made by commercial bakers at a profit.

If you simply did away with this method of fundraising, what would you replace it with?

One tactic I can see is to just ensure that the PTA analyzes exactly how much of the sales (you said '20% of the profit') and makes a decision based on that. 20% of the profit seems...not too bad, to me. Is that standard? Do other restaurants offer a 'better deal'?

From the point of view of exploiting children as sales-droids for a large corporation...this is a lot less defensible. Not sure what else to add on that note.

There's also the 'promoting poor eating choices' aspect...well, is there a 'healthier' alternative? Most fast food restaurants are about the same health-wise, if I'm not mistaken.

snowy

In this day and age, schools have to do anything and everything to raise funds. At least your school has a willing partner in McDonalds. Would you rather take your daughter to McDonalds for a Happy Meal or buy five rolls of wrapping paper or subscribe to three magazines? Really, I think this is one of the easiest fundraisers for parents to participate in that I've seen.

Furthermore, McDonalds has changed its ways a lot when it comes to feeding children. All McDonalds ads that pander to children now feature the healthy options in the Happy Meal--the Apple Dippers instead of fries, Chicken McNuggets, and milk instead of a soda. A child can eat a well-rounded meal at the Golden Arches these days.

Your argument is ridiculous in that a single meal from McDonalds won't hurt anyone--and denying your school this fundraising opportunity will. I think you should do a lot more research into this before you go spouting off at the PTA meeting and come up with a better argument than "McDonalds will give our kids Type II diabetes" and "Your kids will become part of a fast food nation." The latter is really up to parents to discuss and decide.

If there's no room for corporate influence in schools, then urge your locality and state to fund schools adequately so that PTAs don't NEED to do this kind of fundraising. Even though this is a PTA sponsored and organized fundraiser, I would guess that the majority of the money goes to pay for school activities and so on that were once givens, such as field trips. As much as it sucks, if we want to offer anything outside of the general curriculum to our students (the general curriculum, and what it entails, obviously varies widely from place to place), we have to fundraise to be able to provide those opportunities for all students. Here, most of our fundraising focuses on providing extra money for the arts and music, additional materials for science classes, and scholarships for field trips. Perhaps your real argument should focus on how relying on PTAs for fundraising creates an uneven playing field between schools, depending on the activity level of the given PTA.

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robot_parade

Oh, another thought - how hard is it to just donate cash-money to your PTA. A constructive suggestion you could make is to include "If you'd rather just make a cash donation, then..." on the flyer they send for this (if any) or other PTA correspondence. When our kids were in school, I don't think I would've known how to simply donate to the PTA outside of a specific fundraiser.

levite

On the one hand, I have to agree with you that it's disgusting that PTAs have to get in bed with McEvil to raise funds.

On the other hand, as we sow, so we shall reap. We don't give jack shit money to education in this country, and we let our schools be run by fuckwit bureaucrats instead of by teachers. Result: crap-ass educational institutions that are perpetually in need of money, and thus are willing to do anything, up to and including suckling at the greasy hind teat of Rainforest McDestruction, Inc.

We kind of have no one to blame but ourselves for the bind that our kids are in.

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Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
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Slims

I suppose that by encouraging your child to eat at McDonalds in an educational setting they are taking responsibility for her future weight issues?

I am all for personal freedom and I don't assign any responsibility to McDonalds for trying to market. However, the school is responsible for their curriculum and what they choose to endorse.

Just as they would probably be held liable for working a fund-raising deal out with ACME super-powerful cherry bombs INC, I don't see much upside to encouraging fast-food consumption.


However, I disagree that all corporate influence and presence is bad...I believe Corporations are often symbols of excellence and professionalism and absolutely set a positive example for students.

For example, my elementary school was sponsored by EDS which provided computers (back when that was a big deal), books, mentors, etc. This relationship continued in some form or fashion through the local high schools. They provided positive role models who were also successful people, which is something the public school system is rarely able to provide.

What did EDS want out of the relationship? To encourage students to consider majoring in a science/engineering degree by providing access to the resources necessary to do so, and to then consider working for EDS.

In my opinion it was win-win, and it did not rely on the fall-back of parental responsibility.....Worst case children who were given whatever they wanted by their parents got computer science degrees and a good job. Worst case with McDonalds and the kid has a coronary before he is twenty.



In general I think PTA's would be far better served by using their time to lobby the local school board to enforce uncompromising standards, accountability, competition and excellence. We often refuse to recognize that in every competition (to include life, school, etc.) there must necessarily be losers. The solution is often to force those who are able to move at the pace of those who are not, and it needs to stop.

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Plan9

What organization sponsorship would be acceptable, Herk? McDonalds is evil... so what would you have preferred? Subway, maybe?

...

American schools are broke(n) in so many ways. They're not above "selling out" to accomplish their goals.

...

Every time I read the thread title I think about rioting.

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

FuglyStick

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uncle phil

that better, you two?

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Craven Morehead

Take the $8 you would spend on your meals at McD and donate it directly to the PTA. That would far exceed the 20% of their profit.

I'm sure McDs came to the PTA and offered this program to them as a way to raise some additional funds. Your PTA doesn't have to do much except get the word out. Now you do the same. Take the energy that you've got invested in this and use it for a fund raising campaign. One that involves students so they can grow as a side benefit. No middle man, just parents and students raising cash for the PTA. Best of all worlds.

Herk

In my mind there is no begging when you are requesting funding for school activities. That either party would feel that way is strange to me, but I suppose that may be true. My daughter has recently stopped participating in Girl Scouts for that reason among a few others. I would replace this method of fundraising one of two ways. Increase taxes to appropriately fund the school or develop a number that is required to fund the gap, and keep a running tally showing the parents of students the amount that remained to be donated.

Each time my daughter brings home a sales fundraiser, I promptly write a check for $100 dollars and send it back in the envelope the next day. That way the school gets all the money. When she said brought home a permission slip for a pizza party that also said to please donate $5 to cover it and more if you could help for the kids that didn't have money, I sent back $30. I understand everybody cannot donate the same, but as long as some of us are going to subsidize that either way(by donating more or being the parents to take our children to McD's), why is it better to bring any fast food restaurant into the picture?

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-Blind faith runs into things!-

Plan9

Huh. It's almost as if these community organizations need a corporate sugardaddy to get anything done, even if it's just playing with (and taking from) their own pool of money. They want Almighty Leadership. You couldn't get these parents to fork over $20 for the PTA at a meeting, but they'll glad drop stacks at some burger bash so that their $20 turns into $12 for the school and $8 for Ronald McDonald. Kinda funny, kinda sad.

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Herk

How does child prostitution for school funds sit with you? I point out the extreme to make the point. My argument isn't that fundraising is bad, it is that some fundraising is bad, and, in this case, I have drawn the line differently than the PTA.

That is one smart corporation. I wonder how many kids are begging their parents for the apple dippers. You think McD's is trying to do a favor for our kids. I'm sure that play place is just for their exercise after the meal right?

I didn't intend to make that argument, but as long as you did... you realize that one hit of crack probably won't hurt you either? I'm not headed to deny fundraising again, I just think there is a line between appropriate and inappropriate, that's all.

This is part of my research. I'm sorry that it is insufficient, but the reason I came to my favorite conversation grounds is because my research is insufficient. As far as the latter being up to the parents, I could not agree more, hence the entirety of this argument.

Yes, I will. Please everybody else, do the same.

You are right. That is a great point. I just doesn't happen to be what I'm discussing tonight.

__________________
-Blind faith runs into things!-

Redlemon

In the last fundraiser from my son's elementary school, they actually had a note suggesting a direct donation if you didn't want to purchase any of the wrapping paper or chocolate covered nuts. We were more than happy to do so.

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Herk

I'm certainly not saying that. I'm not sure I understand the question mark. People's weight issues are the product of many things, not the least of which is the diets at school.

I cannot vouch for credibility here. I haven't verified these facts, but here is an interesting paragraph from McDonald's in hospitals and schools? - Healthy at 100 ::: by John Robbins

"Every day more fast-food outlets are taking over school food service programs, selling their greasy junk food in the very places that should be devoted to the care and nurturing of young people. More than 4,500 U.S. schools today serve Taco Bell products. The American School Food Service says that more than 30 percent of public high schools now sell name-brand fast food. Schools do this because they make more money from it than they would operating their own food services. "

I might even rip that off.

Okay, I've changed my position a little. I think you are right, but I still think McD's is on the other side of that line.

---------- Post added at 09:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:15 AM ----------

Here is an interesting paragraph from MSC: Subject McDONALD'S AND SCHOOLS

"In the witness box during the mammoth 'McLibel' trial (which ended last year) the Corporation's Head of Marketing from Chicago admitted that children were 'virgin ground as far as marketing is concerned', and agreed that community and charitable activity was 'a benefit to the company', and 'good business' which gained 'free publicity'. He related how educational promotions in schools 'generate better feelings towards McDonald's' and lead to more 'patronage'. Their UK Marketing chief stated 'It is our [general] objective to dominate the communications arena...because we are competing for a share of the customer's mind.' "

---------- Post added at 09:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:17 AM ----------

No doubt. I say, sell out as much as necessary; the school and parents that is. Just don't sell out the kids. Having the teachers and parents volunteer there to generate some funds is great. Why must we ask the kids to go?

---------- Post added at 09:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:19 AM ----------

Okay, I should probably do this. I'm thinking community game of tag with homemade snacks for sale and a donation station. Hopefully I can come up with a better idea.

__________________
-Blind faith runs into things!-

Borla

Of all the battles to pick, I hardly think protesting a fundraiser through McDonald's is the one a regular customer of McDonalds should choose.

If you were morally against all fast food, and never indulged yourself because of health reasons, I could see the argument. But since you admit to regularly eating there, why not have one of your trips also benefit your child's school?

To me that's the bottom line. You eat McDonald's anyway. I'm guessing you feed your child McDonald's also if you eat there. Why fight against having some of the money you already spend there going towards a local school?

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Herk

This isn't for the sake of battling McDonald's. I'm trying to ensure that my child and the other children of publicly funded schools are treated appropriately and that their wellbeing is being taken into consideration. I regularly do a lot of things that have no business in school. I don't see the correlation. Should a person who regularly practices religion allow its introduction in public school?
To me, your logic is very strange. What I do for myself and my child does not indicate what I think is appropriate for school. I'd love if the proceeds from my convenient stops at McD's for lunch on the road went to my local school. That isn't the point.

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girldetective

I hate corporate sponsorship.

However, be happy with 20%. Ethos (Starbucks' water) gives only what? 3-5% of sales to the thristy in Africa?!

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kutulu

I agree 100% Herk. I wonder how much money actually goes to the school. I doubt it is more than a couple hundred dollars.

Iliftrocks

My experience with PTA's is very little money raised there goes to the kids. I keep hearing about sending PTA members on trips and conventions, very little about helping the school. I have been disgusted at this.

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Herk

Thank you. According to the PTA president.

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-Blind faith runs into things!-

Borla

I think it's very strange to fight against something that a) you personally choose to do of your own free will anyway and b) financially aids your own child and his/her schoolmates. It's not like exposing them to McDonald's is some horrific thing that they all don't regularly experience regardless.


But then again, I'm involved in many corporate affairs that raise substantial amounts of money for such things as cancer research and community outreach programs, annually participating in events that raise over a million dollars that go 100% to charity with all overhead costs donated free of charge. It helps me realize that "corporate sponsored" doesn't mean "evil" all of the time, and that every time people choose to fight against such things it just makes it all that much less attractive for big donors to keep giving.

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Herk

Eating at McDonald's is not what I'm referring to. Again, do not a lot of people choose to, of free will, practice religion? Does religion belong in public schools? It does not financially benefit the students to give 80% of your donation to McDonald's and the other 20% to the PTA.

Right which is exactly why above I say that I somewhat revised my viewpoint on this above. "corporate sponsorship" does mean "evil" when it is using children for profit at the cost of their wellbeing I think. Otherwise congratulations on all your efforts that raised millions. Maybe you can tell us more about them.

__________________
-Blind faith runs into things!-

Borla

Religion is a hot point of debate. Virtually everyone recognizes that it is on the short list of taboo topics for light social conversation, and merely bringing it up is considered rude in many circles. There is great disagreement between believers and non-believers, and even between various beliefs among those who have them. We even have laws about separation of church and state.

Fast food is hardly in that catagory. Quite a few schools even have fast food franchises in them nowadays, or at least catering to them.




What it boils down to is that most people won't give unless given a cause, reason, or event to draw their attention to the need. I'll agree with you all day if you want to argue that that is a problem, and people should be willing to give to causes they believe in. I applaud you if you are handing out $100 every time your school wants your child to be involved in a fundraiser. Reality is that the vast majority of people do not do that, but will throw a few dollars down here and there for school fundraisers that give them some type of product in exchange, be it wrapping paper, candy, McDonald's food, or whatever else they are selling these days.

Getting a few hundred bucks in exchange for giving some positive publicity to a local business (and maybe even putting a few bucks in the pocket of the business) is better than getting nothing and patronizing the establishment anyway.

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Herk

Well, I understand religion is a hot topic, which is precisely why I use it as the example that there is a line to be drawn. That way instead of acting like it is silly to draw that line, we can discuss where it ought to be drawn. If we were actually referring to a genuinely local business, like a ma and pa restaurant that was doing this specifically to benefit the school and community, things might be different.

See, to you it is "a few hundred bucks in exchange for giving some positive publicity to a local business." To me the few hundred bucks isn't the only thing gained. I think a large part of the problem is that a lot of people don't see that this sets examples for kids(McD's is good, money is more important than health, it is okay to give up 4/5 of your donation to satiate people's need not to ask for help - among others) in addition to yielding a few dollars. McD's doesn't need us giving them positive publicity and it isn't a local business.

Fast food franchises being in school is not a good thing. Sure, it does in fact save the school some money, but at what cost? Dollars are not the only thing to be taken into account.

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-Blind faith runs into things!-

Borla

Actually, a huge number of McDonald's ARE local businesses, as they are franchises owned by local business people who pay to use the McDonald's brand. Not to mention the local people employed, local taxes paid, and local economy stimulated.


And parents who take their kids to McDonalds for any occasion are already teaching them that McDonald's is good and money is more important than health.

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Herk

Ok, you equate franchises with ma and pa community based companies. Perhaps you missed where "the Corporation's Head of Marketing from Chicago admitted that children were 'virgin ground as far as marketing is concerned'." A small, community based company does not have the same branding influence of a huge corporation and likewise its influence on children. I feel like I'm actually arguing with their marketing director.

I don't see why you refuse to see the difference between a parents decision and a publicly funded organizations decision on behalf of somebody else's child. Again reference the perfectly analogous question of religion. I might allow my child a sip of my scotch to gain an experience in life, but you can bet your bottom dollar that I'd be pissed if a public school did the same.

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spindles

How many of the parents *already* take their kids to Maccas? I suspect it is more than half. Why not turn that current patronage into extra cash for the school?

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Borla

I didn't say "ma and pa" places, you did. I merely said they are often locally owned, and help the local economy. And to compare religion in schools to taking kids to McDonalds, or giving a child a Happy Meal to giving them alcohol illegally w/o parents' permission? Quite the leap in logic.

I think the next battle to vociferously argue should be the horrors of Pizza Hut's Book It program, and the awful association between reading and pizza.

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Charlatan

I have to commend the PTA and McDonald's for coming up with a creative twist on the old, buy some chocolate bars or wrapping paper fund raising schemes.

What I want to understand better, is this a fund raiser for the PTA to support social events or is it a fund raiser to support the school's budget? If it is the former, it's not all that bad. If it's the latter, this is not a good solution.

School funding should not come from sources such as these. Schools should be properly funded to start with.

In the grand scheme of things, would I rather not see McDonald's or other fast/junk food merchants in bed with out schools? Absolutely not. But what is the difference between selling chocolate bars door to door and McDonald's? Not a heck of a lot.

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highthief

I fully agree with you Herk. There is a movement afoot here in Ontario to remove/limit anything to do with junk food in our primary schools. I don't think McDs is evil - and we occasionally eat there - but I would not want to see it mixed into the school in any formal way.

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Herk

Borla, I've made it clear why the religion analogy applies. Your refusal to see the obvious corollary is not my problem. $10 and $10000000 are very different quantitatively, but they both are measure of the same thing, dollars. The question is, what is appropriate or not for the school to involve students in. Very simple.

Spindles, if it were based on trips that were already made, my child wouldn't be asking me to take her, we'd already be going. If McDonald's were just donating the money based on regular patronage that would be great. The idea is that they are trying to get additional people to come that otherwise may not have in addition to having people work at little cost to them to further increase the margins. They did the same thing by paying school districts to let them advertise on report cards in Florida... bu but it makes the school a little money.

Ultimately, because my life required me to be otherwise occupied tonight and the PTA president never confirmed me on the agenda, I wasn't able to attend. She sent me an email after that essentially said that there were tons of proponents disappointed by my absence because they were just dying to defend McDonald's, too. It amazes me how many people are so much more interested in protecting the wellbeing of corporations over the health and intelligence of their children.

I don't see why we don't donate equal time to getting the teachers and parents together to instruct students and interested parents how to cook a meal from scratch. Then charge them for the meal. How uncanny, to set a good example, scrape the other 80% of revenue minus overhead, and care about your child's health all at the same time.

Thank you all for your input and the discussion.

---------- Post added at 10:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:55 PM ----------

Thank you. That sums up how I feel quite nicely.

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-Blind faith runs into things!-

Punk.of.Ages

I fail to see the difference from the school promoting it and the parent promoting it. Furthermore, whether you like it or not, McDonald's spends millions of dollars to promote themselves and it works quite well. Millions of people are eating at McDonald's. As long as they're eating there anyway, why not have some of the money spent donated to a school?

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Herk

It is absolutely mind bending that so many people think that a school should have the same decision making power as a parent. Again, please answer yes or no. Is it okay for a school to promote religion? Just because it is okay for a parent to promote it doesn't make it ok for the school to promote it. Another binary question; do you think McDonald's does this with no interest for profit and just for the interest of the community? If so, read above where their marketing director says otherwise.

They aren't eating there anyway. If they were McD's would just donate the money, but that wouldn't earn them extra cash, so they need the kids to come home and ask to go to McD's.

I'm aware marketing works well. I don't like it, but I don't mind it. What I do mind is a public organization promoting it to our youth. They are doing well; so well in fact that several people are willing to call its solicitation of children in public schools defensible.

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-Blind faith runs into things!-

Punk.of.Ages

It's mind bending to me that you can't see the religion argument is an apple when we're trying to discuss oranges. Religion isn't pushed onto children by schools because it is something fundamental to the core of most familial institutions, and schools have no business being in something that deep and complicated.

McDonald's is not deep and complicated. I'd wager at least 50-60% of the children at your child's school already eat at McDonald's at an unhealthy rate. These people are probably not going to tip some health scale from one more meal they may or may not have had at McDonald's otherwise. The people who don't eat at McDonald's at an unhealthy rate (as mentioned earlier) aren't going to all of a sudden become unhealthy because of one meal if they decide to take their business there and participate.

I see what you're saying here, but it just seems like you're sensationalizing it a bit. When most people are eating at McDonald's anyway, it seems to me that the school's making a good deal in getting some of that money coming their way. Of course McDonald's is doing it for profit, but at least they're sharing that profit.

__________________
"The fact is that censorship always defeats its own purpose, for it creates, in the end, the kind of society that is incapable of exercising real discretion..." - Henry Steel Commager

"Punk rock music is great music played by really bad, drunk musicians." -Fat Mike

Charlatan

To be clear, I think promoting McDonald's in schools is the same as promoting Coke or Pepsi in schools. It isn't a good thing. We might as well be promoting cigarette smoking.

That said, I also see a difference between the PTA raising money and the school raising money.

__________________
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- Old Man Luedecke

amonkie

If you're still planning to visit the PTA, you will have a lot more credibility if you avoid the sweeping overgeneralizations that will get picked apart, and no one will be paying attention to the heart of the issue.

Fundraising is hard work. Its easy to be the one to write the check, but have you ever been on the other side of the coin trying to promote fundraisers? From a Time in -money out standpoint, these types of "visit and 20% donation" are about as effort free for the schools. The cost to them is minimal to spread by word of mouth and paper flyers. If the result of $422 is good money to them for the amount of effort to put in, good for them. I've sold my share of candy bars, wrapping paper, etc and I would say the time input for those compared to the sales volume was miserable.

When our band participated in such fundraisers, it was local non chain restaurants that would offer it for an evening 4 times a year. It actually was the restaurants way of being able to show solidarity, especially because they were right across from the high school.

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Herk

Interesting. What I am suggesting is that there is a line that exists between things that are appropriate and inappropriate for schools to participate it. It seems like you agree here. Analogy worked. It sounds like you are suggesting that the line is drawn at "deep and complicated". My comparison is intentionally extreme. My point is quite simple. In a public school situation, appropriate vs. inappropriate is a binary system. Everything exists on one side or the other. My argument is that McD's is on a different side than, apparently, many people feel, which honestly comes as a surprise.

I'd wager that greater than those percentages already practice religion, and I'd even give you odds, but the argument that "everybody is already doing it" is unimportant; the question is what defines appropriate, not how many people are already ok with it.

When most people are practicing religion anyway...


---------- Post added at 08:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:31 AM ----------

I'm sure that you are correct here. This is the primary reason I am joining the PTA. Surely not to raise hell. My daughter's interest is at hand. I want to understand how this system works and what service it provides.


amonkie, that's great. I like the local restaurant idea, I think, but I admit I still don't understand how to draw the line. I know fundraising is a pain. I have been on the other side, I am more pleased with adults giving additional effort than exploiting children to save them the effort.

I make the generalization to boil the issue down, not inflame it intentionally. My aim is to make the point that there is no need to discuss whether or not things can be appropriate or not, but how to determine which is which. Whether or not it generates funds is not the only thing to take into account. There is an overall risk/benefit ratio that needs to be taken into account. In my opinion, in the McDonald's situation, the risk substantially outweighs the $422.

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-Blind faith runs into things!-

dippin

there is no parallel between a pta raising money through mcdonalds and a school promoting religion. The reason religion is kept out of public schools is because schooling is mandatory, and funded through tax payers' money. That money shouldnt be used to promote a religion to kids who have to be there.

The PTA fund raiser, on the other hand, is a voluntary fund raising event. No one needs to eat at mcdonalds and it doesn't cost the taxpayer anything.

Amonkie is right. I would take a different approach in arguing this.

Herk

Okay, well I can only draw the parallel so many times before the concrete wall starts to hurt my forehead. I've already resigned that there is a difference between PTA funding and school funding. I failed to see that clearly at first. It doesn't change that they are both still either inappropriate or appropriate<-- there is that parallel again, or is one of them neither of those?

To clarify, people seem to think that my daughter came home from a PTA meeting and asked to go to McDonald's. She didn't. She came home from public school and claimed we needed to go to McDonald's. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that my daughter came home from school suggesting that there was voluntary prostitution that evening where the pimp was only going to keep 80% of the girls' money and the rest went to field trips(I'm am using an extreme here again intentionally to draw a clear dichotomy between appropriate vs. inappropriate). In this case, if revenue generated is the ONLY thing taken into account, it is perfectly acceptable. Surely we can agree though that this falls under the 'inappropriate' category. This indicates that we likely agree that there are other variables to account for in the risk/benefit analysis than dollars.

Again; can we stop acting like there is no line to be drawn and start talking about where the line should be drawn?

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-Blind faith runs into things!-