Bill O'Rights

A topic was brought up in another thread that I wanted to discuss in a broader depth than that thread would have allowed. Therefore, to preclude a major threadjack, I have started this thread to further that discussion.
In the "Trends you hate" thread, one of the trends brought up was illiteracy. Now, I took that to mean intentional illiteracy. You know, those idiots that think that it's so cool to be, look and act stupid. Which, reminded me of the marked lack of basic manners.
Warrrreagl responded:
Warrrreagl is not wrong. My own Floridian born and bred mother still says "Yes Ma'am" and "No Ma'am", when conversing with my grandmother. I have also seen it, to a somewhat lesser extent, with my cousins, that still reside in Florida. Now, I joke around with my friend, Warrreagl, all the time about his southern heritage. (Sorry, warrrreagl...southron. Didn't want to lose you there.) I do this, and he knows this, in good natured fun. But, one thing that I have never joked about, and he'll back this up, I'm sure, is southern manners. I have always been impressed by southern manners.

Back in the Neolithic, I was a Boy Scout. We always refered to our leaders as Mr. This, or Mr. That. Flash forward 40 years. My own son is a Cub Scout. Early on, I pulled his Den Leader aside, after a meeting, and inquired as to why he had the boys call him by his first name. He was taken aback as it had not occurred to him to have the boys refer to him in a respectful manner. I volunteered to serve a uniformed position in my son's Cub Scout Pack. I was giving a demonstration on flag etiquette. All of the boys refer to me as Mr. O'Rights, as this was what they were now being taught. My son's best friend, Henry, is also in the Cub Scouts. He also happens to be our neighbor. He is always over at my house. He refers to me as "Bill", when he is playing at my house. When he started to do this in a Cub Scout meeting, I had to pull him aside and inform him to call me Mr. O'Rights at Cub Scouts. He had to be taught.

When, exactly, did we, as a society, lose the basic skill set of manners? Why is it considered cool to be rude and disrespectful? If anything good has ever come out of the south, it is proper manners. Why can't we emulate some of that? Maybe if we could do that, they wouldn't be so damned pissy about Appomattox. (Yeah, that was directed at you, Warrrreagl. )

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Plan9

We're very egalitarian today: everybody is disrespectful.

Society: "I'm okay, you're okay."

Authority figures: "But we're friends!"

Supervisors: "How does that make you feel?"

Parents: "I'm your buddy."

Drill Sergeants: "I'm sensitive to your needs."

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FuglyStick

Somewhere, at some time, "manners" and "being polite" became synonymous with "weakness."

I did not have that problem, as I got my butt whipped when I was disrespectful as a child, and the Army taught me that it was a good idea to address people as "sir" or "ma'am."

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Glory's Sun

I'm going to call major bullshit on the south argument. I don't care if people say "thank you" "yes ma'am" etc.. that doesn't necessarily denote manners. My experiences in the south is that people are so concerned with what other people are doing instead of themselves that rumors fly with more frequency than the jets at Seymour.

Then of course we have the whole guns, god and government crowd. If someone dares say they don't believe in god or they support a democratic president and they are white.. well that person is just scum and doesn't know how bad they are and they should repent or they'll die in a fiery hell. God doesn't support niggers in office and especially those who aren't really from America to begin with I see more bigotry and ignorance in the south than other regions and the archaic ideals that pervade the societal boundaries here show more lack of manners than a simple "Yes Ma'am" can cover up.

So personally, I'd much rather have people and children not use thank you and other "manner" identifiers if they would just focus on their own goddamn problems and quit meddling in other people's business. I'd rather some kid say "gimme that" than have to deal with the over abundance of bigotry that resides here in the south. Bigotry certainly lives in other regions, but I can say with full confidence that it's not as rampant as it is in the south.. and I really fail to see how bigotry combined with racism equals a more mannered society.

ShaniFaye

At least it wasnt directed at me lol When Sherman came thru all he left us with was our Manners.

I am and have always been a stickler about this with Amanda...not AS bad as my parents, I'm 41 and God help me if I forget to say Sir to my Daddy lol

I do not see what is "wrong" with yes/no ma'am/sir and calling someone Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms

but...since we live in a generation of "I'm not going to respect you until you EARN it" it doesnt surprise me that things like this are falling by the wayside.

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Bill O'Rights

Well, to be fair, I think that you're going to find pockets of the population that hold that attitude in every region, not just the south. And, didn't Obama, when he was campaigning, refer to rural Pennsylvanians (I was one, once upon a time) as "Bitter Americans, clinging to guns and religion"?
Even "Uncle Billy" saw the value in your manners. Not so much anything else that would burn.
And, there it is. You are correct. Way back when I was growing up, we respected an individual until they lost that respect. I think that I liked it better that way.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

Glory's Sun

well if you notice.. I qualified my statement by saying that it is everywhere, it's just not as pervasive as it is here. and calling a rural community as you see it is much different than lumping a whole sublet of society under a racial slur. Bitter Americans is a broad stroke that can encompass all genders and races.. nigger is not. I can't tell you how many times I hear that thrown around here by older generation white males and females in a not "trying to be cool white boy" way. When I see kids following in the footsteps and they are confused it makes me wonder how the south even exists anymore. Farmer Brown makes fun of the Mexicans that are tending his fields while his lazy ass sits in a truck all day, and his son is blasting rap music in his jacked up truck and then gets out and says that the Mexicans will outwork niggers anyday. Yeah that's a whole lot of good manners going around

I wasn't even really trying to get into the racial argument as that's not what the thread is about. My whole point is that while southern people may still say silly things like yes ma'am and thank you etc.. it doesn't mean that the south is more mannerly than anywhere else. It's really all in how you look at things. If a simple phrase makes a place nicer to live and a person can ignore the glaring hypocrisy, then by all means, live there and enjoy yourself. However, to call it more mannerly just seems a bit pedantic to me.

FuglyStick

Just as "please" and "thank you" won't gloss over civil improprieties, an open mind on civil issues will not earn a pass on being a douchebag, and may yet earn a backhand.

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Baraka_Guru

There are a bunch of little things I notice when it comes to a lack of manners.

For one, it used to be generally accepted that wearing a hat indoors is rude. Some people wear them at the dinner table.

(For the record, I remove my hat while indoors.)

There's a long list of other things I could go into, but now is not the time.

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Glory's Sun

why should a person automatically "respect" an elder person and say mannerly things? does a persons age automatically put them into a higher class of individual that is respected higher than another human being? does the fact that most older generations demand respect not reek of a lack of respect and manner in itself?

If I don't know you, why should I show respect just because of age or title, especially if no respect is shown to me? You could be a serial rapist in your spare time.. should I respect you still?

I was raised to say all the nice mannerly things that every child learns. I was told it was the polite thing to do. However, I fail to see the reasonings behind it. I'm human, you're human.. you get what you give. If you're some asshole who thinks that you're my elder and I should automatically respect you because your parents fucked a few years prior to mine.. well that's a bit odd in my book.

I'm trying to say this a different way.. and it's not coming out how I intend it to.. I'll blame it on the cold medicines and hope that someone else can clarify my stance a little better.

Baraka_Guru

gucci, have you ever heard of giving someone the benefit of the doubt?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

FuglyStick

The difference, Gucci, is that people of manners treat respect as something offered, and then lost, if the receiving party doesn't deserve it. Your stance is to respect no one, unless you have reason to, and is a prime example as to why civility is such a rare trait anymore.

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warrrreagl

Bill, you made my whole day. Pissy about Appomattox? Why, I never...There's an old joke down here that we could have whipped the Yankees with cornstalks. The only problem was, we couldn't convince them to fight that way.

I remembered when I was in first grade that we had little cardboard clouds hanging from the ceiling, and each cloud had a phrase printed on it. Not, "yes" or "no" or "please." These clouds all said, "Yes, sir" and "No, sir," and "Please, ma'am." If ANY woman walked up to you and asked a question, you had better not dare simply say "No," because you were guaranteed to get a stern glare accompanied by the follow-up question, "No, what?" And the only acceptable answer was, "No, ma'am." Today in the South, we routinely curse the Yankees, but not for the Civil War. We curse them for bringing us soccer, and for expecting us to abandon training in good manners, because it somehow offends them.

Once I got sarted, I couldn't stop. So this is more than you ever wanted to know about the role of good manners in the South.

Manners and etiquette are a way of life in the Deep South, and it is not specific or proprietary to any particular race or socio-economic class. Rich and poor whites and rich and poor blacks are all taught how “to act” in the South. There is a saying in the South that you never know who is watching, and it is very true. Your livelihood could depend on how you act or behave in an unrelated situation from your observer. People have lost promotions, spouses, jobs, etc., because somebody somewhere saw them do something to indicate that they “weren’t raised right.” It is truly a big deal. Employers need to know that a trusted manager won’t decide to pick his teeth while entertaining potential clients for lunch. People who were raised right will know not to do this, but a boss can’t be sure if some other tacky clod will be trustworthy when the time comes. Therefore, your whole career in the South could be in jeopardy and you wouldn’t even realize it was all because one day in the Post Office your boss saw you go through the door while ignoring a lady with an armload of packages. It really is that simple. You never know who is watching you.

Here’s another example: a few months ago, Grancey and I were watching David Letterman and his guest was Reese Witherspoon (from Tennessee). She strode out very gracefully in a stunning black party dress, and she slightly tucked her hem while sitting down and made sure her legs were crossed properly (right ankle over the left and pulled back underneath). She was a vision of elegance. My wife simply said, “You can tell she was raised right.” And that said it all. You don’t have to go to charm school in the South to know how to do these things - you just wake up and your mama starts training you early on. There’s a very good reason why most of the winners in national beauty contests come from the South – they’ve been essentially training for it every day of their entire lives. Every little Southern girl has.

Also, I often hear people refer to “good old boys” in a negative connotation, but it means something different in the South. To a Southerner, a “good old boy” is someone who always holds the door open for ladies, always says “ma’am” and “sir,” always knows not to take the last item from a plate of food, and knows not to ever extend his hand to a lady when introduced.

Etiquette and Good Manners - what they mean in the South:

Men's Wedding Clothing - You'd better believe that Southern women know all about who is supposed to wear what at various formalities of weddings. And there's always somebody's grandmother or aunt who will definitely be the final authority. Now the men may not know what to wear, but why should they? There will always be a woman to make sure they're wearing the correct tux. All of these considerations go into the planning stages of a Southern wedding, and I'm fairly sure that Southern women would drop dead from horror if someone wore the wrong thing to a wedding. Plus, a scourge would be passed onto their entire families, and the "wedding disaster" would be talked about for generations. You think I'm kidding.

Opening the Door - My father slapped me in the back of the head whenever I missed an opportunity to open a door for a lady, so it is more of a self-preservation reflex than anything else. I know that I'm almost 50 and he's over 200 miles away, but he raised me to do that, and so I do. Always, wherever I go, and no matter who it is. Remember, "You never know who is watching you," and although my father might not be around, SOMEbody's father is.

Writing "Thank You" Notes - Oh yes, I have done my fair share of those. Graduation presents, wedding presents, birthday presents, staying overnight at someone's home, going to someone's party, etc. Believe me, you don't want to be the person in the South who doesn't write "thank you" notes, because everyone will know about it, and little pleasantries and niceties will start drying up around you. You will find yourself without presents or party invitations very quickly.

Asking for Gifts - Although the gift registry has taken over, the nicer Southern families still do not do it, because it's - well - tacky. The major glaring exception would be to register a particular dinnerware pattern. That just makes sense.

Leaving at the Right Time - This is definitely still observed in the South. You never leave a party before the guest of honor, and once that person leaves, it’s time for everybody to go.

Arriving on Time - Yes, yes, and yes. There is no such thing as “fashionably late” in the South – it’s considered rude. If you showed up 15 minutes late to dinner at my parents’ house, you got to eat all alone in a separate room from everybody else.

Dinner - The rules of dinner go on and on. No reading at the table, left hand folded on the napkin in the lap while eating only with the right hand, etc. Southern families still eat together unless they're one of those new breeds that allow the children to dictate everything.

Parental Unity - Although I don't remember my folks being ridiculously strict, they were definitely always on the same page when it came to raising us. They never contradicted each other in front of us, and always presented a unified front, because that's what parents are supposed to do.

Friendliness on the Street - Southerners routinely call out to everyone they see (friend or total stranger), and it usually gets us some odd looks when we travel. But in the South, if you DON’T call out in a friendly fashion to everybody, they’ll think something is wrong.

Money – A good Southerner never borrows money from a lady, never discusses money (or the value of possessions) in public, or name-drops about rich people. One of the interesting things about the South is that wealth doesn't always involve money. Southern families are considered wealthy if their family name is an old and respected one. They may own land. They may hold a respected political position (judge, especially), or they may have an ancestor who did. They may have veteran military officers in the family (there's some truth to that old joke about everybody in the South being a "colonel"). There's also a BIG difference between "old money" and "new money." If your family money comes from a couple of generations back, then it's "old money," and its status will never expire. However, if your family has only recently come into money, you may be ostracized as "new money" depending on how you behave, or (as my mother-in-law put it) the “nouveau riche." New money people are never fully accepted on the inside, and someone with a smaller bank account but with "old money" will always be accepted first. You have to earn your way.

As many of you may remember, Grancey and I have a Yankee Bitch sister-in-law, and her daughter is our 19 year old niece. My mother-in-law (my niece’s grandmother) tried desperately to see to it that her granddaughter was "raised right," but the Yankee Bitch always scoffed and ridiculed her for it. She actively blocked any kind of instruction in etiquette or manners, and it horrified my poor mother-in-law. My wife tried to help out, too, but was always sneered at for trying. Now, that precious little girl is 19 and in college, and she is SO FREAKIN LOST that it is pathetic. All around her are girls who were raised right, and they own the right clothes for the right occasion and they know how to behave in certain social settings, and my miserable niece is dead in the water. NOW her Yankee Bitch mother suddenly wants help - she wants my wife to help the kid get a job. However, Grancey refuses to help out now for several reasons. First of all, the time for the kid to start warming up to my wife passed by about 17 years ago. It's too late to suddenly turn on what she thinks passes for charm. And secondly, my wife doesn't dare risk her own reputation with important people around town by dumping such a wretched excuse for a Southern girl on them. My niece would be the one to pick her teeth and belch during a luncheon, and that would reflect badly back on my wife.

See how it works?

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thirdsun

Being born and raised in the South in the 60s, I can definitely relate to the whole "yes'sir, no'sir, ma'am, and referring to adults as Mr. Lastname, etc. It was a matter of respectfulness and politeness I was taught and expected to follow as a child. If I didn't, I got punished for it. It is so ingrained in my psyche now that when addressing men and women a generation or more older than me, I still use it unless that person specifically tells me to use their first name.

My niece and her husband are teaching their three boys the same "respectfulness" manners. But I've been around many other children in the course of being around my extended family, Sunday schools, and school functions to know that it's just not being taught or as strictly enforced in as widespread a fashion as it might've been 40 or more years ago.

And referring back to the OP, there is definitely a trend I've seen over the last 30 years in all types of manners that simply aren't being taught and/or enforced anymore.

For example:

* business manners (returning a phone call in timely fashion, customer service, etc.)
* traffic manners (letting people merge)
* table manners (eating with mouth open; talking with mouth full)
* crowd manners (not staring at people, breaking line)
* conversation manners (not interrupting, talking too loud)

And more importantly, there are no consequences for being rude...no enforcement.

I also tend to think that the depersonalization and isolation of email, cars, and cell phones has made people less sensitive to being mindful of and nice to other people.

"Be nice to others" - Doesn't that sound quaint and old-fashioned?

Glory's Sun

I have to admit.. this thread gives me a few good chuckles. It's like I've been warped back in time.. and I have to say it's a sad world when southerner's are the authority on fashion. It's almost like the south has a hard and fast rule book for every area of life. It's mind boggling at best. Life clearly must be more black and white in the south.

The whole "you never know who is watching you" bit.. clearly proves my point that southern people are too concerned with everyone else and can't mind their own fucking business.

Fugly: I get what you're saying.. I mean..for me, I'll be nice and civil to a point, but I'm not going to go out of my way to speak to you and blow rainbows up your ass because it seems the polite thing to do. Civility may be dead.. but I don't know if that's such a bad thing really.

Grancey

This is slightly off the topic of manners and more along the lines of behavior. I have a question for you city-dwellers up north. In the south when encountering someone on the sidewalk or in the post office or anywhere it is acceptable and common practice to smile, speak, nod or catch their eye when doing so. A few years ago I went to New York, and I was warned to never look at or even acknowledge the existence of anyone else around me. This seemed extreme, but I went along with it. So if you live in New York are you afraid of other people? Do you live this way or was I totally misinformed? If it is not fear then what is it?

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FuglyStick

You are certainly under no obligation to respect those who don't deserve it. I'm just saying that you should offer that respect initially; if they choose to squander that respect, then fuck 'em.

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mixedmedia

I agree that manners have declined...right along with respect for the benefits of knowledge and a good liberal arts education, go figure.

But I don't need for kids to call me ma'am to feel respected by them. I think basic graciousness will do just fine.

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Jinn

My problem with this thread is the (necessarily) vague definition of 'manners' in this context. I was raised to be polite, forgiving, honest, open doors, bring gifts when visiting someone's house for the first time, arrive early and leave before my welcome is expended, and to say "Please" and "Thank you" when requesting something for myself or when receiving something from someone.

Those, to me, are necessarily good 'manners' because they relate a very specific benefit to the person on the receiving end. It is nice to be received polititely, forgiven our minor faux pas, have doors opened for you, brought gifts when people first visit you, and to have people not arrive late and not stay past their welcome.

But saying "Sir" and "Ma'am" to me connotes no positive benefit nor any sense of 'manners.' Certainly it is a title of respect, but I personally find more respect being addressed by my first name or <prefix> last name by children, if necessary. But calling me "sir" seems impersonal and even a bit mocking.

Take that for what you will.

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warrrreagl

Jinn, that's the part that intrigues me most. Since the Southern culture is an historically military culture, the saying of "sir" and "ma'am" is an historically integral part of the language. To leave off the "sir" or "ma'am" is like leaving off the verb in the sentence - it just sounds wrong to us to leave it off.

However, to people who weren't taught to do this, it not only sounds wrong to them for someone to say "sir" or "ma'am," it seems to explosively insult them down their most fragile nerve. It seriously seems to piss them off to be addressed as "sir" or "ma'am," and I can't figure that out.

When Natalee Holloway disappeared in Aruba a few years ago, Greta von Sustern interviewed a few of her school friends from Birmingham, and they all addressed her as "ma'am" during their conversations. You could see Greta's blood boiling at being called "ma'am" and she started actively cutting them off so they couldn't say it.

Why? Why does that offend so horribly?

The only other thing that comes to mind along those same lines is opening doors for the ladies. Every now and then, we encounter one of those "enlightened" Yankees down here who gets all pissy and confrontational when we hold a door for her. You just kind of have to roll your eyes and take it when somone reacts that way.

And Grancey is right about her statement - we were given specific instructions for our New York trip on how to NOT be nice to people so we wouldn't offend or scare anybody. I'd love to see what somone thinks as an answer to her question.

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roachboy

i can't for the life of me figure out whether this thread is about politeness (you know, the markers of social distance) or is some peculiar exercise in self-congratulation. you know, "we" maintain "proper" form while you barbarians....well....i need go no further.

first off, alot of this sort of thing functions as a kind of social dialect marker. i'm from eastern new england. folk here are pretty formal in the context of american english, which doesn't have the pronoun-shifts that other languages do for marking social distance. formality creates a space within which forms of etiquettte operate alongside other types of social codes to enable social interactions to flow smoothly.

i wasn't aware of how intricate these codes are--and of the extent to which etiquette is simple one amongst other codes--until i lived in northern california for a few years. there, neither the linguistic nor other social markers of distance operate. one result is that i continually felt that either (a) my space was being violated or, worse (b) that people were instantly trying to be on intimate terms with me--they acted like they knew me but they didn't. they acted as though i should trust them, but there was no reason for it. this happened over and over until i figured out that i was in something like a different social dialect--bigger than a linguistic one because involving a range of social practices that go beyond "sir" and "m'am"--and that i didn't know how to read the codes.

much of what this thread's about, it seems to me, is complaining from folk who are familiar with one set of social codes that enable distance about their inability to read other social codes. because they can't read them, they assume they don't exist. so everyone but themselves of course appears to be rude.

speaking as a new englander, i don't find people here to be particularly rude. i find that they maintain types of distance. i'm used to it. so you know pretty much how well acquainted you are by these conventions of distance. within that, courtesies are as operative here as anywhere else.

i've always found the elaborate courtesies of southerners to be off-putting because there's something about the elaborateness that makes me feel as though i'm being scammed somehow, or being set up to be scammed. but that's because i am not familiar with the rituals, so i make sense of them in terms particular to my own frames of reference.

and that's all that's happening in this thread.
the only difference between what i've said above and what's happening here is that the possibility that this is nothing more than a regionally specific frame of social reference has been excluded and replaced with some general lament about the decline of Civilization.

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mixedmedia

It also bears mentioning that as a 44-year-old southerner myself (from a multi-generational line of Atlantans) who was never taught to use 'sir' and 'ma'am' (nor were any of my friends that I can remember...excepting those that came from religious families perhaps) that there are behaviors and attitudes attributed to Southerners that are not universal truisms. The south isn't all moonlight and magnolias and Colonel Sanders. Much of it is just like anyplace else.

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PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

GreyWolf

This trend has been going on for years. Authority figures were always treated with respect. Manners were taught to you in school and at home. Somehow, we've lost the concept that manners are an obvious sign of respect for someone.

As a child, teachers were ALWAYS Mr., Mrs., or Miss. Flash forward a few years, when I was coaching a middle school basketball team. One day, one of my players walked out of his grade 8 English class to speak to me. I asked him if Thelma (his teacher, who had also taught me grade 8 English, and who was ALWAYS Mrs. Kolding to me!) allowed him to just walk out like that. Fascinated to know her first name, he walked over to the door, stuck his head in and yelled, "Thelma!". She looked up and calmly asked "Yes?". He turned to me and grinned. I would have spent time in the principal's office for such an offense, a mere 5 years earlier. But by then it was accepted.

It is also reflected in North American (well, Canadian) French. The French have a formal mode of speaking, using the pronoun VOUS for a single, respected person. The use of VOUS as a sign of respect is referred to as "vousvoyer-ing" someone. VOUS is also the plural form of you, which in the singular is TU. Using TU to refer to someone is "tutoyer-ing" them, and indicates a MUCH greater degree of familiarity with that person.

My children, whose mother tongue is French, actually do not believe that VOUS can be used in the singular, as a sign of respect. And this is the norm now. The obvious signs of respect are disappearing everywhere and in every language. Japanese and Chinese elders complain of the lack of respect they get from the younger generations.

Somehow, I think this bodes ill for our entire society.

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Bill O'Rights

Why? I mean, if civility helps to make our stay on this shithole of a planet just a little bit nicer...why is that a bad thing?

YYeeeahhh...that's as much my fault, as any one else’s. I got off on a bit of tangent. I never intended for this thread to so heavily dominated by the usage of the titles Sir and Ma'am. Those are, for better or worse, military and regional terms of address. I'm more concerned with basic manners and respect. Although...why is being addressed as "Sir" in any way mocking? Barring, of course, mocking tone inflection.

Frankly, Scarlett, I don't give a damn.
Well, actually, I do. In the sense that I was the one that held the south up as an example of good manners. Gucci and I could argue personal perceptions of the south all day long. That's not why I started this thread. I just wanted to know what ever happened to basic manners and respect. Why are arrogant, loud-mouthed idiots held up as something to be admired, while those of manners and refinement are viewed as something to be scorned?

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"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

Jinn

Have you ever been stopped by a receipt checker at some store who physically walked in front of your cart, restrained it, and addressed you?

The first thing they say is "SIR. I need to check your receipt. SIR. SIR!"

For the most part, though, it's the mocking tone inflection you've so indicated.I ask for something simple, in a calm tone of voice and I get !YES SIR!? How about fuck you, do what I said the first time?

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levite

Without getting into this discussion of the South and its virtues, I will say, on the subject of politeness, that while I agree that we could stand quite a bit more "please" and "thank you," I do not at all care for the frequent or regular use of "sir" or "ma'am." In certain business situations that call for a direct address without introductions, maybe (e.g., "Oh, ma'am, you've forgotten your receipt!"). But not all the time.

My general policy is that kids of friends get to use my first name. Kids of colleagues and strangers get to start with Mr. (or after next year, Rabbi), and call me by my first name after they ask permission, or I give it first. My high school students-- while they are my students-- call me Mr. or Rabbi, but after they are no longer in my class, they get to use my first name. But when I have taught college classes, even freshmen, I go by my first name. I'm there to help students learn, not inspire fear of my awesome decorum.

But as a general rule, I do not care for formality. I believe there are already enough barriers between people, and I don't care to make more via social etiquette. I like being easygoing and relaxed, and I like to hope others do also. I am a big believer in politeness and friendliness, but I don't see why they need to be accompanied by titles and stiff distinctions.

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biznatch

First off, if you've been in NYC on a busy day/time of day, you know you see dozens of people a minute. If you were to look them in the eye, share a nod with them, say hi, you would probably lose direction of where you're going.

If you're in a small town, (and this is not just the south) and you pass someone while walking on the sidewalk often enough that you recognize them, of course you acknowledge their presence with a smile/nod, or even say hi. I do this whenever I'm walking my dog, in suburbialand. I see my "neighbors" often enough that I want to be considered a well-raised, polite guy. It can pay off later.

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Xerxys

I have to say, I use "sir", "madam" and "please", "thankyou" simply because it takes zero effort for me to do so, is automatic, and I generally think that it makes the world easier to live in simply to be polite.

But on the other hand, I am a firm believer in ...

This.

Manners to me is a lady sitting not necessarily with her ankles crossed at an exact angle but at least with her legs together if she's wearing a belt for a skirt. Manners is not eating and stuffing your mouth. Manners is NOT TALKING WITH YOUR MOUTH FULL. I don't mind if you don't hold the door ... don't address me as "sir ... whatnot". These are fallacies.

I agree with gucci. You don't get respect simply because you lived longer than me ... I can also live ... all you have to do is eat. Not that hard. Old people often times complain about "These damn kids today" while every chance they get they shit on people who actually HAVE manners. They don't mess with someone who won't handle their shit, however.

My point is, why not treat everyone nicely but be polite and curt. That way, you mind only your business.

lostgirl

I think I have very good manners, I was taught well as a child. I just don't think many parents teach their children good manners in this day and age. I have no idea why, as it affects them too. Too many children run rampant and walk all over their parents.

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filtherton

I'm just wondering if Bill and Warrrrreagl say "PLEASE" before they yell "GET OFF MY LAWN YOU DAMN KIDS".

When I think of manners, I think of uncomfortably dressed rich folk with 12 different eating utensils, each with its own specific purpose.

When I have the opportunity, I teach my kids that respect is essential. I also want them to understand that manners and respect are two distinct concepts. Manners are for useful for conveying respect, even to people who don't really deserve it. Respect can exist without manners and manners frequently exist without respect. Sometime manners are meaningful, sometimes they're just a way to placate foolishness (yes sir, yes ma'am).

As for being scared to look city folk in the eye, well, perhaps if you folk were really so caught up in "respecting" other people with your "manners", you could get over your fear of city folk long enough to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Cynthetiq

Something I learned recently, my great grandfather sent all the women in the family to finishing school for 2 years. The men, were given the option of taking a liberal arts education first, then any degree desired, and university would be paid for. Decline the liberal arts, and your degree was on your dime.

My parents had Monday night formal dinner. We had to dress up, jacket and tie for the men, dress for the ladies. The dinner was served on the good china with the silverware and we ate in the formal dining room. We had multiple courses and we had wine with dinner. Coffee served with desert.

This was a bit strange at first since none of my friends did such a thing in their homes. But after a few months it was very comfortable. It was so comfortable that when it came time for date nights, I cooked on Friday nights and we ate in the formal dining room with the good china and I asked my date to be dressed. It saved some cash and after dinner maybe we'd go out or maybe we'd just retire to the living room and sit and talk.

This ritual got me interested in etiquette, and in my youth my copy of Amy Vanderbilt Complete Book of Etiquette was well worn.

Senior year in high school, we no longer had a religious studies class. It was for all intrinsic purposes a finishing class. We were taught how to shake hands. How to properly fold and address an envelope. How to greet people. How to life a life respecting others.

I remember when I was getting serious with Skogafoss, I did ask her if she would be interested in going to finishing school. She said she'd be interested in going, but it never materialized and I never asked again.

Now that I'm 40, I can't tell you how many times I go to events and people don't know how to act with the extra silverware or plates. They don't understand that you're to eat with your mouth closed, and should wipe your mouth before sipping from your glass (gross to see the coagulated oil from the steak or clarified lobster butter on the rim of glasses.) They don't understand that you shouldn't touch your food with your fingers, pushing those last grains of rice, corn, or peas with their thumbs.

Manners go beyond ma'am and sir. They go into simple protocols like eating food, greeting someone when you see them, good moring, good afternoon, good evening, or good night, or even having polite discussion and debate.

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warrrreagl

That's why the bulk of my loooong reply focused more on manners and etiquette in general instead of sir and ma'am. I feel very strongly, though, that if I had PM'd my list of etiquette to StrangeFamous and asked him to post it for me, it would have been better received. The stigma of "the South" turned a lot of people off right from the start.

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ring

"Where have all the manners gone, long time passing."

Social Codes. Look at the variety of ages, cultural and class expectations/experiences
in this thread alone.

I still do the knee jerk 'sir' thing, sometimes. (the respectful kind, not the passive-aggresive, snotty, 'sir')
My dad was an Officer in the Air Force.

I remember the constant effort of sitting up straight, I mean really straight -the elbow business- the proper fork - not interrupting the adults.
As a very young child, it would destroy my appetite. That amount of strictness
killed my taste for food. After I was sure mom and dad were asleep,
I would sneak down to the kitchen, open the refrigerator, and very very quietly,
wolf down some food - with my bare hands.

Please pass the salt. Excuse my reach.

When in Rome I guess. But there are so many Romes.

I remember the first time I lived in San Francisco. 1981
Two buses and a trolley it took, to arrive home.

It took a few whiles to get used to riding the 30 Stockton.
I let three buses go by before I figured out that that every body was elbowing
each other in the face to get on the bus.

How the heck was I going to push and shove this 4 foot 8, old chinese woman,
to get on the bus? It went against all of my earlier, 'training'.

Heh, that first time, I picked her up by the waist from behind and said "here,
we're both getting on the bus." She looked at me with momentary shock and then said:
"Hey, you crazy, you crazy good." Okay, I'm rambling...g'night.

Charlatan

Why stop at "old time Southern manners" why did we give up the codes of even older times? Let's harken back to the manners of proper society in ye olde England.

I can appreciate people being polite. But I rankle at specific and expected codes of conduct.

Gracious and polite is enough.

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ring

Gracious and polite, perhaps equals tolerance- cross culturally.

One instance- Somewhat anectodal:
When Is It Rude To Be Rude?

Charlatan

As someone who lives and works abroad, I can attest to the general accuracy of that article.

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jewels

While I totally agree that much of the disrespect is appalling, I believe I have an idea where some of it originates.

First of all, "sir" and "ma'am" is a more regional thing and I've personally always found it offensive.

The Mr./Mrs. thing: Some of us that grew up in the 60s and maybe 70s didn't enjoy being addressed as Mrs or even Ms, and when I divorced the guy, I sure as hell didn't want to be called Mrs anything. I think many kids grew up calling certain adults by their first name because of divorce or women who didn't want to see themselves as nothing more than a wife.

The rest, y'all know my stance by now. Many parents either overcoddle or aren't present. There are no rules or consequences, in many cases. Hopefully, someone will twitter about that and the rules will change when they're parenting.

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uncle phil

/me falls off chair...

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fresnelly

I think Crompsin is onto something here. This would be a good thing if we were all equal in the sense of brotherhood/sisterhood but in today's hyper-consumer culture we are all Customers.

And the Customer is always right.

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Martian

I spent some time trying to determine the proper avenue by which to enter this discussion. I could feel that there was a fundamental disconnect between my thought processes and the discourse occurring here. I think I have identified that, now, and will try my hand at explaining my views.

First off, there seems to be a conflation of respect with social markers. I can certainly understand that, as respect is what those markers were originally intended to convey; I would contend, however, that when these markers become the norm, their use does not indicate any inherent degree of respect, as it's simply a societal norm. Conversely, their absence may be an intentional gesture of disrespect; however, I would tend to assume that in most cases it's not deliberate but rather a simple ignorance of the custom.

An example. I'm going to use French, because it has readily apparent markers, and because I'm familiar with it; as the social norm when addressing a second party has already been outlined here, I hope everyone follows.

Imagine that I say to roachboy "vous avez une barbe magnifique." He would see nothing odd about this statement; It would simply be treated as a neutral statement. There's no inherent respect involved, and it doesn't convey anything regarding my feelings about him as a person -- the only thing that you can glean from the construction is that I'm aware of the social custom, and that I don't dislike him sufficiently to go out of my way by breaking social custom specifically to insult him.

Like GreyWolf, I was taught that usage of the second person singular form (tu) is disrespectful except in cases of particular intimacy, and since my relationship with roachboy, while friendly, is not particularly intimate, such usage would be inappropriate. It actually doesn't cross my mind in these situations, because the markers have been ingrained.

GreyWolf's children, on the other hand, were raised with a slightly different custom. It seems much like English, French is growing more informal as a language. Thus for one of GreyWolf's tykes to address roachboy (using the same sentence) with "tu as une barbe magnifique" would not be deliberately disrespectful. roachboy might parse it as disrespectful, but it's nothing more than a culture clash, at it's heart.

Part of the reason for my disconnect with this discussion is that it seems that a lot of people seem to treat respect as an absolute variable -- either you respect someone or you don't, and there's no degrees involved. As with most things, I don't see it as so clean cut. We could say that I treat everyone I meet with a certain base level of respect; I show them a degree of courtesy and friendliness that's intended to convey the sentiment 'I am operating under the assumption that you are basically a good and decent person, and you have not yet done or said anything to contradict that.' From there a person's words or actions will influence the level of respect I feel for them. I'm more likely to listen to or even actively seek the advice of someone I respect greatly, while someone I have very little respect for is likely to be scorned or ignored. In the middle we have that base level, where sits the majority of humanity; since I lack enough information about most people to make any further judgments on how worthy of my respect they are, they all end up at that mid-line -- respect neutral, if you will.

So what I really see this thread about is a discussion of the changing social customs and how some people feel maligned by that. Or, in some cases, it could also be a simple lack of cultural translation. Either way, it's not really tied to respect so much as a person's ability to follow 'the rules.' I've always sort of thought of these sorts of things as a ritual of exclusion. Someone who lacks the proper knowledge or upbringing to follow 'the rules' is an Outsider, deserving of scorn and contempt.

That sounds as though I'm being malicious or perhaps even biiter, but it's not really. Every group, every society and every culture or subculture has it's own set of Rules. This is part of what distinguishes one from the other. It's not necessarily good or bad; it's simply part of being human.

So to answer the original question -- the manners are still there, and some people have them while others do not. The catch is that you have to be willing to open up your definition of 'good manners' and be willing to accept that other cultures and groups will express them in a fashion very different from your own.

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