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Martian · 09-25-2009, 11:29 AM

I spent some time trying to determine the proper avenue by which to enter this discussion. I could feel that there was a fundamental disconnect between my thought processes and the discourse occurring here. I think I have identified that, now, and will try my hand at explaining my views.

First off, there seems to be a conflation of respect with social markers. I can certainly understand that, as respect is what those markers were originally intended to convey; I would contend, however, that when these markers become the norm, their use does not indicate any inherent degree of respect, as it's simply a societal norm. Conversely, their absence may be an intentional gesture of disrespect; however, I would tend to assume that in most cases it's not deliberate but rather a simple ignorance of the custom.

An example. I'm going to use French, because it has readily apparent markers, and because I'm familiar with it; as the social norm when addressing a second party has already been outlined here, I hope everyone follows.

Imagine that I say to roachboy "vous avez une barbe magnifique." He would see nothing odd about this statement; It would simply be treated as a neutral statement. There's no inherent respect involved, and it doesn't convey anything regarding my feelings about him as a person -- the only thing that you can glean from the construction is that I'm aware of the social custom, and that I don't dislike him sufficiently to go out of my way by breaking social custom specifically to insult him.

Like GreyWolf, I was taught that usage of the second person singular form (tu) is disrespectful except in cases of particular intimacy, and since my relationship with roachboy, while friendly, is not particularly intimate, such usage would be inappropriate. It actually doesn't cross my mind in these situations, because the markers have been ingrained.

GreyWolf's children, on the other hand, were raised with a slightly different custom. It seems much like English, French is growing more informal as a language. Thus for one of GreyWolf's tykes to address roachboy (using the same sentence) with "tu as une barbe magnifique" would not be deliberately disrespectful. roachboy might parse it as disrespectful, but it's nothing more than a culture clash, at it's heart.

Part of the reason for my disconnect with this discussion is that it seems that a lot of people seem to treat respect as an absolute variable -- either you respect someone or you don't, and there's no degrees involved. As with most things, I don't see it as so clean cut. We could say that I treat everyone I meet with a certain base level of respect; I show them a degree of courtesy and friendliness that's intended to convey the sentiment 'I am operating under the assumption that you are basically a good and decent person, and you have not yet done or said anything to contradict that.' From there a person's words or actions will influence the level of respect I feel for them. I'm more likely to listen to or even actively seek the advice of someone I respect greatly, while someone I have very little respect for is likely to be scorned or ignored. In the middle we have that base level, where sits the majority of humanity; since I lack enough information about most people to make any further judgments on how worthy of my respect they are, they all end up at that mid-line -- respect neutral, if you will.

So what I really see this thread about is a discussion of the changing social customs and how some people feel maligned by that. Or, in some cases, it could also be a simple lack of cultural translation. Either way, it's not really tied to respect so much as a person's ability to follow 'the rules.' I've always sort of thought of these sorts of things as a ritual of exclusion. Someone who lacks the proper knowledge or upbringing to follow 'the rules' is an Outsider, deserving of scorn and contempt.

That sounds as though I'm being malicious or perhaps even biiter, but it's not really. Every group, every society and every culture or subculture has it's own set of Rules. This is part of what distinguishes one from the other. It's not necessarily good or bad; it's simply part of being human.

So to answer the original question -- the manners are still there, and some people have them while others do not. The catch is that you have to be willing to open up your definition of 'good manners' and be willing to accept that other cultures and groups will express them in a fashion very different from your own.

09-25-2009, 11:29 AM	#40 (permalink)
Martian Young Crumudgeon Location: Canada	I spent some time trying to determine the proper avenue by which to enter this discussion. I could feel that there was a fundamental disconnect between my thought processes and the discourse occurring here. I think I have identified that, now, and will try my hand at explaining my views. First off, there seems to be a conflation of respect with social markers. I can certainly understand that, as respect is what those markers were originally intended to convey; I would contend, however, that when these markers become the norm, their use does not indicate any inherent degree of respect, as it's simply a societal norm. Conversely, their absence may be an intentional gesture of disrespect; however, I would tend to assume that in most cases it's not deliberate but rather a simple ignorance of the custom. An example. I'm going to use French, because it has readily apparent markers, and because I'm familiar with it; as the social norm when addressing a second party has already been outlined here, I hope everyone follows. Imagine that I say to roachboy "vous avez une barbe magnifique." He would see nothing odd about this statement; It would simply be treated as a neutral statement. There's no inherent respect involved, and it doesn't convey anything regarding my feelings about him as a person -- the only thing that you can glean from the construction is that I'm aware of the social custom, and that I don't dislike him sufficiently to go out of my way by breaking social custom specifically to insult him. Like GreyWolf, I was taught that usage of the second person singular form (tu) is disrespectful except in cases of particular intimacy, and since my relationship with roachboy, while friendly, is not particularly intimate, such usage would be inappropriate. It actually doesn't cross my mind in these situations, because the markers have been ingrained. GreyWolf's children, on the other hand, were raised with a slightly different custom. It seems much like English, French is growing more informal as a language. Thus for one of GreyWolf's tykes to address roachboy (using the same sentence) with "tu as une barbe magnifique" would not be deliberately disrespectful. roachboy might parse it as disrespectful, but it's nothing more than a culture clash, at it's heart. Part of the reason for my disconnect with this discussion is that it seems that a lot of people seem to treat respect as an absolute variable -- either you respect someone or you don't, and there's no degrees involved. As with most things, I don't see it as so clean cut. We could say that I treat everyone I meet with a certain base level of respect; I show them a degree of courtesy and friendliness that's intended to convey the sentiment 'I am operating under the assumption that you are basically a good and decent person, and you have not yet done or said anything to contradict that.' From there a person's words or actions will influence the level of respect I feel for them. I'm more likely to listen to or even actively seek the advice of someone I respect greatly, while someone I have very little respect for is likely to be scorned or ignored. In the middle we have that base level, where sits the majority of humanity; since I lack enough information about most people to make any further judgments on how worthy of my respect they are, they all end up at that mid-line -- respect neutral, if you will. So what I really see this thread about is a discussion of the changing social customs and how some people feel maligned by that. Or, in some cases, it could also be a simple lack of cultural translation. Either way, it's not really tied to respect so much as a person's ability to follow 'the rules.' I've always sort of thought of these sorts of things as a ritual of exclusion. Someone who lacks the proper knowledge or upbringing to follow 'the rules' is an Outsider, deserving of scorn and contempt. That sounds as though I'm being malicious or perhaps even biiter, but it's not really. Every group, every society and every culture or subculture has it's own set of Rules. This is part of what distinguishes one from the other. It's not necessarily good or bad; it's simply part of being human. So to answer the original question -- the manners are still there, and some people have them while others do not. The catch is that you have to be willing to open up your definition of 'good manners' and be willing to accept that other cultures and groups will express them in a fashion very different from your own. __________________ I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said - Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame