Where have all the manners gone? - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Charlatan · 09-25-2009, 04:02 PM

Being gracious and polite is simply a form of social lubrication. You may still disrespect someone internally (or more to the point have no opinion on the matter) but being polite keeps things moving.

MSD · 09-25-2009, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by warrrreagl

That's why the bulk of my loooong reply focused more on manners and etiquette in general instead of sir and ma'am. I feel very strongly, though, that if I had PM'd my list of etiquette to StrangeFamous and asked him to post it for me, it would have been better received. The stigma of "the South" turned a lot of people off right from the start.

You lost me when you tried to blame us for soccer.

GreyWolf · 09-28-2009, 03:06 AM

I agree with Martian's analysis of how changes in society can affect the overt display of respect.

But as many have pointed out, the question of manners goes beyond respect (and I didn't really comment on that earlier). Manners are the social oil by which we are able to interact with each other without resorting to violence. It's "please and thank you", it's thank-you notes for gifts, it's opening doors for women/older people/anyone with their arms full, it's using the right utensil at a formal dinner, it's the use of Sir, Ma'am, Officer, Mr., Mrs., etc. when appropriate, and a vast litany of other seemingly useless little customs that our parents (for those of us who are older, anyway) tried to drill into us. And annoying they were until we were on the other side of that parent/child divide.

And there does seem to be a general decline in the level of etiquette/manners practised by our society, mostly in the name of egality and convenience. And I do think we are poorer for it.

I'm not saying I have any solution other than I've tried with my children to instill in them the necessary manners to function in whatever situation they find themselves. I'm just commenting, and trying to point out that manners do encompass respect for others, but they also allow you to express your disrespect, dislike, or disapproval of someone else in a socially acceptable manner.

Bill O'Rights · 09-28-2009, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreyWolf

I've tried with my children to instill in them the necessary manners to function in whatever situation they find themselves.

How's that working out for you? Not to be a smartass...that's a serious question. I find that it's hard to teach a child that he needs to be respectful and polite, when the "Bart Simpsons" of the world get all of the attention and accolades. It seems a bit counter productive when I try teach him one thing, with the media, and the schoolyard, showing him something else entirely.

My grandmother used to say that; "It doesn't matter how many patches that you have on your britches. Soap is cheap, and manners are free."
Meaning that you could be as poor as a church mouse (whatever that means) but you could be clean and well mannered. Now, it seems, times have changed. Kids buy jeans, brand new, off the rack, with more holes in 'em than some old work jeans that I've thrown out. They are rude, crude and disrespectful. Grandma would take a switch to 'em. Yeah...times have changed.

snowy · 09-28-2009, 07:18 AM

My mother drilled politesse into me from birth, I think. I distinctly remember etiquette lessons with her wherein we would practice things like answering the phone politely and properly, as well as how to eat a meal correctly, etc. Due to my dad's career, it was expected that I would be able to engage with adults in a polite and respectful manner in a variety of situations, both formal and informal.

Saying things like "please" and "thank you" are just givens, in my opinion. However, using things like "yes sir" and "no ma'am" are not really givens; regionally, I think you'd come off as a smart ass trying to say that in the PacNW. We're a little more egalitarian in that respect.

I still use my manners on a daily basis, and I do my best to teach "the magic words" and other finer points of etiquette to the children in my care. The magic words, by the way, aren't just "please" and "thank you", but also "you're welcome", and "excuse me" or "pardon me." I had fun just over a week ago when my SO and I went for brunch at a nice place in Chicago and I got to trot out my fancy manners. I do enjoy that.

Cimarron29414 · 09-28-2009, 07:54 AM

Why do people no longer have manners? The internet.

Bill O'Rights · 09-28-2009, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snowy

I had fun just over a week ago when my SO and I went for brunch at a nice place in Chicago and I got to trot out my fancy manners. I do enjoy that.

That's a huge part of what I'm talking about. If I go to a "nice" restaurant, I want to enjoy the experience. I dress a little, or a lot, nicer, and I guess I expect others to do the same. I expect others to exhibit good, if not "proper" manners. A major part of my experience is others around me. When I go to McDonald's, I expect people to be dressed in t-shirts and jeans. I expect kids to be running rampant. I expect a less than stellar dining experience. That's not why I'm there. If I go to...say...an Applebee's, or even the Olive Garden, I expect something a little better. If I go to Mahogany's. or Gorat's, I expect something far better. Intead, it seems, I am subjected to just more of the same, from people who seem to believe that just because they have the money to pay their bill...it's all about them.

Plan9 · 09-28-2009, 07:58 AM

I completely agree with you, Bill. When I pay for a dinner cruise... I expect everybody to look good, be civil, and keep their kids at home.

mixedmedia · 09-28-2009, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

That's a huge part of what I'm talking about. If I go to a "nice" restaurant, I want to enjoy the experience. I dress a little, or a lot, nicer, and I guess I expect others to do the same. I expect others to exhibit good, if not "proper" manners. A major part of my experience is others around me. When I go to McDonald's, I expect people to be dressed in t-shirts and jeans. I expect kids to be running rampant. I expect a less than stellar dining experience. That's not why I'm there. If I go to...say...an Applebee's, or even the Olive Garden, I expect something a little better. If I go to Mahogany's. or Gorat's, I expect something far better. Intead, it seems, I am subjected to just more of the same, from people who seem to believe that just because they have the money to pay their bill...it's all about them.

I don't know that this conversation is really about manners here as much as it is the pervasive sense of entitlement that is so common now...it really is 'all about them,' for many, many people. And not only that, but they believe that's the way it should be. It's not so much not learning (being taught) manners as a sense that manners are some sort of self-divesting compromise.

warrrreagl · 09-28-2009, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

When I go to McDonald's, I expect people to be dressed in t-shirts and jeans. I expect kids to be running rampant. I expect a less than stellar dining experience. That's not why I'm there. If I go to...say...an Applebee's, or even the Olive Garden, I expect something a little better. If I go to Mahogany's. or Gorat's, I expect something far better. Intead, it seems, I am subjected to just more of the same, from people who seem to believe that just because they have the money to pay their bill...it's all about them.

Wait a minute - we're allowed to talk about kids in restaurants? Then s;sda;k maa;o8r;roghuhuaseu aweuo

*the above statement was censored by Grancey right before warrrreagl went off the deep end about kids in restaurants...

uncle phil · 09-28-2009, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crompsin

I completely agree with you, Bill. When I pay for a dinner cruise... I expect everybody to look good, be civil, and keep their kids at home.

i'll second that...

filtherton · 09-28-2009, 01:28 PM

That's funny, when I go out to dinner, I expect people to mind their own goddamn business and not go out of their way to be emotionally injured by my "I'm with stupid" shirt.

Plan9 · 09-28-2009, 01:34 PM

Situation-appropriate clothing = manners threadjack? Go:

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton

That's funny, when I go out to dinner, I expect people to mind their own goddamn business and not go out of their way to be emotionally injured by my "I'm with stupid" shirt.

Hey, that's fine if it's Denny's. Turns out people that wear aforementioned shirts rarely go to places that are $70/plate.

And you're not injuring anybody but yourself when you dress like a douchey college sophomore at a restaurant where better attire is the norm.

Keep in mind that this is coming from a guy that owns a tuxedo t-shirt and knows when and where donning it is appropriate.

...

Somehow I think a part of this thread represents the cranky middle class attempting to "Fight The Power!" by discrediting yesteryear's customs.

filtherton · 09-28-2009, 01:43 PM

But bill said soap is cheap and manners are free...

Really, though, I understand that this whole issue is the result of different subcultures having different expectations. And I also realize that we'd all be better off if instead of lamenting the unwashed others, we just worried about our own shit.

GreyWolf · 09-28-2009, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

How's that working out for you? Not to be a smartass...that's a serious question. I find that it's hard to teach a child that he needs to be respectful and polite, when the "Bart Simpsons" of the world get all of the attention and accolades.

Actually, quite well, although I would never know it at home. I have received unsolicited praise for the good behaviour and politeness of my children... from parents of friends, and from teachers and coaches. Does my heart good to know that I'm managing to pound something through their skulls, lol.

Bill O'Rights · 09-28-2009, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

It is [about] the pervasive sense of entitlement that is so common now...it really is 'all about them,' for many, many people. And not only that, but they believe that's the way it should be.

Exactly!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

It's not so much not learning (being taught) manners as a sense that manners are some sort of self-divesting compromise.

Mixedmedia...for the win!

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton

That's funny, when I go out to dinner, I expect people to mind their own goddamn business and not go out of their way to be emotionally injured by my "I'm with stupid" shirt.

As Crompsin noted below, that’s fine as long as you are at a Denny’s, or a McDonald’s, or anything along that line. When I go to an “expensive” restaurant, part of what I’m paying for is ambiance. Other patrons are a major part of that ambiance. In that sense, it really is my own business. I don’t wear a coat and tie when I’m having a plate of bacon and eggs at Joe’s Diner. It would be ridiculous and out of place. Just as much as t-shirts, jeans and ball caps are in Mahogany’s. And, really, if you’re paying for a nice restaurant, why wouldn’t you want to make it a little more special by dressing up a bit?

Glory's Sun · 09-28-2009, 03:50 PM

if you're paying for the food, do nicer clothes make the food taste better or something?

I might put on a collared shirt or something.. but if you look down on me because I'm not "appropriately" dressed instead of enjoying your dinner, then perhaps you should look at yourself and not worry so damn much about others. I cannot understand why people are so hung up on what other people are doing. Unless they are causing you harm, then what the fuck business is it of yours?

and yeah.. kids aren't supposed to be in public places

I can understand the quieter more adult oriented places but most places call themselves family chains..and last I checked kids are part of that whole family process.

filtherton · 09-28-2009, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

As Crompsin noted below, that’s fine as long as you are at a Denny’s, or a McDonald’s, or anything along that line. When I go to an “expensive” restaurant, part of what I’m paying for is ambiance. Other patrons are a major part of that ambiance. In that sense, it really is my own business. I don’t wear a coat and tie when I’m having a plate of bacon and eggs at Joe’s Diner. It would be ridiculous and out of place. Just as much as t-shirts, jeans and ball caps are in Mahogany’s. And, really, if you’re paying for a nice restaurant, why wouldn’t you want to make it a little more special by dressing up a bit?

I feel as though you've manufactured a situation that doesn't really happen. If the restaurant doesn't have a dress code then you aren't really paying for ambiance, in which case, you're just being judgmental and uptight. The other side of that is that if the restaurant does have a dress code, then you won't see people wearing clothes that make you feel uncomfortable, which is nice if that's your thing.

I mean, don't get me wrong. I enjoy dressing up in nice clothing. It just doesn't bother me all that much when people fail to live up to my fashion standards so I have a difficult time relating to your concerns.

Plan9 · 09-28-2009, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guccilvr

if you're paying for the food, do nicer clothes make the food taste better or something?

*palmface from 800 feet AGL*

Some people like dressing up. I know, I know... they're a dying breed.

ZOMG, I went on a date dressed like that. I must be a really self-important prick, huh?

Glory's Sun · 09-28-2009, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crompsin

*palmface from 800 feet AGL*

Some people like dressing up. I know, I know... they're a dying breed.

I get that some people like dressing up.. that's cool. I have no problem with that.. just wondering why people are so concerned that someone else does not like dressing up.

all this talk of manners and entitlement is making the ones who claim to have manners et al look very silly and elitist. That doesn't really seem like a mannerly thing to do. In fact, I think if people had manners and the respect that's floating in this thread, they would just butt out of other peoples lives and focus on their own shit.

---------- Post added at 07:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:56 PM ----------

and yes. we all know you are a self-centered asshole already

uncle phil · 09-28-2009, 03:59 PM

i love you, cromp...

yeah, i know, she's got more hair than i do...

filtherton · 09-28-2009, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

I don't know that this conversation is really about manners here as much as it is the pervasive sense of entitlement that is so common now...it really is 'all about them,' for many, many people. And not only that, but they believe that's the way it should be.

I read this completely differently than bill because I include bill and war in the group of people suffering from a pervasive sense of entitlement and misguided notions of how things should be.

mixedmedia · 09-28-2009, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton

I read this completely differently than bill because I include bill and war in the group of people suffering from a pervasive sense of entitlement and misguided notions of how things should be.

just for the record, I'm not commenting on what people eat at dinner...

filtherton · 09-28-2009, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crompsin

Somehow I think a part of this thread represents the cranky middle class attempting to "Fight The Power!" by discrediting yesteryear's customs.

I do know how much some folk miss the days of olde when a man could wear an onion in his belt without drawing a second glance...

That being said, I lack the debt required to be middle class and I appreciate yesteryear's customs a great deal more than I do people whining about how no one appreciates them anymore. They think they have it rough? My generation is the last generation before the onset of ubiquitous cell phones and internet. I'm going to have much more annoying things to lament when I hit AARP eligible.

Plan9 · 09-28-2009, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton

I read this completely differently than bill because I include bill and war in the group of people suffering from a pervasive sense of entitlement and misguided notions of how things should be.

People that think differently!? Fire the missiles! Turns out every older generation comments on how the younger generation is full of shit. Every younger generation comments on how the older generation is a bunch of stuffy coots. I'm down with it... as I should be: I'm a big throbbing part of it.

The verbal courtship or yesteryear has become the verbal judo of today. Everybody is busy-busy-busy-get-outta-my-way. I know that I am... it saddens me.

I would be honored to be counted among the Old Coot ranks of Bill and Warr. That'd be gnarly. I can't wait to yell, "You damn kids get off my lawn!"

mixedmedia · 09-29-2009, 02:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

just for the record, I'm not commenting on what people eat at dinner...

jesus...what I meant to say was:

I'm not commenting on what people wear at dinner

like (I think) filtherton said earlier, if the restaurant is that swank there will be a dress code...otherwise, it's really none of my concern what people wear in a restaurant...it never even occurred to me

of course, I live in Florida...this is where people come specifically to dress like bums everyday, lol.

Plan9 · 09-29-2009, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

jesus...what I meant to say was:

I'm not commenting on what people wear at dinner

"Hey, this isn't the I Hate Veal thread! Get it right."

09-25-2009, 04:02 PM	#41 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Being gracious and polite is simply a form of social lubrication. You may still disrespect someone internally (or more to the point have no opinion on the matter) but being polite keeps things moving. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

09-28-2009, 03:06 AM	#43 (permalink)
GreyWolf Sober Location: Eastern Canada	I agree with Martian's analysis of how changes in society can affect the overt display of respect. But as many have pointed out, the question of manners goes beyond respect (and I didn't really comment on that earlier). Manners are the social oil by which we are able to interact with each other without resorting to violence. It's "please and thank you", it's thank-you notes for gifts, it's opening doors for women/older people/anyone with their arms full, it's using the right utensil at a formal dinner, it's the use of Sir, Ma'am, Officer, Mr., Mrs., etc. when appropriate, and a vast litany of other seemingly useless little customs that our parents (for those of us who are older, anyway) tried to drill into us. And annoying they were until we were on the other side of that parent/child divide. And there does seem to be a general decline in the level of etiquette/manners practised by our society, mostly in the name of egality and convenience. And I do think we are poorer for it. I'm not saying I have any solution other than I've tried with my children to instill in them the necessary manners to function in whatever situation they find themselves. I'm just commenting, and trying to point out that manners do encompass respect for others, but they also allow you to express your disrespect, dislike, or disapproval of someone else in a socially acceptable manner. __________________ *The secret to great marksmanship is deciding what the target was AFTER you've shot.* Last edited by GreyWolf; 09-28-2009 at 03:26 AM..

09-28-2009, 07:18 AM	#45 (permalink)
snowy Kick Ass Kunoichi Location: Oregon	My mother drilled politesse into me from birth, I think. I distinctly remember etiquette lessons with her wherein we would practice things like answering the phone politely and properly, as well as how to eat a meal correctly, etc. Due to my dad's career, it was expected that I would be able to engage with adults in a polite and respectful manner in a variety of situations, both formal and informal. Saying things like "please" and "thank you" are just givens, in my opinion. However, using things like "yes sir" and "no ma'am" are not really givens; regionally, I think you'd come off as a smart ass trying to say that in the PacNW. We're a little more egalitarian in that respect. I still use my manners on a daily basis, and I do my best to teach "the magic words" and other finer points of etiquette to the children in my care. The magic words, by the way, aren't just "please" and "thank you", but also "you're welcome", and "excuse me" or "pardon me." I had fun just over a week ago when my SO and I went for brunch at a nice place in Chicago and I got to trot out my fancy manners. I do enjoy that. __________________ If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

09-28-2009, 07:54 AM	#46 (permalink)
Cimarron29414 Still Free Location: comfortably perched at the top of the bell curve!	Why do people no longer have manners? The internet. __________________ Gives a man a halo, does mead. "Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

09-28-2009, 07:58 AM	#48 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	I completely agree with you, Bill. When I pay for a dinner cruise... I expect everybody to look good, be civil, and keep their kids at home. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."

09-28-2009, 01:28 PM	#52 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	That's funny, when I go out to dinner, I expect people to mind their own goddamn business and not go out of their way to be emotionally injured by my "I'm with stupid" shirt.

09-28-2009, 01:43 PM	#54 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	But bill said soap is cheap and manners are free... Really, though, I understand that this whole issue is the result of different subcultures having different expectations. And I also realize that we'd all be better off if instead of lamenting the unwashed others, we just worried about our own shit. Last edited by filtherton; 09-28-2009 at 01:45 PM..

09-28-2009, 03:50 PM	#57 (permalink)
Glory's Sun Registered User	if you're paying for the food, do nicer clothes make the food taste better or something? I might put on a collared shirt or something.. but if you look down on me because I'm not "appropriately" dressed instead of enjoying your dinner, then perhaps you should look at yourself and not worry so damn much about others. I cannot understand why people are so hung up on what other people are doing. Unless they are causing you harm, then what the fuck business is it of yours? and yeah.. kids aren't supposed to be in public places I can understand the quieter more adult oriented places but most places call themselves family chains..and last I checked kids are part of that whole family process.

09-28-2009, 03:59 PM	#61 (permalink)
uncle phil comfortably numb... Super Moderator Location: upstate	i love you, cromp... yeah, i know, she's got more hair than i do... __________________ "We were wrong, terribly wrong. (We) should not have tried to fight a guerrilla war with conventional military tactics against a foe willing to absorb enormous casualties...in a country lacking the fundamental political stability necessary to conduct effective military and pacification operations. It could not be done and it was not done." - Robert S. McNamara ----------------------------------------- "We will take our napalm and flame throwers out of the land that scarcely knows the use of matches... We will leave you your small joys and smaller troubles." - Eugene McCarthy in "Vietnam Message" ----------------------------------------- never wrestle with a pig. you both get dirty; the pig likes it.